Mayor considers August, not June stadium vote critical

Spoke with Mayor Rick Baker, who's in Tallahassee on Friday working on state environmental policy, about the Rays' stadium proposal. Some of his comments are likely to appear in a story this weekend. But I wanted to share this quote now.

I asked  Baker how he viewed the upcoming June 5 vote. As you know, some people say it's critical, others say it's not (they point to the Aug. 7 vote, the third of three needed referendum votes, as being the real critical vote.)

Here's what Baker had to say:

"I'm considering the August date to be the drop dead date on this. There continues to be a lot of questions we have to work through that will not be resolved by next Thursday."

Baker wouldn't say what his recommendation to council will be next week, but said he would have one. By the sound of things, it will be to keep the discussions going.

Practically, his recommendation is just that. The council can do as it pleases. However, Baker's voice likely will offer political cover to any council member on the fence about keeping talks alive.

Comments

[Ray F]

Thanks for the update Aaron.

I'm sure, for or against, everyone here agrees that this should scoot by the first 2 votes with a 'yes'.

As I said yesterday, it needs a 3 'yes' sweep to pass and only 1 single 'no' to fail.

It would be irresponsible of the council to blast the idea without giving it 3 votes.

[PS]

On the contrary, it would be irresponsible to continue based on the lack of details provided by the Rays. If they aren't able to provide any more details than their last presentation, then why proceed?

As I've said before, the Rays will drag this out to the last vote, unless the council demands milestones be reached for each subsequent vote. Why isn't this being done?

[Dr_Dug]

Mayor Baker in Tallahassee? It's obvious that the voters are don't want the waterfront stadium, so why don't those assclowns on the Council do what the people want? They're suppose to represent the people of St Pete, and were voted in office for that purpose. Time are changing and people are getting tired of electing people in office only to watch them turn "Godly" and go against the people who elected them. Mayor Baker, when he leaves office, will be working with the Rays as an employee or consultant, while his buddy(s)in construction will have a nice high-paying job secured during the recession. STAND UP ST PETE..Just like John "the child molester" who served on the Council, there are crooks on the City Council!!

[Taylor]

It's obvious that the voters don't want the stadium? I've been working a lot recently, so maybe I missed a vote...

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Aaron,

I'm going to the game Sunday at 1:40PM against the White Sox. Looking forward to it in fact since the Rays have begun kicking butt. Hooray for the Rays.

However I can state unequivocally that I wouldn't go if it wasn't in the Trop. Sitting through several hours of 90 degree weather is just not my idea of a good time, no matter how well the Rays play. It's the players that are supposed to put out the effort not the fan. Why should we have to sit in the heat and swelter. Perhaps I've missed it in the Rays proposal but are they saying there will never be another day game scheduled?

Remember it's still May and we're not close to July or August. Aaron are you still keeping your themometer feature going?

[Baseball should be outdoors...like in ALL the nice ballparks]

atrulyconcernedcitizen at 1:54,
Have you read any of the coverage of the very high-tech features of the new stadium designed to minimize heat and humidity? It will be cooler than the stadiums in Atlanta or Houston, and about on par with St. Louis or Cleveland. It's not going to be like going out to Fort DeSoto and sitting in the Florida sun!

Most people much prefer baseball played outdoors -- and the design of the new stadium makes it possible to have baseball outdoors comfortably even in the Florida heat. I think that's fantastic, not something to be alarmist about.

[Chris Jenkins]

How is it that people keep comparing going to the beach, which is in minimal clothing, and with the ability to go get soaking wet, with sitting in bleachers with 10,000 other people, all in street clothes?

Apples to Oranges much?

[Thomas]

Houston's stadium has a roof.

You know with your blind support and inaccurate information; if I didn't know better, I'd suggest you're really just Rick K.

Did you find those links to the economists universal agreement on stadiums Rick? The one's you said didn't exist?

[Don Mott]

I too believe council will approve the June 5th vote but not because it would be irresponsible. Rather they are more concerned about their political careers and are probably hoping the TDC and county will turn down their funding, which seems likely, thereby giving them an out. I may be wrong but I believe that the council originally told the Rays to have all of their finances in order before June 5th. As of yet I don't think they have accomplished that. I believe the council knows they are sitting on a voter time-bomb and are hoping someone bails them out so they can walk away and place the blame elsewhere if it eventually fails. These are just my thoughts and I cannot prove it of course.

[Ray F]

Don,

For once we have common ground on something. ;-)

Regardless of whether you're for or against, the council is screwed. If they don't allow it on the ballot, they will be purposely voted out by supporters.

