Let the show begin

Welcome to Ballpark Frankness, tampabay.com's newest blog. If you couldn't figure it out, we'll be here talking about the Tampa Bay Rays' $450-million proposal to build a waterfront ballpark in downtown St. Petersburg.

The plan for this blog is simple. We're hoping to have three or so posts a day, some fun, some serious. We'll launch a poll every once in awhile, keep track of the temperature and humidity outside and spend days trying to find a place to park. We'll solicit your input along with the thoughts of the Rays and POWW and whoever else may have something to say.

This blog also will be the one place where we post the news of the day related to the stadium debate. And sometimes, we'll give you a peek of what we're working on for tomorrow's paper edition (No secret negotiations here)!

And we'll be here until November, or at least until we stop talking about a new stadium.

The only ground rule: let's try to keep things civil. Don't attack the people, attack the ideas.

So with that out of the way, let's play ball!

Comments

[Jake]

St. Pete shouldn't build the Rays a new stadium. The Rays are terrible and everybody knows they will never win games; they should be forced to build a stadium in Hillsborough County where only 40% of the season ticket holders live.

Again St. Pete shouldnt have to deal with a team named the Tampa Bay Rays and their losing ways. That burden should fall on Hillsborough County and their tax payers.

-signed
Ray's Season ticket holder leaving in Hillsborough County.

[pta]

I live downtown and couldn't get a parking spot at Publix during a spring training game that only drew 7000. What's going to stop people going to the game from taking every single available parking spot within a mile? Also, the revenue projections for the re-development of the existing site are being projected for 35 years but the current stadium didn't live up to it's projections. Why should we buy another set of inflated numbers? There has to be some kind of accountability and consequnces for not meeting projections. Finally, are the Rays willing to commit to a $100 million payroll to field a truly competitive team? If not, then it's all a waste of time, money and available downtown space!

[Chris Jenkins]

What? The blog has been up for a couple of hours, and I don't see Guy, Chuck, Thor, JustMe, Justin, Lorraine, or ANYONE here yet.

Slackers!

[Biff]

Why don't you get off your lazy rear and bike it to the game? I put my bike on the bike rack which is on my car. I then drive to a neighborhood near the stadium. Then bike to Ferg's eat. After which, I bike to the stadium. There are numerous places to lock up your bike. Walla' no parking issue. I find it pathetic that there are so many people out there who don't want to put forth any effort for anything. These are the same people that complain about the heat, but instead of wearing a tank top, flip flops and shorts, they wear clothes suited for a warm climate and then complain about the heat. Why are the amusement parks so busy during the summer? They aren't inside? the same with all of the beaches. People seem to like the heat in those venues but sing a different tune when it comes to a ballgame. They forget that most of the Rays games would be in the evening and the seats would be S-H-A-D-E-D..Wake up and vote YES!!!

[Jennifer]

Unfortunately, I have only attended a couple of Ray games since I have been in Florida. However, I have never understood why a city would want to spend so much money on a new stadium if the old stadium works just fine.

If the Rays were a winning team that was generating revenue for the city on a yearly basis, maybe, but sadly the Rays are a mediocre team that is not winning games.

I am sure that the City of St Pete could think of other things that would be more worthwhile to spend millions of dollars on.

[Jimbo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm getting here, Chris. I figured I'd wait until they'd show up before I started ;-)

[Chuck]

Hello!

Thank you very much Jake, that is the single best argument I've heard against the stadium since I've been reading these blogs. Please go around and tell everyone you meet why the Rays shouldn't build a new stadium in EXACTLY those words. Fight the good fight my brother.

Here's something interesting, twice in as many days I've heard national media (ESPN Baseball Tonight and an online chat with ESPN columnist Bill Simmons) mention "The Rays new ballpark that will be ready in 2012."

Talk about underestimating the kooks!

[Nick]

This is an awesome idea and anyone that actually follows baseball would realize that the lowly Tampa Bay Rays are in 1st place. What does that mean to all of the naysayers that said that if the Rays started to win that they would think about it. Well guess what it's time to start thinking about investing in this team and in this city. What else are we going to do with the old dilapidated minor league park since we have no tennant for it? Should we just let it deteriorate and have it become and Eye sore for the bayfront tower folks that live there for a whole 3 months a year? We need to become a major league city and we can't without ponying up some cash and building a stadium that others will be jealous of. Also for the previous comment about spending money on a team to win a championship.... Have you heard of the Yankees and the 1 Billion that they have spent in the past five years and how many world series trophy's do they have during that time. Thats right none. How many do the Marlins have that have consistently had one of the lowest payrolls in Baseball during that same time .... that's right 1. So case in point Money doesn't buy championships it's the players and fans that support their teams through the thick and thin and rally together as a community that win championships.

Peace, Love, Recycle

[A.M.]

Booooo... do not build the ballpark!!!! It's such a waste of money and waterfront space!

[Jay]

I'm still curious, and have yet to be answered on why, this new stadium has to be built on a site that is much smaller, and has less parking. What is wrong with building the new stadium in the existing location?

Because it's not near the water?

Is there a measurable amount of cool breeze that comes off of the bay (going east to west) to make the new location significantly cooler in temperature?

If the proposal to redevelop the existing stadium location banks upon the marketability of new shopping and other attractions, then why not just integrate that into the existing architecture instead of keeping it a no-man's land as it stands now?

In short, I'm just asking why is the Al Lang stadium location so much better than the current Tropicana Field one?

[Chuck]

These n00b arguments aren't going to keep my attention. Step up your game and start insulting the people who disagree with you or I'm out of here.

Another note to stadium debater neophytes - don't come here trying to sway someone else's opinion, just make fun of them.

Here's how it works:

Stadium Supporters: "Baby killing right wing nuts that drive around in Junk For Jesus trucks and hunt manatees on the weekends."

Stadium detractors: "Filthy hippies that would rather spend millions on welfare programs and government poverty research."

Pick a side and fight!

[A.M.]

I think you have proposed several valid questions, Jay... and I think those questions deserve answers. I was so proud of the St. Petersburg Mayor for finally coming out and saying that he refuses to support the plan unless they come up with LOTS more parking... and that'll never happen!

[Steve]

Let's build it! The owners have done a tremendous job in turning this organization around for the better in just 2 years. The Rays are having a great year and experts predict this team will keep getting better with the plethora of highly talented youn players. The Rays will need revenue to keep this team strong when the youngsters turn into stars and demand the big bucks. Plus Al Lang is an empty stadium. Should we just let it rot? Hell no, let's showcase St. Pete and build this beautiful stadium! New stadiums have been proven to create a new energy, enthusiam and help business in the community. We are in desperate need of that here as this city is a ghost town. Let's move into the 21st century. Be proud to have a major leage team. Let's make it a Major League Downtown! GO RAYS!

[Keep the Trop!]

Tropicana Field is a great baseball stadium where locals as well as visitors LOVE to attend games: it's easy to get to, there's plenty of parking including surrounding areas, AND it's air conditioned! Spectators will be forced to pay more for parking in the new lot...where else in that area will they be able to park for more than 90 minutes? Not to mention the traffic getting in and out of there...

[Jake]

PTA - Yes, the Ray's need a $100million roster to be competive. Our $46 million roster is no comparison to last years NL Champs $52 million roster, or Cleveland's $50 million roster when they knocked the Yankee's out of the AL playoffs.

Again St. Pete doesnt want to build a stadium and they shouldn't. They aren't a major league city and they shouldn't have to make sacrifices to become one. Let Hillsborough County deal with this problem; I am more than willing to pay a little more in taxes to move the team to an area where 40% of the season ticket holders live and there is a bigger interest in baseball..."A thinking man's game".

[Jimbo]

While I like Steve's enthusiasm, I think he's a little overboard w/"ghost town", and not every supporter think the city's a "ghost town". I, for one, love to come downtown whenever possible and take in the scene, both day and night!

Adding the new field right where baseball has been for almost 100 years will enhance the downtown core. It will help the city grow into its own identity since people from around the country will see our city in a whole new light. And, unlike what I read on another article, it will not fill in "acres" of the bay. We're talking 26,136 square feet (give or take 100), or 6/10 of an acre. Your average big-box store is 10x larger than that.

