Mark the date: Official campaign begins May 5

Some noteworthy changes at the Rays' web site, www.majorleaguedowntown.com, over the weekend. First, they've added a widget that will e-mail Mayor Rick Baker and the entire St. Petersburg City Council for you. And they've also got yard signs in white and blue that read "Let's build the ballpark."

If you want a sign, you can get one by calling 727-342-5777.

If you want a St. Pete Preserve Our Wallets and Waterfront sign (the anti-stadium group), you can get one by calling 727-522-0189 or 727-374-7883.

UPDATE: Fans for Waterfront Stadium just told Ballpark Frankness that it, too, will have signs starting tomorrow. Their signs will be blue with contrasting white letters that say "Let Us Vote!" If people want a Fans For Waterfront Stadium sign, they can call 727-475-0287.

Nothing says civic participation like a yard sign!

Comments

[get-smart]

I am not a paid blogger but I play one on the internet :) ha ha My name is Mike & I am 8 & 1/2 old. I like baseball. I like the the Yankees & the Rays. GO RAYS!!!! but I don't live in Florida but I've been their 2 times. I live in new York with my mother & fater & my 2 sisters & dog names Boo. My Uncle Mikey loves the Rays. I am named from my Uncle Mikey. He said they are going to make a new stadium where you live so you can have fun seeing the Rays to. I am happy that you like the Rays to. GO RAYS !!! HAHA!!! I think you my Uncle Mikey stays in Florida with you. He saids it is hot but he stays in side to be cool. He said some people call him a carpet. He said the Florida people are more ons & other names I can not spell. Some words I am not allowed to say. He said he can cramp in down your mouth. I like the beach & I like Florida. GO GO RAYS!!! By By!!!
Mike PS I like the spell check & the little red lines. I am a good speller!!! PSS My big sister helped me with the first part on top PSSs GO RAYS!!! haha!!!:)

[Bob]

POWW must be doing something right since the Rays basically just copied (bit) what they've been doing on their website for months now.

[Bister]

Good point Bob. POWW invented the concept of direct emails from websites and yard signs. You all should have trademarked the concept 'cause it looks lie it is catching on. I saw a Yard Sale sign in someone's yard yesterday and immediately thought 'they took that idea from POWW!' Looks like you and the other POWW folks have found something else to complain about....

[Bister]

Good point Bob. POWW invented the concept of direct emails from websites and yard signs. You all should have trademarked the concept 'cause it looks lie it is catching on. I saw a Yard Sale sign in someone's yard yesterday and immediately thought 'they took that idea from POWW!' Looks like you and the other POWW folks have found something else to complain about....

[Bob]

First of all, I aint even in POW.

Second, I'm talking about the form and the yardsign image on the right side of the page.

Oh wait, the Rays flip flopped them. Nevermind, you're right.

Not.

[Bister]

AAggghh! you got me Bob. I was like 'man this guy agrees with what I wrote - he sees the errors of his ways’ and then bam! Out of no where - he says 'NOT' (in all caps no less!). What a yarn! You got me. What a goof I am. You really should trademark that wry humor and linguistic turn – I’ve never seen anything of the sort. Unique stuff. just like yardsigns and direct email links.....

[Dr_Dug]

You need a sense of humor when talking about a waterfront stadium...NO WATERFRONT BASEBALL STADIUM

[Bob]

Bister, go ahead and attack me. I eat that shite up. Love it. Means you have no real argument.

[Stevo]

Where do i get a Sign Opposing the Waterfront Stadium??? This article wants to exhibit how everyone supports a new stadium. UnBiased? Not!!! 90% of community associations have already shot it down, but they're ignoring it like it doesn't matter or never happened...

[Bob]

Steve, in their defense (can't believe I'm saying that) they said:

"If you want a POWW sign (from POWW, not the Rays), you can get one by calling 727-522-0189 or 727-374-7883."

You can also go to http://www.stpetepoww.com and order one through the site I think.

[Stevo]

Bob, thanks for the info. They didn't define POWW and what it means in the article.

[Bob]

Ah, good point. Didn't notice that.

[Brad]

St. Pete should have built a baseball stadium on the waterfront to begin with. Let's make it happen now!

[Bob!]

There already is one, Brad! Let's keep that one and build the sailboat somewhere else!

Goooo Team!

Yeah!

Woo hoo!

[Pete]

I love baseball and I love the comfort of the Trop. It is air-conditioned and I don't have to worry about sunstroke, rainstorms, or lightning.

Why build another stadium? Give me a good reason why the Rays should not stay in the Trop.

[Bob]

The Rays should not stay in the Trop because it is not as profitable in the long run for the current owners to do so.

Is that a good reason?

[Chuck]

Lots of fresh opinions in here.

NOT! (thanks for the gag Bob)

Seriously, we should probably discuss something that was mentioned earlier in the postings, something that concerns me to the core. Apparently, Bob has been eating a substance he referred to as "shite". I can only assume he means feces. While some of you are just fine having a "shite eater" speaking for you in a public forum, I find it to be quite inappropriate.

[Ron]

Bob,

That is an excellent reason. It is an excellent reason for the current owners to pay for their own stadium!!!

I would probably vote for allowing the change to the waterfront for a stadium if they would build it with 100% of their own money.

[mm]

Dear St Pete,

Please reject the stadium. We know someone who builds world-class stadiums where championships are won.

Love,
Tampa/Hillsborough

[Kim]

Please remember that aside from the money they are talking about filling in 40 feet of Tampa Bay (this shocked me when I read it) AND taking up all the parking in downtown any day there is a game. Good luck if you like eating, shopping or living down there.

[Richard]

The plan is to take a bunch of dirt (Tropicanna field) that currently generates zero dollars in property taxes, develop it into something taxable, and then have those taxes subsidize the construction of the new stadium.

Cost to me - $0

Now - that's assuming the city is smart enough to take no responsibility for anything environmentally suspect found under the aforementioned dirt, and the "financing plan" occurs as described by the Rays.

Two gigunda big ifs.

So I'll wait and see what happens. IF they do what they say they're going to do, they way they say they're going to do it - they have my support. However, if they want the city on the hook for any part of this deal - well then I'm calling POWW and getting my free sign.

