Meet the Rays' newest political consultant

[Dirk Shadd | Times]

We here at Ballpark Frankness hear that the Tampa Bay Rays have hired high profile Clearwater land use attorney Ed Armstrong to help make the Rays' case before the Tourist Development Commission and Pinellas County Commission.

Those of you who know Pinellas politics, likely know Armstrong. But if you don't, let's just say he's pretty effective at his job. He's also not cheap.

Comments

[That idiot loser who always says first comment]

First

[rayray]

Let's Build It & Ed's going to help us get done by proving this proposal is only positively beneficial to the city, county, & entire bay area and in no-way a detriment environmentally or financially.

Way to step up 1st place Rays on & off the field.

What another beautiful day in St. Pete.

[Chuck]

Ed Armstrong is a paid shill! Oh wait....that's exactly what he is and this is a VERY good thing.

[Rick K]

Yes. Now that the Rays have come out in the open with their paid shill, those of us who have been shillin' on this blog can give it up.

Whew!

[Peter]

Oh...like I'm so impressed. Yea....Like I believe this guy. What he is from...Doowey, Suem, and How? Sorry...I have my own brain, thank you.

[Chris Jenkins]

Ed's job won't be to woo the public, it will be to make nice nice with all of the various governmental, environmental, and other regulatory agencies who might present an obstacle to the forward movement of this deal. He may give a press conference or two, but don't expect him to be out there doing the amateur shill job you see some of the paid bloggers in here doing.

He's whatcha call a big gun. ;) Think Michael Clayton for developers.

[Paul]

If it were such a great idea, to destroy our waterfront, then they wouldn't need this uber lawyer to fight the TDC, now would they? oh, sorry, 'make the Ray's case'.

[John]

This is the funniest story to-date on this whole issue. The TDC is going to wipe the floor with this clown. Seems strange, The Rays can handle negotiations with a city government of 250k people but they can't handle the TDC? LOLOL!!!!

Here's the website of the actual council members.

http://www.pinellascounty.org/tdc/pdfs/Board-Listing.pdf

Take a gander at the list. See if any of them might have an interest in keeping the bed tax for their constituents, rather than handing it to a baseball team for the next 30+ years.

I can not WAIT until they (the TDC & BOCC) shut this whole sham down by telling the Rays NO NO NO. But they will throw Stu a curveball, and again offer him Toytown land for free that they've already snubbed their noses at.

And I expect the day after the city council votes to keep the dialogue open on Al Lang, they will be sued by POWW or perhaps another group that rightfully claim this whole issue is moot, because the city council already voted last year (based on the citizens demands) to create a new ordinance making Al Lang forever a public park.

And please continue with the Albert Whitted bashing. I find it hilarious that the proponents of this deal can not get it through their thick skulls that the voters overwhelmingly saved the airport for generations to come, regardless of how under-utilized it may be. That should tell you all you need to know about what matters to the majority of voters in this city. The immediate waterfront is off-limits for any future development.

[Ray F]

Does it matter that there is a street between the proposed stadium (and the existing one)? Since it technically won't be "waterfront". That's a real question. I'm not trying to spit rhettorical nonsense. I really want to know because it doesn't seem like they are having too hard of a time putting 30 story condo complexes 2 blocks away.

From a mile into the bay, that looks waterfront to me.

[John]

You're right Ray, and from a mile out in the bay I can see the Trop, too, so I guess that's also waterfront....seriously? LOL

[PA Cement Mixer]

Dredge up the whole friggin bay!
Chum the water with manatee carcasses!

BASEBALL is American's past time you friggin' limp-wristed, non-athletic weanies!!!

[Aaron Sharockman]

Ray F---
I think you asked a good question. Al Lang is considered "waterfront" because the City Charter calls it so... It doesn't matter that it's actually not on the waterfront. That piece of land is particularly protected as a waterfront park. As such, any lease of more than five years must be approved by voters at referendum.

[Ray F]

Thanks for the insight Aaron, keep up the good work. I appreciate how you put even the slightest sliver of info that may be pertinent to this issue. For or against, we appreciate the work.

[John]

And to expand on my point why the TDC is not going to go for this; The TDC, the beach mayors, the hotelliers, small businesses on the beaches, etc. are all very upset that the Rays just up and moved spring training to Port Charlotte. Spring Training has been a HUGE tourist draw to our south county beaches for decades. What will replace those tourists? You guessed it, that bed tax money will be needed to advertise to replace those Feb-May snowbirds that won't be coming here to vacation for spring training after this year. You gotta admit the Rays have some serious cajones if they think they're going to get any favors from the TDC after taking away a 90+ year tradition in St. Petersburg & the beaches, AND wanting the bed tax money TOO?? HA!! LMFAO!!!

[John]

And another thang!! In removing spring training from St. Pete, the motels, restaraunts, bars & shops on the beaches have essentially lost a chunk of their "tourist season", the time of year that coincided with spring training in which they make most of their revenue for the year. As you'll see in the coming years, fewer and fewer of those mom & pop motels & small businesses that depended on spring training and "tourist season" will be able to survive, and in larger numbers will continue selling out to condo developers, further turning our beautiful beaches into condo canyons. So you see, this Rays plan not only destroys our downtown waterfront, it also has side effects that will help ruin our beaches and cost us tourist related jobs & businesses even further. And one last point; the reason we don't have a state income tax in Florida is because????? Anyone???? Our once thriving tourist industry brought in enough tax revenue to not require a state income tax....pour some salt in that wound and take away the bed tax so we can't effectively market our beautiful beaches to tourists, and you'll eventually be shelling out even more of your hard-earned paycheck in the form of a state income tax to make up for those tourists you drove away. All for a friggin baseball stadium? I don't THINK so.

