POWW says the stadium could look like this

From St. Pete Protect our Wallets and Waterfront, the group opposing the Rays' stadium plan:

"Who controls the naming rights to the stadium and just how much of the stadium itself could be used as a billboard are still very much up in the air. Remember, they need money, money, money to pay for this thing!

"They could even use the sail as a huge movie screen and play ads on it that could be seen from miles away. Its just one more reason why this is a BAD IDEA.

"Why take something healthy and beautiful and destroy it when there are perfectly good alternatives??"

Comments

[get-smart]

I'm hungry now. What's $4.99 special?

[disgusting]

This makes me want to puke just looking at it. True, it MAY not be this bad, but it could be close. What if it's Taco Bell Field?

Just keep the Trop for now and lets talk about a new stadium in a couple of years.

NOW IS NOT THE TIME AND THIS IS NOT THE PLACE.

[Ken]

This is absolutely ridiculous. Aaron, why are you posting patently false and misleading info from POWW? Just because they oppose the stadium doesn't mean everything they say or post to their site is newsworthy. If my three-year-old draws a picture with crayons, will you post that too? City planners can control signage on all buildings downtown if they choose to do so. (see the SunTrust sign on our skyline). If signage on the ballpark is a concern, just pass an ordinance or, better yet, put a prohibition in the lease with the Rays. It's not a valid reason to oppose the ballpark. POWW's graphic is pure fiction and scare tactics.

[Ray F]

Well, using that same thought process, shouldn't Tropicana blast a projector from the pitcher's mound toward the roof and advertise fresh Florida Orange juice to people flying above???

This is a real stretch to bring up a stupid argument. Using that "artist's renditioning", we can assume that only people in cayaks fishing for homeruns would see the advertisement.

The facts are there. We are paying the same amount for the new field as we would pay anyway on the Trop. Proponents haven't even looked at the financing plan. Otherwise, there would be no objections. If you want baseball to stay in St. Pete, vote yes. I wouldn't support the team in Tampa. They didn't deserve them in the first place and I won't spend a dime in Tampa.

[Paul]

I think the image brings up a valid point. Why is there only one drawing from the Rays on what the stadium will look like?

Put up several scenarios of what a fully operational, sold out advertising space, stadium will and could look like.

The Rays are completely downplaying just how big and monsterous this behemoth stadium could/would be.

You got some nice pretty pics to show? Put up the links to them... show us how this massive structure co-exists and actually adds something to our beautiful waterfront.

You don't need Aaron's approval. You can put just about any links you want here in the blog.

[Barbie]

Ken, how is this "patently false"? Is it outside the realm of possibility? I think not!

By the way, I did look at the Rays financing plan and it does not add up. Aside from the totally fabricated parking revenues, they use the $70 million from the sale of the Trop site twice. Once to pay the Trop debt AND a second time to fund the new stadium.

Talk about patently false.

[Aaron Sharockman]

Ken,
People are smart enough to read into this what they want.

If people think the Rays are going to take what they refer to as the defining architecture of St. Petersburg and slather it up with advertisements, I don't think they were going to support the project anyway.

But it is obvious people have concerns over the naming rights of the new stadium, and who may share in those revenues.

This blog is about dialogue. I think this image provokes a discussion of the naming rights. Or it may, from your perspective, provoke a discussion about POWW's "scare tactics."

So, talk away.

[Rick K]

Barbie:

You are mistaken. The $70 Million is only used once.

[Aaron Sharockman]

Barbie,

On the financing plan, the Rays are not counting the $70 million from the sale of the Trop site twice. Here's how it works.

* The $175-million from the extension of the county and city payments that the Rays are asking for starts in 2017.

* The $70-million from the developer is the equilavent of the current debt service on Tropicana Field that will be reshifted to the new stadium.

Now, it's perfectly reasonable to say that the $70-million from the developer -- since it would pay for the Trop debt -- not be included in the "financing plan." And that instead, the $70-million also come from the city and county tax payments.

So to recap, here's how the Rays get to $450-million

$175-million by extension of city and county payments starting in 2017.

$150-million from the team

$70-million from either 1) the developer's purchase price on the trop or 2) the existing debt payments on the trop that will be transfered to the new stadium, and

$55-million in guaranteed parking revenues.

I hope that helps.

[Barbie]

And which "once" is that?

[Barbie]

And will they pay rent in addition to the $150 million?

[Barbie]

And what happens if the "guaranteed" parking revenues don't pan out?

[Ray F]

Again,

Look at the Trop. I don't see tropicana plastered all over it. The advertisements are very tasteful and I have 100% confidence in Rays ownership to continue their use of discretion on that front. You guys are getting way ahead of yourselves.

St. Pete will lose baseball forever. This proves to the Rays that they have no community support. Thanks POWW for skewing the results. Might as well get your VOTE FOR McCAIN signs printed too so you can sway that vote.

While your at it, start reserving the charter buses to haul old people from their retirement communities to the polls and tell them how to vote while promising them a catered Denny's breakfast if they vote no.

3 steps backward unless we vote yes. Don't vote 'no' based on today's economy. That isn't smart investing. Vote yes on the future gains that WILL COME!!!

[Make A Deal]

Let's negotiate.
What the city has:
1. waterfront stadium(Rays first choice)
2. existing urban development around proposed stadium.
3. existing parking at the Trop stadium

What the Rays have:
1. a MLB Rays team
2. tens of millions already invested
3. 6 wealthy men behind the curtain

The city of St. Pete has what they want most. It would cost the Rays less and yield a higher return to stay here.
The Rays need any capital gained to invest in player contracts, training facilities, and the spring training stadium.

St. Pete owns a Dome that is currently being leased. With the lease agreement coming to an end, and tenants that want out, we need to negotiate a deal to keep the MLB team in town.

If St. Pete can not appease the Rays and they leave to seek their fortune elsewhere, we will have a Dome and no tenant.

We will have 85 acres of empty, non taxed land, that we will own free and clear, but now have to pay for the clean up ourselves, or solicit a major developer that want the project.

And all with the clout of....??

Our artist? Microsoft? Help me out, who else in St. Pete is as well known as the MLB baseball team the Rays?
Who else in St. Pete is getting the press and airtime of the Rays.
When the Rays perform bad, St. Pete still was talked about all over the US, Japan, and Canada- because we hosted the worst performing team in baseball.

