Financing details on Thursday

The Rays will reveal details of what they call "the preliminary financing plan'' for their proposed waterfront stadium at noon Thursday at Tropicana Field. The sesssion will be open to the public.
St. Petersburg and Pinellas County elected officials are expected to attend and get the details at the same time.
"We are eager to make public our plan to finance the new ballpark and begin the public discourse about it,'' Rays president Matt Silverman said in a statement. "As we have maintained since proposing the new ballpark and redevelopment of Tropicana Field last October, the plan will not require any new taxes. In fact, the plan should create new public funds in excess of those requested for the ballpark - dollars which can be used to help fund city and county services as well as Pinellas schools.''
Entry to the Trop on Thursday will be through Gate 4 on the 16th Street side of the stadium. Gametime that day is 4:20 p.m.
- Marc Topkin

Comments

[Jay]

Nice angle. You're building a whole new multimillion dollar ballpark on public land with public money, which you'll eventually pay back over the course of 20 something years... for the kids?

[get-smart]

Yes they will finance it with securitized bonds (ie re-packaged bad mortgages). That will be their guarantee. In fact, they will get Goldman Sachs to collateralize the bonds (the crooks you can trust).

Gee! What about me, the folks who don't want to destroy the beautiful downtown waterfront and don't want to further enrich these greedy NY Goldman Sachs investment bankers who became wealthy by aiding and abetting the outsourcing of our American jobs to China and now $200/bbl oil. Where is my press conference?

[K]

I like the way they say "no new taxes." That may be true, but TELL THE TRUTH!!! Which city and county programs will have tax $$$ pulled from their budgets to finance this ridiculous proposal???

[get smart you got it!]

Great job Get Smart. You finally, after a week and a half, spelled Goldman Sachs correctly w/ your baseless point that you keep trying to make. I'm proud of you.

[Bobby Fenton]

DESTROY the beautiful downtown waterfront? People do realize ther is already a freaking baseball stadium there, right? Oh, and there's that cooling tower thing too. And don't forget the airport that helps about 5 people a day get their Cessnas in and out of there. You're right, we've got to step in and protect that from this shimmering new jewel.

The jealousy and disdain some people have for anybody who's rich also disgusts me. Get Smart is a big part of the problem because people like him are a monority, yet a VOCAL one.

There are many valid reasons why people are against this proposal and I'm okay with that. But there are too many more like Get Smart who simply like to howl at the rain. Go find a survivalist camp to set up shop at or something.

[JudyToo]

Yes there is a nice human-scale baseball stadium there - about 55' high and not very massive. Perfect for everything from Kids and Cubs to Little Leaguers and everything in between. By the way, it was deserted by the Rays just so they could use the line about the history of baseball on the waterfront.

It is NOT 400'x900'x200' high with a 320' mast/sail affair attached. The Rays (and you) continue to refer to "the baseball stadium that's already on the waterfront."

The proposed stadium doesn't fit the site and dwarfs everything around it. It's actually bigger than the Trop dome. Some people like the design, others think it looks like an alien spaceship. Whatever, it is HUGE.

NO NEW TAXES? C'mon, folks, what do they call the taxes that might be generated by the proposed new development? Old taxes?

Let's cool our jets, develop around the Trop and see how it works out. All of those taxes would go to the city for city services. If it all works out, maybe the Rays can find a site they like, buy it and build themselves a stadium.

I know they want to keep feeding at the public money trough, but enough is enough, ten years is certainly long enough to grow up and be a real corpoation and get off welfare.

It's really hard to believe that some people are still drinking the kool aid - still believing that this is good for us. 100 acres of public land all for the benefit of a baseball team.

$450 Million of public money all for the benefit of a baseball team (at least - it's more like $700-800 Million depending on a lot of eventualities like interest and infrastructure, but no one wants to face the big elephants in the room).

No, there is no money falling out of the sky, it is all taxpayer money being shuffled around under another set of New York shells (in fact, they get new shells almost every day it seems). They are creating another sub-prime mess and hoping we will fall for it. For 30 years. Hi kids, look at what we left for you!