[get-smart]

John -

The whole point of a Waterfront Stadium is pure GREED and EGO. They are pumping up the value to dump it and then brag to their cohorts how smart they are. That is it! Nothing more! The owners don't care about our country or St. Pete. They are treasonous criminals. They get away with it because they hid behind the Fed.

If these people lived in China, Russia or Iran they would have been executed for treason. They outsourced our jobs and they control the commodities where as they will now push oil to $200/bbl.

They are cut from the same cloth as the criminal ex-governor of New York.

Go Rays!
--

[Gadfly]

The minds of the vast majority of St. Pete voters has already been made up. The proposed stadium down town will be defeated and by a large margin.

It does not matter what the Rays do from this point forward. This community is not going to spend new dollars on a new stadium when we already have a perfectly good one now.

The Rays had better prepare themselves for the loss.

[Bill Clay]

Ed Armstrong hired to clean up Bernie Campbell's mess with local government?

[Jason]

To all those who talk about saving our waterfront and don’t want any dredging can I remind you that all of your waterfront east of beach drive was dredged and filled by Snell himself. Of course that’s the reason Beach drive is now longer on the beach. So the argument is really Save our Dredged waterfront.

Baseball has been at that location for 90 years and some want to tear down a stadium and put in another park. It’s cut off from the rest of Straub park by Bayfront tower and the Yacht club so unless you tear those down it will be a underutilized park standing alone and we the tax payers will pay to keep it up. I guess it’s OK for Bayfront tower to be on the waterfront where parks should be but not a baseball stadium.

We would also pay for the demolition of Al Lang and the construction of the park itself. We’re probably talking about 8 million out the door with no return plus maintenance cost each year. Per capita we have a higher percentage of parks than any other city in the nation. You pay for that too.

If you want one more 15 acre park and want to move the Rays to Charlotte than you should go ahead and put up the red sign.

[Jason]

To all those who talk about saving our waterfront and don’t want any dredging can I remind you that all of your waterfront east of beach drive was dredged and filled by Snell himself. Of course that’s the reason Beach drive is now longer on the beach. So the argument is really Save our Dredged waterfront.

Baseball has been at that location for 90 years and some want to tear down a stadium and put in another park. It’s cut off from the rest of Straub park by Bayfront tower and the Yacht club so unless you tear those down it will be a underutilized park standing alone and we the tax payers will pay to keep it up. I guess it’s OK for Bayfront tower to be on the waterfront where parks should be but not a baseball stadium.

We would also pay for the demolition of Al Lang and the construction of the park itself. We’re probably talking about 8 million out the door with no return plus maintenance cost each year. Per capita we have a higher percentage of parks than any other city in the nation. You pay for that too.

If you want one more 15 acre park and want to move the Rays to Charlotte than you should go ahead and put up the red sign.

[Kevin]

Jason, my red sign is already up, and yes I would like another park and yes, I would like to keep that distinction of having the most per-capita parks in this entire nation, forever. That is the reason people fall in love with this area.(including most if not all non-natives posting on this blog and also including the people we can thank for making that so, Perry Snell & Bill Straub). NOT BECAUSE OF A BASEBALL STADIUM. How many people moved to St. Petersburg because the Rays play here? aaaahahahahahahaha!!!!!

[Don Mott]

Jason, let me give you a feel for the way this community feels about parks, and I'm referring to the entire county. The City of Largo wanted to buy the Taylor property at Keene and Bellair Rds and build a residential project. The Mayor himself said at the time that the city had enough parks and green space. The county wanted to buy the property and turn it into a park. Guess who ended up with the property. Not sure where you came up with the 8 million dollar figure, are you a demo expert? Anyway it would be a lot cheaper than 450 million plus and 35 years of payments don't you think?

[Faith Andrews Bedford]

Jason, A point of clarification. Bayfront Tower is not on the waterfront (if you count fronting on Bayshore as waterfront)It is on Beach Drive. Just north of Al Lang is another small and beautiful park called Pioneer Park, bordered by First and Central, Beach and Bayshore. Yes, the Yacht Club blocks the flow of parks but it's been there almost since Straub and his friends created the park system, which will be 100 years old in 2009.

It is the beautify of our waterfront that draws people here, not baseball. According to the Rays pwn figures, with 17,000 people, on average (looks like that may be dropping), attending a game that means that if the stadium held ONLY St. Petersburg residents it would mean that only 7% of our taxpayers are going to games. Translate that to Tampa Bay residents in general and you are seeing that attendance is only 0.05% of those who live in the Tampa Bay area. Why would the other 93% of the citizens of St. Petersburg want to spend our taxpayer money and give away our precious public land and waterfront so a tiny majority can enjoy a sport that only enriches the owners?

[Faith Andrews Bedford]

Jason, A point of clarification. Bayfront Tower is not on the waterfront (if you count fronting on Bayshore as waterfront)It is on Beach Drive. Just north of Al Lang is another small and beautiful park called Pioneer Park, bordered by First and Central, Beach and Bayshore. Yes, the Yacht Club blocks the flow of parks but it's been there almost since Straub and his friends created the park system, which will be 100 years old in 2009.

It is the beautify of our waterfront that draws people here, not baseball. According to the Rays pwn figures, with 17,000 people, on average (looks like that may be dropping), attending a game that means that if the stadium held ONLY St. Petersburg residents it would mean that only 7% of our taxpayers are going to games. Translate that to Tampa Bay residents in general and you are seeing that attendance is only 0.05% of those who live in the Tampa Bay area. Why would the other 93% of the citizens of St. Petersburg want to spend our taxpayer money and give away our precious public land and waterfront so a tiny majority can enjoy a sport that only enriches the owners?

[Not the Jason that just posted]

How many people didn't move to St. Pete because instead of a park they had Al Lang there? How often do you go to a waterfront park and see people lined shoulder to shoulder?