The current Trop site would be developed with one of the two GOOD proposals left (thanks for not buying into that fake bid from Williams Quarter, Mayor Baker), and once they start to fight it out, I hope to see (the majority...not the dismantling of I-175 part of) Archstone's proposal come out the winner. It has the best revenue potential with all the retail. We don't need a whole lot more residential downtown (4000+ from WQ? Talk about a glut!), we need more retail to jump start Grand Central and get this ball rolling again.

So, with a new source of tax revenue from the Trop, Grand Central raising its tax roles (and 100% of that's going to the city!), and the new, state-of-the-art stadium on the waterfront, St. Pete will quickly become the city in its own right it should have been 10+ years ago.

[Suzi]

Why? We have a good stadium already. Who is looking out for the public works system in this town. How could our current system possibly support all the downtown new and renovation building let alone a new stadium, and who is going to pay for all the road repairs due to all the heavy equipment making holes everywhere. I hope its not the current tax payers, it should be the new residents living in the expensive condos. Lets just rest a while and see what happens down town. Why not give current business residents a chance to spruce up their businesses, hire a consultant and get some kind of plan for our storefronts and street design. Now our town looks like a hodgepodge. Why not spend some money on making our downtown a place where people want to come and walk by the water. no new ball park.

[justme]

Hey Chris Jenkins.. I have to actually work once in awhile to earn my keep. But look I am here now.
I am NOT for the new stadium. I think Tropicana Field is perfectly fine for the team. It is not that old. This weekend at the game someone said they were all for the new stadium that baseball is not baseball in a indoor stadium. What cracked me up was in their next breath, they were complaining that it was a bit warm in the stadium. All I could do was shake my head in amusement and think .. "moron". When a mid summer nights storm comes through here, most of us at the game will be very thankful for that roof over our heads.
On a more positive note.. GO RAYS!! They are in first place tied with Baltimore so the next 3 days will see how well they are doing since they are up in Baltimore. This doesn't mean I think they deserve a new stadium. Preferably not with my tax paying dollars.
I've said it before, I think ALL sports should be private enterprise and pay the nice taxes that would go along with that nice piece of property they play on.

[Nick]

Here's to continuing the streak so you cotton tops can't use the "The Rays suck," excuse anymore. Go Rays! Can't wait to watch some ball on the Bay

[justme]

With the way the economy is right now we do not need more stores, condo's or anything else. I am seeing way to many business's close down every week. It's a very scary sight.
How will the waterfront stadium effect Albert Whitted Airport? Has anyone looked into that issue? Has the FAA been consulted to see if it would effect any of the runways?

[Jimbo]

Jake...ummm...40% of the season ticket holders live in Hillsborough? I'm not sure if we were looking at the same graphic, but I saw that only 33% of season ticket holders are in Tampa, and 54% are here in Pinellas (see here: http://www.stpete.org/raysproposal/pdf/PhaseITransportationandParkingStudy.pdf page 6-5)

Yeah, your "40%" is close, but it's, like the other arguments, misleading. Tampa doesn't need, nor deserve, another team, and St. Pete will keep the Rays, no matter what needs to be done. The Rays aren't demanding a new stadium right now, and they said they won't. So, if the PEOPLE DECIDE (meaning it's put on the ballot...don't fear the vote, POWW!) they don't want it, so be it.

[ProStadium]

I wonder what the age demographics for people for and against the stadium would look like if examined. It seems everybody I talk to that is part of the younger generation of residents is for the stadium but the 35 + crowd is against. If you really want a live, work, & play city than you should strongly consider the stadium. In the long run it will be a win-win. Besides, have you noticed the improvements the new ownership has made to the ball club. I know its early in the season but the recent success is a peak at what is on the horizon.

[b-ball fan]

PUT A WINNER ON THE FIELD AND THEY WILL COME NO MATTER WHERE THYE PLAY!!!!!!! GO RAYS!!!!!!

[Jay]

I'm still waiting for an answer, if anyone feels like fielding this one. What exactly is wrong with the current site?

[Jim]

The Rays are proposing giving up the larger plot of land for the smallest in major league baseball in a way to right the wrong. Tropicana Field is a suburban stadium in an urban area, and an eyesore for most people. It is rare these days for a developer to have so much space to use near an urban area with highway access

[Too Jay]

Jay, the Trop is the worst stadium in baseball and its high operating costs prevent the Rays from consistently fielding a competitive team. That is what's wrong with it. Having MLB here is a privilege, and we need to continue to invest in the team and its infrastructure in order to be competitive. It is no different than any other business who leases new office space....becuase it make the business more efficient. The difference is that baseball is not a big business, it actually has very narrow profit margins unless your the red sox or yankees. Building a new stadium with all private dollars will NEVER happen in this market, and the Rays have done a damn good job putting forward a progressive concept for financing that is a true win win.

[guy]

I'm here Chris J.

I was pleased to see the many improvements that he Ray’s ownership has listed for the new stadium.
They are going to give the first 5000 fans a bottle of sunscreen at every home game, in a Ray shaped dispenser.
They will be serving MSG free, fried sting ray sandwich’s with a bottle of the new Joe Madden Beer, for just $12.00.
They are going to put a laser beam protection barrier over the field to keep out flying pests.
The one thing I do disagree with them about, is displaying Ted William’s frozen head at the main entrance. I think this is tacky and could seem disrespectful and I am sure, many Red Sox fans will be offended.
Their plan to support Wade Boggs for Mayor is outstanding.
He should give them a big boost on the new stadium and add some notoriety to our little city.
Yes, I am starting to lean towards the stadium, only because they seem to have worked out most of the problems.

[Don Mott]

Jay you won't get an answer. There is not a good one to be had. Some folks are blinded by the pretty pictures and cannot see the forest for the trees. I don't think I need to rehash all of the negative aspects of the new stadium but I will say this. There are many. The pro stadium folks never say much more than it's good for the city (prove it), it's a win win situation (how?), and I like it. Show the numbers that will make this such a great deal for the city and it's citizens and not just for a few thousand fans. You can't. It's D.O.A.

[Nick]

The whole point of a waterfront park is to change the ball park experience. Which would you rather due be able to look out and see St. Pete's awesome downtown waterfront and see the highlights on ESPN of homeruns plunking in the water, or would you rather worry of some bum walking up to you and asking you for change on the way out to the vacant parking lot surrounding Tropicana Field. Not very many people go to major sporting events just to watch a game, otherwise the could just sit at home or at a bar and observe said game. Rather they go for the complete experience. This experience would be rivaled only by large market teams and those with enjoyable fan experience venues such as the Cubs, Red Sox, Spankees, and Orioles. Think about leaving work early grabing a bite to eat and a beer at one of the nearby restuarants and then walking into the game to enjoy a wonderful summers night with sailboat races going on in the bay. Now after the rays win think about heading out and grabbing a couple more drinks or heading home and relaxing. This sure beats the drive to game with window's up and park quickly followed by walking briskly into the TROP so that the bums don't bother you and the watching a game in a big air conditioned buble of a stadium and then exiting just as fast as you entered so that you don't get robbed, mugged, and hassled.

[Don Mott]

That there was funny guy

[Christopher Ave]

This blog is a great idea Aaron! Way to go. We should all be grateful the Times is covering this issue as closely as it is.

[guy]

Chuck ~~ Please don't Think that everyone who oppose's this fiasco are hippies, I'm so far to the right I wear Bill O' Reilly underwear.
No Stadium PERIOD and keep Al Lang for spring training and the Trop for a new team if the Ray's want to leave.
We want a team that knows how to bunt anyhow !!!!!!

[Don Mott]

Nick, I guess the bums as you call them won't go to the waterfront, are they afraid of water or do you think the neighborhood is out of their class? Not to mention if all the development promised with the Trop ever came into being you could do all of that there. By the way I heard there is never any violence at Bay Walk.

[guy]

How about tying the centerfielder to the Sail Mast
With 50 feet of rope and shortening the first base line so the Grand Prix cars can get by????

[Keep the Trop!]

Hey Nick - I guess you've never been to a game in NY.

