A hectic Tuesday afternoon

Lots of news in the past couple of hours:

1. The Chamber of Commerce's baseball task force met with the Times' editorial board this afternoon. We'll have a short story on that tomorrow. But to recap quickly, baseball task force co-chairman Steve Raymund said the right question surrounding this debate shouldn't be "Do you want the Rays to play at the Trop or at a waterfront stadium?" It should be, he said, "Do you want Major League Baseball in St. Petersburg." Raymund also said there's been much misinformation about the Rays' plan when it comes to financing and parking. The chamber study group released a preliminary report that suggest the parking situation downtown will be manageable. Raymund also called the financing plan credible. "The people that don't want the stadium are maybe looking for excuses," Raymund said. AND lastly, the chamber issued a letter to the City Council asking the group to tentatively approve the referendum June 5. Raymund pointed out that the council has until the middle of August to decide if the stadium question should be posed to voters. Raymund and chamber officials said the city should use that time to continue evaluating the proposal.
2. Next, the city released its financial analysis of the potential redevelopment of Tropicana Field. To summarize, the city ran three different projections (one based on the city's numbers, one based on the city's numbers factoring in some business displacement and one based on the developers' numbers) to see how much $$$$ the city and all taxing authorities would see out of the development.  At buildout, the estimated total annual taxes range from $23-million to $45-million. The estimated St. Petersburg annual taxes range from $4.3-million to over $7.6-million. If you're trying to do the math at home, the Rays say they will be asking for somewhere between $5-million and $6-million from the city from 2009-2016. That number will increase at about 3 percent a year starting in 2017 for the next 25 to 30 years. (I'm not sure if the city's projections factor in an escalation of taxable value at the Trop site).
3. The Rays met with the County Commission this afternoon in Clearwater. The only real bit of news there is that the county probably will not make a decision on extending the 1 percent tourist development tax until July. Theoretically, that shouldn't be much of a problem.
4. The city released a list of questions to the Rays related to the financing plan. It's many of the ones you probably have yourself. A sampling: Is the $150-million payment to be made upfront or over time?; How was the $70-million developer payment derived?; How much of the $55-million is expected to come from team payments for city parking spaces?

There are lots of documents to go along with these points. Hopefully I'll be able to have them scanned in and posted by tomorrow.

Comments

[Thomas]

This is a start, but in my opinion all of these items should be addressed completely prior to including this proposal on any ballot:

======================================
1- FINANCING PLAN

- Correct the public/private contributions to accurately reflect that the Rays commit $150M to the project and the other $300M comes from public, either via taxes or the proceeds of selling public property.

- Clarify if the Rays $150M is a contribution to construction or just an upfront lump sum rent payment.

- Clarify the Parking Revenue contribution.

- Validate the claims of public benefit. Start with the Sales Tax estimate of $104M over the next 35 years.

That would require $3M per year in sales taxes to meet that estimate.

Are they basing their estimate off of the full sales tax rate - including the state portion - or are they estimating based on only the city sales tax amount?

Assuming they erroneously estimated off the full sales tax rate and not just the city sales tax, it would still require over $42M in sales per year.

Of that $42M in sales activity, how much is actually new money as opposed to displaced sales taxes that would have been collect from other local retail outlets anyway (substitution effect).

- Will the Rays or the developers guarantee these estimates or are they just fabricated for PR purposes.

=======================================

2- LEASE TERM SHEET

- What will the rent amount be? (Assuming the Rays "contribution" is not just the sum of their rent)

- How will naming rights and advertising revenues be distributed?

- Will suite sales and premium seating revenues be shared with the city?

- Are revenues from non-baseball events still collected by the team?

=======================================

3- OMISSIONS

- The Al Lang site is also a publicly owned parcel. It is a premium waterfront location. Why is it just being given away for free?

- If the Al Lang site is redeveloped for a Rays stadium, will the Rays pay property taxes - or will it be a "city/county owned facility" to avoid them?

- What are the public costs associated with servicing a redevelopment of the Trop (new obligations for Police, Fire, Schools, et al.)?

=======================================

These are the types of hard questions that the Rays should be required to answer if they are to get this "plan" onto the ballot.

[Chuck]

Wow. POWW isn't going to appreciate that sort of ultimatum.