...and if they do allow it on the ballots, they will be purposely voted out by the opponents.

sad, but true.

[John]

Don, an alternative view, even though I'm on your side.

I think there's a distinct possibility the council WILL kill this June 5th, to look like heroes and responsible leaders to their constituents (and to the county) who have made it clear they don't want this. Plus, they have asked the Rays repeatedly for a DETAILED financing plan, not a dog & pony slide show.

Not to mention, I'm sure they'd like to brush that little-bitty issue about ignoring the DEP for the past 8 years under the rug. Remember, they've been given only 60 days to respond, OR ELSE.

[Ahhhh . . the DEP]

. . . Or else they'll be given another 60 days. And then another 60 days. And then the DEP will take some time to do a study to determine if the city should get another 60 days. And then the DEP will atually give them another 60 days. And so on . . .

I'm not worried about the DEP . . .
neither is Raytheon for that matter.

[John]

To 4:42

You're probably right about the endless extentions, but you forgot a little detail. NOBODY can bulldoze those parking lots until the city comes "clean". Period. Once once they are bulldozed, the DEP nor that State will grant a land-use change until the site is cleaned up. How's that going to work on the Rays aggressive time-table????

[Big Croc]

If you don't want this to go to a public Vote then you are just fascist.

The council would be irresponsible to stop negotiations on a project this large prematurely. You all expect everything to be worked out day one. Of course there are hurdles. Why wouldn't you allow time for compromises that would benefit the cities future. If parking and unknowns aren't addressed then make your decision. Not voting is allowing a few to make decisions for all of us. You would be calling for the guillotine if the role was reversed.

[J]

Its funny that none of you ever knew what FDEP was before this. That's because you've never heard of them stopping a development. The same people who call SWFWMD swiftmud

[Chris Jenkins]

It's not about stopping it, J. We know that FDEP, and other agencies, wouldn't halt construction unless Chernobyl's little brother were discovered beneath the Trop's parking lot. Their job is to make sure that the development follows the established guidelines, and to fine and delay for violations of those guidelines. For example:

"Florida Gas has extended the expected in-service
date of Phase III by one month to February 1, 1995. In
September and October 1994, the Florida Department of
Environmental Protection (FDEP) halted construction of
the Phase III expansion in certain wetland areas as a
result of alleged violations of wetlands permits and
environmental regulations. These problems have been
aggravated by the large amount of rain that has fallen
along parts of the construction route. The FDEP has now
allowed Florida Gas to resume construction in all areas
except one area where it is still too wet to resume
construction without adverse environmental effects. The
FDEP has also fined Florida Gas $591,000. The expected
completion date for the Phase III expansion is therefore
dependent upon weather and certain other factors beyond
Florida Gas' control, and there can be no assurance that
the currently expected in-service date will occur on
February 1, 1995."

http://sec.edgar-online.com/1994/11/10/00/0000092236-94-000015/Section5.asp

I've said over and over again: it's not about the construction being nixed by these agencies; it's about unexpected leaps on the total bottom line to the city, and where that money comes from. Environmental issues are expensive. This isn't a chain yourself to a tree kind of issue, it's dollar and cents.

[j]

I agree that the cities Unsuitable soil liability should be capped. I just don't think the issue as big as advertised on the Blog. Nothing is left under the Trop itself and a large portion of the site was residential.

The reference you gave is more about direct wetlands impact. This is what FDEP is really for and makes sense that they would be more sensitive about that project. I worked on a project which evaluated the feasibility of construction over a uncapped pre 1950 landfill and all they just wanted us to do was keep or improve the existing water quality treatment and maintain a underground separation to prevent water migration. This site is pretty cut and dry in comparison.

If the developer covered all underground issues would this have any bearing on your support for the project??

[Chris Jenkins]

My take is fairly similar to Troxler's. If they would:

A. Guarantee to cover any over runs, both on redevelopment of the trop, including mitigation, new development of the Al Lang site, including mitigation, a guaranteed preset parking allotment purchase, a minimum guarantee pay out in property taxes on the Trop land whether the developer fills that retail and residential area or not, and a share of the naming rights.

B. Tie the development into substantive urban renewal projects such as a light rail system within Pinellas county.

See? I'm easy.

[Don Mott]

j, just a suggestion, maybe you should do more homework on the situation before posting your experienced analysis. By the way the development proposals put the ecological remediation on the city. Probably because they know it could be very time consuming and expensive. So that makes your question unimportant.