[guy]

WoW rgllo72 xhg7jo jjor7
How many times do we have to go through this Aaron.
Is this just for letters that dont agree with the rays.
I have bad eyesight.

[guy]

Okay They are not going to display Teds Head.
But will have Ruth's Jock Strap in the case instead.

[guy]

Tropicana field is good enough for ANY team

[guy]

Aaron Watch your laptop very carefully, The Ray's hired a couple of pro's to steal Howards the other night right out of his house.

[Jay]

Too Jay,

I understand the premise you are aiming for, but I'm questioning your math. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that the operating costs for Tropicana Field are prohibitively high, so must draw your attention to this article in Forbes, detailing the financial statements of the 2005 Tampa Bay Devil Rays, followed by the 2007 staements:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/337975.html

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Tampa-Bay-Devil-Rays_337975.html

You'll notice that in two years, attendance at the gates has risen, overall revenue streams have risen, and even though player salaries have increased from 50 million to 57 million, the overall debt / value percentage has decreased. Included in that is increased sponsorship, and the 10 million dollars worth of renovation to Tropicana Field. In addition, the overall value of the team increased from $209 million in 2005, to $267 million in 2007. That is a significant return on investment.

So I challenge you, or anyone else who cares to chime in, to present how Tropicana Field is inhibiting the growth (which is up 28%) or the efficiency of the team, when clearly the numbers do not support that assessment.

[Don Mott]

I heard they'll have 5 cent beer nights with sweat towels and mosquito repellant thrown in for free. But you'll have to rent the night vision goggles to watch those sailboat races. Darn it. I like watching sailboat races when there's a ballgame going on but I can't afford those doggone goggles. So much for the complete experience.

[Nick]

Donny Boy,

You see with things such as redevelopment and private property things tend to change. And yes crime does happen everywhere that is a fact, however it is less likely to happen in areas where people develop a pride in ownership and togetherness as a community. This would be where people actually water and mow their lawn, plant bushes and plants, and do some general maintenance. What the Rays are asking to do is improve the experience at the ball park all while providing a chance at a redevelopment and revitalization of the downtown St. Petersburg area in two different locations. And I put this out to all of the people that are so against this new stadium, but what are you actually losing, maybe 400ft of sidewalk and possibly the road still in place which would effectively eliminate the claims that it would be destroying our waterfront. Please give me a reason other than all of the false claims that have been thrown out there like my taxes will be raised, we'll lose our waterfront, or how about traffic would be terrible. I'm not sure the last time that you drove around in other cities around the globe, but the traffic in St. Petersburg is some of the best in the country. This effort will create jobs, opportunities for new businesses, restuarants, and beautify our wonderful old city and help if finish it's coming of age. If you want a sleepy city with nothing going for it move to naples, fort myers, or sarasota. If you want to be a trendsetter and place that is moving up in terms of quality of life and things to do than it's easy to see how this makes so much sense.

[Don Mott]

Thanks Jay. Too Jay, Very narrow profit margins? Puhleeese! Progressive concept for financing? They haven't presented final plans for financing so you either have inside info or are spouting off about something which you know nothing about. Yea it's a win win if you own the Rays.

[Justin Elza]

Ballpark Frankness? What a farce!

Hmmm...let's see...a blog run by Aaron Sharockman, the "impartial" reporter who time and again has acted as PR fluff boy to the Rays while villainizing (and misquoting) those who oppose their plan. Ask him who he sat next to and played buddy buddy with the entire evening at the first city council forum...Could it be...hmmm...Satan? Er...I mean, Kalt and Silverman?

And at least one of the "bloggers" writing in favor of the Rays' Stadium plan is just someone who WORKS FOR THE ST PETE TIMES. That's right, I'm talking about you Jim Dietrich aka JIMBO. Real nice SPT, real nice.

And no doubt this has been coordinated with the Rays, who have now better organized their "professional blogging" efforts and are ready to skew the comments in their favor.

Total BS. This will be the last time I will ever participate in this blog, I'll stick with Troxler, at least he has some principles.

[guy]

Justin Don't be bitter let these AH's know how we feel about Abortion Field.

[Nick]

If this stadium isn't holding them back why do the so called word of god forbes people write this about the trop:

TAMPA BAY RAYS
Tropicana Field
One of the worst parks in the country, the domed stadium lacks any sort of baseball atmosphere. The team tries to make up for it with free parking, the ability to bring your own food to games and plenty of places to grab a quick bite or drink (though none are memorable). Tickets are cheap, maxing out at $85.

Do you guys like to go to pinellas parkside mall or would you rather go to international plaza mall. Seems like a no brainer.

[Don Mott]

Nick rather than spend my time typing a 150 word rebuttal to your claims I will sum it up in 6 easy words, You're living in a dream world. Guess you haven't been to Sarasota in 10 years or so huh? There are a lot more problems than sidewalk and road work which involves environmental problems in itself. "This effort will create jobs, opportunities for new businesses, restaurants" Please explain how, since this was fed to us when the vote for the Trop came up but it never materialized. Report after report nationwide has shown and proven that a professional sports stadium does nothing to help the surrounding community, if you don't believe me just use Google. By the way my name is not Donny Boy I would expect you would not get childish in your replies but that maybe that is too much to ask.

[guy]

NicKleass, Who do you work for? or are you a lawyer.
What did you guy's find in Howard Troxlers laptop?

[Don Mott]

Yep, typical pro stadium people telling us all how great it will be for the city, the team and local businesses but having no proof to back up the claims. Show the proof, show the numbers, oops I forgot you can't. Yea it's a win win situation, for the owners, but not for the taxpayers. By the way can somebody loan me the money for those night vision goggles so I can watch the sailboats race?

[Don Mott]

I would rather go to Parkside since I don't buy Gucci and the parking is easier. That's a no-brainer!

[ctya]

Jay,

What is wrong with the current site is that it has to be developed to pay for a new stadium.

I am not against the new stadium, but I think that it would be better on the eastern edge of the Trop parking lot. The problem is paying for it.

[Jay]

Ctya,

That does make sense, and I admit to being a bit of a devil's advocate in so much that the details of the financing had already been proposed with the initial press releases.

However, I have to question the wisdom of this plan, as it is akin to selling your kidney so you can get a liver transplant.

I too do not object to the new stadium and development plans, in fact, I think they're beautiful. But a redevelopment plan should be given equal consideration, not just packing up and moving. If the developers are to be believed, then the value of the land will not be marginalized by the existence of a major league ball park sharing the location. I would expect it would enhance it greatly.

[guy]

I hear that the Times has filed under chapter 11 of the bankrupt code?? any truth to this mr. Pro stadium and Co.

[Nick]

Excuse me Mr. Mott, I apoligize for the verbal bashing which obviously offended you in such major way. Also your word count is at 146 which is a whopping 4 away from a near broken promise. Please tell me what the environmental concerns are, or can you not comment on this because you are not educated enough in the subject matter. Lastly if Sarasota is so great then go ahead and move there. Cities like Sarasota, Brandon, Lutz, and Manatee are not big time cities with professional sports teams. Rather it is cities like Tampa, St. Pete, Miami, Orlando, and Jacksonville that draw teams. Additionally if you look back on the Fiscal year 2008 City of St. Petersburg tax information and budget, more than $16 million dollars is going towards the operation and paying off the current stadium debt. Now if this was converted to a new stadium and the land was sold and redeveloped and then tax income began to come in from the land that Tropicana field sits on, this would undoubtably allow this money to go towards a new stadium. Lets do some simple math here. Approzimately $40 million in debt due on Tropicana field at the purported finish date of 2012. Now take the $150 million that the Rays are willing to put into it and all of the sudden you have 110 million towards the new stadium. Now add in the $50-60 million from the sale of the land and now you have $170 million for the construction of the stadium. Now take the estimated cost of the stadium at $450 mil and subtract the amount that the team and developers are going to put into it and that leaves you with $280 million. Now take a potential naming rights deal a make it for approximately $100 million over 30 years (This deal would be well outside the top ten stadium naming rights deals out there which makes it totally feasible) and now you have your basis for the stadium down to 180 million to be financed over 30 years of tax payer dollars. This would amount to a loan of approximately $180 mil at 5.75 percent with a common mortagage. Now if the city were to use government bonds or other cheaper loan alternatives this would even lower yearly payments. So at worse case scenario you wind up at approximately $13 mil a year for the new stadium costs plus operating expenses which is safe to estimate at 3-4 million due to it being a relatively new stadium and not having to pay for Air Conditioning expenses. That amounts to approxiamtely $17 million a year in estimated annual costs. So in total you could say with confidence that with the current $16+ million that is going towards the stadium, plus all tax revenue that is coming from the sale of the Tropicana site, that the City would be able to pay for the cost of the stadium without raising taxes and most likely being able to lower them slightly or fund other capital improvement projects through out the city. Now if you also include several other things that the owners have promised to pay for including any cost overruns on the project, then it seems like a pretty simple answer to the stadium question vote YES!!!!!!!!!! Now fathom this, the trop cost over $115 million to build back in 1990 and then another $105 million has been poored into since due to it's lack luster atmosphere and issues with construction. Where in contrast Oriole Park at Camden yards was finished only 3 years after the Trop at a cost of $110 million and only one $9 million dollar renovation has been added to the stadium tab. The Trop has been a lemon from the begginng and needs to be replaced. Continuing with it would be the fleecing of St. Pete.