[Big Red Signs]

I am part of POWW and I am fully in favor of a November ballot question. Folks are spittin' mad over the prospect of another publicly funded stadium and the extension of taxes in this unstable economic environment.

The Rays have been considering this move for 3 years ( source, Times interview with Stu Sternberg) and they have yet to provide anything except the most sketchy of facts. The government and POWW have been asking for facts before any referendum goes forward.

OK - this is what the Rays want us to consider as their facts, perfect! Let's vote in November.

[get-smart]

Well, What did you expect? Sembler owns the chamber. Sembler uses the chamber to funnel money to pay off the politicians so his deals go through. No surprises here.

[Don Mott]

I like how the County Commission meeting was glossed over. If you watched it you would have seen there was quite a bit of distrust and skepticism from the Commissioners. They didn't roll over like the City Council did. Chairman Stewart who is also chairman of the tourism board expressed quite a bit of uneasiness and questions. They also expressed dissatisfaction with the way the city has handled negotiations without bringing them into the loop. The Rays have to meet the tourism board before the Commission votes. I'm fine if it goes to a public vote but things don't look real good for that happening.

[Kyle]

Place the blame where it is do. This economic downfall is caused by all the jackmelvins who voted for Bush in 2004. Save money on the Trop demo- fly a plane into it. It will fall to the ground like 110 stories did.

[Thousands of little RED Signs]

Back when the City Council stuffed Tropicana Field down the throats of the African American and White American throats, we did not have the right to "intiative and referendum" opportunities in our City Charter. But thanks to a group called CHOICE and almost 80% of the voters back then, we do now!

I have been all over this town and talked to all sorts of folks. I know what is going to happen.

Bring the referendum on.

The vote will be heard around the country.

The Rays will conclude their plans to leave town.

The City Council will feel the wrath of the citizens.

The citizens will move to protect our waterfront parkland.

So, want an election? Please.

Bring it on!

[Don Mott]

Kyle, That was very disrespectful and in poor taste.

[Kyle]

Sorry Don, I was just thinking that they would use explosives to bring the trop down. Your comment reminds me of the old story- "Get told a lie enough it becomes truth". This is the perfect section for this huh?

[Chuck]

Thank you Kyle. Please Please Please go around town and spread your word the same way you did in your post above. Marginalize your group even more.

Disgusting.

[Erick]

Let's invest in our community not the Rays, the Rays already have a stadium:

I support a different stadium:

Al Lang Field Community Ballpark

http://kc.wizards.mlsnet.com/t105/stadium/

Where a single franchise or other entities can rent the ballpark for outdoor concerts, soccer games, art shows, tennis tournaments, volleyball tournaments etc..

[Kyle]

I belong to no group. Anyone missing a goat?

[The Big Picture]

The BOCC meeting today was certainly telling as to how the Commissioners feel about being taken for granted by the Ray's. The largest portion of the public financing piece of the puzzle is being requested from the county.

The beach Communities feel that they have been asked to pay this "Bed Tax" and have not received the economic benefit that was predicted. The Big-C has already taken a position againt the extention of the Bed Tax. The only menbers of the Hotel & Reataurant Assoc. which are in favor of the extention are those In the Downtown St. Pete area. The rest of the county will likely be against. A look at the members of the Tourist Development Council Members does not bode well for the extention.

Chairman Bob Stewart "Mr. Baseball"( one of the leaders of the original effort to bring a team to the area) was the most critical of how the Ray's have presented this plan.

[Don in St. Pete]

All of the County Comissioners had questions and had clearly been hearing it from thier constituents. This is how democracy works, now if only our St. pete City Council ( other than the ever vigilant Herb Polson ) would get it and ask the same questions and demand answers. This stadium is a $750,000,000.00 boondoggle but they want us all to forget the details and the numbers of zeros behind the figure.

[H.L.Menchen]

The Chamber never saw a development they didn't like, so their credibility is long gone. the new rule is if the Chamber is in favor, vote against it! Numbers, smumbers! This is a carpetbagger scam that you and I will pay for! Public financing will be the bulk of the funding despite what the Times, Tribune and Chamber say. The only sanity to date has been the County Commissioners and Herb Polson, who have the courage to ask hard questions. The rest of the bobble head Council lacks the leadership and courage to deny a referendum if they vote yes. If they vote no, they will leave a legacy of not being bobble heads and may have some potential to be statesmen vs. politicians.