[Don Mott]

John@3:56 you may be right but my gut feeling is they will pass it through for now and hope that something else happens to cover their butts.

[get-smart]

Big Croc -

Fascist?? I love it! - Then I guess Baker is the Fuhrer Himself. The Al Lang site was promised to be put into the park system last year by the city council. The city staff (the Brown Shirts) fixed it so the council had to wait (stalled) before they (the council) would be able to vote on it. The Brown Shirts called it an oversight. There was no oversight. It was a secret until after the elections of our city council members. The Fuhrer Himself, with his evil axis allies, deprived us of an important issue that needed to be aired during this election. This contrived destruction of our downtown should never have come this far. A downtown waterfront stadium will suck the life out of the city.

So now you want to vote. Don't make me laugh. As far as I am concerned, by keeping it a secret, your Fuhrer has already voted for you! Not only that, your Fuhrer with his greedy Goldman Sachs criminal friends destroyed the 90 year tradition of St Pete spring training. That's something to be mad at. Why aren't you mad at that? These guys are greedy beyond belief. They are criminals! And you support them! Can you say, "Sieg Heil!"

I am glad the team is winning. I do not want to see them leave. However, I will not allow these Goldman Sachs criminals to hold me hostage because they threaten to move the team to some other city. I will call their bluff. There is no city today that is going to hand over $500M to these greedy Goldman Sachs criminals.

I hope the days of the sports corporate welfare schemes are over. I find it unconscionable for communities to take money out of the pockets of its poorest residents and give it to these millionaires. The whole point of a Waterfront Stadium is pure GREED and EGO. This is easy math. They are pumping up the value to dump it and then brag to their cohorts how smart they are. That is it! Nothing more! The owners don't care about our country or St. Pete. or baseball. They are cut from the same cloth as the criminal ex-governor of New York.

Please don't be mad at the forces fighting this debacle. We are on the side of Light and Good. Let us see if we can bring Spring Training back to Al Lang Field. We can try to undo the skulduggery of these New York criminals.

I believe most supports have a misplaced loyalty. You want your team to do good. You want to see the team supported by all of the residents... a full stadium. We want that too. We want to be proud of our team: The Ray and having "Rays Fever" and being part of a winning team and season.

The team owners look like decent chaps. The team is struggling. The owners are struggling. You feel their pain. You empathize with them. You think that they are really trying to make this season a success with free parking; bring in your own snacks; reaching out to the fans and community. You don't want to see them fail. I feel that emotional tug too. I want to see them win too. You think, "They are trying their best .. what can I do to help." You are a fan. That's how fans act.

The loyalty that you have for the team has been sparked by the teams public relations and cheer leading squads. That's a good thing. That's how wars are won. What you don't see is the man behind the curtain. This is the man that pulls all the levers. This is the man who engineered the end of a 90 year tradition of spring training in St. Petersburg. This is the man that says, "It's to expand the fan base." That is shear nonsense and the fans buy into the lie. The plan all along was to vacate Al Lang Field, build a new stadium, increase the value of the team and then sell the team off as the city falls into bankruptcy. The mayor is his accomplice in all of this with the city staff.

To me, this is criminal!

Cheers!

Long Live the Internet!

[Rick K]

I am not sure why some try to confuse the issues or distort the truth.

The voters of St. Pete did not have a city-wide election anytime recently about tearing down Al Lang and leaving open space there.

The part of these paired redevelopment proposals that pertains to Al Lang will IMPROVE the current use and ADD usable public parklands beyond what is there NOW.

The part of these paired redevelopment proposals that pertains to the TROP site will IMPROVE the current use and ADD usable public parklands beyond what is there NOW.

Some are convinced that there was an evil nefarious plot to deny citizens a voice in these proposals, without any actual evidence to support their fantasy. Interestingly, many of these people are the very same people who now wish to QUASH a vote.

On a different, and more important NOTE. GetSmart (In his 8:15 AM post) makes libelous/slanderous claims (when he calls the Ray's owners criminals). That is a violation of the RULES for these forums.

[Jon McPhee]

Once again, Rick, want some cheese to go with your whine? What a case of the pot calling the kettle sooty.

It seems to me that most of the “pros,” in the words of several here, “want it all,” want it now, and want somebody else to pay for it. Want a pretty quick read on the kind of thinking that the Rays owners bring to their “City-saving proposal?” Try

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/28/news/economy/disaster_sloan.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008033113

which tells how the same kind of privatization-of-gain, socialization-of-cost thinking inherent in the Big Deal is dragging down our national economy and that of other parts of the world too. Can Pinellas County afford a billion dollars of public costs for the lottery-ticket chance at a Rainbow’s End payoff?