[Don Mott]

Nick you're funny. You are spinning and twisting more than a tornado. I really don't want to take the time to respond to your innuendo and false beliefs. If you want to see the environmental impacts they are readily available by doing a little searching. I don't feel the need to rehash what if already available for public viewing which you have failed to research. Have fun with your dreams and those sailboat races.

[Kyle]

Who cares? President Bush s u x . Gas profits are out the a r s e. And we sit back and take it in it. Stand up and say no for a change. I will no longer allow anyone to screw me for their profit.

[Don in St. Pete]

Nick, Seems like you forgot a lot of stuff already. Pinellas County owes money for the Trop too and Mayor Baker and City Staff have indicated a 3500 spot parking Garage would need to be built at around $60Mil. Add in the cost to demilish the trop and clean up the toxins left in the soil, which could cost more than the stadium. Next add in the significant infratructure costs and the cost to hire more Police, and City staff. And bouy, I sure do want that job stocking shelves at Cabela's for $6.75 an hour. Get real, at least admit the truth, that you want to destroy our waterfront with this monstrosity so your vanity will be served by being able to brag about a new stadium which each and every resident will have to pay through the nose for.

[paul]

I like St Pete and truly believe we are a great city with the Rays in the Trop and the downtown doing quite well, as it stands today. I'm not against progress, but this is a bulldozer idea for the benefit of a handful of people.

The enjoyment I get at every red 'no stadium' sign I see is almost worth the fight. Remember all the people who are today our Council and Mayor and Governor, during your future votes. These people are the shame of existence and the soul selling devils of a society steeped in greed and deception. How much does one need, how much can one overlook in their own conscience? I have no idea how they honestly look at themselves in their mirrors in the morning.

[Willie Doyle]

One of the advantages of coming late into a debate is that you get to sit back and quietly read all that has been written before and then offer a rebuttal.

To the person who said a new stadium will offer a “revitalization of the downtown St. Petersburg” one might say, “Where have you been?” Ten years ago there was one condo within two blocks of the waterfront. Now there are nine (two in the process of building) with the Grand Bohemian about the break ground and two more waiting in the wings. This has brought thousands of people to spend money on the ever-increasing numbers of restaurants and club and shops. Revitalization? We’ve got it. You must be thinking of some of those derelict RR yards and rotting wharves that have been the home to new stadiums. We are the Jewel on the Bay. We don’t need revitalization.”

The same writer said “ This effort will create jobs, opportunities for new businesses, restaurants, and beautify our wonderful old city and help if finish it's coming of age”

See above comments. Plus . . . the jobs will be, as another writer put it, stock boys at $6.25 an hour not corporate exec at $625 a year. New businesses and restaurants – let’s talk about how that will destroy the ones already trying to get a toehold downtown. One study on the Camden Yards in Baltimore showed that people arrive half an hour before a game and leave half an hour after and spend all their money INSIDE the stadium. No increase for profits at the “local” watering holes at all. Beautify the city? Try plopping down a monstrous stadium whose scale and mass is all out of proportion to the waterfront. It will be taller and bigger than the Trop. Finish the city’s coming of age? It’s there, guys. The stadium will not make it any better. It will detract.

And as for the continued myth of the Rays “contributing” 150 million…. when will you all get it straight that it is MOT a contribution. It is rent paid up front. It is our money; money the city should be collecting in rent. But they/we’ll not get it cuz the Rays are planning to pay it right now with 2008 dollars. Can we say corporate greed?

[Nick]

This goes out to everyone that isn't able to read the facts. For don in St. Pete please reread my last post and you will clearly see that it does indeed focus on the debt that is still in place due to the Trop. And for everyone else exactly how does this destroy our waterfront? The waterfront will still be available to walk along and the stadium would provide a usage for at least 81 days a year vice the Saturday Morning Market which meets 52 days a year. And then lets factor in if either Al Lang is rehabbed or torn down and a new park built or whatever then who will pay for it and who will be in charge of the upkeep for the facility thats right the city. By selling the trop land to a commercial entity they will become responsible for the new private property and thus will employ offduty police officers for security. This means more jobs available. And the comments saying that a new police would have to be hired due the new stadium to protect it and work it is rediculous because the trop is already accounting for those jobs. And for everyone that thinks that the Rays should buy more land over at the Trop site and redevelop it with a Parking garage, retractable roof stadium and then sell the exisiting land to a developer is both misinformed and needs to go back to economics 101 to learn how to finance things. The average cost of a retractable roof stadium is approximately 525 million as is the case with the new marlins stadium. So what is exactly everyone's problem with the new stadium:

1. Traffic
2. Having a new building built in Downtown St. Pete
3. Selling the trop
4. Or so called environmental concerns....

And for everyone worried an environmental concerns please check into how much hazardous waste those handy lithium-ion batteries are creating, with their manufacturing, usuage, and disposal nightmares. And lets not forget the thousands of dollars that the POWW is spending on wasting paper and other natural materials to help foster their anti stadium propaganda.

[get-smart]

Nicky you are a nice guy and all but your numbers are garbage. For one, I don't care to further enrich these greedy NY Goldman Sacks investment bankers who became wealthy by aiding and abetting the outsourcing of our American jobs to China. I also don't care to fill in the bay. Plus I don't care to disrupt the tranquility of the city with this virtual Mega Boom Box. So take your numbers to your boss Kalt and tell him to sit on it.
Oh Yeah! Nick, the next time you're at the Trop get a corn dog. You can't go wrong.

[Kyle]

Nick,
when are we going to another game? Those employee seats you get are SWEEEEEEEEET. Have they worked on those employee discount cards yet? You had a great idea with that recommendation.

[Wes]

Don't build the stadium on the waterfron location because...
1. The stadium would block access to the beautiful view of the waterfront that people love.
2. The roar of the crowds would interfere with artistic performances in the Mahaffey Theater.
3. It will cost too much. More than many citizens are willing to pay.
4. The existing site is still usable. An alternate statium can be built there, if needed, and the Trop can be torn down.
5. The stadium will force the Grand Prix of St Petersburg to look for another course.

I agree with others that...
1. Going from an air conditioned stadium to an outdoor stadium will have a negative impact on attendance.
2. Parking will be a total disaster.

[Jon McPhee]

Looks like this spot has descended already into the usual Internet garbage. Don't we just all love to have somebody to hate? Hey, Aaron, wasn't this site supposed to be about the nuts and bolts and accounting and accountability in this Big Deal? God forbid that there be long posts that try to address the complexities and get answers to obvious and subtle questions that the voters and taxpayers and even our elected officials deserve answers to, before swallowing the bait.

There have been a lot of unanswered "pro" comments about all the good things that will happen if we just have a stadium on the waterfront. "Revitalize downtown! Bring in jobs! More money spent in the shops and restaurants! Property values will increase as tourists will want to come here! Billion dollars in new retail! Bring in the people driving past St. Pete to shop at the International Mall when they would surely veer off on 375 and spend money for Louis Vuitton handbags for sale in the new Trop Town Center!"