[hmmm]

Dear Tampa/Hillsborough

No problem on the rejection. Didn't really want it in the first place. When can you pick them up? We can always meet you at the Gandy if it's more convenient. Anything we can do to help a neighbor.

Yours truly,
St. Petersburg

[Jeff]

It's not just direct cost to the taxpayer...it's the environment they want to disturb, the parking they certainly DO NOT have and the addition of another cheesy eyesore like "The Pier".

[Paul]

haha! you'd have to be a fool to put one of those 'support the stadium' signs in your yard. You want your neighbors knowing you have no respect for the waterfront or our City finances? Go right ahead please, put one in your yard, it will just make it easier to know who the idiots are. My gut feeling is you will see very very few of them. No new stadium, anywhere. They bought the Rays, now play in the Trop. You knew full well what you were buying.

Now lets move on to saving Tierra Verde from our corporate predator Mayor and the Semblers. Just how much are we going to have to fight this crummy local govt to keep this area nice?

[Not Bob]

I think Bob just comes on here and replies to himself.

Let me get this straight "Bob".
You oppose the new stadium.
Correct?

[Not Not Bob]

No, I love it! I just don't want it on the waterfront or in any way to be funded with tax money or the sale of public land. But I think the design looks kickass.

[Harold]

I have a great idea. Let the Rays pay their own mortgage. Isn't that what responsible adults do to support themselves, families, and their own comunities?

[Sue]

The second I read this notice I called POWW to offer our home as a regular distribution point for additional signs in our neighborhood. The dozen or so signs we had a few weeks back were snapped up in days by people of all ages. There are so many smart people out there who see through the Rays B.S.

[Steven]

Why does the Times not have a picture of the POWW website on the homepage? Kind of fishy that they talk about the "Sign Wars" but only show one side of the battle.

Fair and balanced?

[Paul]

Sign wars?! The only signs I see are red opposition signs. Its kind of like the USA vs. France. Its not a war. There are no pro-stadium signs. Zero. Zippo. Nada. I'd say wait until there are a few, before penning an article called 'sign wars', but there won't be any. Well there may be one, and that will be a complete give away to our self referencing mythical hairy palmed blogger.

[Journalism at its finest]

Yeah, it becomes "Sign Wars" and a headline story ONLY after the Rays update their website. The Times could use a pair of knee pads, I'd say.

[Native]

obviously from reading the comments very few of you have really taken the time to research the issue. Try educating yourselves on the issue so you will not embarass yourself when you try to speak about it. Put it on the November ballot and let the city vote. Build the stadium.

[gary grooms]

Hi Jeff,

There have been two professional parking studies done that both determined there was enough parking. I realize that doesn't prove it - but the IRL race certainly does.

On race day we had a crowd more than double what a baseball sellout would bring. There was a race track on the city streets impacting traffic flow and consuming a little parking. Yet there were thousands of available spaces between 2nd Ave North and 2nd Ave. South.

Here is the rough math. About 4,000 cars parked at the Trop on race day and took shuttles to the track. If the Trop is redeveloped there would only be about 2,000 spaces available there for baseball parking. So, to handle the race (not a baseball game at less than half the spectators) we need to find a place for those 2,000 cars. Just between the new Bayfront Medical Center parking garage (that was closed on race day) and a handful of other lots we quickly find another 3,000 spaces.

I could go into more detail - but first I want someone to explain how we easily handled race day - but we couldn't handle a baseball game?

[mrclean]

Gary - That's funny that you should bring up parking. The weekend of April 26th we had the ST. ANTHONY'S TRIATHLON downtown. It brought over 35,000 spectators each day. All the parking spaces were used. Local Business SHUT THEIR DOORS BECAUSE THERE WERE NO CUSTOMERS. IT WAS ABSOLUTE GRIDLOCK. As proof go to the city video archive for May 1st. You will see Councilwoman Curran chew out the city manager. The Trop and all available spaces were used The city was at an absolute overflow. So get some clippers and groom your ears. But I realize you are on the payroll.

May shops had to close there door due to the lack of

[Paul]

Speaking of the Triathlon we just had, what an incredible event celebrating its 25th year in St Pete. Talk about history and success and a true piece of St Pete sports history. If you don't do tri's, you unlikely realize the standing our City has in this global sport.

The Rays parking report claims 'no overflow' with this specific event because it occurs early Sunday morning. I'll point out that this is quite wrong. This event starts on Friday... has several thousand people from over 50 countries in attendance. This event has a Saturday component on a race for kids... events downtown all day Saturday, and the the actual race is Sunday morning with a post race event wrapping up mid-afternoon.

So there's your 'no impact' rebuttal to that one specific event and the real deal on what the Rays parking study overlooked. I live here, I know about parking.

Should we take this event by event, weekend by weekend? Could be interesting... however that's a moot point when considering larger issues.

My beef with this is we have the 2020 vision plan... and it clearly does not include MLB on the waterfront. Why was all that involvement from US the citizens of ST PETE done, if it was just to be ignored by our elected, representative govt officials? Can we get a refund for our efforts?

If we have 1/2 billion to throw around, then by all means, give US a tax refund. The Fed is sending out checks, why not St Pete? Consider it a true local stimulus package. Help US out dammit, not some millionaire baseball owners.

[Don Mott]

Hi Gary, it will be nice to debate with you again. BTW, I don't care to meet you to view Al Lang. No offense but I've been there and know what is there. My first question would be how do you know there absolutely would be 2,000 spaces available at the redeveloped Trop site? Secondly how do you know the BMC parking garage would be open to baseball fans? And offhand you mention a "handful of sites". Care to mention where they might be and if there are agreements to secure them? The city reports have expressed great reservations about the parking and the supposed parking professionals projections have been discounted. There are, as far as I know no agreements with private property owners for off site parking. Can you elaborate on your predictions?

[Susan]

Just out of curiousity, how many here actually live downtown? My apartment building offers only on-street parking, so I've paid the city for that privilege for 3 years now. It didn't take me long to learn that for big events such as Gran Prix race weekend and St. Anthony's, it's best to keep my car parked for the duration of the event.