[Peggy]

Since when is a renter(Rays) allowed to take money from the owner(City/County) and use it toward any kind of development? Thats taxpayers money!!! In addition to the Bed Tax money! Enough with the Rays Stadium issue, nothing adds up. There isn't enough parking to put it downtown. Heck there isn't even enough handicap spots at the Trop, with their huge parking lots. And traffic was a mess in the Sox and Yankees series. Just think what a mess it would be downtown. And who the heck wants to sit outside in the heat and humidity? All this because Stu doesn't like the Trop, isn't that a shame or sham? The whole idea is just plain stupity.
What next Stu? Threaten us with moving the team? Thats whats next isn't it?

[Barbie]

What a crock! If the Rays want to leave because we won't buy them a new stadium like little spoiled brats stomping off to their room-- Let them go!

If they truly care about St. Pete then its a non-issue.

We don't to redefine St. Pete. St. Pete is and will continue to be a great little city with a first class waterfront. People don't want to see the latter denigrated, which is why there are groups like POWW and thousands and thousands of red signs ALL OVER TOWN.

POWW hasn't scared me or mislead me, they just happen to stand for something I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH.

And if you have such a problem with St. Pete and think only this stadium will salvage the area, why don't you take a hike right along with the Rays after we the people VOTE THIS NONSENSE DOWN!

[Earl]

poww (they don't deserve caps) is so off the mark it's not even funny. They admit to using lies to state their weak case. The St. Pete Times should not succumb to their lunacy and give them any credit. They are using lies, propaganda and scare tactics and ignoring the true facts. Shame on them for their lies. poww will be trounced by the majority who say LET'S BUILD THIS BALL PARK! Go Rays!

[Rick K]

Barbie, calm down.

First of all, you exagerate the number of Red signs. Well, you overstate the number of people who have put out red signs.

Second, the issue before us is not about the Rays "caring" about St. Pete. It is about what future the citizens want for our city in 2012, 2022, and 2032. Your position is clear. You like the status quo.

Good for you. Others may prefer a different future for the City. Which is why we vote.

You are already convinced, so POWW's distortions and distractions have no impact on you. I doubt they will actually influence anyone, but I am trying to get everyone in this discussion to be honest and not intentionally distort.

There is no need to cheat.

If the anti's are convinced the merits of their case are superior, they don't need to try to cheat.

[Barbie]

Earl, seems like the majority have RED signs not your little white and blue ones.

And "Lets build the ballpark"?

Fine, build it somewhere other than the waterfront with money that doesn't come from taxpayers or the sale of public assets.

How about that?

[Make A Deal]

Is it non-sense to go to the table and say alright your asking us for $245mil.
That number doesn't work, but it's a start.
Knowing that we don't want to sell our waterfront, it is wise to keep ownership. So we ask them to pay $100mil more and no ads on the sail!

Barbie, is it non-sense that the Trop will have been attended to eventually when it sits empty on 85 acres of polluted ground.
What is the solution to that very real scenario?

[Barbie]

Rick, wrong wrong wrong.

I see red signs everywhere. Even huge red ones in some places.

Sure, there are some white and blue ones, but they are outnumbered easily 10-1.

And where's the "cheating" these people are doing that you keep referring to? Showing what the stadium COULD look like?

That's arbitrary, not cheating.

[Taxpayer]

I've got the perfect solution. If your in favor of the stadium, you pay for it, special tax!!! You get to go to the games. If you don't want the stadium, you don't pay, no tax! You can't go to the games. I think thats fair. This way, everybody gets what they want. Simple, easy, solution.

[Barbie]

"Barbie, is it non-sense that the Trop will have been attended to eventually when it sits empty on 85 acres of polluted ground.
What is the solution to that very real scenario?"

Uh...aren't you suggesting redeveloping that area?

[Make A Deal]

Wow -
Is that formula for ever public access venue.
If you want to go to the Fine Arts Museum you get taxed at the door!

How about if you want the library so bad, you pay for the electric bill!

Some venues in our city are here to unite us. A team that people can believe in for a win is unifying. Everyone there is wearing Rays hats. Children are now growing up under Rocco Baldeli and Percival. There are tax funded little leagues all over the city and county. Americans love sports. St. Pete loves being outdoors. We have more parks and bike trails, despite the heat and bugs,(with no concession stands or air conditioned corridors) than anyone else in Fl.

[Make A Deal]

Redeveloping while prices for land and labor are low makes a more it a more attractive deal for the developer.

It's not like the 85 acres of the Trop are going to increase in value much because of the increased liability for the developer

[get-smart]

I went to LJS for lunch. The sign works. The special is Monster Fish,FF, Hush Pup no drink $4.99 w/ tax $5.34. So POWW your ad worked.

[Rick K]

Taxpayer, your solution is not simple. Nor is it the way we allocate benefits from shared public investments. Every single resident and every single business and every single visitor to St. Pete enjoy the benefits from public and private investment in infrastructure in the City.

There is currently no "good" or service supported by infrastructure investments for which the citizens who use the good pay the full price.

If there were, I would support your plan.

[Thomas]

In my opinion, these items should be addressed completely prior to including this proposal on any ballot:

======================================
1- FINANCING PLAN

- Correct the public/private contributions to accurately reflect that the Rays commit $150M to the project and the other $300M comes from public, either via taxes or the proceeds of selling public property.

- Clarify if the Rays $150M is a contribution to construction or just an upfront lump sum rent payment.

- Clarify the Parking Revenue contribution.

- Validate the claims of public benefit. Start with the Sales Tax estimate of $104M over the next 35 years.

That would require $3M per year in sales taxes to meet that estimate.

Are they basing their estimate off of the full sales tax rate - including the state portion - or are they estimating based on only the city sales tax amount?

Assuming they erroneously estimated off the full sales tax rate and not just the city sales tax, it would still require over $42M in sales per year.

Of that $42M in sales activity, how much is actually new money as opposed to displaced sales taxes that would have been collect from other local retail outlets anyway (substitution effect).

- Will the Rays or the developers guarantee these estimates or are they just fabricated for PR purposes.

=======================================

2- LEASE TERM SHEET

- What will the rent amount be? (Assuming the Rays "contribution" is not just the sum of their rent)

- How will naming rights and advertising revenues be distributed?

- Will suite sales and premium seating revenues be shared with the city?

- Are revenues from non-baseball events still collected by the team?

=======================================

3- OMISSIONS

- The Al Lang site is also a publicly owned parcel. It is a premium waterfront location. Why is it just being given away for free?

- If the Al Lang site is redeveloped for a Rays stadium, will the Rays pay property taxes - or will it be a "city/county owned facility" to avoid them?