Where are the punch lists of potential fatal flaws, veto holders, financials, liability analyses, cost and benefit spreadsheets and the rest that would allow some kind of informed discussion and debate?

Every single one of these "pro" comments fails to have been supported by anything other than an "everybody knows" assumption. Most have been refuted by actual studies of what has actually happened in other urban areas, small and large, where stadiums bought with public and even private money were supposed to "revitalize" and "employ" and "attract" and "enrich" and all the rest.

"Everybody knew" that the Trop, and all the other great projects that the hopeful and greedy wanted to throw up on already "vital" areas, "revitalized" by being leveled years ago by Urban Renewal, would bubble with all kinds of rosy benefits. The voters and taxpayers deserve FACTS to support all these bald assertions. Tell us, pros, what jobs? How many, and what kinds of pay levels? What will attract tourists? What do you consider that "revitalized" looks like? What will bring large numbers of "new" people into Downtown, whether residents or tourists, when there are so many competing attractions, and so much hassle in getting into and around Downtown already?

My family and I used to come here from Chicago in the spring, to enjoy the beaches and watch the Mets play and even watch and play shuffleboard along 4th Street. But those were quieter times, and it took less to get people off their couches and out of their vehicles. I loved baseball at Wrigley "Wait Till Next Year" Field, but I had to walk a long way from street parking or outrageously expensive "private lots" past bums AND FANS peeing and pooping and puking on lawns and in the alleys. Walk, in the heat and rain and whatever else Chicago weather dished up. At these outdoor games, the ambulance crews always carried away a few folks who succumbed to heat stroke or heart failure. That won't happen under the Sail, WILL it?

I like baseball, even though The Game is so warped that it's hard to remember what Wrigley and Comiskey and such places were like, sitting among my fellow Joe Sixpacks who will never be seen under the Sail, for simple economic reasons. But don't try to sell me a pig's ear in a poke and tell me it's a silk purse, okay? How many times do we have to let a bunch of carpetbaggers hold our hands to the stove before we get it?

I also have to ask the "pros" who threaten us with the bugbear of Oh No! More Condos! if we don’t displace them first with this Stadium! Well, at least that would bring nominal "residents" downtown FULL TIME, instead of in an occasional storm surge, choking the downtown with a four- or five-hour flood that recedes back to the beaches or gated communities when the game is over.

Cities change, no doubt, and not always for the better. The privileged almost always decide what the future will look like, and any more they have absolutely no sense that the rabble need to be accommodated in any way, only drawn down as wasting assets until there ain't nothiing left. As George Orwell's "Animal Farm" pig observed, "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." If you want to freeload your Big Deal off the rest of us, and expect us to tighten our belts to support your maybe 81 "pleasant evenings" under the Sail, while you are filling your own bellies off our plates, show us where the beef is.

If you want a stadium and you want to sell it to us by smoke and mirrors and promises of pie in the sky, you ought to be ready to show us the fire and the light and the plate with the pie on it. Unsupported and likely unsupportable noise about "revitalization" is just Pollyanna yadayada.

[k]

Someone very early in this commented that Al Lang is an "old dilapidated minor league park". I'm pretty sure, but correct me if I'm wrong, that there are a lot older parks out there that are used for MAJOR league teams, so this comment is ridiculous.
As for Nick ... don't forget to fill in the soap dispensers in the Rays executive washroom! VOTE NO VOTE NO VOTE NO IF IT MAKES ON THE REFERENDUM!!!

[TechRider]

Actually, the park and bike to the game is a great idea.

An even better idea would be the site of the Dog Track. It has it all, water view, parking and ease of access from Tampa and Pinellas.

The Trop was poorly planned from the beginning and ten years old before the first game was played. While the field always looks nice as leave the dungeon and head to your seats, the dome and catwalks are ridiculous. It's like playing stickball in the city. "If it hits the Buick, it's a double!"

[guy]

Well gooood morning.
I see Nick is still on the payroll.
But Nick don't plan for retirement.
No one answered about the Times Bankruptcy thing, chapter 11.
I thought some of you guy's had contacts
????

[guy]

I give you credit Nick, you are a encylopedia of idiocracy.
Do you belong to reverend Wrights Church?

[Paul]

Lets look at this timeline: Developer 'Hines meets with Times ed board'... so the Ray's PR machine is more than likely aware of this and perhaps get wind of this new blog the Times is running. 'Nick' comes out of nowhere (I've been on these blogs since day 1 of this the stadium nonsense and have never seen 'nick') with a 'get the facts' speaking point that no one but a PR agency would come up with. I say that because a PR tactic to fight a loosing proposition is to create fear, uncertainty and doubt. So are other large PR machines/corporations. Its all they have, so they have to do to create this sense of unknown 'facts'. This is actually pretty funny. Nick, you are likely a 45 yr old woman sitting in a NYC PR agency office, crafting your speaking points and trying not to break a nail while typing and drinking your 8 dollar latte. We however, are St Pete residents that have the power of the vote and the determination of our wallets to fight our disgusting excuse of a Mayor and City Council until this project is completely stopped. There is power in numbers and us voters are ready, should this make it to a ballot, to vote it down. Remember, your vote only counts if you are a registered voter in St Pete, other than that, you're just an opinionated person... with no real power to influence the final outcome.

[Thomas]

I am NOT a PAID Blogger, Rays employee or POWW member. I have nver commented in this paper before. I live in Old Northeast and I have been taking my wife and two boys ages 3 and 4 to games for three years, over 175 games in all. I have been a rays season ticket holder since I moved here. People and their personal agendas aside, WE don't support the team or the stadium WE have. If the stadium and its air conditioning is so great why don't YOU attend. YOU say it is because we don't have a winning team. Discuss these FACTS:

2001
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 62-100
Rays Average Attendance - 16,029
Pittsburgh Pirates Record - 62-100
Pirates Average Attendance - 30,742

2002
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 55-106
Rays Average Attendance - 13,157
Milwaukee Brewers Record - 56-106
Brewers Average Attendance - 24,310

2003
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 63-99
Rays Average Attendance - 13,070
Cleveland Indians Record - 68-94
Indians Average Attendance - 21,358

2004
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 70-91
Rays Average Attendance - 16,139
Seattle Mariners Record - 63-99
Mariners Average Attendance - 36,305

2005
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 67-95
Rays Average Attendance - 14,502
Detroit Tigers Record - 71-91
Tigers Average Attendance - 25,306

2006
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 61-101
Rays Average Attendance - 16,910
Baltimore Orioles Record - 62-100
Orioles Average Attendance - 30,742

2007
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 66-96
Rays Average Attendance - 17,148
Houston Astros Record - 73-89
Astros Average Attendance - 30,742

2008 Year to Date
Tampa Bay Rays Record - 14-12
Rays Average Attendance - 18,867
Pittsburgh Pirates Record - 12-16
Pirates Average Attendance - 33,824

2001 - 2007
Tampa Bay Rays Avg. Record - 62-100
Rays Average Attendance - 16,029
Seven Cities Avg. Record - 66-96
Seven Cities Avg. Attendance - 30,742

If we could average what Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Seattle, Detroit, Baltimore did in attendance with similar losing records AND a new ballpark as they all built, with the average attendee spending a gross of $43.00 per person per event, (Dining, Parking, Tickets, Apparel, Drinks ECT...) that would translate into more than 1/3 of a billion dollars (13,628 avg. attendance Difference x 81 games x 7 years x $43 per attendee = $355,533,947.19 to be exact) in additional consumer spending and taxes downtown over the next 7 years. That is more than 30 downtown bars and restaurants with $1.5 million in annual sales COMBINED and TOTALLED over 7 Years.

The same number hypothetically would work with the Trop as well, but without the additional year round economic stimulus of redevelopment for the current Trop site. If WE support the team where it is, then WE have a right to complain about change, unless the change WE want is for the Rays to leave. Leaving St. Pete or Florida entirely would not be the fault of the rays. It would be the lackluster support of US as fans.