[Jason]

I know Bayfront towers has a tiny park called Pioneer park in front of it but it is still the only residential condo project that has ever been allowed east of Beach drive. I'm sure there was quite a stir when they originally proposed it.

On the park system I am a third generation native who enjoys and loves the park system and services. It is one of the reasons we are becoming a great city. Professional Sports can be another. Baseball was at the Al Lang site when Straub Park was created so I think Baseball and Park land can coexist. The size of the baseball stadium vertically does not effect your experience of Straub park or Demons landing. They are actually adding a park that would be comparable with Pioneer Park. This is more than is there currently. From a urban design standpoint the site isn't remote enough to stand alone as a viable park nor is it able to be a continuation of Straub Park. It is better as a continuation of the urban fabric.

Maybe because I once went to lightning games before they moved to Tampa or even the Storm, both stolen by Tampa, but I would just like to have a facility and a team to be proud of and represent St. Pete. to the nation. An aside I also think they should be called the St. Petersburg Rays and I correct those who don't Say Bay when cheering Tampa --- Rays at games.

One bit of Irony, I design parks for a living so to answer the other question about the future cost of demo and redevelopment of the Al Lang land as a park, yes I do know a little about the subject and I'm probably low if you would like more ammenities in the park.

[Jason]

Faith,
St. Pete flips the bill for Albert Whitted and loses money every year to accomodate the few 250 airplane owners. That is private money going straight to wealthy owners. We just built a private plane terminal as well. How much national exposure or economic development do we recieve from the airport. If we had removed the airport we could have built a stadium, parking and a huge waterfront park with a heck of a better view than the small channel Al Lang looks over towards Demons Landing.

Also, your math regarding the attendance of games to the overall population is assuming that the same 17,000 people attend every game and don't allow anyone else to visit. I'm sure the Rays would like that many season ticket holders.

I would like to take my two year old to games when he can remember the experience. It's too bad that more people don't realize that this will seal the fate of Baseball in St. Pete if this is opposed. I guess for some maybe thats the object. Times are tough but this thing isn't going to take anymore money out of your pocket. No spring training and no MLB.

[Jason]

Faith,
St. Pete flips the bill for Albert Whitted and loses money every year to accomodate the few 250 airplane owners. That is private money going straight to wealthy owners. We just built a private plane terminal as well. How much national exposure or economic development do we recieve from the airport. If we had removed the airport we could have built a stadium, parking and a huge waterfront park with a heck of a better view than the small channel Al Lang looks over towards Demons Landing.

Also, your math regarding the attendance of games to the overall population is assuming that the same 17,000 people attend every game and don't allow anyone else to visit. I'm sure the Rays would like that many season ticket holders.

I would like to take my two year old to games when he can remember the experience. It's too bad that more people don't realize that this will seal the fate of Baseball in St. Pete if this is opposed. I guess for some maybe thats the object. Times are tough but this thing isn't going to take anymore money out of your pocket. No spring training and no MLB.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Leroy is back! This weekend besides going to all the Rays games, I went down to enjoy our parks in downtown st. Pete. What i found out was, People don't hangout and enjoy the parks south of the Vinoy. Their were only people that live in bayfront tower walking their dogs in pioneer park. Did you people know that you have a park next to Albert Whitted Airport? I don't think you do. Their were 3 people there on Saturday! They were only there because they were watching to planes take off. You want another park but you people don't use the ones you already have. Demon's Landing had alot of traffic, but mostly people going to their boats, people fishing off the point. I saw a total of 4 joggers down on the waterfront by al lang. That was in a three day period! I went down to enjoy our beautiful waterfront and it seemed like i was the only person there for three straight days.
I spoke to a police officer on sunday that was on duty working that area down by the bayfront. You know south of the yacht club. He said that that area is going to waste no one is ever down there. He has been working sunday's down there for the last two years. He also said that SPPD is for the redevelopment of the trop site and al Lang field. (not just this one police officer, the whole department)
You "anti's" say hit the bricks so i did and thats what i came up with. If you don't believe me, you should head down there next weekend and check it out for yourselves!

[Jon McPhee]

If Jason designs parks for a living and thinks Albert Whitted would be a good place for a stadium, just curious what he thinks of vehicle access to that area. Whether Al Lang or Al Whitted, it seems to me that moving 6-8,000 vehicles into and out of that area would be, if not a nightmare, at least a really bad dream, at least 81 times a year. I have no brief for aircraft owners per se, and it is a little offensive that the airport for “security reasons” is off-limits to everyone else. And that hedge that keeps you from even seeing across the tarmac from street level – what gives?

But is having every possible open parcel on the tax rolls, and then driven by tax policies to a “highest and best use” of high-rise high-density development, the path to a “successful” St. Pete in the future? Too bad we can’t get a trustworthy poll of the broad range of taxpayers, native and imported, to see what they value in their community, what brought them here, and what keeps them, or what might be on the point of driving them away. I guess we all have our opinions on what the future ought to look like, especially if we can get everyone else in Pinellas (except maybe the Rays owners) to pay for it, including those bonding experiences at Major League Baseball games. Maybe these occasional referendums are the closest we can come to that kind of poll.

None of what we’re going through with respect to the Rays’ subsidy demand is at all new, in any event. The Whitted debate had all the same elements, including behind-the-curtain actions by elected officials (including the Mayor, who likes the phrase “fait accompli” and is apparently proud of his efforts at spring-the-surprise initiatives), pro-development editorializing by the Times, and a similar set of arguments about taxes, best use and the value of waterfront. Check out this study by some FSU folks:

http://consensus.fsu.edu/academic_directory/2004casestudies/AirportJasonChad.pdf

Like another baseball great once observed, “It’s deja voo all over again.”