[Don Mott]

I am not a Wall Street financial wizard but I still cannot understand the Rays decision to keep the county in the dark for so long. But I think their decision backfired. They made some enemies as was evidenced at today's meeting. The majority if not all of the Commission was not happy.

[get-smart]

The Rays figure they can just bribe their way. It has been working so far. They have some vague outline that they call a financial plan. They are stealing our waterfront and Trop property and they call it a "contribution." What kills me is that they are even finding a way to embezzle the parking fees. What a bunch of crooks and we are letting them get away with it. They have the mayor,city staff and the city council kissing their butt. They got those idiots at the chamber/sembler agreeing with them. They have no concerns about the environment. No body knows how much it will cost to clean up the Trop. Well at least it is "mitigated." I guess that means if it costs $100M to finish the job now, they would say, "If we would have had to do everything including what we did in 1988 today, it would have cost $300M. So you see it's mitigated." That is the idiotic logic that you find on the pro side.

As for me, I am not against a new stadium. They can build one with their own money. I am against the destruction of the beautiful downtown waterfront. The whole point of a Waterfront Stadium is pure GREED and EGO. Nothing More, Nothing Less. This is easy math. They are pumping up the value to dump it and then brag to their cohorts how smart they are. That is it! The owners don't care about our America or St. Pete. They are cut from the same cloth as the criminal ex-governor of New York.

See! Everything makes sense.

[JudyToo]

"Do you want Major League Baseball in St. Petersburg."

Quite frankly, they can't stay here if they have to have that much money - and it is not $450 Million, it is closer to $1 Billion because no one is factoring in all the demolition, remediation, infrastructure, city services, interest and on and on. Way too much money.

ALL OF WHICH IS PUBLIC MONEY and they want you and me to believe that there's just no problem, all that new development of OUR land will pay for THEIR new stadium on our WATERFRONT.

And they can't stay here if they have to plop that thing down on our waterfront park land. They have a lot of nerve saying it's gonna look good on TV. That is OUR WATERFRONT and they can build their own stadium on THEIR land.

Heck yeah, sell 'em the Trop site and let 'em go! They can make all the profit redeveloping the site and use that money to build a new stadium!

Bring it on, let's vote in November and get it over with. All this childish bs is tiring.

And yes, we do get to vote again in November 2009 and that's when we get to replace half the city council and one whole mayor.

Even if the referendum is approved, that stadium will NEVER be built. Guaranteed. The city council is leaving themselves wide open for not one but a multitude of legal actions and challenges.

Hopefully they are not taken in by the chamber of development, uh, commerce. But then everyone is entitled to an opinion, so they finally came up with the same ol', which was predicted maybe four months ago.

Gosh, Aaron, how much are they paying you? I've never ever seen any one-sided reporting like this before! You are out-Timesing the Times!

I kinda like all those red signs - reminds me of Christmas! There must be ten thousand of those little cuties out there, everywhere - even saw some sprouting out in the county!

Wonder why we aren't seeing many of the blue and white ones? There's TWO groups handing them out but there sure aren't many of them!

[Don Mott]

Hi Aaron, I wonder why the largest contributor to the proposed new stadium got the the least amount of space in your latest entry to this blog. It appears as though you are showing some bias. I try not to be judgmental but sometimes it is very hard not to. Maybe I will change my mind when I see future posts, but for now you appear to be very biased. That is not a good thing IMO.

[Rick K]

You anti's are cracking me up. Some of you might be serious, mature, rational people, but this thread (most all the posts above this one) makes you come across as a gaggle of crackpots and loonies. Which is not to say you are crackpots, only that your posts have slipped over to that direction.

I watched the County Commission meeting live, then I watched it again. That was the first presentation I have seen by the Rays about these projects. I was impressed by the professionalism and decorum of the commissioners. Having made more than a few presentations in my life, I thought the Rays' representative did exceptionally well.

Much of what he said debunks a lot of the garbage being spewed by the anti's. He had answers for nearly every question (there were two questions he didn't answer, for reasons that were rather obvious).

The Commissioners did a really good job of putting questions to the presenter. Questions that the "anti's" want asked, but which many of the commissioners don't necessarily support. (This was noticable when Commissioners phrased questions, "What would you have me tell people who ask me .... ")

Now.... to the commenters in this thread.