Oh, yeah - that one guy keeps bringing up the airport. At least it's open space. If Baker and Mussett had their way, we would have a huge condo wall like out on the beaches. Let's see, didn't the voters turn that trickery down by something like 75% NO???

Let them give us all the facts, let us vote when we know all the facts and then it will be a done deal, one way or another.

Just don't try to slip it to us before you can answer all the questions - and they haven't answered a single one yet. They just keep saying "we'll take care of that" or "look at these ten year projections the developers made up, aren't they cool?"

News flash: PROJECTIONS do not pay off $300 Million plus interest plus site clean-up plus infrastructure plus demolishing two perfectly good stadiums and hauling themm off to the new Toytown plus insurance plus traffic management plus dump trucks and concrete trucks everywhere for ten years....oh my, I have to go take a nap.

[Bland]

How much of the $300 Million bond issue will be secured by Pinellas County? Half? Will the county participate in the debt service?

If the public referendum fails and the city commission still wants to build a new stadium, where will it be located? Derby Lanes? Old Toy Town Dump?

[Rick K]

{Sigh} Why is it that the naysayers cannot make an argument based on actual facts, or clearly indicate that they are stating opinions. I'll share my opinion, formed after considering some facts, considering what I have observed in other communities, and speculating about the future.

First, I think it would be great if the City had more residents downtown, more places to shop, and more places to hang out. It would be great if we had more diverse retail and an even wider array of the other small businesses that support a vibrant residential community.

While the Trop is an okay venue in my view, I think it is just okay. I think the Rays could have a better venue. And I think the Trop is not a very good concert venue. I cannot really imagine going to the Trop to visit the restaurants and bars there during Non game times.

I HATE the acres and acres of asphalt that surround the stadium. I am not crazy about the ugly sights that dominate the visuals approaching the dome, driving on surface streets to the parking area, and walking thru the parking lots.

I think the Trop is not really like an urban stadium. It's like a suburban stadium built on an island of vacant land in the city.

The urban baseball stadiums in Denver and Boston and Chicago and other cities are far superior to the Trop, not because of the experience inside the ballpark, but because of the experience and environment outside the stadium.

Today, the typical person visiting the Trop travels to the venue by car (from Seminole, Palm Harbor, Bradenton or similar suburb), parks in the giant parking lot and enters the stadium. After the event, they walk to their cars and depart the city. Many times, trips to the Trop are bracketed by trips to restaurants (or bars) outside of the City.

Many people drive home to Seminole and Palm Harbor and stop at a bar or restaurant because they don't see any good options near the Trop. (I am not saying there aren't any)

This reality of a "commuter venue", it seems to me, primarily benefits those who put on the events in the Trop (the Rays organization, concert promoters, or whomever) at the EXPENSE of the surrounding community. In other words, while the benefits of the Trop and the team are many, the current setup has the effect of taking the public investment in the Trop and giving a disproportinate amount of the benefits to those who attend events at the stadium.

I also think it's important to say that having the Rays downtown is good for the city. The Rays could easily build a stadium somewhere else.

The Rays have analyzed their operations and concluded that their organization would be improved by leaving the Trop and moving to a new waterfront ballpark on the site of an existing (smaller, but historic) ballpark. They believe this new location will help them financially and organizationally. They believe that fans and players will find the new venue more likeable than the Trop.

Others may take other views, but in doing so, it seems reasonable to acknowledge that these are views are based on very little. These "the trop is fine" views are not based upon information gathered from surveys about fan satisfaction. They are not based upon interviews with players, umpires, and league officials. It's really just someone saying, "I think the Trop is fine."

Everyone is free to think that. But let's remember that the Rays are in the baseball business. And their business judgement informs them that the new proposal is better than the current arrangement.

I also think the waterfront design is just what the doctor ordered. I think more players and fans will find the new stadium to be "better" than the trop. I also think that the stadium will be an integrated community amenity, instead of the stand alone commuter structure we have now.

I am excited by the restaurants and shops that will be open during non-game hours... the idea of public displays in the area around the stadium that lend cohesion to the area and build excitement for both the city's baseball heritage and the current season is terrific.