- What are the public costs associated with servicing a redevelopment of the Trop (new obligations for Police, Fire, Schools, et al.)?

=======================================

These are the types of hard questions that the Rays should be required to answer if they are to get this "plan" onto the ballot.

They certainly are not addressed in that PowerPoint presentation the team tried to play off as the "finance details"

[Greg]

This isn't a public venue, this is a private company. The Rays are privately owned, we the Public don't own it.
And I agree whole heartedly with Taxpayer, if you want it, put your money where your mouth is!!! YOU PAY FOR IT!!!!

[Rick K]

Barbie, I am not wrong. There are not thousands and thousands of people in the city who have put out Red Signs. And they aren't visible or prominent in all parts of the City...

I was out by Tyrone over the weekend, winding thru several residential streets, trying to help a friend find her lost dog. Of the 500 or so houses I drove past, one had a red sign. About ten had blue signs.

Last Thursday, I spent the entire day downtown. I saw 74 blue signs and about three red ones.

I understand that there are pockets in this city where there are loads of red signs.

But your characterization is incorrect and greatly exagerated.

[Barbie]

Blah blah blah.

Big difference between a public library and a privately owned sports team that only a fraction of the population cares about in the least.

[Rick K]

Greg & Taxpayer:

If we add up the amount of money that will be spent over the next 30 years on the following:

1. Redevelopment of the Trop
2. Redevelopment of the Al Lang site
3. Purchasing goods and services at the two redeveloped sites

We will find that the largest portion, by far, comes from private voluntary contributions from businesses and consumers.

If y'all are advocating that all taxpayer-supported entities and organizations must henceforth capture 100 % of their operating expenses and recapture 100 % of public investment that benefits the entity, that is one thing. If you are advocating that only the Rays fall under your new radical financing plan, that is another.

[Barbie]

Rick, you are soooo wrong. Besides, show me a scientific poll that says anything other than OVERWHELMING opposition to this IDIOTIC plan.

[Rick K]

Barbie, what is the "big" difference?

[Kyle]

I got a good idea for sponsors- Valtrex, Viagra, or Trojan Condoms. Because all of them have to do with screwing.

[Rick K]

Barbie, I do not have a scientific poll. Nor do you.

And it is immaterial, because we haven't voted yet. I can think of no election like this in which a "poll" taken six months early had great value.

I just told you of my field observations, which were not scientific in the sense that I did not attempt to travel on streets that contained fair and accurate proportional representation of the city's likely voters.

But I am not sure that it is possible to administer such a survey that identifies who will vote in November and view just those yards.

General experience tell us that the Naysayers are almost always way in front of the proponents at this stage of questions like this.

But you are incorrect in asserting that thousands and thousands of voters have put red signs out AND in asserting that there are red signs everhwhere in the City.

[Greg]

Yes, Rick K....lets have it just for the Rays!! You want it, you pay for it! What is so hard to understand about that? Just like Taxpayer said! READ HIS LIPS! He didn't studder!

[Angie]

Give me a sign, Ill put one up! GO POWW GO!!!

[Lamont]

Give it up Rick K....you make no sense, just like the Rays!

[Barbie]

There are over 10000 red signs all over town (I live next door to someone who passes them out).

Lets see, what's the big difference between public services and private enterprise...hmmm...You know, if I have to explain that one to you, not sure this argument is worth having.

[Don Mott]

"The facts are there. We are paying the same amount for the new field as we would pay anyway on the Trop. Proponents haven't even looked at the financing plan". By Ray F @ 1:06, This has to be one of the most uneducated and ridiculous statements I have seen yet, and there have been some doozies! One thing you did get right was as a proponent I guess you haven't looked at the financing plan.

[Paul]

True, Very true that the current Trop isn't plastered with signs visible from the outside. That's because it is an indoor stadium and guess what? There are signs everywhere inside.

The proposed stadium is an outdoor field, thus all the signs 'inside' it will be visible from the outside.

I can't believe some of this needs 'splainin but I guess it does.

The Pinellas County Commission meeting is on now... channel 622 on brighthouse and they are also streaming it off the pinellas county website. Its on knology and rabbit ears, but i don't know which channels.

Lets see how the Rays boyz fare in the presence of the County govt.

[Gene & Patty]

I like the Trop, I want to sit inside in comfort. I will not go to an outdoor stadium, with smokers, heat, humidity, and bugs, mark my words! I don't go to the Bucs games, nor to Brighthouse Field. Thats my reason for not wanting a new stadium!.

[Ray F]

Don Mott- I apologize for using the wrong word.

Or maybe I didn't... you read twice didn't you?

Don't call me uneducated. You don't know me, sir. Typical republican. Attack people not issues.

[Jim]

Rick K, it scary to see the maturity level of people who are opposed so much that no matter what you say or do, you're always wrong. It's like the precocious 5 year-old that doesn't get her way, sticks her fingers in her ears and yells, "NUH UH!" while she blows a raspberry and stomps her feet.

This entire blog is getting out of hand and very pretentious. The people who are opposed are (for the most part) stubborn in their beliefs and when people bring them concrete facts, they argue with that. In fact, most of those people would argue with you that the sky is, in fact, purple and how dare someone assume otherwise.

The people who support the project (for the most part) don't hang out on these blogs, and those who do are eaten alive by the piranhas carrying red signs for nothing. I wish the people who want to fight for the stadium here the best of luck, because you'd have better luck talking to a brick wall; it would have more intelligence and flexibility than some people on these postings.

So, if you want to continue a losing blog battle, Rick K, I sincerely wish you Godspeed. The real vote comes in November, and I can assure you that it won't be as lopsided as it appears to be on these blogs. The vast majority of supporters don't, and won't, yell over the loud din of the opposition's barking. I'll see everyone in the outfield on Central Ave in 2012!

[Barbie]

You seem smart to me Ray, just wrong on this issue.

[Barbie]

Other way around Jimbo.

And in 2012 hopefully St Pete will be as cool as it is today and not the horror story that this monstrous stadium would make it.

[Leroy Jenkins]

I think its funny how everyone says that there are so many red signs around town and that they aren't seeing many blue and white ones. Here is what is happening in my neighborhood. Since last thursday when the rays released their plans for funding the new stadium 7 people have taken down their Red signs. I think this morning when i was leaving for work i saw 6 still up. But my question is why when i put my Blue and White sign up is it gone within 24 hours? The same thing is happening to a couple of my neighbors. If this keeps happening its going to get ugly. So to all the poww backers, Don't Touch My Sign!
Rick K it is useless arguing with these nimrods! They have no clue! I am tired of the people that don't believe the revenue that is going to come from this project. They should drive over to Tampa and ask all the people about the how much downtown tampa has changed since the St Pete Times Forum was built. Its amazing what downtown Stadiums and arenas do for city's.