[Jon McPhee]

And then of course there's this from another subsidy supporter:

“If this doesn't get done St. Pete will find itself in 1980 when it was an even more forgettable city than it is now. Maybe that is what POWW wants. When a city is forgettable, housing is cheap and Wal-Marts are plentiful. Wake up and let those not from Tampa Bay do what is really best for an area full of lazy noncompetitive residents. Good luck Stu!!”

Posted by: Thomas Strokes Don, May 28

Of course, in this world of Nothing-Is-What-It-Seems, maybe TSD is actually a POWW agent provacateur, who is just trying to foment class warfare. Or maybe not.

[Rick K]

Jon McPhee.

Your understanding of economics is staggering.

You could teach it on Mars.

[Paul]

Hahhahhha hahhh haaaaa haaa haaaaa haa. Rick, you are hillarious, 'violation of the rules'. Thats funny dude.

Didn't you just physically threaten to 'mop the floor' with someone on these blogs a few days ago? Isn't that a uhhh, oohhh, violation of the law? Maybe you like jail, I don't know. I mean, lots of guys in a small area together, just think of how much they'll like your genius know everything attitude. You can tell them all how silly, baseless, incorrect and unfactual they are. I'm sure they'll like that, a lot.

And for the record, I think the Rays owners are criminals as well. There, go ahead and report me, lol.

[Thomas]

Rick,

All of your opinions are immediately invalidated.

You've put up "challenges" and "wagers" and each time, after it's painfully clear to everyone that you are wrong - you disappear.

I'm sure this won't prevent you from posting - but it sure does let the rest of us know that you are an inaccurate, unaccountable, hypocrite.

Cheers!

[Chris Jenkins]

Rick's got a lot to say, and the fact is, his educational background is clear in his articulation. Unfortunately, so is his snooty academia approach. He suffers from the delusion that many in higher education do in that he assumes automatically that his viewpoint is correct, and brooks no fact or evidence which might challenge his perception.

That's the difference between someone involved in a conversation, and someone simply being a boor. Rick's not interested in learning anything...because he already knows it all, you see. He's just here to tell everyone else how they are wrong.

That's half the problem with these threads. Few people are really interested in having their ideas challenged. As a perpetual student in dialectics and epistemology, I am constantly open to the idea that there may be more to the story than I know, and I better myself by learning from others who provide me with that information.

I learned from Gary about unused parking in the area. I've educated Gary on the nuances of Albert Whitted, which he was not aware of.

Give and take is the purpose of conversation. Anything else is just ideological demagoguery.

Speaking of give and take, and conversation, I hope some of you will make it down to our Round Table discussion tonight. This isn't some televised debated where you have to prepare a speech. All you have to do is show up with your questions and concerns, and have some munchies and drinks while we chat about them, like fellow residents of a city who will all be affected by the final outcome.

An Open Round Table Discussion on the Proposed Waterfront Stadium
Hosted by Chris Jenkins and Gary Grooms

Where: The Globe Coffee Lounge
501 1st Ave N
St. Pete, Fl. 33701

When: Saturday, 05/31/08
7:00PM

What: It's time for the residents of St. Pete to get out from behind their computers and get together in person to talk about the future of our city. We've decided there's too much animosity in the conversations online, and it's time to act like civilized human beings, and have a real conversation about the issue, over snacks and drinks. Munchies will be provided, and there will be no formal structure. This isn't a televised debate; it's a casual evening of conversation and exploration among fellow citizens. The evening will begin at the Globe Coffee Lounge in St. Petersburg, and will include a walking tour similar to what might be expected on actual game days if the proposed stadium is built. This will allow us to meet the people behind the ideas, see the areas we are talking about in person, and get a feel for the businesses and spaces that would be affected by the proposal. Appetizers will be provided at The Globe, and beer, wine, sangria, and various non-alcoholic coffee type drinks will be available at the bar. Please come out and join your fellow city residents in a real conversation about this very important matter.

[Gene]

We went to a game last week and had a good time. We haven't been to a game in several years as haven't been regular fans since the strike years back. We used to go to games in whatever city we were visiting and had a game going on but not anymore.