[get-smart]

Jon McPhee

Good Article. To me the dispute is not between building or not building a stadium. It is allowing these greedy Goldman Sachs criminal cretins to stuff their pockets with our tax dollars and destroy our waterfront to boot.

Resolution 1- Build a new stadium on the existing Trop site in conjunction the clean-up and redevelopment. 100% Rays financed.

Resolution 2- Build a new stadium at Toytown. 100% Rays financed. Sell off the existing Trop site. Private redevelopment and clean-up.

Resolution 3- Have the Rays leave. They can build a new stadium in Charlotte next to the airport by I85. Sell off the existing Trop site. Private redevelopment and clean-up.

THE DOWNTOWN WATERFRONT IS OFF LIMITS!

-

[Rick K]

To Jon McPhee:

Thanks for that Link. It's an interesting read.

[get-real]

How is it destroying the waterfront when a baseball stadium has always been there? And when you keep reiterating that the owners are greedy and thats pretty much your only consistent point it makes you sound jealous.. Just an observation.

[Rick K]

LEROY, the results of my very limited small scale field research mirrors the results you discovered.

Practically no one uses these parks. I walked around one day last week. I asked several people at USF how often they walk around to the parks surrounding that campus or otherwise enjoy bits of downtown. A dozen people honestly told me "never", and they said it with shame, as though they feel guilty for NOT doing it.

I asked a half dozen kids who live on campus. They said that they occasionally venture downtown for entertainment (when there is something going on at Vinoy park), but that, otherwise, they rarely leave campus.

I asked two groups of campus employees how often they enjoy the parks, either by themselves, or with other coworkers or their families.

I understand my research is far too small and completely unscientific.

But there you go. A teaspoon of data.

[Chris Jenkins]

Rick, are you sure you were at the USF campus? My girlfriend attends there, and she, and all of her friends, RARELY spend any time on campus outside of class hours unless they have to, and they are CONSTANTLY downtown, at Jannus landing, patronizing the establishments there which cater to college students. She works at FWRI next door to the campus, and they frequently walk the area along the waterfront, practically daily, and bring lunches out to eat there.

I'm part of a small circle of friends who loves to fish that area, despite our lack of fishing success, and we are never alone out there when we go.

So, there's a tablespoon to meet your teaspoon. Just as unscientific, but since it's anecdote day, figured I'd join in.

[get-real]

Chris why is yours a tablespoon and his a teaspoon? Did you provide 3 times as much research? No wonder the nays think they will win 3:1.. they think that they count 3 times!

[Rick K]

Sometimes it is the little things that are most revealing.

Get-Real's 9:27 AM post is dead on!

[The Big Picture]

Jason,

I am not sure how you figure that "Bayfront Towers is east of Beach drive".

Prior to bayfront towers being built there was a restaurant there called the Chatterbox. So that property had never been part of the waterfront park system. Also I am not sure if you are aware that Pioneer park was purchased by the residents of Bayfront Towers and donated to the City.

[Practical Man]

In a City with more than 200,000 residents, in a County with close to 1,000,000 residents, there are rarely more than a few dozen people using the hundreds of acres of waterfront parks.

It seems the question should be reframed:

Are you in favor of improvement projects which aim to bring more people downtown, or do you think that the City's best asset should be enjoyed only by an extremely small portion of the population?

[Practical Man]

I am curious to know how people answer this question:

Why is it okay to use public funds to subsidize marinas, private airports, commercial airports, tourist destinations, cruiseports, entertainment venues, museums, schools, youth sports, arts, education facilities, parks, open spaces, Races, rallies, and a host of festivals and celebrations, but not okay to do it for baseball?

[Rick K]

In reply to Practical Man's two questions.

To your first question, I am in favor of improving downtown by redeveloping the ugly, underutilized (and apparently slightly contaminated) Trop Field Site, AND, converting the grossly underutilized Al Lang field (plus the ugly surface parking lots and Minor League BB offices) site into a more exciting, more inviting combination of pro baseball stadium and community open spaces.

Of course, the following caveat goes with my support. I am in favor of these paired redevelopment proposals IF the numbers make sense and there are no known negatives that I regard as huge (such as destroying all baylife or causing little kids or kittens to die).

As to your second question, I think it is obvious. There is no rational basis for supporting massive public investment in all the things you list but claiming that baseball is sufficiently different from those other areas in which the public invests.

Thanks.

[Will Ferrell]

This thread needs more cowbell.

[Will Ferrell]

This thread needs more cowbell.

[Don Mott]

Practical Man, Other than Albert Whitted airport none of the things you mentioned were done by the vote of the people, they were government decisions. To say that we should continue to finance a privately owned business that benefits only a few is ludicrous. Should we fill in more of the bay and create more land just because they did it 60 or 70 years ago?

[Vote for St. Pete even if your anti-baseball]

Don Don Don, save the Airport is the perfect example of knee jerk voting ignorance.

Albert Whitted airport is at least twice the acreage of the entire Dome site and on the most valuable real estate in the city. Because of ignorant lies a group not unlike POWW and many of the same figures saved the airport. They used the same scare tactics saying there would be condos on the waterfront when the master plan displayed by the city and showed a huge waterfront park extension. Mixed use development increasing the taxbase and the downtown footprint was also included.

So instead of tax revenue and new public park land the vote went to support 250 wealthy airplane owners and a 300-500 thousand dollar city loss per year. Oh yeah and a new empty private terminal.

Your not voting just about a waterfront stadium. Your voting to take back 86 acres for our downtown. It was originally a private dense urban area with a whole "Gas Plant" neighborhood along with the industrial.

Give the parking lot back to the people and reduce baseball footprint.

Don, is your real motive to move the Rays to your hometown in LARGO, maybe central park?

[Ray F]

Excuse my ignorance because I'm guilty of not reading 100% of the words on every single post; but is Don Mott from Largo???

