Forbes says Rays made $29.7-million last year; team officials dispute report

The Tampa Bay Rays are one of Major League Baseball's least valuable franchises, but the team still made a nearly $30-million profit last year, according to a recent Forbes examination of the finances of Major League Baseball's 30 teams.

In fact, according to Forbes, only four teams made more money than the Rays -- the Washington Nationals, New York Mets, Chicago White Sox, and Florida Marlins.

On the flip side, Forbes pegs the value of the Rays franchise at $290-million -- up eight percent from last year, but still 29th in Major League Baseball.

This news came out a couple of weeks back, but since we didn't have a blog then, we didn't have a place to post it. The Rays, and all of Major League Baseball, say the Forbes rankings are inaccurate, because they fail to account for some of the team's debt payments and other expenses.

Rays officials say they have actually lost between $20-million and $30-million since 2005, and are expecting to lose money again this season. You can see the full Forbes analysis here.

(We asked the Rays if they would be willing to open their books for our examination; they have so far declined).

Comments

[Thomas]

I am NOT a PAID Blogger, Rays employee or POWW member. I have never commented in this paper before. I live in Old Northeast and I have been taking my wife and two boys ages 3 and 4 to games for three years, over 175 games in all. I have been a Rays season ticket holder since I moved here. People and their personal agendas aside, WE don't support the team or the stadium WE have. If the stadium and its air conditioning is so great, why don't YOU attend more often. YOU say it is because they don't have a winning team or increase team payroll. The Rays payroll increased more than 175% since their 2005 season ending payroll of $17 million, the greatest increase percentage over 18 months in MLB history by far. Discuss these FACTS:

2001
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 62-100
Rays Average Attendance - 16,029
Pittsburgh Pirates Record - 62-100
Pirates Average Attendance - 30,742

2002
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 55-106
Rays Average Attendance - 13,157
Milwaukee Brewers Record - 56-106
Brewers Average Attendance - 24,310

2003
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 63-99
Rays Average Attendance - 13,070
Cleveland Indians Record - 68-94
Indians Average Attendance - 21,358

2004
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 70-91
Rays Average Attendance - 16,139
Seattle Mariners Record - 63-99
Mariners Average Attendance - 36,305

2005
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 67-95
Rays Average Attendance - 14,502
Detroit Tigers Record - 71-91
Tigers Average Attendance - 25,306

2006
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 61-101
Rays Average Attendance - 16,910
Baltimore Orioles Record - 62-100
Orioles Average Attendance - 30,742

2007
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 66-96
Rays Average Attendance - 17,148
Houston Astros Record - 73-89
Astros Average Attendance - 30,742

2008 Year to Date
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 14-12
Rays Average Attendance - 18,867
Pittsburgh Pirates Record - 12-16
Pirates Average Attendance - 33,824

2001 - 2007
Tampa Bay Rays Avg. Record - 62-100
Rays Average Attendance - 16,029
Seven Cities Avg. Record - 66-96
Seven Cities Avg. Attendance - 30,742

If we could average what Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Seattle, Detroit, Baltimore did in attendance of which no team mentioned has won a World Series since the Rays inception as well, (Pittsburgh last won in 1979, Baltimore in 1983, Detroit in 1984, Cleveland 1948, Seattle and Milwaukee are still waiting for their first), all with similar losing records AND a new ballpark having been built, with the average attendee spending a gross of $43.00 per person per event, (Dining, Parking, Tickets, Apparel, Drinks ECT...) it would translate into more than 1/3 of a billion dollars (13,628 avg. attendance Difference x 81 games x 7 years x $43 per attendee = $355,533,947.19 to be exact) in additional consumer spending and taxes downtown over the next 7 years. That is more than 30 downtown bars and restaurants with $1.5 million average in annual sales COMBINED and TOTALLED over 7 Years.

The same number hypothetically would work with Tropicana Field as well, but without the additional year round economic stimulus of redevelopment for the current Tropicana Field site. If WE support the team where it is, then WE have a right to complain about change, unless the change WE want is for the Rays to leave. Leaving St. Pete or Florida entirely would not be the fault of the rays. It would be the lackluster support of US as fans.

