Fans for Waterfront Stadium parking slideshow

The pro-stadium group Fans For Waterfront Stadium today released a Power Point slideshow meant to allay some of the parking concerns associated with a new ballpark. The slideshow was created from photos taken during the Sunday running of the Honda Grand Prix of St. Petersburg, when city leaders estimated 50-to-75,000 people were at the race downtown.

Fans For Waterfront Stadium says the slideshow is evidence that plenty of parking potentially exists downtown to accommodate a 34,000-seat ballpark.

Make up your own mind. View the slideshow (if you have Power Point on your computer) here.

Comments

[voter]

Hi Aaron,

When I click on your link nothing comes up. Is this my computer or the link? I would be interested in viewing this.

[Jesse]

Link isn't working for me either. Can you post some pics or create a slideshow within your website so we can view without downloading?

[Paul]

Ok, I looked over the slideshow... nice pictures, someone has a decent camera. First off, how can we verify the pictures were taken at the stated date/time? They could be fake, but likely aren't, I'll go on the side of trust.

I work downtown and am quite familiar with the alleys, streets, garages, etc. My first take is, anyone who is not very very familiar with downtown would never know about most of these spots that pictures were taken of. My guess is people followed whatever signs were up on the highways directing traffic to where ever it is they were directed... perhaps even the Trop itself. I don't recall seeing any pics of the Tropicana Field lot in there.

[Adam]

"anyone who is not very very familiar with downtown would never know about most of these spots that pictures were taken of. My guess is people followed whatever signs were up on the highways directing traffic to where ever it is they were directed... "

Yet they were still able to find parking, and plenty of extra spaces were available. That's the whole point of the slideshow.

"I don't recall seeing any pics of the Tropicana Field lot in there."

Check again. There are about 5 or 6 photos of vacant lots at the Trop. That means that a new stadium needn't rely on the Trop site for parking.

[Aaron Sharockman]

Sorry about the problems opening the file. Our tech wizards are working on a solution. Please stand by!!!

[Ron]

The fact that the race was on a Sunday, when no downtown workers or college students were commuting helped. It also rained prior to and at the beginning of the race. Anyone who attends the race every year will vouch for the significant difference in attendance at this years event.

[Paul]

Adam, you're right... there are pics of the Trop. I meant an overview shot, showing the whole parking lot/area, not just one or two unfilled corners. And now that I look at this again, this was a rainy Sunday, meaning, likely a slow downtown day due to the weather. The Grand Prix is one weekend a year. All other event organizers, including the Airfest people over in Tampa, knew about the race and very well likely planned their events so they would not overlap with the Grand Prix. Wasn't Airfest and the Grand Prix on the same weekend last year and both events said 'oops sorry won't do that again?'

My two questions now are, just where are all the cars?? I don't see any 'look they all fit nicely here' pictures... I mean we're supposedly talking about 30,000 cars or so? Just where are they? Some magical parking spot I'm not aware of? My other question... you do realize this is one single event, that was highly publicized, and the logistics were mitigated so as not to cause a jam up downtown? We are talking what, 80 home games? There will be overlap, alot of it and it will hurt already existing, traditional and historical events. Like I said before, don't mess up a good thing, meaning our beautiful downtown and its success. You got the Trop, you got 80+ acres to work with. That's not enough? how can that not be enough? Other teams would kill for this kind of prime acreage, and interstate access. Use it, or loose it. I'd personally like to see this end tommorrow after the Rays owners so courteously 'allow' us to see their finance plan.

[Richard]

In 2007 125,000 people attended the Grand Prix, so the 50-75,000 estimates for this year take weather into account.

So assuming the stadium only seats 35,000 - and we handled 50-75,000 at the Grand Prix with what appears to be signifigant excess capacity - it would seem there is plenty of parking for baseball fans, students, and downtown dwellers alike.

That said - one big bottleneck I can think of is First Friday on a gameday. Both are pretty big draws. But even then, being somewhat familiar with the size of the lots mentioned I don't see capacity being a problem. Some folks will have to walk a few blocks - but hey, that's city living.

Not to mention, that walking time is when they'll see the other bars and restaurants St. Pete has to offer. That's the economic generator missing from the Trop site.

[Paul]

Richard, the Grand Prix was ONE weekend. You got 50,000 people coming into downtown and if I'm an event organizer, I'm looking for ways to not overlap the race. You have 80 home games and that just doesn't happen wiht the hundreds of downtown events we have each year. Events will overlap each other and alot of them won't be on a well publicized, rainy Sunday.