[Ray F]

Respectfully, I'm not wrong; I just have a different viewpoint than you Barbie.

I'm sorry I disagree, but that's what makes this country so great is our right to do so.

[Ray F]

Leroy Jenkins... awesome name by the way!

My sign is still up. I have 2 that I got from the Sat. night Rays/Angels game. In my immediate neighborhood (4 blocks up-down-left-and right of me) We outnumber the reds 7-2 (i only counted mine once). There's a buzz growing. Don't forget- POWW has been handing out their signs for 5 months. Build the Ballpark signs have only been up for a few weeks.

[Thomas]

"I am tired of the people that don't believe the revenue that is going to come from this project."

If everyone is so certain it will deliver as adverstised, let's have the Rays go ahead and guarantee it. If it comes up short, the Rays pay the difference.

This was included in my list of questions about the plan. I realize it's much easier to name call than to tackle difficult questions, so please continue with "nimrod" or whatever other 4th grade insult you can muster.

[Barbie]

5 months Ray? So POWW was handing out signs back in December?

Ha!

Don't forget, the Rays can hand signs out at games as thousands of people pass by.

POWW is a small grass roots group that often delivers signs home by home, person by person.

Its David vs. Goliath and David is kickin' you know what.

p.s. You are wrong. You are entitled to be wrong however.

[Leroy Jenkins]

I am so sorry Thomass. Do you think that the well educated people that run the Ray's organization didn't do studies? You don't think they went to other city where they have built a stadium in the last 5 years and ask owners of businesses about the money they have made since the stadiums have opened?

[Thomas]

I really do believe that this is why the city and county must step in and ask the hard questions. Our leaders should require the Rays to fill in all the details.

If they let the discovery process slide the Rays will put together an expensive ad campaign to promote this.

Some of the more simple minded and easily led will be swayed by the PR machine and the Rays will have an excellent chance of jamming the citizens with this plan.

Now is the time for leadership and accountability. Put away the pretty slideshows and do some real work.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Hey barbie! December 20th was 5 months ago! You are clueless! 5 months or 6 months you just made it sound like you have been passing them out for a year.

[Jim]

Not that I should answer, because your "retorts" alone speak for themselves, but yes, "December". poww (like Earl said above, they don't deserve all caps) has been giving out propaganda since January (not "December"..."ha!"), without knowing all the facts. From bumper stickers to flyers to signs, they have been doing this since January. Now that's a fact you can't dispute, because they'll say "Yes, since then," if you ask them.

And Fans For Waterfront Stadium is a grass-roots effort as well, person to person, and I'm seeing even more "Let Us Vote" signs in yards than even the "Let's Build The Ballpark", but I'm sure you'll say you've seen 10,000,000 Red signs more, so you're right, and I'm completely and utterly wrong, Barbie. I wish I could be as perfect as you.

(You know, poww is only hurting its own cause by allowing childish people like Barbie and the person who drew the above "concept" (and the "yellow roof" from a few months ago, I'm sure) speak for them. If they had more people willing to intelligently makes their points, they'd get better dialogue to address their concerns)

[Leroy Jenkins]

I just don't understand why David is stealing my sign Barbie! Trust me i saw the red sign guy put a sign in the ground one block away from my house then drive by my house and take my sign. If it happens again you poww people will be sorry. Trust me! You are stealing something off of my property! STEALING!

[Barbie]

"I am tired of the people that don't believe the revenue that is going to come from this project."

You mean the same people that are still waiting for the promises made back before the Trop was built to come true?

Nice try (hint, hint, its called pie in the sky)

[Barbie]

"I am tired of the people that don't believe the revenue that is going to come from this project."

You mean the same people that are still waiting for the promises made back before the Trop was built to come true?

Nice try (hint, hint, its called pie in the sky)

[Ray F]

Barbie:

An opinion can't be wrong. So I am not wrong. It is my opinion that we should build the park. It isn't wrong. Are we in 3rd grade? It would be like me telling you that you are wrong and that you don't really like to watch your favorite T.V. show.

...and as soon as the Rays announced their plans for the park, POWW started campaigning against it (as is their right).

[Barbie]

OKAY jimbo WHATEVER YOU SAY!

[Barbie]

So if I wanted to argue the merits of raping your sister, you'd wouldn't think I was WRONG?

[Chester]

If the stadium and redevelopment of the Trop fails to pass, St. Pete will never recover. The Rays ownership is a young, motivated, educated group from great US cities trying to breathe life into an otherwise forgettable metro area and hopefully the citizens of St. Pete will not fall for the scare tactics of the POWW. The owners do not want a stadium in Toy Town or the Fairgrounds in Tampa and neither should you. That train of thought is what created this sprawling mess known as Tampa Bay. If this doesn't pass then good luck finding a developer to take on the Trop. That site will sit vacant until the fourth Wal-Mart in a city of 250,000 is erected as that is all the median income of its residents can support.

Nice drawing by the way. Here's a better idea, photoshop a Long John Silver's shirt on all of the homeless guys lingering around my business right now. That will reach more people around here and be better for business right? Ridiculous propaganda.

[Barbie]

Groan. Give me a break! Chester, that's the same old tired line we've been hearing over and over and over.

Just dumb.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Are you telling me that the city of St Pete hasn't become a Bigger, Nicer, and more well known city since the Trop was built? You people are crazy! We have had a Final Four here. We have had hockey. We now have baseball. Trust me people now know where st pete is on the map because of those great events! People want to come here for more great events! All Star Games and World Series and college bowl games at a brand new Waterfront stadium! There is a reason the st pete chamber of commerce wants this stadium! Because they know how great its going to be for our wonderful city! Go look at the city before the trop was built, then go down and drive around the beautiful city that we now live in and look at all the nice place to eat and drink and shop! Look at all the nice condo's. The reason they are there is because of all the great events that have happened in the trop since it was built! Those are the Revenues people! Its not hard to see the change!

[Ray F]

We're talking about the fundamental fact that an opinion felt by somebody cannot be wrong.

So... if it was your opinion that my sister should be raped, than so be it.