And as to PARKING, free enterprise will take care of that to be sure. The minute we break ground people will be falling over each others to get into the parking business. (5000 cars x 81 games x $15 per car x 10 years totals $60,750,000 in parking revenue alone, not counting land / retail value or air rights) I think this income and investment potential will more than motivate private investors (even the Rays) to build parking more than sufficient for the game and further supplementing our downtown parking needs.

Do I want a new stadium? - YES
Do I think the Rays should pay their fair share? – YES
Do I believe that they would be willing to spend more if they had a better indication that WE would support them as well? YES
Do I think that integrity and honesty ARE important factors to the new majority ownership group and its senior management, as well as its choices in player personnel? ABSOLUTELY
Do I think that this would be a great, once in a generation opportunity for US to lose? YES
Can WE work TOGETHER to figure out how to get it done and mitigate taxation expense while figuring out how to MAXIMIZE community benefits, taxable revenue, stimulate consumer and tourist spending, create jobs, enhance both regional and Saint Petersburg’s quality of life and expand national visibility? TO BE DETERMINED

I know who you are "Thomas", and I know that Aaron can check the IP address associated with your post and previous post by other "bloggers" to see exactly what I mean.

[Cantie]

GOOD! Then let them circle YOUR street looking for those NEW WONDERFUL parking garages that are goingto be built - oh! Wait! Where did you say they were going to be built? Oh yea! You didn't mention that in your diatribe! I too livein Old NE and I personally could care less if the Rays left tomorrow and went to China. This city is TOO SMALL to host a gigantic waterfront enterprise like the one that's being proposed. We all know it and if and after its built so will YOU and your family when tens of thousands of drivers are circling around these narrow 1 and two lane roads looking for parking and trying to get in and out of the city. The only reason you wrote that is because you are a fan of baseball. You have not a single concern over what this could do to the neighborhoods of St. Petersburg - ESPECIALLY to Old NE!!! Think for a minute about what our streets in Old NE look like during a small event like Blues Fest! There are bikers and vehicles EVERYWHERE. Parked on corners, parked illegally all over the place!

[get-smart]

Tommy - If I don't go to the A/C Trop why on 'Al Lang's Green Acre' would I go to an un-A/C stadium? Maybe you and AAron can take the temp and humidity readings together. Your kids will probably be squirming in their seat saying " I'm HOT Daddy ... I'm Hot Daddy, .. can we go home?"
Take you numbers and stick-it. Here is why I don't support the new stadium:
For one, I don't care to further enrich these greedy NY Goldman Sacks investment bankers who became wealthy by aiding and abetting the outsourcing of our American jobs to China. I also don't care to fill in the bay. Plus I don't care to disrupt the tranquility of the city with this virtual Mega Boom Box.
So how do your numbers jive with that! .. Tommy Boy - Have a nice Day!

[Those who envy people with money]

Waaah ....
"we don't want to line anyone's pockets!"
"They must have done something wrong to come into all that money!"

"i'll support them when they win 100 games a year and not a second before"

keep the excuses coming LOSERS

[Don Mott]

Five words Thomas; Pie In The Sky Dreams. All of those numbers and predictions make for a great soundbite but are not based on facts or reality.

[Kyle]

Cantie- I could care less what the new stadium will do or not do for/to your neighborhood. I'm not gonna vote for it whether you love it or hate it.

[Cantie]

Did I mention that I don't want anyone parked on my block?
I hate traffic!
I hate people!
I hate my own pathetic life and will probably move to Hoot Owl, OK or Lost Springs,WY so that I can avoid contact with people!

[Chuck]

Kylie Minogue aka Kyle -

As long as you "could" care less then I guess you don't really have a problem.

If you want to talk about Pie In The Sky Dreams Don let's talk about using public money to fix the "issues" in South St. Pete.

[Jay]

Thomas,

All you did was cut and paste your post from a previous blog, so I'm not sure how it applies to this topic - but then again, it didn't apply to the last one either.