I am excited by the creation and improvement of better public spaces on the land and sea around the new stadium, too. The existing ministadium (Al Lang), the land around it, the arts venues nearby, and the water are all underutilized, in my view.

I have been to many other cities where the waterfront is an integral part of the community's life, instead of just something to look at. I think these twin proposals for redevelopment give us plenty of ways to improve the lives of our citizens and attract people to the city.

Essentially, I think these ideas proposed by the Rays are fantastic and full of potential to truly improve our city's center. I have loads of questions, and I am looking forward to learning about the financing plan.

[Native]

Let us Vote, Build the Stadium, I would rather see my tax dollars go to something that I can enjoy then to help bail out some over zealous home owner that is living beyond their means and can no longer afford their mortgage payment.

[Bland]

Rick K,
Well put and good thoughts on how wonderful this new development could be down town.

Here is the concern. While your vision, I do say, is better than the city council of twenty years ago that built the existing stadium with similar visions of what development would occur. And of course developing the old gas works did not pan out. End of story.
The citizens, like me, were taken on a ride by a then arrogant city council. We did not like it then and had no choice. Yes, we hold a large grudge and still remember. We do not want to bite our lower lip and say let’s go with another beautiful vision. Too many of us have been there and done that.
We are tired of the council’s attempts to re-invent our city on the backs of the taxpayers, most of which do not go down town but live in those suburbs.
Here is the challenge for the Rays and the council. In a terrible business environment with decreasing property tax revenues, they will have to get the county commission to back approximately half of the $300 Million in bonds plus related debt service to make this new vision work. I just do not see that happening this time, even if one of those arrogant past city councilmen is now a county commissioner.
I think the vote, no matter how good a job the Rays and Council do and spend to convince the citizens otherwise, will fail for use of the Al Lang property. Again, this will occur not because the vision is bad, but because of the bad history.
Rick all the old people have not died out yet and I am one of them. I have lived her for over fifty years.

[get-smart]

Read the last six paragraphs.

http://www.american.com/archive/2008/april-04-08/a-closer-look-at-stadium-subsidies

[Rick K]

Get-Smart: Thanks for that link. This topic (regional economics) is my first academic love.

There is some very good stuff in that article.

I admit that it is very difficult to correctly measure the impact that any one factor has upon economic growth. Our inability to precisely measure the contribution is not, however, the same as there NOT being a contribution.

(Not that Get-Smart is asserting otherwise)

What I know about the resurgence of downtown St. Pete in the past 15 years convinces me that the presence of the stadium and the professional sports teams that have inhabited it have made significant contributions to the explosion of investment, jobs, and new permanent residents downtown.

I can offer evidence to support my judgement. And professors can argue that my evidence is flawed or inconclusive. This is a limitation of social sciences like economics.

I also commend Bland for his polite and respectful post, and also for his clear explanation of the matters he finds most important on this question.

I think the resurgence of Downtown St. Pete (and to a lesser extent, Downtown Tampa) is a superb example of the very-hard-to-achieve combination of multiple elements leading to the successful creation of a vibrant community of permanent residents, employees, businesses, and visitors.

In my judgement, downtown St. Pete is awesome. 15 years ago, that was not the case, in my view. And it isn't very easy to achieve, either.

For while some cities have gotten better (Columbus, Ohio and San Antonio, Texas come to mind) while incorporating new pro sports venues, many cities have gotten worse.

St. Pete has managed to pull off the very difficult trick of making it all work.

And I think that this recent success, combined with the attractiveness of the "gleaming dream" factor, will carry the day.

I must get back to work though.

[get-smart]

Rick K - I love your spin and I love your measurement of the incalculable. You must be a quantum physicist. Answer me this; when was the last time we had a "Rays Day Parade" to thank the Rays for all they did? Maybe I missed it. Were they in the Festival of States or Santa Parade? Have a nice day.

[JudyToo]

"But let's remember that the Rays are in the baseball business. And their business judgement informs them that the new proposal is better than the current arrangement."

WRONG.

The Rays team plays baseball.