Not to mention the stadium will be as tall as the BOA building. I drove down 1st ave south today, towards the water, and pointed at the BOA building and told my buddy, 'see, that's how tall the new stadium will be'... he was floored. I'm sure if you understood just how big this stadium will be, you'd agree, 'they have 80+ acres to work with over at the existing Trop'.

I may be onto a new yard sign with that one. At least a bumper sticker.

[Don Mott]

I really liked the post race traffic pics. 50-75,000 fans and only 5 to 10 cars on the streets? Wow was David Copperfield there? I also like how there were no time/date stamps on the pics.

[Chuck]

Hahaha. It's all a scam apple juice man!

What a joke.

[Chris Jenkins]

Chuck, your humor and sarcasm aside, you seem like a logical and intelligent guy. Chew on this for a moment, and tell me what you think.

1. Gary Grooms is the guy who told me I was off base to suggest that FFWS was anything other than a corporately funded shill organization for the Rays.

2. Gary Grooms is the author of the powerpoint slideshow now hosted on the FFWS site (See the file's properties, if you didn't know that part).

3. Gary Grooms, during the 2008 Grand Prix in St. Petersburg, was scouting parking locations to shoot pictures of for a stadium based slideshow? Huh? Does that sound to you like something a baseball fan does, or something that a paid consultant with a business stake in the deal does? Easy enough question...did anyone else go take parking lot pictures that day?

I won't belabor the fact that the actual parking areas used are not pictured, since someone else already mentioned it. I will note that by dropping the pictures in a PowerPoint slideshow, they have effectively masked the time stamp of the photos.

So, Gary, I'm calling you out. You wanted to try and make a liar out of me while simultaneously engaging in some awfully strange behaviour. You defend FFWS because you are part of them, and your actions as part of them are remarkably similar to the actions of someone who is a paid consultant.

I have several types of data integrity software which can read photo files and establish the date and time of photo creation, give details about the camera used, and based on a complicated set of mathematical algorithms, determine the original photo file creation date. Release the original photos used to compile the slideshow, and I will certify for you whether or not the pictures were taken on the day and time in question, and whether they have been altered. That will answer the question for those who think the pics might not be legitimate.

My own question still remains: If you have no paid stake in the deal, why would you be out there shooting these pictures to begin with?

There's quite a bit more data that can be pulled from this PPT slide, I just haven't had time to analyze it in depth. I will do so this evening.

[Al Lang Neighbor]

Actually the stadium won't be as tall as the BOA building - statements like that play fast and loose with the facts.

The only item of that height in the plan is the tower which holds the translucent sails - and it has a mere 17X21 foot footprint at it's base and gets more narrow as it ascends.

And while yes, we have hundred of downtown events - I would categorize many as "negligible impact" with obvious exceptions (like the Grand Prix). But as many of those events happen outside baseball season - they don't really impact this discussion.

First Friday likely represents one of the more complex recurring concerns.

[gary grooms]

Hi Chris,

Again, FFWS has to do the PAC filings so all their finances are pretty transparent. Obviously, the Rays are more likely to offer support to FFWS than POWW. To my knowledge there have been no cash payments from the Rays to FFWS - there have been as I said before "in kind contributions"

As to me being a paid consultant. It just isn't the case. I'm not sure how I could prove that to you - but I'm open to suggestions.

I decided of my own free will to take those pictures that day - neither the Rays or FFWS knew I was doing it. I have been living downtown for the last four IRL races and knew that there was an abundance of parking. After hearing so much talk about this supposed lack of parking I figured after the race no one would talk about parking anymore. However, I took the pictures in case people weren't convinced.

I did take pictures of some of the actual parking lots used. McNulty and the Northern Trust decks are about as close to the track as you can get. Tropicana Field probably had 4,000 cars total. The lots at USF were full from what I could tell. The purpose of the photos wasn't to show the thousands of cars parked - but to show the thousands of empty spaces.

We can apply a little common sense here. If you zoom in on slide 5 you can see the checkered flags. This doesn't mean it was Sunday - but the rain that shows up by slide 24 or so does. On slide 20 you can see the clock at the B of A Tower reading 2:20. It does not appear to be 2:20 am. In slide 14 it shows the parking rate sign at McNulty posted at $10 - go ask Debbie in the booth when the last time they charged $10 to park. In slide 16 it shows the $5 sign at the Lanier lot - go ask the same question. Slide 46 shows $10 being charged at South Core - ask them the same question.

