Chamber's letter to the city re: June 5 vote

Some folks have been asking to see the chamber's letter to the city from Tuesday. Well here it is.

The chamber also released traffic and parking recommendations. The chamber found:

• The Rays should focus their traffic/parking plan assuming a sellout of all 81 home games;
• The Rays may need to construct a parking garage of 1,700 spaces (city says 3,500, Rays say 800);
• Have a minimum of 5,500 parking spaces within 1/2 mile committed under written control reasonably guaranteeing their availability in 2012;
• Develop expanded formal transit plan from multiple satellitle lots covering an additional 1,000 cars (in addition to 2,000 vehicles coming from tropicana Field);
• More specific plans for seniors;

Comments

[get-smart]

The chamber/sembler is another joke. I guess I have to move. I can't believe I am surround by a bunch of idiots. They had six months to formulate an opinion based on study. What exactly did they study? They have no concerns about the environment. No concerns about the bulk and mass. They have no concerns about the disruption to the tranquility of the city. Oh! Wait! there was one thing.. yes..yes THE PARKING! They were out there with the jerk mayor counting parking spaces at the hospital.

I can't wait 'til tonight. The union will be back in town to party. Yea .. we'll knock some heads and pick-up some tail at Williams Park. Who knows Gary Grooms might be there in drag.

[Kevin]

I can't WAIT to buy my brand new $300,000 "Tropicana" townhome, next to a bad neighborhood, with a view of 2 interstate highways and the noise that go along with it. Just think of strolling down 3rd Ave S from my front door to watch a ballgame on the waterfront, if I don't get soaked by a thunderstorm, hit by lightning, accosted by bums or flat out mugged. Oh, and the thought of my children playing in contaminated soil, frollicking next to busy 1st Ave S just gives me tingles. I also can't wait to take my kids to their yearly camp at the St. Pete sailing center, where they can board their Lasers and sit motionless in the "dead calm" marina waters, in the shadow of a giant, concrete wall of a super-walmart-sized building with it's even larger sail blocking the afternoon westerly seabreezes from people trying to sail or just plain enjoy a stroll along the waterfront...I'm getting moist just thinking about it. The evening Shakespear performances on Demens Landing will be so much more enjoyable trying to hear them over the din of 34,000 screaming baseball fans, and an even louder P.A. system. But once those old farts in Bayfront Tower sue the city for ruining their peacefull enjoyment of their homes, the Rays will be forced to construct a wall all the way around the outfield to contain the noise prohibited by law. Just ask the owner's of Frescos about making noise next to Bayfront Tower, they'll tell you!! And then we'll be basicly back to a domed (or is it doomed) stadium that we already have in the first place, that doesn't piss its neighbors off and that baseball fans can acually access without disturbing the lives of the majority of the rest of us, those being non-baseball fans/residents and voters of this little city we call home.

[homer]

kevin,

could you please post your essay again, right below this comment of mine, just in case people didn't get a chance to read it the other 3 times it's been posted in the last 10 minutes? we don't want anyone to miss this important opportunity.

sincerely,
homer

[Kevin]

Oh, I'm soooo sorry Homer did I hurt your feelings? awwww poor baby.

[homer]

quite the contrary, kevin! i would only disagree about the inevitable wall around the stadium, as i think it will come in quite useful when sternberg and kalt unleash their new york zombie army on downtown st. petersburg as their final act of destruction against our city!

[get-smart]

You don't have to worry about that homer. If this deal ever gets done, they will sell the team and contracts and bolt. These guys only care about themselves. These guys are of the same ilk as the crooked ex-governor of New York.

[Erick]

The Rays are a BIG joke...They are number 2 in the division and fans don't show up, to get fans to come to games they have after game concerts, wrestling matches etc...How LAME is that?

[Ray F]

Erick,

Go back to Bahston where that kind of pointless argument fills the void of the inadequacies of living in a scum town.

Naturally, we'll see you when the Rays play the Sox again at the Trop.

[Sean]

Kevin,

Your ignorant. I bet you are worried about them putting the long john silvers logo on the roof to huh? The stadiu is going to be a sweet site. Why don't you care about all the condos that are springing up along the water everywhere in the area? Don't be scared of change. Sometimes it is a good thing. St. Petersburg needs to grow before it becomes just a place to retire and this will help it.