And lately, for Rays games, should I forget to keep my car parked that day, there won't be spots available within my zone (1B) until long after the game has let out. Damn inconvenient now...but just imagine what it will be like without those thousands of parking spots available at the Trop...!!

[Jon McPhee]

The cool thing about experts, like "parking experts" and such, is that anybody can buy one at the intellectual Kmart, in any flavor or color you want. Expert opinions purchased by interested parties in any controversy or judicial trial are just so much window dressing and moonshine.

One possible exception can be "special masters" and court-selected experts, who report to the trier of fact, or at least the nominally unbiased gatekeeper and referee, the judge. Even they often have trouble with "just the facts, ma'am." The closest thing we might have in this public debate over the fiscal future might be the City and County staffs, who are nontheless at the bottom of the chain of command. Seems to me that the trier of fact here is all the citizens of Pinellas and St. Pete, and that the mayor and the other parties are about as "interested" and biased as you can get.

One alternate approach might be what federal law requires in half-a-billion-dollar Superfund responses: the guys proposing the deal, private parties and government, pony up a "technical assistance grant" that gives the affected public the funds to fund its own watchdog expert. The people who push these deals really hate such green-eyeshade oversight, but it often produces a better and more easily swallowed result.

[Kyle]

I see a stadium design that faces the same direction as Lang does now. The Stadium moves back toward central. The stadium is built up like Disney World is. The Bay doesn't have to be filled in. The sponsorship of the stadium is secured before voting is done. Those funds go into construction of the stadium and not someone's pocket. I'm no scholar and don't pretend to be one. I like the Trop. The Rays are going to have to convince me that this is the right thing to do financially before I vote yes.

[mrclean]

What would be the liability if some drunken Rays Fan ran over and killed someone in a wheel chair in the BMC garage?

[get-smart]

Jon - To everyone concerned; the city politicians and the Rays' owners are just interested in pumping up the value of the Rays and selling the team off. In a couple of years all the city politicians and Rays owners will be gone. You must realize(sit on a tack and wake-up) that the owners come from Goldman Sachs. They know how to pump and dump. Our national economic woes are a direct result of their past endeavor! They can care less about the country and even less about us. Google "goldman sachs treason" Read and learn!

[Thor]

Hey get Smart, Thor wonders about you, are you as goofy as the real Maxwell smart, it looks like it. Once again, you anti stadium people are changing your story. Thor thinks you are from an alternate reality. In your world the Rays bought a team for $70 million, poured $30 million into the trop and will then pay $150 million for the new ball park and suddenly become rich. Thor likes your kind of math. Hey Thor bought a nice car, wnat to buy it for $10,000 more than Thor paid for it, silly little get smart. Thor advises get smart to simply get on your talking shoe, and call Puff Daddy Hal and ask him for new instructions. Hey Kathy, stomping again, Hi Justin, how's it going, silly litle man, just how thick are those glasses Justin? They are clouding your judgement young one. Thor finds your arugument cute and very silly. So Get smart, Thor thinks you should get off your Tandy Computer and call Puff Daddy Hal. Thor has spoken, Thor is wise, Thor is brave, Thor has cute little toes.

[gary grooms]

Hi Don,

You can pretend to be objective and rational but hiding behind your screen name and not being willing to meet in person says otherwise. You can also say you know what is there at Al Lang- but why did I have to tell you about seawalls, breakwaters and how much of our waterfront is already fill?

You continue to demand proof at level that just doesn’t exist - but don’t hold yourself to the same standard of proof. As to there being 2,000 spaces at the Trop if it was redeveloped - that is what is in the RFP’s - maybe you’re right and there won’t be 2,000 spaces - maybe there will be 4,000 -- prove me wrong.

As to the BMC parking garage being open - again no level of proof that meets your standards exist here or any where else for that matter - but you could look at page 71 of RK&Ks report.

There are many sites in the 2nd to 2nd corridor that are potentially available. Are agreements in place? - of course not. No one has ever entered into agreements four years in advance of the possible need. Please produce the proof of signed agreements in Baltimore or Denver or San Diego or anywhere that predate the opening of the stadium by four years.

Previously, you have discounted everything the City has said about most anything. So, now that they have expressed a “concern” over parking you think they are more competent than RK&K who has proven themselves repeatedly. Please provide the proof of the parking disasters in the Cities that RK&K did previous work in. Make sure this proof meets your own unattainable standards.

Here is how the agreements work - let’s say I own an office building somewhere on 1st Ave. and that it has 150 spaces. Most all my tenants are gone before 6:00pm. I enter into a contract with a professional parking company like Lanier or Central to have them manage my lot after say 5:30 pm. The parking company insures that my tenants have a predetermined number of spaces available even after hours - we will say 50 spaces. The remaining 100 spaces are “rented” at $5 - $10 $15 or $20 depending on location.
This lot is already “approved” to be a parking lot and the parking company probably has better insurance than the lot owner. My job as the owner of this lot will be to cash the check I get from the parking company. Once in a blue moon a private lot says no to this type of arrangement. The percentages are very small. The fact that it is worked out this way all over the country I’m sure isn’t proof to you - but it would be to any rational person. Again, provide proof that meets your standards of places where there are thousands of available spaces within a mile of a ballpark that a significant percentage of lot owners barricaded their lots and prevented any game day cars from parking -- good luck with this one.

I’m still waiting for the “proof” that even though we easily handled an event twice the size of a baseball sellout, we won’t have enough parking for half that number of people.

BTW - I live downtown - at McNulty Lofts. To get to my space on Level 6 I have to drive though 5 levels of public parking. Never had a parking problem - any day for any event. Now if I think the City "owes" me a space on the street at my front door - then I have a parking problem. Even if I refused to park in my space and insisted on parking on the street I have never seen a day that I would have had to park more than a block and a half away. If you want a space just sitting there waiting for you all the time - go buy one like everyone else has to.

[gary grooms]

Hi mrclean,

I live at 2nd and 2nd - missed the gridlock entirely. Please name the businesses along Central for instance that were closed. I know a lot of the restaurant operators in town and they had a good weekend.