Why on Earth does what he says even matter (if that is true)???

Someone please clarify for me.

[Vote for St. Pete even if your anti-baseball]

Don Mott, Emerald Lane, Largo

He also has other opinions in the times under, "Don Mott, LARGO"

It's hard to understand why someone other than a resident of St. Pete is trying so hard to sway the future of our downtown.

I guess St. Pete should want to be more like the suburban sprawl paradise of Largo.

[Ray F]

Don Mott,

Say it ain't so...

You come here every single day and trash people's opinions because they don't agree with yours? You provide web links to essays written by economists from cities that don't want sports stadiums? You preach about preserving a waterfront that you live nowhere near?

Get lost. I don't have any say in what goes on in Largo, nor should I because...

I DON'T LIVE THERE.

[Vote for St. Pete even if your anti-baseball]

Hmmm what else does Don Mott of Largo have to say...

He hasn't owned a credit card in 25 years so I'm suspecting not the 20 something crowd of Largo

(Don Mott Article one)
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/letters/article503597.ece
Responsible people
read the fine print

I must disagree with this editorial. I may be biased since I have not owned a credit card for at least 25 years, but every once in a while you have to take responsibility for your own actions. This is one of those times. No one is forced to own or use a credit card. Everyone who does so should be aware of the consequences and read the fine print.

The fact that someone is using a credit card to pay for their basic necessities means they are already in trouble and are obviously making poor decisions.

When someone is naive or vulnerable and they are spending beyond their means because they have a plastic card in their wallet or purse, maybe they need a lesson in what is called the school of hard knocks. The government should not be in the business of regulating businesses to protect people from their own foolish endeavors.

Don Mott, Largo

(Arcticle 2)
http://www.skeptictank.org/gen3/gen01804.htm
I for one was totally outraged and sickened by what I read. Scientologists posing as National Mental Health Assistance offering a toll-free number to their offices is absolutely disgusting and should be investigated for fraud.

Then to hear Falwell and Robertson profess that we asked for these terrorist actions because of our right to choose the way we live is in my opinion anti-American. I would hope that those people who were not already ashamed and embarrassed by the words and actions of these two hypocritical zealots may now see them for what they truly are.

To insinuate that God allowed this tragedy to occur because "we probably deserved it" is not only an affront to those who lost friends and family members in this horrendous attack on America, it is also a very depraved way to garner attention to one's causes.

It is very apparent that Scientology and the religious right are scams that will use a national tragedy to promote their own interests. Imagine that.

-- Don Mott, Largo

(Article three)http://www.itsyourtimes.com/?q=node/639
Re: Homestead Exemption
Fri, 2006-03-03 10:10 — Letters to the ...

In mid December, 2005 I wrote the Pinellas County Property Appraisers office wondering why a rural county such as Citrus can process Homestead Exemption claims on the internet but Pinellas County still required that you show up in person. Being as I needed to file a homestead claim and being that it would require me to take a full day off from my job I was curious. Here is Mr Jim Smiths explanation in part. "In Pinellas County, we decided that a one-time in-person application is the best way to make sure that all the correct information is collected and that only those truly qualified receive the exemption''.

Now according to what I have read about Charlie Crists landlord, Mr Lawrence Compton maybe this system is not working. I have since found out by applying for the exemption there is no proof of residence required, ie. utility bills etc. All you need is a deed or similar conveyance and a drivers license. How much of a safeguard is that? I have not proven I reside at the residence, only that I own it. Mr Smith why could this not be handled on the internet since everything I provided in person to your office I could have sent via the internet and or by e-mail? Is it that you need something to keep your employees busy and justify your budget, or do you just want to see my smiling face? Obviously your system is not foolproof and I don't believe, given the lack of information required it could be abused any further than it already has been. It would be appreciated if you would streamline the current application process or preferably require more substantial proof as to residence versus ownership. Proof of residence will result in less fraud. Streamlining the process will mean folks like me do not have to take time off from work to apply. It is my opinion you should one or the other instead of just sitting back and doing nothing!

Don Mott, Largo

Don, I appreciate you vigor for current events but your looking at St. Pete through a telescope instead of actually living here.

[Disappointed]

Don, you've been exposed. Seems we have a Largo Carpet Bagger trying to take over St. Petersburg politics.

[Rick K]

Perfect. First he repeatedly acts indignant when people question the untrue "facts" of the anti's. All along, he pretends there is a huge body of reasonable scientific study which supports his fantasies about what will happen to St. Pete.

Now we learn he is a pretender.

[Ray F]

Don Mott,

It's been lovely engaging in conversation with you; but since you don't matter I will now refer to you as- Queen Elizabeth II of Largo, Defender of the Largoneans from the Shores of a Retention Pond West of US19 to the Banks of Taylor Lake.

Geez... and I actually appreciated your passionate opinions on this matter. Sorry buddy, it's back to dealing with speed traps on East Bay and all you can eat at Stacey's Buffet.

[Mikey]

just another sign of rays ownership getting it done. These are smart, fundamentally sound business men, and the new stadium is becoming more and more of a reality every day. "PA cement mixer"... thanks for saying what im sure several of us are thinking.

[Dissappointed]

Don in Largo might as well be on the other side of the state. Largo residents don't come to St. Pete's downtown and have no idea what the day to day experience is.

People thought Baywalk was crazy when they proposed it. That sparked numerous restaurants and even retail because they showed it could be viable. Bayfront tower folk protested the other new Condo projects on Beach Drive(apparently Bayfront tower should be the only condo tower in town) and the even protested changing a few of the one way streets to two way streets downtown even though all studies show it's good for business.

The moral of the story is some people are afraid of development in any form.