Erick,

If you looked at attendance for other losing teams that finally started to win you would notice that a half season of winning doesn't change attendance numbers. Playoff games will sell out and then next season you will have a much larger jump in attendances. Do a little research next time.

[Thomas]

Dear Sean,

First off, when calling someone else ignorant it is best to not be illiterate while doing it. You mean to say "Kevin, you're ignorant". You would use the contraction for 'you are' in that situation.

Next, you tell Erick to research MLB attendance patterns. However, it's clear that you are the one that needs to have a look at the numbers. Please see the Atlanta Braves, Oakland Athletics, Florida Marlins, Arizona Diamondbacks, or San Diego Padres for examples of teams that have improved tremendously (even winning the World Series in some cases) yet they could not sell out playoff games nor did they have any type of increase in attendance the following year.

We are left with no choice but to disregard your post as complete gibberish.

[Kevin]

The people who really care about this city took time off from work, cancelled dinners, etc, and are sitting here at the City Council chamber and so far by my count, the speakers have been 78 opposed, 10 for and 2 on the fence re: the stadium. These are the voters speaking in a landslide. Now it's time for the Rays' shills to spin that into "the sky is red". Sorry guys, not gonna happen.

[Jon McPhee]

Time for the Rays Lovers to start spinning the flavor of the Council session tonight.

I could only stay and listen through speaker number 31. But from that sample of the hundreds who signed up for their three minutes of time to try to explain their feelings about the Big Deal and their reasons for or against and their concerns about the complexities that the Council seems to be glossing over, the nays had it about 2 to 1. The final tally will be at least interesting, if not compelling. As Rick would say, “it is revealing.” I was impressed by the number of working men and their ladies who showed up, to be told by some guy in expensive duds with a $200 haircut where to stand, where to walk and how to hold their signs, and the way the “blue” signs got posted all over the city’s property.

I liked not only the speech of Gary Grooms, who’s posted here occasionally, but what he was up to immediately after he performed. His pitch is that this is “our” chance to “brand” this city, presumably by building the Sail to punctuate, if not outshine and dominate, what the City downtown already seems to have in the way of livability and attractiveness. He is sure that the Sail will draw people from around the planet to move into, or at least visit, what I am told is already the most densely populated county in Florida (though maybe the effects of the present economy and tax burdens will thin us out a lot. Trailer homes in Tennessee for all our teachers and nurses and maids and yard boys? Maybe low-cost “guest worker” housing on the Toytown site?)

I’m afraid I must have wandered for a second, because the image that popped up was of a St. Pete resident, roped like a steer, with the high-fivin’ white boys in the ten-gallon hats and thousand-dollar boots yukking it up while applying a red-hot “Rays” iron to the truss-ee’s flanks. Branded indeed, and for good.

Mr. Grooms, who is indeed impeccably groomed and coiffed and tailored, like the balance of the upper-end project boosters, finished his speechifyin’ and immediately exited to the veranda of the Council building, whipped out his communicator, and started calling up his buddies to tell them how well he had done, that his was the best presentation, and that the Council members who had chatted and gazed into space while those agin’ers were yakking, sat up and paid rapt attention, hanging on his every glib pronouncement.

I was sitting in one of the overflow rooms, watching the speakers on little TV sets, so maybe I missed the fine detail. I don’t doubt that most council members were just up there enduring, until the show was over and they could go wherever. But one hopes that the kind of self-aggrandizement and self-delusion typified by Mr. Grooms is typical of the Rays boys. The big questions still remain: Why are we as a City giving a stadium to some guys who can afford to buy their own? Why does it seem that the Council just isn’t interested in understanding just what all the pieces of this thing look like before they buy into it? Is the Council going to just eat up the stuff the Rays owners are dishing out as “financial plans,” and ignore the obvious flaws in how the owners want them to count things, like public assets sold and the proceeds added to the “deal” as a “private payment?”

If nothing else, this is one absolutely great exercise of a civics lesson. We should all learn a whole lot about how our government and community are supposed to operate, and how they actually do operate.