The Rays owners are investors in a commodity - just like an office building or stock or whatever has tangible value that is expected to increase over time. That's what today's sports franchises are all about.

Some people invest in real estate - they find a good deal on a fixer-upper, fix it up and sell it or rent it for a profit. That worked pretty well for a while. Now a lot of those investors are losing their shirts.

Franchise owners do the exact same thing except they have somehow been very successful in sucking public land and money into their account, increasing the value of their team and selling it for a profit.

All kinds of examples all over the country. Try looking up "Field of Schemes." Maybe even read the book. So much of this is going on that someone actually had to write a book about it!
Short version for instant gratification:
http://www.fieldofschemes.com/

This is a divisive force in our community that didn't need to happen. It all started with the secret meetings, keeping it from us until after the council elections. This is a political tar baby because politicians are involved. Politicians think they know what is best for us. They think we should accept things they cook up (like the Trop). That is why franchise owners can con them so easily and get our money into their investment and help them succeed.

Look at what this particular scheme has done to us - the community is divided. Many of us are experiencing hard times - our real estate (homes) are worth less today than a year ago. Foreclosures everywhere. Gas prices going up. Jobs going down. All that stuff is real and it affects everyone to some degree.

The Rays have conned the mayor and the city council into a rush job. Get it done this year (or what?). What is their threat? They'll pick up their balls and leave town? Or maybe it was simple political manipulation:
"Mayor, this will help you be congressman or governor, but you have to do it this year. Next year will be too late because there's a local election and the new mayoral candidates will make you look like a jerk for trying to foist this on the people."

"City council member, you need to go along with the mayor because if you wait until next year, four of you have to campaign for re-election and that won't be easy because a lot of people won't vote for you if you support this scheme."

St. Pete is where it is today because of its inherent natural accommodations for humans - climate, size constrained by water, diverse population. etc. The politicians have been singularly unsuccessful in trying to tweak those advantages with stupid developments like Bay Plaza, Pier Parks I and II, the Suncoast dome, condos on the airport - all with Mr. Mussett's "help."

The waterfront is what brings people here. They stay because they like the weather and the people that live here. How many live here because we have a baseball team? Not very many - all you have to do is look at attendance figures. A/C or outside doesn't really matter - there just ain't enough of 'em within convenient driving distance.

All those other places have lots more people to pull from to get attendance up. They didn't use valuable waterfront land in San Antonio and Columbus. They redeveloped blighted areas in Baltimore and San Francisco. We only have one blighted area in St. Pete - guess where that is? Is that what we want to do to our downtown?

Point is, no one on either side can absolutely PROVE it will or won't work. We live in risky times. $450 Million is a big risk. Why take that leap right now? Give it some time. Let us think about it. Don't argue with your neighbors, be friends. Relax. The Rays aren't going anywhere for a year or two, maybe seven. They need to relax and play ball.

The only ones pushing us are the ones who will make the most money and they live in New York. Somehow we got sucked into this and here we are getting caught up in their urgency. This is Florida. No worries, no rush.
Relax. Time is a healer - we wouldn't be writing all this stuff if we knew we had some time to think about it.

[Rick K]

JudyToo has a very, very different sense of what it means to be rushed than most people I know.

There is nothing rushed about this proposal.

It seems that Judy does not want the proposed redevelopments to happen and she is just using the "we need more time" bit to cover for that.

We have plenty of time. The vote isn't tomorrow.

Let everyone air their concerns. Then we can vote.

This isn't like sending men to the moon, which took nearly a decade to pull off. It's about deciding what we want the City to be.

If you are one who thinks the many, many months we will have to consider this issue is not enough time, then vote "no."

But please stop trying to keep the rest of us who have no problems keeping up from exercising our rights to shape the future of our city.

[get-smart]

JudyToo

The Rays want it on the ballot this year during the presidential election. They figure that there will be more voters to vote "Yes." An off year election will bring out the neighborhood "No" vote only. Why would you get off your couch to vote "Yes?" We already have a stadium!