Big Red Signs: Most of us understand that the principals of a business worth $300 Million would have a long process for a major change like this. You anti's (who do not like the proposal) can get indignant that the public will 'only' have one year to consider these proposals before voting on them, but most mature adults will regard a year as more than enough time, and few will be bothered by the fact that the Rays thought about this before going public.

Thomas: Keep trying.

Get_Smart: Get smart, please.

Don Mott: You saw what you wanted to see. I have asked two friends of mine from out of town (one of whom is a City Councilman and another who makes development presentations to government bodies) to look at the recording and give me their views. Of course, you will not be interested in anything which contradicts your prejudice, but that's okay.

Thousands of little red signs: Care to make a wager?

Erick: There is no shortage of soccer venues in this county. Your idea is simply silly. You may as well advocated that the Rays modify their plans to make it a Baseball Stadium and Live Dolphin rehabilitation facility. Not going to happen.

Big Picture: Before yesterday's meeting, I wouldn't have said this. Now I am willing to bet you that the County Commission and the Tourist Development Council both approve participation in the plan.

Don in St. Pete: Silly.

H.L: Sillier.

Don Mott: When all is done, most of us will look back and marvel at the genius of the Rays' timing.

Get_Smart: Please renew your scripts.

JudyToo: If you think this post from Aaron is slanted, you are beyond help. That is as straight reporting of the news as I can imagine. You seem to want the news slanted to your way, and it offends you that the news has been presented straight.

Aaron: Thanks for the great post, and this terrific blog!

[Mitch]

This is a no-brainer. We need to build this beautiful stadium! This will be a boon to St Pete and will keep the Rays here for a long time. They are a great team now and will be in the postseason soon. Major League baseball belongs in St. Pete. This city really needs to grow and not regress. I don't want to see weeds sprout in Al Lang, I want to see a beautiful new waterfront ballpark and thousands of summertime tourists spending their money in our city. GO RAYS!

[Scott Dennison]

Ok - all you folks with your little red signs; let's play out the scenario as it will occur if you get your way.

1) No referendum, or a referendum that fails.

2) Rays immediately open talks with MLB permission to relocate

3) Tampa steps forward and offers to build a stadium under similar terms and conditions as now proposed to St Pete and Pinellas County

4) Rays do relocate.

Then what? The trop sits empty as a constant reminder of what was and could have been

Then eventually some genius say's "lets tear it down and redevelop the area".

The city pays millions of dollars to do so, but then the clean up work costs hundreds of millions more. However without new tax revenues to pay for it the city issues new bonds to cover these costs.

Finally permits are issued to redevelop, but baseball is long gone. Whether you know it, acknowledge it, or deny it there is truth in saying that it is because of the Rays that the city's name is in every major newspaper, for over 6 months of the year.

This is a magnet to tourism. If you don't acknowledge that, you are simply uninformed.

Once they depart - some other city will get that exposure. Some other city, with their new ballpark will get the All-Star game and all of that TV exposure.

Some other city will get the benefit of tourism that follows baseball for over half the year.

St Pete will become the answer to a trivia question. The downtown will become a ghost town and eventually a shanty town for homeless people to set up their tents.

I was investing in/speculating on real estate in 1989-1991 in St Pete, when the announcement came that the SF Giants were not going to relocate. The value of real estate dropped 30% almost immediately.

When the Ray's came into existence, there was a civic pride that only comes from being identified as a pro sports town. From being major league.

I'm telling you that if this team leaves town, values will decrease even more than they have recently from the housing mess, and St Pete will go back to a sleepy suburb of Tampa.

Some of you will be delighted - until the bills come due. Then you will piss, moan and whine that as a city we should do more to attract something "big time" to our city. So we can showcase the beauty of our down town and of our waterfront. But the chance to do that will be gone.

Then as the real estate values continue to decline and as corporations who are attracted to major league sports depart for other parts of the area or state, jobs will go with them. Then what will you do?

You had all better look at all sides of this situation before you vote. There is a cost to vote in favor, yes. There is also a reasonable financing plan, that with negotiation can be improved more.

But you will also find there is a bigger cost if you let this group/team get away.

[Paul]

Rick K,

I'm not sure we watched the same meeting. You state: 'Now I am willing to bet you that the County Commission and the Tourist Development Council both approve participation in the plan.'