What is the one thing that all those teams you mentioned have in common? They all are centered around a downtown area, that has access to mass transportation. Tropicana Field, and Al Lang Stadium for that matter, have none. The PSTA is a joke even without the load of a baseball game, so should they develop a hub, or a central station, it would still be inadequate.

Your vision of "free market" for parking is equally unrealistic, and smells strongly Business School naivety. All those people who suddenly get into the parking lot business, do nothing to stimulate the local economy, and contribute nothing but bare, open patches of land in an otherwise crowded parking area. You've obviously never tried parking downtown during First Friday, Blues Fest, or even a regular Saturday night - there's no parking to be found. Add an additional 16,000 people crammed into the area, and your brisk 10 to 15 minute walk seems more like an expedition through an urban swamp. Plus, all those high rise condos that just went up, and start around 500k? They don't want to stare at parking lots, parking structures, or gridlock from their overpriced balconies. Another bidding war for the limited land in the area will actually make parking even MORE expensive, because the land itself would be more profitable to developers, not private owners. They want higher profits that you don't get with a parking lot that will sit vacant for most of the year.

All that aside, the primary reason why Tropicana has failed to bring any residual businesses to the area is because the way it is designed has created a no-mans land all around the property. To the East? A storage facility and a hospice. To the West? The interstate and a bunch of abandoned industrial areas. North? Failing small businesses that receive no foot traffic from the field. To the South? More interstate, and Bayfront Hospital. No matter what direction you turn, there is NOTHING supporting the dome, because there's no reason to, and no way to. All that land for parking would have been better served with a structure, a mass transportation hub (that goes across the bay, into North Pinellas, and towards the beaches / south side). I'm not saying put an International Mall type structure there, but SOMETHING that will draw year round traffic, and a way to adequately transport them to and from the area. Until St. Pete can realize that relying on car traffic alone will be the death of downtown, they'll never be able to draw crowds to ANY game, no matter where it's played.

[Don in St. Pete]

Thomas, You want the Rays to average 34,000 fans, move the stadium to Westshore Plaza or the Toytown Landfill. I can tell you having hear pesonally from hundreds of Ray season ticketholders including my Mom, they they have no intention of fighting the gridlock and trying to find parking downtown. Attnendance would actually go down if a downtown stadium id built.

[Andy]

Thomas,

Way to cherry pick teams and years. Now for some other FACTS:

2001 was Pittsburg's first year in PNC Park. Since then, they have fallen all the way to 27th (Out of 30) in baseball in attentance (2007).

2002 was Milwaukee's second year in a beautiful new stadium. But by the very next year, their failure to put a winning product on the field dropped them all the way to 25th in attendance.

The 2003 Indians were only 2 years removed from a division championship. Comparing them to the 2003 Rays is just silly.

The 2004 Mariners had won 93 games the previous season and finished second in their division. Again, ridiculous comparison.

The 2007 Astros were just 2 years removed from a World Series appearance, had finished .500 the previous year, and were considered legit contenders going into 2007. Something tells me their fans thought they had a little more to look forward to than ours did.

The Lesson: If you build it, they will come, but only for a year or two. The only way to keep fannies in the seats is by a strong commitment to winning. The new owenrship group has taken steps no doubt, but they still have a long way to go.

And yes, I'm glad the team has increased payroll, but their payroll is still 29th out of 30 MLB teams. Prior to their "historic" payroll increase, they were at a historically low salary level (mostly due to the sale of the team).

[Don's Mom in St. Pete]

No way will I drive those extra 6 blocks and have to possibly walk an extra block in that hot sun!

[Raymond the Rays Mascot]

Hey Andy, Thomas is just staing the facts & the truth, you just can't handle the truth.

[Don's father in St. Pete]

I thought my son had more common sense than that, I sure didn't bring him up this way. I'll take him and his mother to see the Rays play in our new bayfront stadium, no worries, I'll drop them off @the waterfront door.

I brought him into this world & I can take him out if he doesn't support this wonderful redevelopment proposal.

L8r, the Rays are on TV and they're winning, see ya gotta go, can't miss anymore exciting action!

[Thomas]

Andy,

Glad now we are talking FACTS.