[Native]

when will you get smart? "The Rays want it on the ballot this year during the presidential election. They figure that there will be more voters to vote Yes."
translation: the Rays want it on the ballot when the majority of voters will turn out, isn't that how a democracy works?
And to answer your question the Rays WERE in the festival of states parade, were you there or was it to hot?

[Paul]

'It's about deciding what we want the City to be.' ... interesting. I don't see anything wrong with our City. I like it. So do alot of people. The downtown waterfront was my first realization of just how beautiful our City is. That was 10 years ago... prior to several of the condo's being built. But we still have access, beauty and human scale to our waterfront. We don't need to 'be' anything. We ARE a beautiful City and I don't think a mega stadium on the waterfront will do any good for the actual citizens. It will only increase the Rays value for their owners. That is what those guys do. They make huge piles of money like we can't even comprehend. This is a financial move on their part. Plain and simple. The Rays owners don't give a flying rat's butt about you, me, or our City. They are money mongers that will do and say whatever they need to, to make yet more money. The waterfront is not for profit. It is for the people of the City. Plain and simple. And thank you Rays for destroying a 90 year tradition of spring training. Way to go. Way to care about St Pete.

[John]

New Baseball Field old Baseball Field. Lets think about the fans and the economy. We have been attending games for yrs. We have seven children 5 boys two girls,all of which played sports. All attended games with us as parents and then with their schools and friends. But now with injuries and retirerment. Being a vet or not its too expensive for alot of us to attend all the games we would like to and show our support for our Rays. We love em. The thing is with all the taxes,insurance and property losses its not affordable for a lot of us. Parking $10 and $5 or better for a soda,never mind if you get hungry. We never miss a game if it is televised. But we will attend to see the Sox get their butts whooped.

[Joel]

I would like to see a comparative study on what the Rays have cost this city by sneaking spring training out the back door under false pretenses for the sole purpose of pre-vacating the land they so desire. It's disingenuous, at best. I'll bet you what we've lost is exponentially more than the Rays have or ever will contribute to our city's coffers. What about the thousands of jobs (small business) and HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars (not to mention free word-of-mouth advertising) the city lost when your beloved Rays stole a 90+ year tradition from our fair city by taking away Spring Training? What about those millions of tourists who's money we depended on to help pay our teachers, police & firemen who now go elsewhere for their spring vacations because they can't come to St. Pete to see their home teams train in that beautiful 100 year old ballpark on the bay any longer? Those snowbirds spent an average of one week on our beaches, patronizing local business daily, spending their money here in St. Pete. Yes, what about that???? How do you compare that with 13,000 people per game driving to the Trop, watching the game and going home? Why are all the mom & pop motels on our beautiful beaches that brought character to our area now giving way to a canyon of high priced condos? If they still had a CLIENT BASE that the Rays STOLE from them, they'd be able to afford the increased taxes & insurance to keep the high rise condos at bay. Are the same 10-20 thousand repeat Rays fans going to spend a week in a local beach motel, eating out every night, shopping, and drinking in our bars? I don't think so.

What about the city just yesterday in this newspaper telling event organizers of some of our most cherished yearly events like Blues Fest, RibFest, Taste of Pinellas, Mainsail Arts Festival, etc that they'll have to cough up more $$ to hold their events or leave town? This is because the city doesn't have the hotel/sales tax revenue it did before the Rays stole Spring Training, to continue to pay for services that support these events. These events that bring real culture, music & art to this city at little or no cost to residents are in jeapordy because why??? Because we've lost our biggest source of income; that being the almighty tourist dollar, which a huge percentage were snowbirds who followed their teams here for Spring Training. They're gone. If you don't beleive me, take a drive out to Mad Beach sometime and ask Rosie from the Bamboo Beer Garden who had to close last year after SIXTY PLUS YEARS IN BUSINESS, because all her regular customers (tourists) stopped coming to this area in large part because we don't have spring training any more.

I'll accept an apology from you supporters, when you can no longer afford to live in this city because it's been turned into Boston Jr. and you can no longer see the beach through the wall of condos. This is your doing by supporting what is happening in this city. It all ties together. Bring back Spring Training and let the Rays move elsewhere. They've done quite enough damage.