What did you not understand by County Commissioner Bob Stewart, who is also the Chair of the TDC, saying he was not happy with the request and the TDC is so far not happy either? What did you not understand about Susan Latvala saying 'St Pete always does this, they back us into a corner at the last minute.'

The BOCC handed Kalt his lunch. No if ands or buts about it.

Honestly, you throw out these jabs at others about how they are 'silly'. No one is right but you? Ok. Not saying you're wrong because it is your opinion... and everyone has one.

My opinion is we have wasted far too much time and money on this and the project should be killed now, today. The TDC will unlikely pass the bed tax as the Chair of the TDC, Bob Stewart, more than implied during the meeting that I watched. I'll see if there's a transcript and pull quotes if needed, but that's exactly what I heard. They ain't goin for this at all. This was Kalt's worse reception to date.

[Paul]

Hey Scott, so if we don't get the waterfront stadium, then downtown will fail? Interesting prediction. I do however, like your prediction that 'values will decrease even more than they have recently from the housing mess'... that sounds pretty darn nice to me! I own a few pieces of property here and only get to enjoy the homestead exemption on one. Yes, yes, yes!!! Decrease the taxable value on my property. Isn't that what we've been asking for, lower taxes? My tenants are about to go broke with the increases I've had to give them over the past few years of skyrocketing taxes... the property here is way overpriced. Bring back the affordable 90's.

I think if the cost of living were more affordable, via lower taxes and property values, there would actually be more jobs and corporations here willing to setup shop. The Rays are a baseball team. They play ball. Keep them out of my City and County coffers.

If we have 1 billion to spend, let's not. Let's spend a couple hundred million on redeveloping the Trop area, after the Rays leave, for either hi-tech business, or something that will draw creative forward thinking corporations... not retail or restaurant jobs.

[Rick K]

Paul:

Wanna bet that the TDC and PCC both approve the tax?

[Paul]

Rick, no. I don't bet. If I'm right, then fine. If you're right then, also, fine. We won't know for sure until after they decide. My prediction is they won't approve it.

If I have time, I'll find the exact spot in the video stream where Bob Stewart says the things I mention in my previous post.

[Rick K]

Paul:

I saw Bob's performance at the meeting. I know him pretty well. And I have also seen the numbers that the members of the TDC look at.

Which is why I am willing to bet.

Pay no attention to the smoke and loud voices.... look BEHIND the curtain.

[San Antonio Resident]

Chicken bone, chicken bone, chicken bone.

Say no to this referendum. It's perfect timing for me. I just bought a new glove and just started oiling it. I'm going to stick it under the wheel of my truck overnight for the next couple months. Come November, when you guys lose your team, I'll be ready for Spring Training for my new San Antonio Rays.

Actually, I think we'll change the name of the team because the Rays play in St Pete and they ruined it. We'll change it to reflect our community.

...maybe the San Antonio Border Hoppers.

Jinx on you St. Pete; I've already started saving for season tickets.

[Colorado Snowbird]

Time for rich seasonal residents to weigh in.

We own three condos downtown, and four on the beach. We also own some business properties in the downtown area. Colorado Springs is where we maintain our other residence, but we are legal residents of St. Petersburg, Florida. We travel to St. Petersburg about 12 times a year, spending nearly half of each year in Pinellas County. Typically, we "stay" on the beach, and venture downtown now and then during each visit. We also rent our condos by the week. Our downtown condos were purchased as speculative investments, which we originally intended to resell in the next few years.

From our perspective, the new 80 plus acres of exciting development, coupled with a new signature structure that will, for many people outside of St. Pete, define their image of the city is a no brainer.

We are very excited to learn additional details, because we think this idea is as good as they get. We are grateful to Aaron and the Times for providing this great resource.

[Don Mott]

"Of course, you will not be interested in anything which contradicts your prejudice, but that's okay" I beg to differ with you Rick I am interested in everything being said both for and against this deal. That is why I read these comments. What I'm not interested in is empty promises and wild predictions of economic impact. Of course economic impact cannot be proven but I use my gut instincts and the history of the Rays at the Trop to guide my judgement on this.

[Don Mott]

"I saw Bob's performance at the meeting. I know him pretty well. And I have also seen the numbers that the members of the TDC look at." I also use my judgement when I see quotes like this.

[TruthDetector]

I strongly suspect that Don Mott is not being truthful when he says, "I am interested in everything being said both for and against this deal. "