I live on top of a 7 level parking structure and we didn't get close to full. I can look out my balcony at the Northern Trust lot and they also had few cars. Southcore wasn't full and the Lanier lot at 5th and 1st Ave South as well as Bayfront didn't even bother to open. I just named off probably 2,000 spaces are sure we were full?

[Mandy]

Hey Thor, just so you know, Justin created those red POWW signs. I want you to think about that every time you see one of them. See a red sign, think Justin.

And he'll think about you when...

Oh wait, he won't. So yes, go paint your fat little toes or whatever it is you do in your insignificant, anonymous little life.

[mrclean]

Gary ,So what are you saying , you live in Williams Park and when you are flat on your back you can see the Progress Building 7 story parking garage. And you use the computers at the Scientology Center. And Kalt meets with you at W. park and feeds you cold chicken sandwiches as payment for being a supporter. And you see nothing and hear nothing. Way to go dude.

[Don in St. Pete]

Gary, I would say from your post's that your bought and paid for with good old blue and white Rays Dollars. You ask for proof but offer none of your own. I think our city staff has a little better handle on the parking situation downtown that some consultant who's paid to paint the rosiest picture possible and has no obligation to provide the truth. Pull your head out of your nether regions and find a new argument, this one doesn't cut it. AL Lang should be bulldozed and converted to Parkland! POWER to THE PEOPLE!

[Don Mott]

Wow Gary, did I touch a nerve there? Just because I don't agree to meet you I am not rational or objective? That's pretty judgmental don't you think? Screen name? Sorry buddy that is my real name. The proof I have asked for is to verify the numbers you are spouting, no more no less. If there is no proof then the numbers are useless and should not be spit out. I am not spouting numbers because I have no proof. All I asked for is for you to verify what you are telling us and obviously you can't do that so you start ranting on me. Typical!

[Don Mott]

By the way I didn't need some one who's only lived here, what three years, to tell me about seawalls and fill. I've lived here 54 years and I do know a little about that. That was not what I previously questioned you about. So if you want to be respected and listened to don't try to spin things to suit your purpose. It really is much easier to just be honest.

[Don Mott]

Gary, do you know who Ozzie Smith is? Do you recognize the name Bob Gibson? I watched them play at Al Lang. Long before you came here and maybe even before you were born. Don't rag on me because you are called out and can't produce.

[gary grooms]

mrclean - very constructive and well reasoned response.

[gary grooms]

Hi Don,

I point out that you are not being rational because you continue to demand proof of a future event. My request is you show us how that's done at the standards you request.

Here is your exact quote "I misinterpreted your comment on the harbor being man made and assumed you meant the bay, my bad. I will admit I am ignorant of any breakwaters and of the harbor at Demens Landing being man made. I will research that" -- are sure you already knew everything?

Still no one has offered up any reasoning - or any "proof" that the parking would be an issue. I have said it before - Explain why we handled the race with twice the crowd and then there might be reason for a debate on parking and traffic.

[gary grooms]

Don in St Pete,

My proof on the parking - is the race weekend.

Your comments about the consultants shows you don't have a clue what consultants do. If the City was better equipped to do the studies they wouldn't have needed a consulting firm. While it isn't unheard of for consultants to doctor their reports to make a client happy - it isn't how it is supposed to work. Do you have any proof that RK&K has every "rolled over" for a client? Do you have any evidence showing that the parking studies they did in other Cities regarding new stadiums were wrong?

[gary grooms]

Don

Yes I know who Ozzie Smith and Bob Gibson are. I've only seen one MLB game from beginning to end in my life - it was the Yankees at Cleveland in 1967 or 68. I'm surprised you haven't Googled me by now. I think the first three hits on Google are actually me. I'm not the one about the miniature schnauzer.

Not sure what you mean by "called out and can't produce" - I'm still waiting for you to show us how it's done. Then I'll do your job and ignore or discount anything that doesn't support my position.

[Richard]

Funny thing - My neighbors and I had a little picnic in Northeast park the same day as the triathalon. Some found easy on street parking (at least where the Old NE residents didn't block off their streets. Heaven forbid someone parked a Honda in front of their mansion) while others pulled right into the lot north of the tennis courts at 12 ave. The officer moved the cones and let us drive right across the road and into the lot.

Easy parking - no problems.

[sick of POWW lies]

Let me tell you about an incident that just occurred in Old Northeast. A "Lets build the ballpark" sign was stolen last night. Today, my neighbor was home and caught a middle age woman taking his other pro-stadium sign. When he ran out to confront her she threw the sign down and ran. A police officer just happened to be driving by and he stopped the woman. The woman was very shaken and refused to give her name. She apologized profusely and said she was a Stetson law professor and please accept her apology. Let me tell you, if it was my property, I would not have accepted her apology, I would have pressed charges. Grow up people. POWW and it's gang of bullies have zero respect for the process, our right to vote, property rights or right to have a differing opinion.

[Chris Jenkins]

Wow, Sick of POWW lies, that story sounds very Truthy! I believe it. I saw the same thing, after forwarding my email from Bill Gates to ten of my best friends! I hope the crazy law professor doesn't show up here before my check from Microsoft arrives!

Hey, speaking of which, there are like a half dozen Nigerians who need help getting MILLIONS out of the country, and they pay hefty commissions for the assistance! It won't take too many of THOSE deals to finance a new stadium....just put your name, date of birth, mother's maiden name, social security number and bank routing and account numbers right here in these comments, and let's build this thing!

[Don Mott]

As the pros continue to decimate their credibility I can only laugh at the outlandish and ridiculous attempts to smear those who are opposed. Rather than present valid numbers and answers to questions they throw insults, innuendo and false promises. What a fine group! Here's a hint y'all, the way to receive proper recognition and understanding is not accomplished by slinging mud.

[Don Mott]

Gary, I will no longer attempt to counter your many spins. It takes up too much of my time, but I do have one question. Why would I Google you? I don't Google myself so why would I be interested in someone who is insignificant to me? You're so vain you probably think this song is about you. Don't you?

[sick of lies about POWW]

Um...was that woman in POWW? So far as I know no Stetson Law professors are.