The price of keeping our republic is eternal vigilance against those who would corrupt the exercise of the state’s power. Keep speaking up, folks – it may not do any good at this stage of the proceedings, if past is prologue, but it’s a long way to Tipperary, and it ain’t over ‘til it’s over.

[gary grooms]

HI Jon - your speech was very memorable also. Maybe you should consider professional speaking as a career.

[Matthew]

If these comments are supposed to be about the Chamber of Council letter, it might interest you to know that this was merely a letter by only four of the committee. It is not the report. The report will not be out for some time.

[Andy]

Thomas,

I actually looked at attendance patterns, something which you clearly did not.

The Atlanta Braves are one of the two best teams of the past 20 years. They have been good pretty much every year since 1991. Look at their attendance in 1990, and again in 1993, and note how attendance had quadrupled. They have averaged at least 29,000 fans a game in every year since.

Oakland finished last in their division in 1998, immediately improved the following year, and won their division in 2000. Their attendance went up every year from 1998-2003 from an average of around 15,000 a game to 27,000. The biggest drop since that time occurred last year, when they averaged 23,726 and not so coincidentally finished 18 games out of first.

The 2002 Marlins drew just over 812,000 total fans (around 10,000 a game) On their way to the World Series title, they drew over 520,000 total fans (an average of over 65,000 a game) in 8 playoff games alone. By 2004, regular-season attendance had doubled to 22,000 a game. Attendance has gone down since, but its because the team has been horrible.

The Diamondbacks have had good attendance since day one, something that the Rays may have been to claim if not for horrible mismanagement of the past. Yet even they were able to pull in an additional 5,000 fans per game in 2002, over what they drew on their way to their World Series title in '01.

San Diego has been a fairly good team this past decade, and their record reflects it. Their worst attendance this decade came in 2003, when they lost 98 games and finished 36.5 games out of first place. They still managed to pull 25,000 a game. In 2005, they won a division title, and averaged 35,000 a game in the process.

In summary, every team you mentioned has shown a substantially better ability to draw fans either the year of, or the year(s) following a playoff appearance. And with the exception of the Marlins, Tampa would love to trade attendance figures with any of them.

Want to cite any more brilliant examples to prove that winning ballgames doesn't bring more fans to the park?

With the exception of an attendance spike that is usually felt for the first few years of a new facility, every team not named the Cubs must win to draw fans. I applaud the Rays for doing so this year, and hope they continue to do so in the future, whether or not they get a new stadium.

Feel free to correct any grammatical errors I have made.

[A little red sign]

A little red sign says it sure feels good to have won the public hearing this evening.

Thanks to al the citizens who came out to support POWW and to tell the City Council no to the proposed waterfront stadium.

There were many eloquent and passionate speakers. And I must add, our speakers made the most pointed arguments backed up with facts, logic and overwhelming good common sense.

I was really proud of the diverstiy of thought and the individual determination to stay on message.

Good job POWW allies and supporters.

Good job indeed.

Go POWW.

PS: Stay tuned now as POWW gears up for the next phase of our tactical operations. You will all get your instructions soon.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Some questions for poww.

Yesterday when i got home from work, i was getting out of my car when a man in his 40's walking door to door wanting to put a little red sign in my yard. Here is how that conversation went.