[Ray F]

real mature comeback too Barbie. Are you insane? Is that how mommy and daddy taught you to engage in civil discussion? Were you not hugged enough as a child? Did you get picked on in school? What went wrong with you that would cause you to liken a discussion about building a stadium to raping somebody???

[Barbie]

The beautiful pristine waterfront is way more attractive than a sports event.

And speaking of the Trop. Once its gone, where will all the events that take place there now OTHER THAN BASEBALL going to move?

(home shows, boat shows, conferences, etc, etc)

And don't say the new stadium because these need to be indoors.

[Ray F]

Pristine sea wall... Just as God intended. Was that on the eighth or ninth day???

GOD- "oh yeah, and let there be sea walls."

[jtb]

this is up there with the time that POWW put up what looked like a finger-painted bright yellow sail on the stadium. ridiculous fear-mongering and not worth posting on this blog. POWW: please try to keep this debate honest.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Wow now you are worried about these events? I have no clue and dont care! What conferences are you talking about? You brought up two events off the top of your head that bring in little to no money to the city and i brought up three events that will bring billions and billions of dollars to the city. Just ask San Fran! Call there chamber of commerce and ask them how much money there ballpark by the water has brought them since it opened. Do some research Barbie you would be shocked!

[Barbie]

Well all the people that live down there in boats may disagree with you on that one Ray.

[Barbie]

Leroy, here's some research for you:

Sports Stadium Madness: Why It Started, How to Stop It (summmary)
Joseph L. Bast
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 02/01/1998
(HTML format) -- Future historians will look back on the 1980s and 1990s with amazement. Communities that were hard-pressed to keep their schools open ...

Great Stadium Swindle Turns Public Money into Private Profit

Economic Analysis of the Baseball Agreement between the District of Columbia and the Expos , Scott Wallsten, October 27, 2004, AEI-Brookings Joint Center

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/ This web site is based on the book entitled "Field of Schemes" How the Great Stadium Swindle Turns Public Money into Private Profit, Revised and Expanded Edition by Neil deMause and Joanna Cagan.

“Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (And Stick You with the Bill)” by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist David Cay Johnston.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0740,demause,77974,2.html

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0546,demause,70002,5.html

Stadium Subsidies Hitting Taxpayers Harder: Shelling out several hundred million taxpayer dollars for a shiny new sports stadium is common practice for cities today, but a recent study from the ...

Stadiums and Subsidies: Home Run for Wealthy Team Owners, Strike-out for Taxpayers
Andrew Moylan
NTUF Policy Paper #163
Published by National Taxpayers Union Foundation on 10/30/2007
Over the next several years, residents of New York City will be compelled to cough up a minimum of more than $200 million1 in subsidies to help build ...

Temporary Stadium Keys Chicago's Olympic Bid
Dennis Byrne
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 06/01/2007
A plan for construction of a temporary stadium was central to Chicago's winning bid to host the 2016 Olympics.

Seattle to Vote on Stadium Subsidy
Jason Mercier
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 11/01/2006
Taxpayers across the nation are voicing concern over tax subsidies for private sports teams. One of those debates is occurring in Seattle, Washington, ...

Florida Turns Down Subsidy for Marlins Stadium
John W. Skorburg
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 07/01/2006
Although Florida lawmakers declined to provide financial assistance to the Florida Marlins Major League Baseball franchise, a proposed move of the team ...

Minn. Twins Win Stadium Subsidy Deal
Mark Giga
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 07/01/2006
Years of concerted effort by the Minnesota Twins Major League Baseball team paid off on May 26, when Gov. Tim Pawlenty (R) signed a stadium subsidy bill ...

Kelo Could Ban Takings for Stadiums
Daniel McGraw
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 07/01/2005
Technically, the eminent domain case before the U.S. Supreme Court, Kelo v. New London, has nothing to do with sports. But sports teams have long ...

An End to Sports Welfare?
Daniel McGraw
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 07/01/2005
When Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones asked Arlington, Texas voters to pay for a new stadium last November, he did not call the classic plays from the ...

County Claims Bengals Cheated Taxpayers
Daniel McGraw
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 07/01/2005
The Cincinnati Bengals case, Hamilton County v. Cincinnati Bengals Inc., is simpler than Kelo. Hamilton County commissioners claim the team ...

Jones' Subsidy Could Reach $1.2 BillionJones' Subsidy Could Reach $1.2 Billion
Daniel McGraw
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 07/01/2005
The stadium deal for Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys is weighted heavily on the side of the team.

Research on the Economics of Sports Stadiums
BTN Staff
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 07/01/2005
Links to documents on publicly funded sports stadiums.

Demolishing Sports Welfare
Daniel McGraw
Reason Magazine
Published by Reason Foundation on 05/01/2005
When Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones asked Arlington, Texas, voters to pay for a fancy new stadium last November, he did not call the classic plays from ...

Is There an Economic Rationale For Subsidizing Sports Stadiums?
Robert A. Baade
Policy Study #13
Published by The Heartland Institute on 02/23/1987
This analysis begins with an assessment of the history and future prospects for privately financed and managed sports facilities. Can private interests ...

Caught Stealing: Debunking the Economic Case for D.C. Baseball
Dennis Coates and Brad R. Humphreys
Briefing Papers
Published by Cato Institute on 10/27/2004
District of Columbia mayor Anthony Williams has convinced Major League Baseball to move the Montreal Expos to D.C. in exchange for the city’s building ...

A Decade of Research on Sports Stadiums
compiled by John W. Skorburg
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 02/01/2005
This study’s conclusion, and that of nearly all academic economists studying this issue, is that professional sports generally have little, if any, positive ...

Chicago Stadiums Fail to Deliver Promised Benefits
Steve Stanek
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 02/01/2005
Chicago has two taxpayer-subsidized sports stadiums, neither of which appears to be living up to the promises made by supporters of taxpayer funding.

D.C. Councilwoman Stands against Taxpayer-Funded Stadium--For a While
John W. Skorburg
Budget & Tax News
Published by The Heartland Institute on 02/01/2005
Major League Baseball (MLB) was thrown a curveball on December 15 as District of Columbia Councilwoman Linda Cropp (D) tried to help local taxpayers by ...

Sports Should Not Be Government’s Top Priority
David Kline
Metropolitan News-Enterprise
Published by The Heartland Institute on 09/01/2004
We are living in strange times. The city of Sacramento is taking police officers off the street to save money at the same time it is considering paying ...

Bread and Circuses For The Poor
Doug Bandow
ALEC Policy Forum
Published by American Legislative Exchange Council on 01/01/2004
Sports championships, from the World Series to the Super Bowl, offer great pageantry, but not everyone actually cares who wins. Which is a good reason ...