And I had my POWW sign stolen a week ago during the night. Whom should I blame for that? You?

I agree, everyone should have a right to free speech. And everyone should also refrain from accusations not based in fact.

But maybe this vandalism you speak of explains why there are a sea of red signs everywhere and hardly any pro-stadium signs. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[sick of POWW Lies]

truth hurts. you know who you are.

[sick of lies about POWW]

look around you at all the red signs all over town, thousands of them everywhere you look. that's all the truth you need. hurt much?

but yeah, your story about some alleged sign theft in which the cops let the thief just waltz away totally levels the playing field. riiiight.

[Thor we are waiting]

Thor, I am waiting for your nightly 10:20 post...Where are you Thor???

[Matthew Lawson]

In full-page newspaper ads in 1990, Cleveland's Central Market Gateway Project promised that a new sports complex would generate "$15 million a year for schools for our children." Instead, the Cleveland Teachers Union has calculated, tax breaks given to the project have drained $3.5 million a year from the Cleveland school system, which is now in receivership.

Do we want this to happen to us? Of course the Rays' financial plan will promise similar things. These are men who made their millions off other peoples' money. Well most of us don't want them to make more off of us. Don't you think it is incredible that they have the gall to suggest rebuilding on the Trop site and then request that most of the money generated from that go towards building them a stadium so they can make more money?

This town has a fading infrastructure, fireman without contracts, libraries with shortened hours, over crowded classrooms. If tax dollars are to be generated they need to be spent on much needed services for the people - not for the pocketbooks of wealthy New Yorkers.

[gary grooms]

Don,

Does this mean you won't be providing any proof to support your position. Now, there's a shocker.

[Mel]

um..I've seen one "build the waterfront" sign so far and that was waaaaaay out in Shore Acres. If I lived out in Shore Acres I might be for it too because it would barely affect me, but unfortunately I live downtown where I will be directly affected if this deal goes through. I am not for it due to many reasons, one is because I remember what was promised when they constructed Tropicana Field and NONE of those promises came true. If you take a drive into that district which is now called the Grand Central district, you can witness this for yourself and now that the debt isn't even paid on that land that they stripped bare back in the late 80's, early 90's, they want to just callously abandon it and move down to the waterfront and desecrate downtown. That wasn't even 20 years ago! I read the figures, the Rays are only planning on fronting 150 of the 450 million dollars to build this new stadium, who's paying the other 350 million?

Besides, I looked at the new design of the proposed new stadium - that sail thing is absolutely, unequivocally hideous looking. It's going to be almost as tall as the Progress Energy building! That design doesn't belong downtown.

Does anyone out there realize, seriously, how HOT it gets in July down here? And not just hot but many times, even in the evenings the humidity level is in the 60+% range. that means, that after you find your parking space about 5 or 6 blocks away and walk to the stadium in 90 degree, 65% humidity weather, you will not be treated to the relief of an a.c.'d stadium. Instead you will bake in the sun and the humidity for another hour (if it's an evening game). Your draws will be sopping wet, your hair will be greasy and wet and worst of all, the person next to you will be in the same condition. You better hope that they wear a damn strong deodorant! I can almost guarantee that people who visit from out of state (which alot of them do to see the Yankees) and go to a game during the summer will not come back if they have to sit out in heat like this.

It's just an all around bad idea. There's nothing wrong with Tropicana Field. Why can't they just make some improvements to that? Can't it be revamped for alot less money? These are viable oiptions..How come they aren't being explored?

I'm 100% against this and I know eveyone in my neighborhood is too. There are RED SIGNS EVERYWHERE!

Everyone who is opposed to this should be at the city council meeting on May 22nd in room 100 at City Hall. I think the meeting starts at 6:00, but please confirm that time by going to the POWW (stpetepoww.com) website and clicking on the top where it says "important dates." If you sign in early enough I believe they are letting residents speak.

[parking, we don't need no stinking parking!]

gary, the grand prix happened mostly over the weekend and most people stayed well away from downtown so parking was not an issue, you are exactly right!

if we could run every game just like the grand prix, closing lots of streets, having games primarily on Saturday and Sunday and expecting most locals to stay away from downtown then problem solved!

[Mel]

oh yea, I also noticed that there is NOTHING written about what's going to happen to Demen's Landing (which, btw, is a historic landmark) if they fill in that part of the bay? I guess that Demen's would just be another casualty of this new stadium as well, huh?

[Mel]

....um-kay! I'll agree to stay inside just so you all can have your baseball game! oh! and while your at it, why don't you just hand out red scarlett letters for us "locals" to wear on our lapels too so that everyone will know who we are if we dare to come out into the light of day during one of your baseball games. Your idea stinks, Mr. Parking.

[parking, we don't need no stinking parking, deux!]

Yikes, just one problem. To maximize fan comfort (laugh) the Rays say most games will be played at night. Given most games last a little under three hours (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2003-03-05-faster-games_x.htm) I would assume they would start at 7pm and end at 10pm (correct me if you think I’m wrong).

So lets think about that. If, as we are led to believe, games will be good for downtown because they will be bringing a huge influx of people, most people would need to get downtown by say, 5:30 pm in order to do all the shopping, dining, museum going, etc that they supposedly will do. Only problem is that 5-6:30 pm is when most people already downtown are trying to get out of work, back to their cars, and back home.

That sounds like fun!

Okay, so maybe they will start games later, say 8pm. Let’s bump the time back to 6:30 pm when most fans will need to arrive to also be customers at our local businesses and still get to the game before the opening pitch. Now you’ve just screwed all the people who might want to come downtown but not go to the game. Oops.

But lets be real. Most people like to drink beer and eat hot dogs while they watch the game. Their not coming to go to Push Lounge or the Craftsman Gallery, they want the baseball experience. Period.

They will show up downtown probably about 30-45 minutes before the first pitch and go directly to the game. Since it’s a night game, when they get out most businesses will already be closed and/or they will generally be tired and ready to head home (especially for games during the week).

So it sounds more like traffic and parking will suck and most businesses will see no real benefit. But then again most studies say just the opposite. Oh wait, no...they actually don’t.