Pittsburgh averaged 19,777 form 1990 till 2000 in Three Rivers Stadium over 11 years. They have averaged 22,643 since opening PNC Park in 2001 even with ALL losing seasons and a town with a bad regional economy, significant population aging and loss, and a substantial ticket price increase from the old park. That is still a 2,867 average attendance per game increase at 14.49% with bad circumstances.

Milwaukee aneraged 19,070 at Municipal county stadium from 1990 till 2000. They have averaged 28,146 in the 7 years since having never made the playoffs and last year being theiw first winning season at the new park. That is 9,076 more average attendance over 7 years at 47.59%

The Indians old park, Cleveland Municipal, averaged 14,402 from 1980 till 1993. Jacobs Field has AVERAGED 33,101 over the last FOURTEEN years. They have not won the world series since 1948, have both great weather and a most strong economy with people moving to Cleveland in droves. (Sad that is not true, Cleveland is really a great town) This represents a 14,402 average per gate increase with the new stadium over 14 years at an increase of 129.84%.

Seattle and their old stadium the Kingdome averaged 24,577 since 1990 till it was imploded in 1998. Safeco field has been averaging 33,265 since July of 1998 when it made its debut. That is 8,689 more than the Kingdome representing an increase of 35.35%

The Astros averaged 22,118 at the Astrodome from 1990 till Minutemade Park debuted in 2000. The new stadium has averaged 35,225 SINCE its opening with several horrible seasons and never having won a world series. That is a 13,107 and 59.26% increase AVERAGED since 2000.

What exectly was I Cherry picking. Similar stories exist in San Diego, Atlanta, Detroit, Texas, Philadelphia and San Francisco. Heck, everywhere they buil a NEW stadium.

Are there parking issues? Yes
Can they be solved? Yes
Do the Rays want to make more money? For sure. I don't know any business owner that doesn't. I can't say one PROMISE that the Rays made to the community that they haven't kept. Trouble players with attitude, GONE. Payroll increase, YES. (I admit they still have a low payroll relative to there division and most of the rest of baseball.)Do I beleive that they will spend payroll relative to future income and value? Yes. Look what 126 million for a Barry Zito can get you. Could thay have signed Barry Bonds for a relatively low number, putting seats in the stands disrupting positive team chemistry? Absolutely. Did They? NO.

Let's discuss facts and solutions.

[Richard]

Cantie - Old NE residents block off their streets to assure the great unwashed come no where near their million dollar landscapes and precious pocket poodles. This includes the folks on 4,000 dollar bicycles who attend the Triathalon.

Cantie - you are a snob. Personally I'd like to cut Old NE off from the rest of the city and drop most (not all) of you into the bay.

[Richard the Bum]

I'm still pissed that Cantie started putting locks on the garbage cans. Where's a fella to eat?

Oops .. gotta go ... librarian is coming ...

[Simon]

Baseball sucks. It's the most boring game around. Golf is more exciting and I wouldn't support a waterfront golf course in downtown St. Pete and I certainly, 100% won't support a mega baseball stadium there either. Heck, I'm a hardcore football fan and I wouldn't support a football stadium anywhere in St. Pete. Downtown St. Pete is beautiful and charming. That's a big reason why many visitors come here, not for sports. Oh, I should state I am a resident of St. Pete (not Old NE), not a snowbird, not a blogger, not anything but a person that cares deeply about the character and charm of downtown St. Pete. The Trop location is fine. Either keep it as-is and repair it or rebuild it with a sweet retractable roof to satisfy everyone's climate needs. But the Rays should stay there. Period.

Simon

[Rays Supporter No More]

Nice of "Thomas" to provide us with some meaningless comparisons. However, the bottom line is this: The Rays have consistently been unwilling to spend to put an exciting product on the field, and a new stadium is not going to change that. The current stadium is not a destination -- it's a lifeless building stuck in the middle of an empty space.

Moving the stadium to the waterfront will only benefit the owners, who have no vested interest in bringing a winning team to this area when they already have the 4th most profitable MLB franchise.

The Rays are free to leave town at any time -- they wouldn't be missed.

[TruthDetector]

I strongly "Rays Supporter No More" is not being truthful.