If You Build It, They Will Leave: Sports Teams Fleece the Taxpayer, Again
Matt Welch
Reason Magazine
Published by Reason Foundation on 01/01/2004
On the same day the Florida Marlins paraded through Miami to celebrate their second World Series championship in six years, politicians from Miami-Dade ...

Sports Stadium Madness: How It Started, How to Stop It (summary)
Joseph L. Bast
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 02/01/1998
(PDF format) Heartland Institute President Bast synthesizes the latest research and writing on the subject of tax-funded subsidies to professional sports. ...

Sports Stadium Madness: How It Started, How to Stop It (part 1)
Joseph L. Bast
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 02/01/1998
Heartland Institute President Bast synthesizes the latest research and writing on the subject of tax-funded subsidies to professional sports. Such subsidies, ...

Sports Stadium Madness: How It Started, How to Stop It (part 2)
Joseph L. Bast
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 02/01/1998
Heartland Institute president Bast synthesizes the latest research and writing on the subject of tax-funded subsidies to professional sports. Such subsidies, ...

Sports Stadium Madness: How it Started, How to Stop It (part 3)
Joseph L. Bast
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 11/01/1998
Heartland Institute President Bast synthesizes the latest research and writing on the subject of tax-funded subsidies to professional sports. Such subsidies, ...

Sports Stadium Madness
Joseph L. Bast
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 02/01/1998
(PDF, single volume) Future historians will look back on the 1980s and 1990s with amazement. Communities that were hard-pressed to keep their schools ...

The Colts and Opportunity Cost
Cecil Bohanon and Noah Peconga
Indiana Policy Review
Published by Indiana Policy Review Foundation on 04/01/2003
Boosterism meets economics: Do Indianapolis taxpayers really want to get into this bidding war?

How the Packers Lost Out
Michael F. Gorman and Ike Brannon
Regulation
Published by Cato Institute on 12/01/2002
By eschewing market-based prices for PSLs and instead accepting public financing for stadiums, teams are missing a remarkable revenue opportunity.

Private Financing For A New Penguins Arena
Frank Gamrat, Ph.D
Allegheny Institute Report #02-08
Published by Allegheny Institute For Public Policy on 07/01/2002
The Pittsburgh Penguins have asked the Sports and exhibition Authority (SEA) to craft a financing plan for a new hockey area that relies heavily on taxpayer ...

Restoring Fan Loyalty to Professional Sports
Congressman Martin Hoke
A Heartland Perspective
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/26/1996
Congress granted sports leagues the special exemption from antitrust laws to create stability, and to protect communities and fans. It's pretty obvious ...

Congress Should End the Economic War for Sports and Other Businesses
Melvin L. Burstein and Arthur J. Rolnick
Heartland Perspective
Published by The Heartland Institute on 10/24/1995
To find a solution to NFL franchises hopscotching around the country, the Antitrust Subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Committee held hearings to consider ...

Experts Agree: Public Support for Stadiums Is Madness
Charles L. Klotzer
St. Louis Journalism Review
Published by St. Louis Journalism Review on 03/01/2002
Although research proves sports stadiums drain public resources, are of minimal or no economic benefit, and enrich primarily the owners of sport teams, ...

Stadiums, Professional Sports, and Economic Development: Assessing the Reality (Full Text)
Robert A. Baade
Heartland Policy Study No. 62
Published by The Heartland Institute on 04/04/1994
After examining an unprecedented quantity of data, Baade finds no factual basis for the conventional argument that professional sports stadiums and teams ...

Should Cities Pay for Sports Facilities?
Adam M. Zaretsky
The Reginal Economist
Published by St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank on 04/01/2001
A careful overview of the sport stadium subsidy debate finds massive subsidies, little evidence of positive social effects, but a strong political lobby ...

Public Funding of Sports Stadiums: Ballpark Boondoogle
Paul J. Gessing
NTU Policy Paper 133
Published by National Taxpaers Union on 02/01/2001
The public should not have to finance new ballparks just so team owners can sell or lease new skyboxes. Stadium subsidies come from various sources, and ...

The Case Against Public Subsidies for a New Florida Marlins Stadium. Part 1
Charles P. Rock
JMI Policy Report 31
Published by James Madison Institute on 04/01/2001
Cities that build big stadiums for their home teams get little or no benefit for this huge taxpayer subsidy to a monopolistic enterprise. Non-fans of ...

The Case Against Public Subsidies for a New Florida Marlins Stadium. Part 2
Charles P. Rock
JMI Policy Report 31
Published by James Madison Institute on 04/01/2001
Cities that build big stadiums for their home teams get little or no benefit for this huge taxpayer subsidy to a monopolistic enterprise. Non-fans of ...

Flawed Forecasts: A Critical Look at Convention Center Feasibility Studies (part 1)
Heywood T. Sanders
Pioneer Institute White Paper 9
Published by Pionner institute for Public Policy Research on 11/01/1999
Cities consistently overestimate the revenue from, and underestimate the cost of, building and maintaining a new convention center. People who sell cities ...

Flawed Forecasts: A Critical Look at Convention Center Feasibility Studies (Part 2)
Heywood T. Sanders
Pioneer Institute White Paper 9
Published by Pioneer Institute for Public Policy Research on 11/01/1999
Cities consistently overestimate the revenue from, and underestimate the cost of, building and maintaining a new convention center. People who sell cities ...

Flawed Forecasts: A Critical Look at Convention Center Feasibility Studies (summary)
Heywood T. Sanders
Pioneer Institute White Paper 9
Published by Pioneer institute for Public Policy Research on 11/01/1999
Cities consistently overestimate the revenue from, and underestimate the cost of, building and maintaining a new convention center. People who sell cities ...

Sports Stadiums as Wise Investments
Dean V. Baim
Heartland Policy Study 32
Published by The Heartland Institute on 11/01/1990
The wisdom of stadium investments, notes Pepperdine University economist Baim, can be evaluated at least in part by tools similar to those used to analyze ...

Stadium Subsidies Strike Out
Lawrence W. Reed
Mackinac Viewpoint
The Detroit Tigers want the state of Michigan to split the cost of a new ballpark. Instead, the Tigers ought to raise money through the stock market, ...

Subsidizing Sports Stadiums: Is it Worth It?
Joseph L. Bast
Heartland Perspective
Published by The Heartland Institute on 11/01/1990
There are more pro-suitable stadiums than teams to fill them, yet teams demand--and receive--free rent and other financial goodies. Of 13 stadiums studied, ...