[Sabine]

Dumb me... I was curious and I followed Gary's egomaniacal suggestion and Googled him. Impressive. 7 of the top 10... my favorite is #3, "YouTube - Gary Grooms My Little Man."

[Chuck]

You do realize that stadium supporters are a bunch of crank activists - therefore...no signs.

I never really tuned into this Albert Whitted debate...Who do I have to talk to about getting that useless airport torn down?

[Sabine]

Mel... good thoughts, but may be understated. The new stadium is 200' high (20 stories) at the solid canopy end, and 325' (32 stories) when the roof is out.... take a look at the drawing at stpetepoww.com, under "It's Too Darn Big." It's almost as tall as the B of A tower. Also, the humidity in the Summer is closer to 100% than 65%. Finally, residents can, and should, speak on 5/22. Sign up, starting around 3:30, to speak early, but you can sign up and state your preferences anytime during the meeting, which starts at 6:00.

[gary grooms]

Hi "parking, we don't need no stinking parking! "

So you translate 75,000 to 100,000 people coming into town to watch the race as: "people stayed well away from downtown so parking was not an issue," This also must explain why most downtown restaurants had way above average sales that weekend.

[gary grooms]

Mel,

There is a good reason you "noticed that there is NOTHING written about what's going to happen to Demen's Landing" - because nothing is being done to Demen's Landing.

So your "guess that Demen's would just be another casualty of this new stadium as well," is not a terribly good guess.

[Ryan]

There are 20 or so Build it signs in the Pink Streets.
Anchored by my lawn!!!!
And I am proud to support it. Demens Landing wont be touched in fact it will be a centerpiece along with the ampitheatre and PARK (there is your precious park) just outside centerfield!

[not the same]

gary, you are comparing an apple and three cups of orange juice.

lots of people came into town for the race because its a multiple day event that you come and go from (go watch some race, leave and get food, come back to the race, leave and get food, watch the race, leave and go to your hotel, etc).

but locals, many, many, many locals did stay away from downtown. and if there were 80 race days a year, that would suck

irrelevant, however, because a baseball game, is not a three day race that draws that number of people to town in that fashion. it is a comparatively short event that the majority of people come to, enjoy, and then return home from

i understand your rationale, but consider that the two don't draw the same kinds of people in the same fashion and i think youll see where im coming from

[gary grooms]

Hi not the same,

Regardless of the "kinds of people" or the "fashion" they are drawn in they both involve people getting to grandstands on the waterfront. The estimated number of people in the grandstands and surrounding the track during the IRL race was supposedly about 75,000 people. I'm sure many, many locals stayed away from downtown on race day - but whoever made up the crowd they still had to drive here and still had to drive away.

The reason why it is perfectly analogous to use the race is the race has a specific end point - just like a baseball game - but much worse. In baseball it is very common for people to leave early because their team is behind or way ahead or they only want to catch a couple of innings (there are so many games in baseball) - or to beat the mad rush if all the cars are sitting on the same lot like they do at Tropicana. In my sole experience of parking at the Trop - I pulled in to the east lot during the 6th inning of a Yankees game. As I was going in people were streaming out because the Rays were down by 5 runs. At the end of the game me and the Yankee fans headed to our cars. It took me 20 minutes to exit the lot.

An average game at the new stadium might be 22,000 people. When the last pitch is thrown (I'm just guessing here) there might be 20,000 people in the stands. Now all 20,000 people stand up and head to their cars at the same time.

In car racing - people just don't leave early (except for weather reasons) - because anything can happen all the way to the final lap - and race fans don't want to miss a crash.

So, at the end of the IRL race, essentially 75,000 people got up from their grandstand seats on the waterfront and made their way to the various parking lots either on foot or by shuttle.

On an "average" baseball game less than a third of that number will get up from their grandstand seats on the waterfront and make their way to various parking lots either on foot or by shuttle.

A sold out baseball game will still have less than half the number of people on the waterfront heading home at the same time.

[mrclean]

Grooms you are an idiot

Is St. Petersburg making decent money on this thing? Could it make more hosting something else, like say a Superbowl of Motorsports, which, by the way, averages more fans than the Grand Prix of St. Petersburg? Depending on which race official you talk to, it's anywhere from 30,000 to 50,000 for the weekend; it seems folks are afraid to reveal a precise number because it will be low and make them look bad.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/access/1014638781.html?dids=1014638781:1014638781&FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Apr+2%2C+2006&author=SCOTT+PURKS&pub=St.+Petersburg+Times&edition=&startpage=2.C&desc=Is+the+Grand+Prix+of+St.+Petersburg+worthwhile+for+the+city%3F+%2F%2F+GIVE+ME+JUNIOR%2C+BIG+FOOT+OVER+WHAT%27STHEIRNAMES+Series%3A+FACEOFF%3B+CHAMPION

[Don Mott]

Gary, As I said before you are a spin doctor. You pull numbers out of your... well I don't really know what you pull them out of. But you never verify said numbers. 75,000? You don't mention over how many days this figure encompasses. You provide no proof that the numbers are real. But you seem to insinuate it was in one day. Baloney. And I have your response down to memory now, asking me to prove that the parking won't work. Well Gary I have told you I have no proof but I am not the one spewing out numbers, you are. I am just going on what I have read. Like I said the City staff has many doubts about the parking figures and they have the ultimate say don't they? When you spout numbers you gain a lot more credibility if you can back them up.

[gary grooms]

well mrclean and Don - I guess you guys are down to personal attacks.

The link mrclean sent is certainly verifiable proof.

Seeing that you guys think the mayor's opinion on parking counts more than professional parking consultants and actual experience, we can consider that in 2006 Mayor Baker personally estimated that 100,000 people bought tickets to the three day event http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/access/1016110261.html?dids=1016110261:1016110261&FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Apr+5%2C+2006&author=&pub=St.+Petersburg+Times&edition=&startpage=1.B&desc=Grand+Prix%27s+street+cred+loses+out+in+TV+land

Of course not all 100,000 people showed up on Sunday - but Sunday is the main event. Even if only half the people that bought tickets decided to watch the marque race -- it's still more than a baseball game.