We were pleasantly surprised at the courtesy and friendlyness of all the workers. The Trop looked awesome compared to our last visit. The money they have put in is well spent. You have the feel you are in an outdoor park with what they have done. It looked fresh and new and clean. Good job owners. We may come again. But we see now reason for a stadium. All the promises of development 20 years ago have never happened around it and probably won't in the new plans. The only business that has thrived consistently is Fergs. If they want to pay for a new stadium fine but still feel to draw the numbers it should be built on the land out near 75 between Tampa and Brandon so that there are larger numbers to draw fans from. You can't draw fans from the water. I don't think we would gain enough in new tax base to start over.

[Rick K]

Gene's post is a welcome breath of fresh air in this already stale back and forth between two polarized camps.

But, the logic confuses.

If you believe that Stadiums like the Trop/Newly Redone Al Lang Field don't do much in the way of stimulating local businesses,

Or if you think that public ownership of the Rays' home stadium costs more than it generates in economic benefits,

Then WHY aren't you in favor of these PAIRED redevelopment proposals, which offer a chance to mitigate the damage from both of those conditions.

Redevelopment of the Trop site will reduce the net negative public cost for the two existing baseball stadia downtown.

Also, tax income from the redeveloped Trop site will help to reduce (and in fact completely overcome) the amount of ongoing public expenditures related to stadium ownership.

It's a contradiction which defies common sense. Which means that the ANTI's have succeeded in fooling the public into thinking that these proposals are ONLY about a new stadium for the Rays.

[Thomas]

First off, based on the poll results, instead of "ANTI's" please refer to us by our new name: the "VAST MAJORITY's"

Next, there's no guarantee that the tax income from the redeveloped Trop site will reduce the amount of ongoing public expenditures related to stadium ownership.
In fact, under scrutiny, the numbers the developers list on the proposal are absurd.

That's why us "VAST MAJORITY's" are against the plan. Because it doesn't add up.

[Ray F]

Thomas,

Tell that to the idiot who decided to build a mall near the International Airport.

I'm sure his numbers looked the same.

What about building an entertainment district at Channelside??? -Talk about an area I wouldn't have been caught in after sunset in the past.

I'm sure you would love to look back in 5 years and say that you were right when there wasn't a stadium built. But how would you actually know you were right?

How would you say that not building the stadium was better than building one, if one was never built?

It's called taking risks. We're extending a tax that we can't use now anyway. What's the difference? We'll pi$$ it away on something stupid anyway. How about we build a round-about at 4th St N and 22nd Ave N???

It's my understanding that, by law, the tourist tax cannot be used towards schools or police/fire (correct me if I'm wrong). Last time I checked, the beaches were doing just fine.

[Rick K]

Talk about straw man arguments....

There are no gaurantees, period.

I have never heard of any development of the type proposed here that comes with an overall guarantee.

So to pretend that these deals are okay, but all they lack is something that is impossible -- well that is just goofy.

Thomas says that the pro forma numbers developed by experienced successful developers are absurd. That's right folks, Thomas, who has developed ZERO properties of this type, thinks he knows more than the professional experts hired by people who are going to risk hundreds of millions of dollars.

I think THAT is absurd.

[Let us vote NO!!!]

Ray F said:

"Last time I checked, the beaches were doing just fine."

Ray, you're really getting sloppy. The bed tax $ would go for beach renourishment and/or marketing our beaches to tourists. You know, those people that keep us from having to pay a local income tax???

Considering the Rays just STOLE spring training for us, which was a tourist draw to our downtown & beaches for DECADES, those beaches just might want that money to help replace those tourists that will now be going to Port Charlotte next Spring. Oh but wait, that bed tax $ is already tied up for another 7 years to pay off the Trop, so the beaches I guess are screwed. Perhaps that's why they're having a war in St. Pete beach over HOW TALL all those new CONDOS can be without destroying the character of the beach??

Man, you people for the stadium REALY need to open your eyes and see how this affects EVERYONE in this county, not just you selfish little basesball-loving, spoiled, whiny cry babies.

The TDC by way of the BOCC is going to beotch-slap Mike Kalt and Rick Baker within the next 60 days. And then, this will be over. And yes, I TOLD YOU SO.

[Let us vote NO!!]

Oh, but the Trop redevelopment, let's call it "The Tropicana Housing Authority", will bring millions of new tourists to see its state of the art Amscot Check Cashing stores, T-Mobile kiosks, a few liquor stores and perhaps the world's largest HESS station. Man, how exciting!!

Redevelop the Trop with the inclusion of a 4-star hotel on the property. Lure more non-baseball events year-round. Give incentives to help grow Central between 9th & 16th. Do what the original plan was supposed to do and bring downtown to the Trop, not the other way around. Morons....