Sports Stadiums: No Pot of Gold for Cities
Sam Staley and David Swindell
buckeye Perspective
Sports stadiums may have psychological and even political benefits, but they are falsely sold as an economic development tool. Cities and boosters ought ...

The Costly Relationship Between Major League Sports and Government (appendix)
Raymond J. Keating
Cato Policy Analysis 333
Published by Cato Institute on 04/05/1999
During the 20th century about $20 billion has been spent on sports facilities with taxpayers picking up three-quarters of the tab. As Keating notes, "The ...

The Costly Relationship Between Major League Sports and Government (part 1)
Raymond J. Keating
Policy Analysis 339 (part 1)
Published by Cato Institute on 04/05/1999
During the 20th century about $20 billion has been spent on sports facilities with taxpayers picking up three-quarters of the tab. As Keating notes, "The ...

The Costly Relationship Between Major League Sports and Government (part 2)
Raymond J. Keating
Cato Policy Analysis 339 (part 2)
Published by Cato Institute on 04/05/1999
During the 20th century about $20 billion has been spent on sports facilities with taxpayers picking up three-quarters of the tab. As Keating notes, "The ...

Alternative Plans for Pittsburgh Stadiums
Jake Haulk
Special Report
Published by Allegheny Institute for Public Policy on 03/01/1999
In February the Pennsylvania legislature approved a stadium financing plan that provides some protection to taxpayers, while imposing obligations on the ...

Can New Laws Level the Field?
Sean Paige, Tiffany Danitz, et al.
Insight Magazine
Published by The Washington Times on 08/01/1998
Congress is responding to the cries for help coming from cities and fans who are battling sports - franchise owners over issues from taxpayer subsidies ...

Challenging Convention(al) Wisdom: Hard Facts about the Proposed Boston Convention Center (part 1)
Heywood T. Sanders
Pioneer Institute White Paper
Published by Pioneer Institute for Public Policy Research on 05/01/1997
Boston's civic leaders and public officials want to invest $700 million in a new convention center. But their projections of convention center utilization ...

Challenging Convention(al) Wisdom: Hard Facts about the Proposed Boston Convention Center (part 2)
Heywood T. Sanders
Pioneer Institute White Paper
Published by Pioneer Institute for Public Policy Research on 05/01/1997
Boston's civic leaders and public officials want to invest $700 million in a new convention center. But their projections of convention center utilization ...

Challenging Convention(al) Wisdom: Hard Facts about the Proposed Boston Convention Center (summary)
Heywood T. Sanders
Pioneer Institute White Paper
Published by Pioneer Institute for Public Policy Research on 05/01/1997
Boston's civic leaders and public officials want to invest $700 million in a new convention center. But their projections of convention center utilization ...

Cities in Denial: The False Promise of Subsidized Tourist and Entertainment Complexes
Ronald D. Utt
Backgrounder No. 1223 (summary)
Published by The Heritage Foundation on 10/02/1998
States and municipalities spend heavily on sports complexes and other attractions--over 40 professional sports facilities are on the drawing boards or ...

Debate: Are Tax-Funded Sports Arenas a Good Investment for America's Cities?
Rick Horrow and Mark S. Rosentraub
Insight Magazine
Published by The Washington Times on 09/01/1997
Rick Horrow, a facilities development consultant for the National Football League, says yes; Mark S. Rosentraub, a professor and urban economist at Indiana ...

Edifice Complex: Why Politicians Love Stadiums
John Norton
Perspective on Public Policy No. 98-08
Published by The Goldwater Institute on 03/01/1998
A new government-subsidized sports facility is again under discussion in Arizona. But analysis shows that the only beneficiaries of such boondoggles are ...

Evolution of the Giveaway in Indiana
Frederick K. McCarthy, Charles A. Pechette, and Thomas D. Hession
Indiana Policy Review
From modest beginnings like FHA, subsidies have grown steadily and without reasoned debate in Indiana. Today, businesses pretty much expect subsidies, ...

Field of Bad Dreams: An Analysis of the Forbes Field II Task Force Final Report (part 1)
Grant Gulibon
Allegheny Institute Report
Published by Allegheny Institute for Public Policy on 07/01/1996
The economic benefits associated with professional sports are negligible; taxpayer support for this new stadium will mostly benefit the Pirates' owners ...

Field of Bad Dreams: An Analysis of the Forbes Field II Task Force Final Report (part 2)
Grant Gulibon
Allegheny Institute Report
Published by Allegheny Institute for Public Policy on 07/01/1996
The economic benefits associated with professional sports are negligible; taxpayer support for this new stadium will mostly benefit the Pirates' owners ...

If We Built It, Will They Come? And Other Questions About the Proposed Boston Convention Center (part 1)
Heywood T. Sanders
Pioneer Institute White Paper (part 1)
Published by Pioneer Institute for Public Policy Research on 02/01/1997
After an earlier expansion of Boston's Hynes Convention Center failed to live up to economic projections, boosters want to expand the center again. It ...

If We Built It, Will They Come? And Other Questions About the Proposed Boston Convention Center (part 2)
Heywood T. Sanders
Pioneer Institute White Paper (part 2)
Published by Pioneer Institute for Public Policy Research on 02/01/1997
After an earlier expansion of Boston's Hynes Convention Center failed to live up to economic projections, boosters want to expand the center again. It ...

Megaplex: Civic Asset or Public Albatross?
Dialogue
Three experts discuss whether a proposed Boston megaplex--a combined sports-convention facility--would generate needed revenue or drain the city's economy.

Nashville Hot with Sports Fever
Sean Paige, Tiffany Danitz, et al.
Insight Magazine
Published by The Washington Times on 08/03/1998
Sports loom large in the American psyche. Cities fight for treasured franchises, sometimes to the extent of Nashville's mind boggling $400 million plus ...

No to Sports Stadium Madness
Sol Stern
City Journal
A lifelong Yankees fan, New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani nevertheless should reconsider his support for a new tax-funded Yankee Stadium. The Mayor's support ...

Pitching Socialism
Raymond J. Keating
National Review Article
Published by National Review on 04/01/1996
"As the city of New York contemplates spending more than $1 billion for a new domed stadium in midtown Manhattan for the New York Yankees, we must ask ...