Don, the city staff doesn't have the ultimate say whether this goes to referendum the City Council does. You are correct - you have no proof the parking won't work. However, I do have proof - the IRL race day the last few years.

mrclean - please provide me with the names, phone numbers and email addresses of the race officials you have spoken with so I can check out your "proof" - I promise I'll report back to Don so he can say "That isn't proof!"

[nope]

Gary, I respect your opinion and will not resort to insults, but I want you to know you're still comparing things that simply are not the same. I've been to the Grand Prix before (appropriately, the only time I went was back when I lived over in Tampa). We absolutely did not sit there all day long each day watching the race. We move around to different spots and came and went from the track like 20 times.

And yes, I did go to about 5 different restaurants and about as many bars over a 3-day period (no shops or museums though).

I've also been to plenty a Rays game. I hardly EVER go out to eat before or after the game. That wouldn't make any sense. I want my frickin' hot dogs and watered-down-piss beer! (plus, like most people, especially these days, I can't afford to do both).

Instead of comparing the economic impact of a rays game with the grand prix, try comparing the economic impact of a rays game with a...rays game. Please show me the benefit of current rays games, because I haven't seen it and seems all the research about baseball in general backs me up.

But if you want to stick with traffic and parking, then lets look at Boston, where the parking is handled in much the same way as the new Rays stadium would (lots of locations spread out up to 3/4 of a mile away). Guess how Boston rates as far as fan satisfaction when it comes to traffic and parking....second to last in the league (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/specials/fansurvey/2008/transportation.html).

AND Boston has one of the best public transit systems in the nation.

[gary grooms]

Hi nope,

Thanks for being polite.

When you went to the race - did you watch the IRL race? Did you stay till the end? Was the biggest singe crowd of the weekend for the IRL race?

I don't know the answer to my first two questions - but I can see a large portion of the track and grandstands from my balcony (not to mention ESPN coverage) - so I know the answer to the third question.

The economics are a lot more difficult to pin down than parking. Everybody can throw out numbers and analyses "verifying" all sorts of scenarios. I take a simple outlook. There are 26 other cities with MLB and it appears we are the only one debating if we should eliminate our team. Why are all these other cities keeping their team as well as other cities that would gladly take a team - if it is a net drain to the local economy?

On parking /traffic. Boston - New York - Washington all have great mass transit - something we need. They all also have horrible traffic and extremely expensive parking. We have great traffic and dirt cheap parking. Whatever happens in Boston, Baltimore, Washington, Atlanta etc. they get more people to the seats than we do - so it can't be all bad.

Currently we bring in more cars for a Yankee game than we would in the new stadium due to smaller capacity. Instead of putting all the cars on essentially one big sea of asphalt near the stadium we use little "lakes" of asphalt all over the city. This "parking plan" is not a new thing we aren't the guinea pigs for this.

Thanks again for a polite professional response.

[yep]

Not a problem. The Sox get a lot of fans because they're the Sox. They get a lot of fans coming to their games down here even.

If they were the Sux, however (fictional, so-so team with little history and a limited fan base), things would likely be much different.

Yeah, traffic is worse in Boston, but their public transit more than makes up for it AND STILL the spread out, off site parking leads to a greatly diminished fan experience. Remember also their stadium is accessible from all directions, ours would not be.

I am not debating eliminating our team, I don't want to see that happen. I'm also not debating a new stadium. I just don't want a new stadium where Al Lang is now. I also don't want to devote any significant amount of public resources to building a new ballpark any time soon because I think the money could be better spent, especially in these times.

[Don Mott]

Gary, I'm still waiting to see your proof. Other than your statements telling me it is so. So far your word that these things are true is all you have provided. 75,000 in one day? I guess you counted all of those cars from your balcony too. While you are at it can you show me proof that the neighbors other than yourself were not bothered? Since you have a parking garage and don't have to deal with people parking in front of your house you are immune to a lot of these problems I would think. The "professional parking consultants" hired by the Rays, by the way, have been batted down, pun intended, by City staff. And yes I misspoke. City staff does not have the final say but I think they carry a lot more weight than a "consultant" hired by the Rays. Oh, by the way I did not know it was considered a personal attack to ask someone to verify their numbers. I guess since you asked mrclean for names, phone numbers and email addresses we can ask you for the same. Or is that a personal attack? Keep spinning Gary! How did the Mayor get involved here? More spin? I'm beginning to wonder if maybe you have some financial interest in this deal?

[sick of POWW lies and thieves]

I knew POWW was full of elitist who want to take away people's right to vote. But I didnt know the extent of their willingness to win their cause by any means necessary. Three commercial properties on Central had "let us vote" signs stolen overnight after being up just one day. It just makes decent, honest citizens who respect the democratic process that much more determined to get this on the ballot.

[voter]

The previous writer said that it makes decent and honest citizens more determined to get it on the ballot. Let me add one thing to that comment: It makes us more determined to WIN in November and build this beautiful ballpark for all of St. Petersburg to enjoy. Keep it up POWW

[sick of lies about POWW and thieves calling other theives]

News flash, POWW has had hundreds of signs stolen over the past month. Over 3000 signs were stolen during the Albert Whited thing.

Get used to it, thats how it goes. No one from POWW is stealing signs or encouraging others to steal signs, just random people committing crimes. Stop placing the blame on people without any proof.

[sick of lies about POWW and thieves calling other theives]

By the way, what should we "vote" on? Tell me what the referendum should say...

[sick of POWW lies & thieves]

Glad to see you publicly admit POWW is the same minority group of activists that rammed your little private playground airport down our throats. How many millions in federal tax money did that new fancy terminal cost? What are there 30 people or 40 planes who use it? Convenient how you waterfront folks want public land for private use when you want it- but than call putting a baseball stadium on the site where a baseball stadium has been for 90 years- public land for private use. Keep it up POWW- you are your own worst enemy.

[sick of lies about POWW and thieves calling other theives]

Actually POWW includes people from both sides of the airport issue working together to stop the stadium from ruining our downtown.

But you didn't answer my question:

How should the referendum be worded? What should we ask voters to vote yes or no on?