Look at pictures of St. Pete from the 20's and 30's. The streets looked like New York with so many people walking and using the downtown. We had 3 large department store for goodness sakes. I'm sure new proposal for a department store downtown will be protested too. After years of downtown white flight we're just starting to get back our downtown. We have a lot more to do and some want to stay in the bleak 70's. Help bring St. Pete back to it's former glory.

If your from LARGO you just don't understand because your willing to live yourself where the only thing you can walk to is your car door.

[since62]

Ed Armstrong is the same developers attorney who led the county commission into the Golden Lantern Trailer Park FIASCO!
GO RAYS!
can you say self immolation?

[Paul]

what are you guys in 9th grade or something? Don Mott this.... Don that... jeeeze. What a waste of my time reading your drivel rants about Don that has ZERO to do with the topic. I'm thinking your mom's should limit your computer time.

I was wondering if Ed Armstrong takes lessons from Kalt and Sternburg on facial expressions... 'hey, look i'm not a threat, see my attempt at an innocent face'.

[Rick K]

Thank you Paul for chastising posters for talking about something that has nothing to do with the topic, then doing it yourself.

Funny.

AND revealing.

[Paul]

Rick,

Thank you too for threatening someone physically over a few blog entries, namely Chris. Well there ya go. Sounds like you're a real genius. You can't read my 2nd paragraph, douchebag? There is my ON TOPIC opinion. So kiss off.

No new waterfront stadium. No Way. No Vote. No kidding. Ain't happening.

[Steve Lange]

QUESTION:

Rumor has it that the Rays have fired their PR person two weeks ago.

Anyone know for sure?

Aaron S.: Do you know?

BLOG:

[Paul]

Steve,

I wouldn't be surprised if they've fired their in house PR and hired a high caliber PR firm to handle the delicate situation they are in. Namely, fighting the local community for a new stadium, without alienating their fan base by doing so. It sounds like a challenging PR task. Not sure which PR firm would be selected but I bet they got them awhile back... although I don't really get a feeling their is any kind of focused PR effort going on at this point... perhaps after they wager whatever legal battle they have planned, they will roll out their PR campaign at that time. I have been involved in PR campaigns in the past, to 'change viewpoints' of various publics and from what I've encountered, with the right PR firm, you can get alot done. Although, the vocal grassroots folks in St Pete seem fairly determined and highly organized so it may be a little too late for the Ray's and a PR blitz to sway the voters of St Pete... if they even see this as an obstacle. I don't build stadiums, so I don't know what they have up their sleeve or what the 'master plan' is.

[Steve Lange]

Paul:

I think the No NEW Waterfront Stadium folks like me who have been working on this stadium issue have, to a very large extent, gotten our message to the voters already.

We have been at it non-stop for over four months now.

The red signs are out there. In mass.

I do believe everyone in St. Pete who votes, has heard of the stadium and Trop issues and all of the relevant details, both pro and con, that goes along with them.

And I think most voters have already chosen sides and made up their minds.

The stadium is going down in my opinion and going down in a very big way.

No much the Rays can do about it now.

[Paul]

Steve, I got my red yard sign the very day they came out. Hamilton came over to my house and gave me 4. (I have more than one property). I have driven around my block and last count, there were 25 of them, so yes, we have the word out.

I was just mentioning how a big project like building a new stadium, requires huge mindset change, and thus, a top notch PR firm to handle it. I agree, I think the project could possibly already be dead and we're just seeing politicians 'doing their job' at this point going through the motions. I am somewhat surprised we are not seeing any kind of reach out programs from the Rays... other than coming to the neighborhood meetings and doing their dog and pony. You think you'd at least get a letter in the mail or they'd have some commercials pitching the idea. Guess they figure they are so powerful with their 'build it or we'll move' tactic, that's all they need. Which as we know, will not work

[John]

Here are the two most GLARING FACTS about why this proposal will be either abandoned or shot down before August:

1. The Rays could not even sell out their 2nd home game. (As in inagural season 2nd game). After we spent 20 years chasing a team. That says it all right there.

2. The Albert Whitted vote (70% said NO)

The new Rays ownership may be saavy, but I honestly beleive they did little to no research about the demographics & history of our fair city before hastily throwing this plan together in hopes they'd get it on the ballot in a non-city, presidential election cycle.

I've talked to a lot of friends, a lot of my my neighbors, and the overwhelming consensus is this: They are indeed very upset with the Rays for already destroying a long-held tradition of Spring Training/Grapefruit leage @ Al Lang. That, along with this stadium proposal may or may not be keeping them away from games, I can not say.

Add to that the very influencial opposition by all the beach city mayors (who want the bed tax spent to lure tourists, not for a baseball team) who pretty much "own" the Tourist Development Commission, and ole' Ed Armstrong has an insurmountable job ahead of him with that gov't body.

Then add the opposition of the North County Neighborhood Association, CONA, several environmental groups, and now the D.E.P. with this latest bombshell about the city ignoring their requests for 8 years. If our some of our city council members "claim" they didn't even know about this tidbit, do you honestly beleive the developers that submitted RFP's months ago, knew about it?? Sure, they knew there might be some contamination, but did they know our city has been stonewalling the DEP all these years?

I, for one, am proud to be a citizen of St. Pete. And once this circus is over, people will return to their lives and realize, there's absolutely nothing wrong with our downtown the way it is. With or without the Rays.

My predictions? This ends before August, the city enacts the ordinance they already approved a year ago to protect Al Lang as parkland. A few years go by and the Rays either come before us again with a new plan for the Trop to be demolished and replaced with a ballpark or they move the team to another market after several more years in the attendence cellar.

See you at Taste of Pinellas!!

[Tired of POWW]

Steve, POWW or Part Of the Whining Wannabees - Ford(wiped on the floor for Mayor) - Virginia( kicked to the curb from the council for her overbearing nature) and You (Ousted by your North Shore neighborhood for supporting your own development against the neighborhood position and general "pugnacious leadership style") I guess if your the architect development is OK.