We can meet up and walk around a bit like I offered before. You can come up to my condo and I'll let you pull the SD card out of the camera yourself and then I'll let you use my computer to burn your own CD of the originals - I'll even give you the blank CD. BTW, on the CDs released to the media, City Council, the Rays etc. I included all the originals.

[Chris Jenkins]

Awesome. I appreciate your measured responses, Gary, and I also appreciate that you see why the question would be raised. Since "proof" of a secret cash based deal, or proof of no such thing, is impossible to render, I'll take at face value your responses. If you would send me just one of the originals via email, that would be plenty for me to run my algorithm analyzers against, and provide rock solid certification for my cynical soul. :)

My question then is this...if there were 30,000 people there that day, where are they all parked? Clearly, what you showed does not show that. Additionally, if traffic and parking were so flawless that day, why is the 4th of July celebration downtown such an utter traffic and parking debacle? Do you posit that there is some cutoff, and if so, what is it, and do you think the baseball games could draw a similarly sized crowd?

I've talked to JoEllen at the Globe, and she would be happy to host the beginning of a mobile round table discussion evening. I'd be happy to represent the "Lots of problems with this deal" side, and I think you would be an ideal representative for the "seems cool to me" side.

Thanks again for putting a real human face on the other mind set, and not just another poo flinger. :)

[Chris Jenkins]

P.S. JoEllen thinks Howard Troxler should be the moderator, but I told her I'm not sure if he wants to get in that deep...we've already ruined the carpet in his online foyer... ;)

[Don Mott]

Hi Gary, here's the other thorn in your side, meaning me. I would like to know, as I asked before how the post race pics showed just 5 to 10 cars on the streets. I have a hard time understanding how the streets could be be empty with seventy to one hundred thousand fans filtering out. Care to explain?

[gary grooms]

Hi Chris,

I'll be glad to email you any photo you want. Just tell me where to send it and what slide number you want.

Cars parked that day at the Trop - (about 4,000 is my guess) Baywalk, Southcore, Northern Trust, McNulty where all essentially full. There were a handful of surface lots like the ones next to Publix and USF's parking garage and lots were probably full, On Saturday, the surface lots at USF appeared to be full - but the garage was not.

As you pointed out the 4th of July is a debacle. I don't know how many people come downtown for that - but there isn't a traffic / parking plan in place that keeps everyone from trying to get to the waterfront for a good distance north and south. It seems everyone wants to drive in just before the fireworks and leave immediately afterward. With the race they pulled people off the highway and directed them to the Trop lots. Last night for the Yankee game they started sending people downtown to park and shuttled them up to the Trop. In a nutshell the "secret" to the race that would also be the strategy for the new stadium is dispersed parking and shuttles.

I would be willing to be involved in the round table discussions - I just need to know where and when.

[gary grooms]

Don,

Chris is going to verify the time and date stamping on my photos. They are what they are. The worst traffic was probably around the USF lots. People get to these various lots at staggered times with multiple points of ingress and egress which smoothes out the traffic. One reason people are struggling so hard to understand the parking is they envision the Trop lots with 7,000 cars on the same hunk of asphalt with a very limited number of ingress and egress points. At the end of a game at the Trop everyone gets to their cars about the same time to fight for the few exit points.

[Jon McPhee]

Is it just me, or is this parking issue largely about re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic? Follow the money, folks, follow the money.

[Chris Jenkins]

Hi Gary!
Email to cjenkins@flmediasolutions.com

I was trying to get a round table together for this weekend, but unfortunately, there simply doesn't seem to be much interest in having a real, substantive, conversation face to face about it.

Any suggestions about that?

We have a venue, a plan, a hostess, and maybe (if we can convince him), a moderator. Plus, to be perfectly frank, I would just love to hang out with you guys to re-establish the fact that we're all people here, all citizens of this city (or at least, most of us...), and to blow away the stereotypes connected to my side of the argument fence.

Gary and I are down for a face to face...and I still have Saturday evening open. Let me know if any of the rest of you are interested...otherwise, I'll head out and play some Hold'em. :)

[gary grooms]

Hi Chris,

I sent you one of the photos. I'll send you others if you wish.

Maybe we should just pick a time and date that works for us and then post something on all the various threads. Aaron might be willing to help promote the round table.

It appears that even though we might disagree on this proposal we both want to do what we think is the right thing for our community. Starting from there and then discussing things in a professional manner is a worthy goal.

Thanks for your more reasoned approach to this issue.

[Chris Jenkins]

For the record, folks, if the sample photo Gary sent me was faked, it's the finest fake I've ever seen. Digital signatures all check out as being shot at 04/06/08, 2:19PM, on a run of the mill digital camera I would expect the average Joe to sport. I've got my validation software running deep analysis on it now, but to my very trained eye, it appears un-altered.