[get-smart]

Native - I was at the Festival of States Parade. I didn't see any Rays. Prove it.

As far as the voting thing: That is what the rush is all about.

The fact is, the Rays and Mayor keep it a secret and deprived us of an important issue that needed to be aired for our election of our new city council members. I guess the mayor and friends didn't want to take a chance that any of the city council candidates declare themselves opposed to the stadium and God Forbid win. So much for democracy!

[Local Boy]

As a background, I went to grade school, high school and college in St. Pete. I live in St. Pete, pay taxes in St. Pete, work in downtown and drive by the Trop every day. I have been to baseball games, football games, hockey games, Davis Cup matches, boat shows, folk festivals and other events at the Trop. I remember when there was nothing going on in St. Pete downtown and you wouldn't want to be on the streets at night. I have also worked in downtown Tampa with the high-rise office towers the St. Pete politicians used to envy, yet remember not wanting to work in the evening after the downtown there had emptied out. I am happy to see what St. Pete has become. It has come to life because people actually live in the downtown and there are things to do after work has let out. Baseball is part of that mix. The Trop is comfortable but barely ranks as an “adequate” as a venue. You can vilify the owners all you want but I think it is only reality to believe that they will move at some point in the future, whether to a new local stadium or to another city in another state. What they are offering to put up now as money is less than what it would cost them to buy out their current lease. Any other city who is as interested in having baseball now as St. Pete was years ago could offer a new stadium deal and let the Rays buy themselves out of the current deal. I, personally, like having the Rays and enjoy going to their games. I don’t have a problem with replacing an existing stadium with a new bigger stadium. I also believe that the marine life in the bay would improve since the new stadium would have to control run-off while the existing site does not. I believe the Trop site would be better on the tax rolls redeveloped than as a venue sitting empty for 200+ days a year. I also agree that an urban stadium where people have to walk past restaurants, bars and shops to get to the stadium will have more economic impact than a stadium next to the interstate where people go, park, attend the game, then get back in their cars and on the interstate to leave. That all being said, I still have not made up my mind on the proposed stadium. Frankly, I cannot see how anybody else has either when the details have not been released. I see all the “POWW” signs and the old “nattering nabobs of negativism” is what comes to mind. It seems to have been a knee-jerk “no” without knowing all the facts. The bottom line for me, at least, is the bottom line. Until the financial proposal is finalized, I do not think there are enough facts to make a judgment. Tax money already is being used for the current stadium and will continue to be used for it. If the Rays can come up with a plan that requires no new tax money and are willing to guarantee the financial projections, then they can count me as a “yes” vote. If Thursday’s proposal means additional tax money or is based on “pie-in-the-sky” projections that they are not willing to back financially then I will vote “no.”

[mrclean]

Local Boy when was the Davis Cup played in the Trop?

[Don Mott]

"If Thursday’s proposal means additional tax money or is based on “pie-in-the-sky” projections that they are not willing to back financially then I will vote “no.”
Better read the fine print on that proposal because that is exactly what it will say.

[dave]

I think the Davis Cup was 1990 or 1991.

[dave]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Davis_Cup

Not that Wikipedia should be trusted. For instance, their article on the Trop says "the city spent millions of dollars" in environmental site remediation and links to a Times article discussing the projected and estimated cost, not what was actually paid...

[mrclean]

Thanks I forgot about that. I think I was thinking of the Stanley Cup.

[dave]

Joel, in your missive, you mention that a bar had to close "in large part because we don't have spring training any more." What are you referring to? The Rays played a bunch of games at Al Lang this past March.

BTW, there is an approximate 50 year history of ST at Al Lang, and 90 in the city at large.

[The Unsilent Minority]

no, no, no ... we need to wait on this for at least 15-20 yrs before we, the few loud mouths who are all for the status quo, give you our blessing and allow you an opportunity to speak (since it's probably against what WE want) your mind! We are deathly afraid that you people, who aren't as smart as us, will be swayed by the carpetbaggers who are out to destroy our city and send more jobs to China!!!