You all are trying to build back your reputations and don't realize that your personalities are the biggest part of your failure. For example how can Ford say the city and purchasing department are fixing a bid for Hines. A pure lie and disgraceful for the people she would want to lead.

Your not for the city, your self serving. Otherwise you wouldn't have started your group from day one of the announcement. You would have waited until a educated informed decision to support or not.

http://www.sptimes.com/News/070500/SouthPinellas/North_Shore_chief_ous.shtml

[Albert Whitted Hipocracy]

John,
Since The vote for Albert Whitted was to continue giving(leasing) public land to a small group of wealthy pilots as a private playground which loses money for the city and the vote made sure there wouldn't be any new "public waterfront Park" I think that the vote probably indicates a overwhelming support for the stadium. Aren't we leasing to a private entity and making sure Al Lang doesn't become a park.

Hypocritical, They are the same, Your anti-development period even if it is for the public good.

[John]

To 10:33, who wrote:

"I think that the (Alber Whitted) vote probably indicates a overwhelming support for the stadium."

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! We'll just see how that "logic" works out for ya!! ROFL!!!!

[Albert Whitted Hipocracy]

So tell me, do you fly out Albert Whitted, picnic on the runway, hang the new pilot lounge, or frolic through the hangers on the weekends. Probably not because the public can't even step on over 120 acres of it's waterfront because of "Save Albert Whitted"

Again Steve Lange self serving supporting that one check out the links.

http://www.avstak.com/avstaknews.html
http://www.stpete.org/pdf/june1minutes.pdf

[Albert Whitted Hipocracy]

John you have trouble reading sarcasm in posts.

[John]

Oh and RRRRick...I have a wager for you, my friend. I'll bet you that Taste of Pinellas draws more residents in its THREE DAY run than the Rays draw in the next FIFTEEN!! home games...do we have a bet?

Cultural events outdraw baseball???? Shirley you can't be serious.

[John]

AWH, It didn't sound like sarcasm to me. And no, I've never stepped foot on Albert Whitted with the exception of pit passes for the wonderful Grand Prix, which is still here in part because we saved Albert Whitted. But as a 3rd generation native of this city, I'm OK with that. You just would not understand. Just like Rick K doesn't understand, because he's not even FROM HERE. He's from Ohio.

[Ray F]

I think the bet is flawed...

Taste of Pinellas is a weekend event; once a year. So it would be safe to say that the three days is the only time in the year to attend the Taste of Pinellas.

We have 81 chances a year to make it to a Rays game so, you would have to count the whole season to be fair.

[John]

Ok then Ray, let's do the entire baseball season vs. public events held on our waterfront parks, including Taste of Pinellas, Blues Fest, Mainsail, SPIFFS, SAIL Expo, Shakespear in the Park, First Night, and July 4th....you'll still lose.

[Albert Whitted Hipocracy]

The Grad Prix could still be run. It would just be designed into the plan. Have you been to Monaco, the tracks is crazy in comparison to ours.

That interests me that you support the Grad Prix, many anti stadium people seem to also be anti Grad Prix. All that noise disturbingly your morning Latte as you look out your window over the bay. Plus all the roads being blocked what a hassle.

Sarcasm, Grad prix is a great example of how to bring exposure to the area, fill the hotels and support business. Yes it disturbs things a bit and it lost us money for quite a while but Every time the announcers had a chance the TV announcers would proclaim our race the most beautiful course in the nation. Likewise St. Petersburg benefits.

Third Generation St. Pete Resident here
Don Mott lives in Largo so the outsider influence here goes both ways.

[Ray F]

I'm not the Rays. I don't lose anything in your arbitrary bet. How about events that cost a minimum of $9 per person to enter. Because Rays games aren't free. It would only be fair to compare the Rays attendance figures to PRIVATELY held events that cost at least $9 per person, per day.

So, does that mean you lose? No it doesn't; it means we can go back in forth drawing new lines in the sand and this conversation will go nowhere.

[John]

You're comparing a resident of Largo to someone from Ohio? LOL oook. I happen to consider any resident of Pinellas County my neighbor, as they're free to utilize our parks just as often and freely as we do.

St. Pete does indeed benefit from the exposure of the Grand Prix, and I love it. However it's one weekend of disruption. Not 81 days a year of disruption. That's one out of every 5 days, of disruption.

And I get just as frustrated as you about the blue hairs in Bayfront Tower, as I am a loooong time fan of Jannus Landing, the old Club Detroit, etc, and those blue hairs tried to shut both venues down several times. That is not where I'm coming from.

[Ray F]

I would be curious to ask the residents in close proximity to Ray Jay how they feel during Bucs games as far as noise, traffic, etc goes.

Take away the fact that 90% of them sell their yards for parking at 10-20 dollars a copy. I'm sure if Bayfront tower residents each had 2 parking spots, they'd be selling those off to season ticket holders. I would.

[Albert Whitted Hipocracy]

When you visit Rome don't you visit the coliseum and the Pantheon.

It's takes both cultural and sports venues to be recognized as a vibrant city and downtown.

This isn't a relevant discussion because neither events eliminate the other. Don't even say it would hurt the Mahathey. It's unfortunately been dying on the vine for years even with a new building due to lack of interest in classical music and their hands being tied on other programing. At least with the new stadium people would remember its their.