[Ray F]

I'm going to step on some toes here, but oh well.

A lot of people are complaining that funding a new stadium would make "a bunch of New Yorkers richer"

I got news for a lot of people...

Howard Johnson, Hilton, Best Western, etc. aren't owned by any of our neighbors. Most of the "mom and pop" places are imigrants who receive so many federal grants their heads are still spinning.

...and the majority of the actual locally owned hotels use the Rays in their brochures as a draw and the "bay area" being a mecca for Spring Training. If anything, sending the Rays to Port Charlotte will boost Clearwater, Dunedin, and Tampa attendance because last time I checked, I don't need 10 games each spring to watch a bunch of rookies play when I can watch the real team in April.

Sorry

[Let us vote NO!!]

It's all about you, Ray, right? It's all about what Ray F and what Rick K need...well, you're about to be in for a very rude awakening.

[Chuck]

Well thanks to Ray & Rick, at least one thing is for sure. All those baseballs my parents got autographed by Whitey Ford, Babe Ruth, Roger Mares, etc etc etc when they used to party at the original Mastrys downtown during Spring Training back in the day will now be worth even more, since yet another tradition has been taken away from us.

But I understand Ray, preserving history and honoring great traditions mean squat to you, as long as you get what you want.

[Rick K]

To let us vote no!!

I will not be rudely awakened.

Based on the Times poll, it looks like the voters may very well choose to vote NO.

That would not rudely awaken me.

I have known it is a real possibility all along.

I want there to be a vote.

I am not at all sure about how it will come out.

Got it?

[Thomas]

"Thomas says that the pro forma numbers developed by experienced successful developers are absurd."

The Hines estimate (Table C) projects $29,032,500 in new sales taxes for the City and State in the FIRST YEAR.

In order to meet that estimate, consumers would need to spend $414,750,000 each year in taxable sales- just in the Trop redevelopment zone.

That's $1,136,301 of new sales EVERY DAY.

And that's JUST in the Trop redevelopment area.

When your done laughably trying to defend that absurd estimate, tackle this next:

How much of that spending would be new dollars. You know, not money that is just shifted from existing retail but the net impact for the city, Rick.

What you and Hines are suggesting is that the city of St.Pete is going to all of a sudden have $414,750,000 of additional buying power, simply because the Trop site gets redeveloped.

Did Hines buy there estimates from the same guy who sold Jack his Beanstalk Beans?

Back to you Rick. Thrall us with your acumen...

[Rick K]

Chuck:

I did not steal your parent's baseballs. I have not stolen anything.

Silly, Chuck.

I am in favor of letting staff do their jobs, moving the process along to the point where the citizens of St. Pete will get to VOTE.

I am very, very happy with the prospect of living with what the voters decide.

I am not sure why you wish to pretend that I want a new stadium at Al Lang, come hell or high water.

I want full and fair public debate, followed by a vote by the people of St. Petersburg (and the county too, if the BOCC could find a way to let county residents vote).

In short, I want the people to decide.

Not just the scammers in poww. But the voters of the City.

[Thomas]

I said this once before:

If the Bed Tax cannot be used to fund fire/police/public needs -then- wouldn't the smarter referendum be to change how the money can be used instead of giving to the Rays.

[Ray F]

Yeah Chuck,

Because I personally moved the Rays Spring Training to Port Charlotte... right.

Get real. I have plenty of Cal Ripken, Ozzie Smith, and Lenny Dykstra autographs from when I used to ride my bicycle to Al Lang for. But you know what, i could get to a Rays/Yankees game and get an Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, or Melky Cabrera autograph pretty darn easy (I left the names as all Yankees for you since you are obviously a big fan).

It's spelled MARIS by the way, genius.

[Let us vote NO!!!]

Thomas, that's a county charter issue, not for St Pete to decide. The TDC would have to approve it, and as you'll see in the coming weeks, they're quite tired of handing money they desparately need over to ANYONE except their own constituents.

[JUDGE]

The JUDGE has reviewed the facts, and makes the following findings:

The Tourism Development Council will NOT vote against this proposal.

It is so ORDERED and ADJUDGED.

[Steve Lange]

Ray F:

Channelside and International Mall were private developments not paid for with public dollars.

The Ray's stadium scheme is 100% City money, redirected state sales tax money, Pinellas County hotel/bed tax money and City waterfront land, 12.4 acres of it.

Ray F: You do not see a difference here?