John McPhailure
not-so-smart
Judy-Too-Stupid-2-B-Breathing
and the rest of the backward "thinking" minions

[mrclean]

Does re-development of the Trop mean that the south side StPete will be gentrified?

[Jon McPhee]

"Unsilent," who wants to shut who up? Who's afraid of a full public airing of all the ups and downs of this thing? Who's afraid to identify themselves, using anonymity as cover for pitching snotball ad hominem epithets in lieu of reasoned debate? Who's showing the kind of snotty hatred and hypocrisy that they accuse others of? Who's wanting to shut down public debate so they can "have what I want when I want it?" Methinks thoud dost protest too much.

Bumper Sticker:

"Oh heck, let's just kill each other and let our Gods sort it out."

[Rick K]

Jon McPhee....

To answer your direct and important question about who wants to shut who up.....

After reading all the posts in this section of the Times Blog, it is obvious.

Your "side: wants there to be no vote.

They offer many different reasons, but the bottom line is that they do not want the people of St. Pete to vote.

In fact, when I read through the posts by all the various "anti" posters, I am reminded of all the silly "anti" arguments I have studied over the years....

I once lived in a town with a shuttered military base. Government and private developers proposed redeveloping the property and the anti-crowd through everything imaginable at the idea. The voters approved the redevelopment plan and virtually everything the anti's had predicted failed to unfold. Except that, well, the project was a huge success. There were more than a few anti's who feared the success of the project as much as anything else. I can't help but feel the same way in this case.

I once read a terrific book that recounted the history of the development of the Interstate highway system in the U.S. Many of the "anti" crowd offered some of the very same arguments that the anti's continue to offer today. A fair description of their efforts would be that they tried anything and everything to scare, intimidate, and fool people away from supporting the proposed new highways.

Last night, a friend of mine who does not live here and who knows nothing about the issues, accepted my invitation (from her campus office in the midwest, where she is a communications professor) to read these various threads about these twin redevelopment proposals. I doubt anyone would be surprised to hear here assessment. The anti's are throwing everything but the kitchen sink at this proposal. They don't seem to care about facts or honest debate. Instead, they attack any proponent of letting the people decide as being a "paid shill" for the Rays.

In short, the anti's do not want the people to decide. They want to decide for us.

[rayray]

Let Us Vote,,, Build it, build it, Build it!

Go Rays!

[Paul]

Anyone got the list of 100 businesses I should know not to visit in St Pete? Seems this may be a farce, as is most of the pro stadium propaganda. I'm beginning to think there are not 100 businesses supporting the stadium at all. More like a handful. Prove me wrong. I'm kinda smart, and can't find the list on the web.

[Chris Jenkins]

Rick K, you, and your friend, seem to have not done a very good job of analyzing these threads.

1. Ad hominems and pithy attacks are overwhelmingly leveled by people in FAVOR of the new stadium plan, AGAINST those of us who had legitimate and reasoned concerns.

2. The majority of us voicing those concerns use our real names, and have made our valid concerns clearly stated over and over.

3. Anonymous and pseudonymous pro-stadium voices have used endless ad hominem and imposterization to mischaracterize our positions and motivations.

I don't know what blogs you and your friend were reading, and I will have to operate on the assumption of your sincerity, but I invite you to go back through and provide me with links to posts which you think justify your analysis. For purposes of a wager, for every "anti-stadium" post you think fits your profile, I'll provide you FIVE pro-stadium posts which fit my description. Winner buys the first round at Mastry's?

Additionally, anyone who would like to have a public, casual round table discussion on the topic can email me at cjenkins@flmediasolutions.com. I know there have been a few folks who popped around the idea of sitting down over a few beers and talking about these things in person, where we can see we're all just normal folks, and not "pros" or "antis" in real life, just people with concerns.

I don't like the way this deal smells. Although I've spelled out why over and over again, I'll do it again here, since you seem to be a late comer to the conversation.

1. The idea was hidden until after the general election. That was a political move designed to prevent the local political players in the deal from being tossed out over concerns about the deal. That's a bit dirty.