[gary grooms]

Don,

The Mayor didn't get involved here - just used his quote about the number of tickets sold. You keep saying the same thing over and over again -"proof" However, you have never proved a single point of yours to the same standards you are demanding. Mrclean indicated he had spoken with race officials - I just followed your lead and asked for proof.

No, I don't have to deal with people parking in front of my house. The street in front of your house is owned by the City - not by you. You have a right to complain if someone parks in your driveway - not in front of your house.

You contend that the professional parking consultants were batted down by the City staff. Please provide proof that the City is correct on this.

[Jon McPhee]

Why is one of the most recent stadiums to be built so seldom mentioned in these discussions? If the Rays owners think that a new stadium and all this “development” are such a good deal, let them do like the business folks in San Francisco did in building AT&T Stadium for the Giants, and put together a set of wealthy risk takers, who can take the Rays Boys on, on more even terms. If the deal made sense to those guys, I’m sure they would snap it up in a New York second.

I don't think it's inaccurate or overstated to call Mr. Kalt and the Rays owners "carpetbaggers." These folks from New York understand how to sell smoke and mirrors, like "derivative" securities based on the archly-named "sub-prime” mortgages. They also understand how to reach into the public treasury to bail themselves out, with fortunes intact.

The deal-hawkers seem to think they are entitled to whatever they can squeeze out of the Pinellas peninsula, in exchange for - what? The way they are working this whole thing reminds me of a certain deep-sea predatory fish, the Megamouth. It has a little phosphorescent thingie at the end of a thin stalk that projects out over a mouth that’s almost as wide as its body is long, and is full of needle-point teeth. It lies on the bottom, its eyes staring up, and jiggles the little lure until something weak and edible comes to see whether the lure might be palatable. Then Slurp! and the curious critter is another bit of digested meat, whose bones get excreted out the other end.

It costs the city's leadership darn-all nothing, personally, to sign us all up for the millage increases and debt for generations to come that this latest Promised Land of "redevelopment" is supposed to bring. Maybe you might find it good for the community as a whole to let all of us know what Mr. Kalt may have offered to a few of us, in hopes of ginning up some momentum for this set of transactions. The City has neither the present incentive nor the legal horsepower to vet these complex deals accurately and safely for their impacts on the whole community, or to protect the whole against the greed of a few of its parts.

The Rays have a functional place to play baseball that, because it’s enclosed and cooled, can be used for other purposes. They have a pretty good deal already, since it costs the City more than it earns in lease payments to provide the Trop and the services that go with it.

[Don Mott]

Gary, Gary, Gary. How many times must I tell you I have no proof? I think this is the third time that I have stated that yet you continue to harp on it. It is also, I believe the third time I have told you that I am not spewing numbers, you have been though and those who spew numbers should be able to back them up. Do you have a hard time interpreting what I say or do you just disregard what doesn't suit you? How the heck can I provide proof that City staff is correct? Can you prove they aren't? No! Their statements were more or less recommendations and estimates which you well know. All I stated was what they said, nothing more, nothing less. Either your BVD's are in a real wad or you are dizzy from spinning so fast.

[Matthew]

Regarding disappearing signs: The City has a really strict ordinance about where signs can be places, how many inches from the sidewalk, etc. The City removes any sign that is not properly installed. That may explain some of the disappearances

[sick of lies about POWW and thieves calling others thieves]

I want everyone to notice my question about referendum wording was NEVER answered. That's because they are hoping to slip a vague, non-specific item on the ballot, such as "Do you agree to let the city extend the Rays' lease on Al Lang?"

It's ironic because the less specific the wording, the less "democratic" it actually is. If we can't vote on EXACTLY what we want, where we want it and how much its going to cost, it really strips us of our power as voters.

So the "Let Us Vote!" mentality is really misleading.

But, just to give you the benefit of the doubt, I will again ask:

How should the referendum be worded? What should we ask voters to vote yes or no on?

[gary grooms]

As to the referendum wording question. No one on this blog has a clue how it would be worded. The question needs to be asked of the people that would write the referendum. My guess would be that the City Council and Staff don't even know at this point how it would be worded.

However, I believe it will only ask about use of the Al Lang site. That is the only reason there would be a referendum. It's my understanding that there was no public vote to build Tropicana and none would be needed now - except for the use of the waterfront location. Personally, I think the referendum should be along the lines of:

YES - build a new stadium at the Al Lang site and redevelop Tropicana Field.

NO - release the Rays from their lease and ask that they move to another City before 2010. Redevelop Tropicana Field and create a new park at Al Lang with goal of moving the bus stations and "ambience" of Williams Park to this location.

[gary grooms]

Don - I have no problem with you having no proof - as long as you don't demand it of others. You are holding forth with an entirely unobtainable standard of proof for anything on the positive side of the debate while you admit that you have no proof on your side. Let's get off this "proof" thing and talk about the use of the waterfront which is the true heart of this issue.

[sick of scare tactics and people dancing around direct questions]

Gary, real rich. Nice scare tactic. People see right through that crap, however.

How about this:

Do you approve the construction of a new major league baseball facility on the current Al Lang site, at a maximum cost to taxpayers of (however much it will cost), to be completed by 2012 and funded by (however it will be funded)?

Yes/No

If you're just asking about extending the lease, how is that "democracy"? Why say "let us vote" and not "let us extend the lease"?

Fact is, you could care less about democracy; the pesky little vote requirement is just something standing in the way of you guys getting what you want, and you'll be happy to keep the referendum as ambiguous as possible.

[gary grooms]

Oh come on now. My YES side of the referendum was about right - the NO side was maybe a little funny.

But really, if the majority of people in St. Pete think that MLB is a financial drain then we should throw the Rays out. Isn't that democratic?

The referendum is a truly democratic process and I want to see this go to referendum. POWW has been trying hard to keep it off the referendum entirely why aren't you upset about their lack of respect for the democratic process?

Your wording on the referendum is actually pretty good. But I don't think it will work out that way. Seeing that we live in a republic and not a democracy the issues of cost, timing and funding source are not part of the question technically. The Council can decide to spend more money building a stadium in another place, more or less fund it as they wish and not ask for any type of vote.