And as to PARKING, free enterprise will take care of that to be sure. The minute we break ground people will be falling over themselves to get into the parking business. (5000 cars x 81 games x $15 per car x 10 years totals $60,750,000 in parking revenue alone, not counting land / retail value or air rights) I think this income and investment potential will more than motivate private investors (even the Rays) to build parking more than sufficient for the game and further supplimenting our downtown parking needs.

Do I want a new stadium? - YES
Do I think the Rays should pay there fair share? - YES
Do I think that this would be a great, once in a generation opportunity for US to lose? YES
Can WE work TOGETHER to figure out how to get it done and mitigate community and taxation damage while figuring out how to MAXIMIZE community benefits, taxable income, stimulate consumer and tourist spending, create jobs and enhance the quality of life? TO BE DETERMINED

[Hammer]

The unanswered question still beckons…

Why hasn’t the County Commission authorized the County Attorney to seek an injunction against the City of St. Pete for issuing, and proceeding with negotiations, for the redevelopment of property owned by Pinellas County taxpayers?

Once this precedence is set… it’s bye-bye Ft. Desoto, hello condos.

[Chuck]

My goodness Jon and Don, doesn't typing the same rubbish over and over get a little exhausting?

We get it. You don't want a new stadium. You resent the wealthy and affluent. You resent business owners. You want airships full of money to do cargo drops on the southside.

This is all so tired guys. You're in favor of denying the public a chance to vote on the issue because you're afraid people don't live in your "dream world". Let the people vote and if you guys win congrats.

[Paul]

I don't go to ball games because I don't enjoy watching others play sports. I swim, bike, run, and windsurf on my own, so that's how I enjoy sports. I do, I don't watch. Ok, so there's this big financing discussion but what about the point of disrupting the organic growth of our City, by placing a HUGE corporate sponsorship info-mercial/stadium in a such a small area? It does not fit. By that, I don't mean just physically, I mean the character of the stadium, the number of people it will draw, the noise it will generate, the light it will project and shadows it will cast do not fit. The waterfront is quite pleasant now... image a gigantic mardi-gras like stadium with its flashing lights, blinking signs, horns, sires and surely a massive corporate sponsored name hanging off the side of it, visible most likely all the way out to I-275. It'll reek of 'waterfront for sale, contact the city council'. What fits is the long worked on visioning, park space and character of the downtown waterfront. Again, call me whatever you want to, but I don't like baseball and could care less about it. You want it to be played outside, fine. Build a new stadium right next to the Trop, have it built with no roof and there you go. We have 250,000 voters in St Pete. I'm going to guess most of them don't go to baseball games either. Our City is beautiful. Why must we so worship the dollar? You can't say have a picnic on a bank statement. You can however, enjoy an already beautiful waterfront for nearly free. Keep it beautiful, don't build this monster structure.

[Chuck]

Paul,

It's blatantly obvious that you don't like baseball. I really enjoyed your holier than thou opening line however. It really swayed me.

[Paul]

Thanks Chuck, I try. You should get out there and enjoy the fresh air by running a few miles on our waterfront.... as I will be doing shortly. Perhaps you already do, who knows.

[Don Mott]

I am the real Don Mott and I did not post the message at 8:57 AM. Obviously there is an immature person lurking here. And this will be reported.

Don, ask for them to check the IP address of that post against other posts.

[Can We All Get Along?]

A few thoughts:

1. The referendum would essentially be asking do you want to turn the 90 year old stadium on the waterfront into a modern - and yes, bigger stadium.

2. There are 26 other cities that have MLB teams. To my knowledge none of those cities are trying to get their teams to leave because they feel having a MLB team is cash flow negative.

3. The opposite actually appears to be true. Safeco Field in Seattle was built with 73% public money. Bank One Ballpark in Phoenix was built with 67% public money. Ballpark in Arlington - 75% public money. Coors Field 82%. Camden Yards 90%. PNC Park in Pittsburgh 83%. - You get the idea. -- Are all 26 other cities wrong about the net benefit of a MLB team on the local economy?

4. If we believe having a MLB team is not profitable for the City then by all means we should not build this stadium. However, we should do the right thing and release the Rays from their lease and ask them to find another place to play.

5. There are a handful of cities out there that would take the Rays right now and give them a free stadium.

6. The Rays want to be here. They are willing to spend $150 million up front to stay here.

7. The City does not have to have a referendum to spend money to build a stadium. This idea could get voted down and the very next day the City Council could decide to spend $750 million to build a stadium somewhere other than the waterfront.

8. Tropicana Field is and has been for awhile considered the worst stadium in baseball. Does anyone really think a MLB team is going to play in that giant warehouse for 19 more years?

9. If you think a stadium elsewhere is a better idea - then stop talking about the money - a new stadium elsewhere will most likely be built with a retractable roof and would cost more to build.

10. Heat - supposed to be the 4th hottest stadium in MLB. Some people wouldn't go to an outdoor stadium in July. Obviously, the Rays want more bodies in the stadium and feel that those losses will be more than off set by a better stadium in a beautiful setting.

11. Parking and Traffic. Don't need this additional parking the Mayor is asking for. Both professional parking companies agreed there is already enough capacity. As soon as someone can explain how we easily handled the IRL race with twice as many cars I would be happy to debate parking. - Yes, we put about 4,000 cars on the Trop lots - at least 2,000 spots would be left at the Trop site if it is redeveloped. That leaves a need for finding 2,000 spots for an event twice the size of a ball game sellout. Bayfront Medical with 1600 spots parked 0 cars on race day and there were more than 3,000 empty spots available between 2nd Ave. North and 2nd Ave. South between the water and 16th Street. A corridor easily serviced by shuttles.

13. The Environment.... please - replacing an old stadium with no storm runoff system with an LEED Silver Certified stadium with a highly advanced water runoff system. Reducing the Rays carbon footprint by 70% in exchange for extending the seawall in the man made harbor by 6/10th of an acre. Look at an old map - there was no Bayshore Drive until the City built this 7 mile long seawall - it is not a natural waterfront to start with.

14. I think the main thing to debate is pretty simple. Is the proposed stadium too big for the Al Lang site. There is no "right" answer. I think any car bigger than a compact is too big - other people want an SUV. I want to see a scaled model of the stadium in context with the surrounding buildings. Then I can make an informed decision.

[Aaron Sharockman]

Ok guys. Here's the deal.

That "Don Mott" post wasn't from Don Mott. And like the person at 12:15 said, I can see the IP addresses of each post. If I want to have lots of fun, I can also check that against all of the other Times blogs.

Please, please don't steal other people's names.

[Kyle]

Can We All Get Along- Can I go to the game with you? Are your seats better than Nick's? Do you already have that employee discount card?

[Don Mott]

Thank you Aaron for reacting so quickly.

[canweallgetalong?]

Hey Kyle - I don't know Nick - I don't work for the Rays - I don't watch baseball.

[Chuck]

I know Don probably thinks I'm the one that made the imposter post but I assure you that is not the case.

[Chuck]

Amazing Kyle - someone comes out states a valid opinion and they're suddenly in bed with the organization.

We don't feel the need to form an organization to propagandize our cause i.e. POWW!

[guy]

I do Chuck,
I think we need all the help we can get to stop these NY Rubes.

[guy]

I think Nick is using some alias's to get his assignment complete!!!!!!!!

[Kyle]

It must be hard going through life being almighty and righteous. I prefer to find a laugh in things.
Hey Chuck- could you wash the bedsheets please?

[Don Mott]

Can we all get along, I believe POWW has that scaled model on their website if you really want to see it.

[canweallgetalong?]

That is not a scale model. It is a scaled outline. I'm talking about something that places the stadium in context 3-D. Dimensions are only part of the equation when looking at the "presence" or "weight" of a structure. If you go out in the bay and look back at Signature Place it is significantly taller than Bayfront Tower but Bayfront is actually a much heavier presence. The design of the proposed stadium appears to be very "light" it can be seen through at certain elevations. Tropicana is a solid mass and is a larger stadium. One of the design goals for this stadium was to make it as light, airy and as "whimsical" as possible because of it's proposed location on the waterfront. I think it is hard for people to visualize this stadium in context (me included) Some people seem to visualize just picking up Tropicana and dropping it on the waterfront. This stadium has nowhere near the mass of Tropicana. Think of it like this; who has more physical presence in a room - a 6'2" 350 pound man or a 6'4" 150 pound man?