It seems the slide show does a decent job of showing that there's some mitigation of traffic and parking possible. There's some give and take. The Grand Prix didn't fill every single spot, but July 4th does and then some.

How feasible is it really to provide the same level of traffic management as the Grand Prix on 81 home game nights, and how much would that cost the city to provide in law enforcement and support personnel? Does anyone have any numbers on traffic mitigation costs to the city (read: to the taxpayers) for the IRL?

P.S. Gary, true to my word, I'll accept proven points, and adjust my perspective of the overall situation accordingly. I think some of the people spitting all the fire and ice would not only be more polite in person, but also have to face the reality that baseless assumptions and vapid generalizations of the "other side" are for the most part completely wrong. Polarization kills discourse. Like the AARP says...divided we fail. If we all can't have a real conversation on a topic, and explore it as citizens together, then the politicos and developers basically have free rein, and that, my friend, is simply unacceptable.

[get-smart]

I was downtown on the Sunday in question. I was on my bicycle. May roads around the course were closed. The traffic was very light and it did rain in the afternoon. I believe the photos are genuine. I don't believe the race attendance was as large as stated, though. Many people avoided the city that day because of the race.

I was downtown for the tree lighting. I was a madhouse there was no parking to be found and traffic was at a stand still. I would say there were 15-20,000 people there.

[Mike]

(I'm back, as a kinder, gentler Mike.)

Could it possibly be that when there is a desirable event (e.g., race, game, fireworks, concert, etc.) that there would be traffic hassles? That's what happens in cities, especially as they grow up. Every place I've lived between growing up here and moving back here has had traffic during events. It's a sign that people want to be here, but it sucks. And ours has worsened over the years throughout our Renaissance.

It is incumbent on the Rays to do a better job elucidating from where these spots are going to come, but I certainly think downtown is due for some new garages, regardless of the stadium being built or not. Hearing gripes about bad parking during some of these other events tells me that the city needs more parking one way or the other! Now's as good of a time as any to get on that.

What I really think this aspect of the debate underscores is the necessity for real mass transit in this town and in the area/region.

I want this stadium, but I'd give it all up for rail-based mass transit ...

P.S. It's nice to see the histrionics on both sides chill back a bit after the first round of financial questions were addressed yesterday!

P.P.S. And the Rays keep winning, to boot!

[gary grooms]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for taking the time to "authenticate" the photos.

On events like the 4th of July and the tree lighting it isn't that every space is taken. It's more that we do these things for a matter of minutes one time a year with no real plan in place to handle them. For the tree lighting there were a ton of spaces available in McNulty and I don't think they even bothered to operate the Northern Trust lot or the Lanier lot at 5th and 1st.

For the fireworks I think all the lots around me were indeed full.

The race works because we have a longer event and we set up for it. We produce a plan, set up the electronic signs, put some officers at corners etc. Yes, all this costs money don't know how much - but I thought I saw a pretty sizable number on this one time - I think over $100,000. I believe the City's contribution for having the race is paying for and handling the traffic. The race involves 3+ days of traffic management for more hours than you have to do for a baseball game. For baseball you would set up your traffic and parking personnel about two hours before the game. Once the the game is underway A lot of your parking personnel can go off duty - leaving a few people around to provide some parking lot security. A little bit before the game lets out your traffic personnel has to get in position and be there for at least 45 minutes to an hour after the game ends.

The type of parking / traffic management we are talking about here is nothing new - we are just following the example of places that are doing this type of thing successfully (they get more people to games than we do). We have an advantage of much lighter traffic and a better infrastructure with more parking vs. need than any place I have been. We have the disadvantage of no mass transit to speak of

One of the things I like about this plan is the elimination of asphalt. I would hate to see us tear up about 4500 spaces at the Trop and then go build another 3500 spaces to the tune of at least $50 million. Wouldn't it be better to invest money in mass transit than into more parking spaces.

I like the idea of using existing spaces wherever they may be and bringing people in on "shuttles" of some nature. I would think we could use existing parking anywhere on this side of the bridge and maybe set up "high-speed" bus routes to bring people in for a lot less money than building 3500 parking spaces. It would be a better choice environmentally also.

With all this said -- this quote from Chris -- "Polarization kills discourse. Like the AARP says...divided we fail. If we all can't have a real conversation on a topic, and explore it as citizens together, then the politicos and developers basically have free rein, and that, my friend, is simply unacceptable.

Is the best thing anyone has said on any of these blogs.