[John]

Ray, you made my point clearer with your last post. Most of the events in our parks are free, to anyone, resident or not, to come enjoy. To be blunt, I am extemely pissed that the Rays took away Spring Training. I grew up in Al Lang watching spring training and grapefruit leage games. Nickel beer nights, etc. It was affordable for just about anyone to come enjoy, much like the Threshers are currently doing in Clearwater. I have a real problem with the fact they've taken that away from my kids to experience, and their kids, instead we're forced into being threatened by a powerful private enterprise to "do it our way, or the highway" with public park land at stake that we'll lose forever. I don't want to have to pay $10.00 to park downtown on a Tuesday night if I want to take the family to Baywalk for dinner & a movie, just because there happens to be a baseball game occuring at the same time. The Trop is a perfect location, it doesn't disrupt the action downtown but it's still close enough (as Chris pointed out) to be within walking distance of that downtown to hit the Independent or somewhere else after the game for the FEW fans that actually do that. Capiche'???

[Albert Whitted Hipocracy]

I work downtown and the Grad Prix is really almost two straight week of disturbance by the time it's done. I agree they protest street direction changes Janus Sound levels and probably sidewalk cafe's because they make it hard to maneuver walkers.

Doesn't Ray F live in St. Pete now and is from Ohio (thats 3/4 of the city) versus someone who choses to reside in Suburban Sprawl Largo. You know no one in Largo comes to downtown St. Pete very often and they sure aren't effected by this decision like we are. If it doesn't go through they will just lose baseball from Pinellas as well.

[Albert Whitted Hipocracy]

I would love to have spring training as well. I wonder if they had the new smaller stadium couldn't they bring the games back to the same location. At least you wouldn't have the sun in your eyes like the spring games now. Maybe the city should negotiate that.

If I have to choose between spring training games or no baseball at all I think I'll take Baseball on this one.

[John]

No we won't lose baseball. We might lose the Rays, but I am confident if that happened, the citizens would push the city to solicit another Spring Training team. Remember, we still have a perfectly functional WATERFRONT baseball park, albeit needing a little updating, that is in scale with its surroundings (unlike the giant sailboat) that any team in MLB would be proud to host their spring training & minor league team. That's what many people supporting this have either blocked out or refuse to realize. Another point people "for" this keep saying is "national exposure"....what exactly does "national exposure" do for a city that is effectively built-out? What, do you want even MORE people wanting to move here after they see a Rays game on TV from their home on Long Island? Where are we going to put this new flock of wanabe residents? Oh, that's right, we'll just turn the beaches into a 26-mile long "Sand Key" to house them all. Think of the traffic then!! Oh and then we'll need to enact a local income tax because we've lost most of our tourists who currently subsidize our police, fire & teachers with their discretionary spending in our county. Sounds like paradise to me.

[Ray F]

I was born in Orlando and my mother moved us here when I was 5. I grew up here. I went to Perkins elementary, meadowlawn middle, and graduated from St Pete High.

I don't know who said I wasn't from here, but get your facts straight.

[Ray F]

Oh John,

You're right; why would we want anymore residents to move to our sleepy little town? Spend money in our sleepy little stores? Pay taxes on our sleepy little property. I don't know about you John, but the most signs I see driving around the city aren't POWW signs, they are "FOR SALE" signs.

Plus, you forget that these are sister projects. We'll have 86 acres of land to put as many homes, businesses, parks, etc. to our little hearts content.

[Chris Jenkins]

"Plus, you forget that these are sister projects. We'll have 86 acres of land to put as many homes, businesses, parks, etc. to our little hearts content."

Ray, in the Hines proposal, and in follow up conversations with them, they have indicated their plans are to build 200K-600K condos on that property, approx. 1100 units.

Considering the real estate market, do you think that's a tenable plan, likely to actually fill?

And if they don't fill, will the developer be paying the property taxes the city would have been receiving if they were filled?

You know, kind of like a guarantee?

[Albert Whitted Hipocracy]

Sorry it could take 10 or 15 years before you get another team to use Al Lang while we paying for the upkeep and MAJORRRR renovations. Have you seen the Threshers or Yankees complexes. We'll have to spend 20 mill to get that park back up to standards and you know people won't support that either.

[John]

Yes, Ray, let's turn this into an elite city, where 3rd generation residents like myself will no longer be able to afford to live here because this HUGE WAVE of Rays fans moving here from all over because they saw the giant sailboat on their TV, will drive up prices even higher, along with property & insurance rates as they compete for those houses for sale that were forclosed on because people already can no longer afford to live here. We'll change our name to San Fransisco-East. Where you can't rent an 800sq ft studio apt for less then $1800/month. God, I can't WAIT to move to Lakeland.

[John]

Hmmm 20 million to restore Al Lang and lure back a 90+ year tradition in St. Pete, or HALF A BILLION to enrich the Rays....HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[Chris Jenkins]

"We'll change our name to San Fransisco-East."

John, you've nailed something here. Two words: Mission District.

People don't learn from the lessons which have played out over and over again. Fandom, unfortunately, can breed a certain pie in the sky optimism that can have disastrous results.

[Hipocracy]

John, the anti's want to have Al lang as a park anyways so you don't have to worry about spending the next 15 years attracting another team. After that much time of Al Lang sitting empty you'll have no problem tearing it down.

So with either option not costing you one cent extra than today you would rather kick a professional team out that represents St. Pete year round and try to attract some other city's team here for a couple months of cheap tickets. I can't wait for the hometown spirit for the Oakland A's in St. Pete. That does little for quality of St. Pete life. The cool thing about spring training in Al Lang was that IT WAS OUR TEAM.

Has anyone complained about traffic now since spring training games already accommodate up to 8000. What about the traffic for the numbers noted earlier for taste of Pinellas.

[Ray F]

John,

Sorry, I was out. I don't think it's fair to think that in 2012 when the Rays leave the Trop (as stated in the plan) you can know what the real estate market will be like. All I know, is land is valuable and 86 acres of land within spitting distance to 275 will go pretty fast.

If you want to live in Lakeland, that's fine with me. As long as your happy.