Man: Hi i am rich, I am with poww.
Me: Hello
Man: I would like to tell you about the things the city and The Rays are doing to ruin our great city.
Me: Lets hear it. (This guy has no clue he is in the Lion's den)
Man: Did you know that if this plan goes through its going to make your property taxes go up an $100 over the next 4 years.
Me: Really?
Man: Yes! After the 4 years its going to go up over $400 dollars!
Me: Wow!!!!
Man: We are trying to help you guys so you don't lose your homes because of the tax increase.
Me: Really? Thank You.
Man: Do you know that if they build this massive stadium it will hurt the Manatees in the bay? Also the seagrass will be ruined.
Me: Lets talk about the taxes real quick sir.
Man: Ok, what would you like to know?
Me: How many people have you said this to today and the last few weeks walking around passing out signs?
Man: I have given out over 600 signs in the last month.
Me: Using the same sales pitch?
Man: Yes, people are worried about there taxes.
Me: So you are lying to these people?
Man: Lying?
Me: Yes Lying!
Man: What do you mean?
Me: Where does it say our taxes are going to go up?
Man: (Looking at me like he just walked up to the wrong house) Umm. I don't know.
Me: You don't know?
Man: The Rays are hiding all the facts.
Me: How can you say my taxes are going to go up?
Man: Thats just what my organization thinks.
Me: Really? No guarantees!
Man: Nope thats just what my organization thinks.
Me: So what your organization is doing is lying to the people that haven't followed this topic in the news? Then getting them to put a red sign in their yard?
Man: Sir we are not lying.
Me: Then what are you doing?
Man: Trying to get support for the poww.
Me: You have come to the wrong house.
Man: Well thank you for talking with me.
Me: Sir i would like you to go get in your car and leave my neighborhood. Actually i am going to get into my car and follow you out.
Man: I am sorry that i bothered you today.
Me: Do you really work with the poww?
Man: Yes i support them.

Man from poww leaves.
Guys i know what the poww is fighting for and thats their right to do so. But the problem is they are lying to people to get support. That really pisses me off. I know that poww are going to come on this blog and say that they aren't supporting this kind of action. But my problem is they have misinformed people backing them and lying to citizen that have no clue. I just don't know why this has to happen this way. Also thats why there are so many signs in peoples yards. Thats why poww looks like they are winning. They are lying about what the proposal is.
I can't wait to hear what Don, Jon, Little red sign, Judytwo, and all the other anti's have to say about this.

[K]

Leroy - I don't think POWW is lying to anyone. I've heard Kathleen Ford, etc. talk about the Rays proposal and nothing that they have said has been a lie, at all. I do not formally support POWW but I am well educated and have reviewed the Rays proposal and I am a "red signer". If there are folks out there that support POWW and do not have a grasp on what the real situation is with the Rays, they need to go back to POWW and listen again or stop approaching the general public.

Just so you know ... my take is, this is a private enterprise, trying to get something for nothing from the City, attempting to get a stadium for free (look long and hard at their proposal and what they had told the City about it... the Rays still don't have all the details worked out)! If what they want happens, they will be drawing tax $$ away and essentially instituting a new tax by extending the beach tax past its current sunset date. And, there is no significant, concrete evidence, support or guarantees for what the Rays include in their proposal, i.e. that redeveloping the Trop will, in reality, infuse the city/county with more property taxes. I'm sorry but in this day and age of a depressed real estate market, an excessive amount of condos and townhomes that are on the market and new buildings that remain less than half of these new residential projects sold or not any sold at all ---- what makes the Rays think that the redevelopment will actually bring the property tax $$? If you can't sell the property, that means that the developer or whoever is holding the property will eventually be unable to pay the property taxes ...... Think about these things long and hard before you put 15 blue signs up in your yard!

[Ray F]

Gary Grooms,

I watched the meeting last night and I heard you speak in front of the council. I thought you did a great job and you hit the point perfectly.

I wish more people that are against for the wrong reasons heed your words about making our city a premier destination with this project.

You definately came across far more learned than most of the 'cons'. Sure, they had their suits and prepared speaches, but you spoke from the heart and that's what seperates us from them.

[Erick is a LOSER]

Erick, the fan of euro-kickball is talking baseball? LOL
What's wrong Erick, still pissed that the 14-15 fans who alledgedly supported euro-kickball in this area weren't enough to stop the Mutiny from getting contracted?

PS) go post another one of your pipe-dreams about how we should have a stadium like KC does for ... SOCCER!! LOL
BUHAHAHAHA

[Rick K]

Gary, I also saw you speak last night and thought you did a good job. I was multi-tasking while the live stream was playing, so I often missed the names of the Anti's who got up and banged the same points over and over and over.

Leroy, of course POWW is lying. The leaders of POWW have been quoted and described by none other than Aaron of the Times as willingly trying anything and everything to defeat these proposals. They see this as a very important issue and know (well, most of them know) that it cannot be undone once it is set in motion.