[Don Mott]

Sorry, I didn't understand the difference between model and outline. I was just trying to help. I'd like to see the 3-D concept as well.

[Kyle]

I'll guess the short fat guy. Am I smarter than a non-POWW member?

[Don Mott]

Here we go again, Aaron I think you need to check the post at 4:13 looks bogus to me.

Please check the IP of 4:13 against other posts in your system.

[Aaron Sharockman]

Ok, ok, ok. The Justin Elza posts at and around4:13 p.m. are not the same Justin Elza who has posted elsewhere and on Howard's blog (in fact, he swore this blog off within hours of its first post). I'm not sure if I can block people, or that I'd want to. But, it's becoming apparent that people are going to play games with people's handles. Here's what I suggest, for now. If you register through Typepad, you get a user name that is uniquely yours. By that, my name is in blue and underlined. If you do that, only posts by you will be blue and underlined. It doesn't solve every problem, but it's a start. As far as removing posts, I going to try to figure out some code here that will be the standard.

I'd appreciate any suggestions.

[Paul]

Hi Aaron, the new blog seems to pretty active... are you sure you're ready for all of us opinionated bloggers? You may want to move the coffee maker closer to your desk, I'm thinking things are only going to get more active as time goes one. Good luck with us. Oh, one last thing, if/when you go to another Council meeting, don't sit by the Rays owners. It just looks bad.

[Keep the Trop!]

Give it up Nick...your blithering is embarrassing and boring.

[Paul]

Nick, you're comment... 'If you want a sleepy city with nothing going for it...' is completely unfounded. That's kind of what I was getting at earlier with my comment on the Rays PR machine and a 'get the facts' campaign. St Pete has so much to do and see, you have to be afraid of leaving your couch, if you honestly think we have nothing going for us. We have beaches, sailing, fishing, a ton of beautiful parks, arts, museums, concerts, concerts, shows, events going on all the time, every single weekend, there's just no possible way to take in all there is to do. You can't possibly be honest in saying that. If so, you need to go outside and breathe some air. St Pete is just incredible, even with the Trop just the way it is... I still can't figure out what's wrong with that perfectly good stadium but I don't own a profitable baseball team now do I? With that I say 'no thank you, Kalt and Ray's owners', I like my City the way it is, beautiful and not for sale to you financiers.

[Jon McPhee]

Canwe, I guess your remark that the SailAway design goals included being "as 'whimsical' as possible" was maybe just a Freudian slip, right? You must be pretty comfortable that it's okay to drain half a billion out of our shrinking publilc coffers so the few who can afford the ticket price can have their fun and games. Do you really believe that for the whole community, the main issue is just "Is the proposed stadium too big for the Al Lang site"?

And Chuck, as far as restating issues that don't get substantive answers, that needs to be done. You have no shame about intoning your mantra, which seems to stop at "The Stadium is good, everyone else is bad."

[canweallgetalong?]

Hey Jon - if you want to try to respond to one of my points try making some sense. The term "whimsical" while not a perfect term for the description of a structure has been used before and it is a term the Ray's have used in describing the sense of the stadium.

It's clear you don't understand income vs. expenses - the fundamental base of financial accounting.

First, 300 million is not half a billion- use a calculator if you need help with that.

Second, your assumption is that having a team here creates no income for the City - therefore the "drain"

Simple question - Is your position that all 26 other Cities with MLB are wrong about the net financial benefit of having a team and you are right?

[Nick]

Ok Folks, since we don't want to destroy our waterfront and change everything in St. Petersburg, I think that we should demolish the following items that were placed along our waterfront so that we can have more parks and reacreational space. Ok here we go:

1. Salvador Dali Museum
2. University of South Florida St. Pete
3. The Vinoy Hotel and residences
4. All of the houses on Brightwaters
5. The Pier
6. The St. Petersburg History Museum
7. The St. Petersburg art museum
8. The St. Pete Yacht Club
9. Al Lang Stadium
10. The Mahaffey theatre
11. Albert Whitted Airport

And thats just to start, maybe we can look into some more areas to bull doze in a bit.

A couple of other items for those genius' on here, I don't work for the rays, the City of St. Pete, or even the state. Rather I work for the United States Government, and guess what your taxes go to paying my salary as we speak. Add into that you the taxpayers paid for my college education where I was a collegiate athlete and graduated with honors. Should your money not have went to all of that either because if so than I have what the other solution will be for you if your taxes didn't pay for it.

And just one more point how many people in this blog are living in the first house that they ever purchased? Why did you move or upgrader your housing? Simple because your old house was not adequate to raise a family and take you to the next level.

Now lets ask ourselves this question, If the Rays were to successfully build the stadium, who would own the stadium? Thats right the City of St. Petersburg would and thus we would not be therotically not increasing the value of the Team. Also where were the Buccaneers prior to a new stadium and changing their uniforms, thats right they were playing the lions and bears for worst record in the league every year.

All, I'm saying is that we need a new stadium because the Trop is a terrible baseball park. On top of that the land at Al Lang is available. And if we are worried about the filling in the .6 acres, why don't we remove the old skyway bridge as I'm sure that would more than make up for the .6 acres that are in the bay. And can someone please tell me in what 84 acre area in St. Petersburg we have elite shopping, dining, and a recreational area. Because flat out we don't, and the redeveloped area will provide this feature. It will make a sort of town center type atmosphere with all of those items available. When is the last time that we had a major department store in Downtown St. Pete, hum how about Maas brothers. St. Pete needs to reinvigorate the shopping and dining in the Trop area to really make it finish growing up. St. Pete still has so much more potential within it and for anyone that thinks it's done growing and polishing is complete ignorant. I would seriosly like to see a pole of what exactly people don't like the most about the idea of a new park. It seems like too many people are just saying they don't want one there because of money and that a couple more million need to be pumped into the Trop, or at another site. So the question that I pose is who is going to pay for that. So In closing that should be the next blog on here, maybe just a simple pole to see what are the true things that are holding the stadium back. I'm sure that POWW, and all of the people that don't want to see this thing happen will be more than willing to share their insight or lack their of.

[Ben Dover]

Hey all you losers out there, I can post under any name that I want to. How do I know what name is real and what name isn't. Aaron, isn't it amusing how when something is posted that people don't like, they all go run to thier daddy (you) You can police this from foul language, but not from people's real opinions. Justin, glad you finally see the light.

[Kyle]

Nick- if we paid for that education, we need a refund. You need spellcheck and a language arts class. Ever heard of a run-on sentence?

[Chuck]

Damn smack-daddy Kylie Minogue! Go easy on the kid.

Two questions for Nick, are we planning on taking the paintings out of the Dali Museum before bulldozing the building? Probably a good idea.

Are we planning on bulldozing the USF campus while classes are in session? Just kidding commuter school losers! I wish you no harm.

[rayray]

@Jake 3:36pm 4/29, First thanks for the supoort of the Rays, it's very much appreciated, but you are typical Tampon resident that's jealous of St. Pete. We have something that you finally want/treasure, so you type venom which is moot.

I'm always supporting our inner land suburb across from the beautiful penisula.

[Thank you]

Thankyou Nick for telling it like it is. My feelings exactly & I'm a St. Pete native/resident. We need to complete the city's renaissance & this will accomplish that making us the most alluring city in the southeastern US.

Thanks Justin @8:44am for seeing what's in the best interest for all of St. Pete. Not just a few condo dwellers that may or may not be gone before it's built anyways.

Keep the hope strong for this development & what a great day it will be in St. Petersburg (who was just awarded/approved for a annual college Bowl game to be play in the Trop, another annual tradition begins, sweet).

Hip Hip Hoo Rays!

[Chris Jenkins]

Sorry, Thank You, everyone knows that wasn't Justin, and that the most militant of the pro-stadium folks have been engaging in a nasty game of impersonation and slander by proxy. It's a shame their stance and argument is so weak that they have to resort to these kinds of tactics.