2. One guy says the Trop sucks, the next guy says the Trop is fine. Last year, Rick Baker had a letter published in the times describing how awesome the Trop is, called it one of the best venues in the country, and made a clear and impassioned statement that there was at least another good 10-20 years over service left in it before we would need to address venue concerns. That's not just anybody, and not just a "Trop's Fine!". It went point by point about how the Trop is not just fine, but Great! If you and your friend had read through these blogs, you would have already come across that. As I said, I invite you to go back through and spend a little more time.

3. The cost projections are all completely pie in the sky, because the data is simply not available to determine what those costs will be. No environmental impact study has been done by the appropriate agencies. Preliminary studies suggest there will be a need for environmental mitigation, which can be notoriously expensive. No one has addressed concerns that there are potentially more hazardous materials that will need to be removed from the Trop site for redevelopment to occur. The cost of that has not been factored in. Who is being knee jerk here when it comes to questioning what the cost will really be? CONA nailed it on the head in their positional statement on why they recommended against the new deal. I urge you to read it.

4. Come downtown on the next big function there...4th of July should do quite nicely. Find a parking spot close to the water in the early evening, and hang out til about 9 or so to watch the fireworks, and then take the short walk to your car, followed by the smooth ride out of the area. Meet me on July 5th, and we can laugh about the phrases "parking spot close", "short walk", and "smooth ride". As someone who's on the water every year for the fireworks, I can tell you now, we know the drill. Show up many hours early, and you might get parking within a few blocks. Otherwise, park at the Globe, and just plan to walk the mile and a half to get there. Then, sit for 45 minutes in the locked up downtown traffic waiting to get out. Anyone who tries to deny this can add their name to the list of people willing to join me for July 4th, and we can all put our money where our mouths are.

There you go, Rick. No name calling, no pie in the sky, nothing but facts and opinions, clearly stated. I don't mind the issue going to a vote, either, although you will most definitely find a red sign in my yard. All I want is what any municipal and county citizen should want...clear, contractually bound guarantees of protection, a slow down on the blowing of smoke our rears (i.e. projections about "additional tax revenues" based on formulas that proved wildly over optimistic the first time around, you know, when they built the Trop?), and some accountability by local politicians and business owners for the portions of MY tax dollars they are putting at risk in this venture.

If THAT request sounds inflammatory, knee jerk, reactionary, and two dimensional to you, then I'll be doubting your sincerity, and succumbing to the desire to fulfill your characterization earlier by mentally relegating you to paid Ray's shill. Hopefully, it won't come to that... ;)

[get-smart]

Mr . Jenkins you are the Super Blogger .. The Bloggers Blogger. You are very logical and to the point. You lay out the argument item for item. You must realize and I know you do, that the pro stadium blogger is a paid shill. They will not respond to you in any coherent way.

It is the owners of the Rays that are driving this nightmare. They are un-American, treasonous cretins. Just Google "goldman sachs treason." The whole point of a Waterfront Stadium is pure GREED and EGO. They are pumping up the value to dump it and then brag to their cohorts how smart they are. That is it! Nothing more! The owners don't care about our country or St. Pete. They are cut from the same cloth as the criminal ex-governor of New York. Go Rays!

[Don Mott]

Well said Chris, There are many financial questions that, as of yet have not been addressed. Hopefully they will be addressed tomorrow. The costs of relocating Bayshore into the Bay to my knowledge have not been mentioned and probably can't be. There have been no environmental or construction bids processed. Will this be the cities responsibility? It certainly isn't included in the $450 million. Then there's that pesky little deed restriction issue that the Rays conveniently said could be worked around. At what cost? There's the issue of the proposed office/parking garage at the Mahaffey which the city has recommended against. Once again the Rays say no problem we'll just move it. At what cost and who will pay for the additional property? There is that little issue of "no new taxes", yet they want to use taxes from the redevelopment of the Trop site. Are those not new taxes? By the way the money they are counting on is estimated by the developers who have secured no tenants. That is pie in the sky! Who makes up for the losses if those projected revenues are not met? I could go on but I think that will suffice for now. Any comment or spin to add Rick K?

[Don Mott]

By the way Rick K as Chris mentioned a lot of us use our real names. Care to tell us what your real name is?