Right now, it looks like they get one shot at this, and they'll employ any tactic or technique to prevail. If that means misrepresenting themselves to gain "supporters" or misrepresenting the size of their membership, that is okay with them, because they think the Rays are cheating and lying to hoodwink the public.

If these arguments were taking place in a court of law, many of the "anti" arguments would be ruled out.

Some of them keep ranting that this deal involves a public gift of publicly owned property to a private business. There are three problems with this argument which render it pointless.

First, the current arrangement at the Trop and at Al Lang and at the Pier are all the same thing, the public owns the land and leases it to a private business because the public has decided that these businesses produce public goods. There are private businesses at the Airport, at public marinas, public golf courses, public libraries, and, as mentioned, at the Pier and the two existing ballparks.

Second, the deal the Rays have proposed is not a transfer of ownership of the Al Lang site to the team, but a lease arrangement where the City or County would still own the real estate. In truth, the deal the Rays are proposing is BETTER for the public than the deal the Tampa Sports Authority gave the Bucs and the Lightning, who control non-sports events and receive parking and concession revenues at their respective venues. As private business lease of public stadia deals go, the offer the Rays have made is better for the City than the "standard" sports deal of this type.

Third, there are actually TWO redevelopment deals being proposed here. One of the two deals takes 86 acres of greatly underutilized land in the core of downtown which is currently publicly owned (producing no property taxes) and permits that land to be privately developed using free market capital.

Importantly, some very sophisticated developers (who are not in business to lose money) have analyzed the market in St Pete and determined that the Trop Field site is well suited for a retail development roughly equivalent to the International Mall in Tampa, along with a couple of Hotels (A high end one and a mid-range hotel), many restaurants and bars, and housing units which will attract thousands of additional residents and workers to the City who do not currently live/work downtown.

In a Court of Law, I doubt if a judge would permit a lawyer for the Anti's to describe these paired redevelopment proposals as an effort to give public land to a private business, because that is not at all what is being proposed.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Rick and Ray I would love to sit down with the two of you and talk about our city and what we can do to educate the public. I would like to get in touch with the two of you. Lets figure something out.

[gary grooms]

Hi Rick, Ray and Leroy,

I would love to get with you guys if possible. You guys have probably all eaten at Z Grille. I know the owners and staff there pretty well. If each of you would stop by and give your contact information to the folks there and tell them to get it to me I can get us all together.

Thanks for your comments about last night.

[Ray F]

Will do. Gary. I'm gonna be at the game tonight too. Impossible to find you there though in the crowd.

The comments are no problem. I'm listening to the guy from POWW that was on Ron and Ian yesterday.

Boy, he's the last person I would have speaking for me.

It was the last person to speak last night at the meeting. Talk about ignorant. At least no what AND WHO your're up against.

[city has no class]

The city is a joke. Why do the Rays want to play there anyway? Seems the citizens don't want them there. Leave St Pete alone and maybe, if they're lucky, it will evolve from the rock it's been under for so long. There is nothing St Pete has to offer that makes it a viable city for anything. Oh, I'm sorry, it offers 10 city blocks for noisy little cars to race around it. Day after day St Pete and it's citizens shows why it's second class city. THIS is why it will always come after Tampa....as in TAMPA-St Petersberg area.

[Leroy Jenkins]

The Z Grille is amazing! I will stop by there tonight after the Rays win and give them my info. There will be about 20 Lets Build a Ballpark people sitting in section 147 if anyone would like to stop by and talk about the stadium proposal.

[A little red sign]

Sorry Leroy Jenkins, POWW does not go door to door to give away yard signs. They have many distribution centers across town and folks go there to pick up a sign or two or many.

They also sign wave and give out signs.

They also go to community meetings and give out signs.

Just thought a few facts would help your blogging.

[Rick K]

Based upon the number of voters who have elected to display red signs, we can make the following observation.

Currently, About 3 - 4 % of City Residents are so fired up about being a loud "NO" vote, that they opt to display the signs.

An even smaller number of City residents are as fired up on the "pro" side that THEY opt to display pro stadium signs.

A lot of the naysayers find comfort in those numbers....