For the record, I don't have any intention to try and block a city wide vote. I only seek to keep the facts out in front and visible. I would like it to go to a city wide vote, where an informed electorate can practice democracy, and vote this thing down on its merits, as opposed to any particular doom and gloom scenario for or against it.

There are questions which must be answered. Until they are answered, we would be fools to hand over our wallets...

[Don Mott]

Nick, Nick ,Nick, The opponents have been expressing their reasons for opposition for a long time, do some research. By the way a pole is a long cylindrical piece of wood, metal etc., or the extremities of the earth's axis. There are as of yet no guarantees that the redevelopment of the Trop would bring in any major department stores. And I would guess you haven't read the environmental reports of what the filling in of the bay could produce in the way of damage. No you probably read only the feel good stuff that proponents and the Rays write. Do some research and investigation. I'm sure that you would research an investment such as a house before you bought it, wouldn't you? Or do you just hand over money based on pie in the sky promises?

[Kyle]

I think it would be easier to keep the stadium in the direction it faces now. This should give you plenty of room for parking. Why not have Disney pay for the stadium and they could have It's a small world/ Buzz Lightyear type rides underneath. They could install a boardwalk with parking underneath that. Then they could have the column that holds up the sails become the next Tower of Terror. The Rays like Disney. They win there. Tell Kalt to get Mickey on the phone. He's got some business to discuss.

[Chris Jenkins]

Kyle, you may be joking, but that particular arrangement could very well be the salvation to this entire plan. A corporate partnership with some deep pockets willing to cover the costs that WILL manifest once the deal is inked could provide the safety net the citizens of this city need to make the deal happen.

[gary grooms]

Hey Don, can you post a link to the environmental reports you mention. While it sounds all dramatic to say "fill in the bay" - it's probably more accurate to say "extend the existing seawall into the man-made harbor"

However, we want to say it - let's see what the Army Corps of Engineers have to say.

[Don Mott]

Here ya go. http://www.ukmarinesac.org.uk/activities/ports/ph5_2.htm This will tell you in gentle terms the effects of dredging.

http://blogs.tampabay.com/troxler/files/StPeteMarinawell.pdf
This will verify that there are sea grasses involved and in case you weren't aware they are protected. http://blogs.tampabay.com/troxler/files/StPeteMarinawell.pdf Evidence of an artesian well that attracts manatees.
By the way the dredging site is a dredging association so I'm sure they tread lightly on the effects, but it speaks for itself.

[Chris Jenkins]

Hey Gary, no one can post a link to the environmental reports, because no one has done an environmental study yet. What we DO know is that there are sensitive habitats in the area that will have to be accounted for and/or mitigated. Since there has been no explanation of how that will be done, there is a reasonable concern for environmental impact.

Here's the thing, Gary. It's not just about protecting the ecosystem. The fact is, there are laws in place to account for that sort of thing, and the Rays would absolutely have to be able to comply with all of them, not just get a LEEDS cert and call it a day. That's not a choice, that's the reality of the law. Where the evironmental concern comes in is to the bottom line. An 18 month review by the USGS, FWC, and EPA will delay the timeline, driving up admin and legal costs. Finally, once that grueling procedure is complete, and the bad news is published (remember truck loads of contaminated soil under the Trop site?), successful mitigation of the findings could cost as much as another 100 million dollars. That's a pretty serious over run when we're already on the hook for 300 mil.

It's not environmental doom and gloom. I'm not up in here threatening that global warming is going wash the new stadium away. I'm illustrating some hard realities about a building project of this size, some realities that those of you who were here for the first round of "Build it and they will come" will remember, but the rest of you may not be aware of. We've danced this dance before.

P.S. For any of you who are not sure what all the "anti-stadium" people are fussing about, the CONA newsletter addressing their recommendations to the city really spells it out in a simple, straight forward and easy to read fashion. I encourage you to be open minded enough to simply read the reasonings, instead of jumping to conclusions about our concerns.

http://conastpete.org/nl/CONA_April08.pdf.

[Don Mott]

Sorry! My words insinuated there were environmental reports on the Al Land site and I was incorrect in my wording. I should probably have stated possible environmental problems. My bad!

[Don Mott]

"extend the existing seawall into the man-made harbor" Gary it's not that easy and if you were aware of all of the regulations you would know that. BTW I don't think the Army Corp of Dupes is involved. If they are God forbid. I'm also not so sure that Tampa Bay is a man made harbor . Could you elaborate on that for me?

[Nick]

Don,

Are you kidding me? Did you read the articles that you posted on the blog, and if you did, did you fully comprehend what they meant? First of all Dredging is what they do to Channels that need to be deeper. This is what is done to ensure that channels are deep enough for vessels to get into a port. This usually involves picking up dirt from the bottom of an area and putting it in a deeper area where it is not used as fill but rather as a separate dumping ground. This is usually the case in areas more than 40 miles off the coast past the continental shelf where less that 1% of organisms in the ocean live. Also if your so worried about the effects of dredging in the Tampa bay area, then maybe you should go out to Upham beach just north of St. pete beach and tell me how that sand got there. What would happen in the case of the new stadium is fill dirt or some other material would be used to fill in the .6 acres for the stadium. This would come from an area not full of trash and debris and would be tested prior to dumping it. Also they wouldn't be able to dredge the seagrass because that would effectively eliminate it, rather they would have to dig it up and transplant it similar to how they have to transplant trees and plants on land.

Here is some info on areas that are currently being dredged in the St. Pete area and you can see the effects that this is causing as in sugar white pristine beaches:

http://www.pinellascounty.org/eNVIRONMENT/pagesHTML/coastalMngmt/sandKeyRnourish/cm110.html

Now on to the artesian well point, this basically means that an old pipe was drilled 60 feet into the bottom of the bay and it connects the St. Pete underground water table to the bay. This water is approximately 6 degrees warmer then the bay water in the vicinity. Manatees flock to warm water areas such as cooling fields for nuclear power plants, so I seriously doubt that and area over 1000 yards or 3000 feet away from a newly constructed seawall would cause harm to the Manatees when they routinely swim near radioactive material.

Here is some info on the manatees and the warm water. Please read to educate yourself.

http://googlesightseeing.com/2007/05/04/manatees/

So please the next time you post something on this blog, please read and understand the entirety of it prior to posting it. And lastly, if you really don't understand what your posting, then save us the time of reading yet another ignorant post. This will prevent people from looking at your so called facts and thinking that they might be worth something more than a 6 pack of charmin.

[Kyle]

Nick- growing up my Daddy told me "don't argue smart with stupid people". So if everyone could please "dumb it down" it would help the rest of us.
Nick is of superior intellect. Remember, he is an honors student.

[Chris Jenkins]

Nick, you've laid out your perspective fairly clearly, provided sources, and almost stayed civil (your ending kind of killed that part), but I'll address your points in a civil fashion as opposed to flinging another ad hominem, which seems to be the weapon of choice around here.

1. The kind of dredging you mention is one kind. It's not the only kind, and it's not the kind that would be performed to fill and build the area they need for the new stadium. All of their marketing material for the new site specifically mentions dredging and filling, so I'm not sure why you're engaging in a semantic defense against something they've said themselves they are going to do. And, there's no plan to add a sugar sand beach there...just extend the roadway.

2. Regarding Manatees, the issue is that a construction project there will both increase heavy marine traffic in the area, and cause turbidity, both of which affect not only the manatees, but every level of marine life in the area. If you'd read through any of the previous conversation on Troxler's blog, you would have a detailed picture of the impact of this. Additionally, the warm water that comes out of the power plants is not radioactive. It flows through pipes which are heated by radioactive energy. The radiation energy is converted to heat energy, and the heat energy is dispersed into the water. I don't expect you to be a nuclear physicist, but if you think Manatees swim in nuclear waste without issue, then maybe you should spend a little more time researching power plant operations, and the steps taken to make sure that the water discharged has no negative effects on the local ecosystem. It's certainly not setting off Geiger counters.

I'm afraid, my friend, that you were demonstrating exactly the kind of argument from ignorance that you made a point of berating in your closing statement. I believe your intentions are honest, and that you are a fan of the idea, but keep your argument based on facts, and make sure you understand the facts before you start accusing others of not.

Thank y