Private Stadium Financing Sources: Options for the Pirates and Steelers (part 1)`
Jake Haulk Ph.D.
Allegheny Institute Report
Published by The Allegheny Institute for Public Policy on 01/01/1998
Now that voters have trounced proposals for tax-based financing of sports stadium for the Pittsburgh Pirates and Steelers, it's time to examine private ...

Private Stadium Financing Sources: Options for the Pirates and Steelers (part 2)
Jake Haulk Ph.D.
Allegheny Institute Report
Published by The Allegheny Institute for Public Policy on 01/01/1998
Now that voters have trounced proposals for tax-based financing of sports stadium for the Pittsburgh Pirates and Steelers, it's time to examine private ...

Public Financing of Sports Stadiums: How Cincinnati Compares
David Swindell
Policy Insight
Published by The Buckeye Institute for Public Policy Solutions on 02/01/1996
Hamilton County, Ohio, is asking taxpayers to approve a sales tax increase to raise funds to subsidize new sports stadiums for the Reds and Bengals. Ultimately, ...

Public Funding of Stadiums: Governments Must Simply Say No (part 1)
Steven B. Loux Esq.
Commonwealth Foundation Report (part 1)
Published by The Commonwealth Foundation for Public Policy Alter on 01/01/1997
The Sports and Exposition Task Force established by Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge has recommended selling the state liquor stores and using some of ...

Public Funding of Stadiums: Governments Must Simply Say No (part 2)
Steven B. Loux Esq.
Commonwealth Foundation Report (part 2)
Published by The Commonwealth Foundation for Public Policy Alter on 01/01/1997
The Sports and Exposition Task Force established by Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge has recommended selling the state liquor stores and using some of ...

Public Funding of Stadiums: Governments Must Simply Say No (summary)
Steven B. Loux Esq.
Commonwealth Foundation Report (summary)
Published by The Commonwealth Foundation for Public Policy Alter on 01/01/1997
The Sports and Exposition Task Force established by Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge has recommended selling the state liquor stores and using some of ...

Public Welfare for Billionaires
Michael Rust
Insight Magazine
Published by The Washington Times on 08/01/1998
Owners of pro-sports franchises are pressuring many cities to provide luxurious stadiums at taxpayer expense. But some communities are throwing up a tough ...

Public-Private Promises 1: Three Rivers Stadium (part 1)
Grant Gulibon
Allegheny Institute Report (part 1)
Published by Allegheny Institute for Public Policy on 07/01/1996
Pittsburgh's Three Rivers Stadium is deemed "economically obsolete for baseball" by boosters of the Forbes Field II project, yet privately owned Busch ...

Public-Private Promises 1: Three Rivers Stadium (part 2)
Grant Gulibon
Allegheny Institute Report (part 2)
Published by Allegheny Institute for Public Policy on 07/01/1996
Pittsburgh's Three Rivers Stadium is deemed "economically obsolete for baseball" by boosters of the Forbes Field II project, yet privately owned Busch ...

Put Pro Sports Blackmailers Out of Business
Grant Gulibon
The American Enterprise
Taxpayers shouldn't be expected to pay to construct sports stadiums--and they don't have to. Private financing is a better alternative for stadium construction, ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Baade)
Robert A. Baade (Lake Forest College)
Policy Study (part 14)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Bettman)
NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman
Policy Study (part 8)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (DeWine)
Sen Mike DeWine (R-Ohio)
Policy Study (part 2)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Dorgan)
Sen. Byron L. Dorgan (D-North Dakota)
Policy Study (part 4)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Glenn)
Sen. John Glenn (D-Ohio)
Policy Study (part 3)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Hoke)
Rep. Martin R. Hoke (R-Ohio)
Heartland Institute Policy Study (part 6)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Lanier)
Mayor Bob Lanier (Houston, Texas)
Policy Study (part 9)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Moag)
Chairman John Moag Jr. (Maryland Stadium Authority)
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Roberts)
Gary R. Roberts (Tulane Law School)
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Ross)
Stephen F. Ross (University of Illinois)
Policy Study (part 13)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Stokes)
Rep. Louis Stokes (D-Ohio)
Policy Study (part 5)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Summary)
The Heartland Institute (unsigned)
Policy Study (summary)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Tagliabue)
NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue
Policy Study (part 7)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (Thurmond)
Sen. Strom Thurmond (R-South Carolina)
Heartland Institute Policy Study (part 1)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? (White)
Mayor Michael R. White (Cleveland, Ohio)
Policy Study (part 10)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Over a dozen federal policy-makers, sports league commissioners, municipal authorities, and academics have told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that Congress ...

Should Governments Own Convention Centers?
Edwin S. Mills
Heartland Institute Policy Study
Governments should stop subsidizing the construction of convention centers and sell those they already own. One survey found that annual operating losses ...

Should Governments Own Convention Centers? (summary)
Edwin S. Mills
Heartland Institute Policy Study (summary)
Governments should stop subsidizing the construction of convention centers and sell those they already own. One survey found that annual operating losses ...

Sports Gladiators, Bread and Circuses
Sean Paige
Insight Magazine
Published by The Washington Times on 08/03/1998
The economics of sports entertainment have transformed many star athletes into multimillionaire prima donnas with little in common with - or use for - ...

Sports Stadium Madness
Joseph L. Bast
Policy Study - Executive Summary
Published by The Heartland Institute on 02/01/1998
Taxpayer subsidies to professional sports teams amount to some $500 million a year. The decision to subsidize a team is driven by competition among cities ...

Sports Stadiums as Wise Investments (appendix)
Dean V. Baim
Heartland Institute Policy Study 32
Published by The Heartland Institute on 11/01/1990
The wisdom of stadium investments, notes Pepperdine University economist Baim, can be evaluated at least in part by tools similar to those used to analyze ...

Sports Stadiums as Wise Investments (summary)
Dean V. Baim
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 11/01/1990
The wisdom of stadium investments, notes Pepperdine University economist Baim, can be evaluated at least in part by tools similar to those used to analyze ...

Sports Stadiums Can Be Privately Financed
David Swindell
Essay
Published by The Buckeye Institute for Public Policy Solutions on 09/01/1995
Ohio is out of step with other states and cities, which have moved away from public financing, and toward private financing, of sports stadiums.

Sports Welfare
Doug Bandow
The Freeman
Published by Foundation for Economic Education on 06/01/1996
Professional sports franchises owned and managed by multi-millionaires aren't deserving of taxpayer subsidy.

Stadium Follies: Arena Impact Overstated
Michael L. Walden
Carolina Journal
Most studies tend to overstate the economic impact of sports teams. Teams and facilities should be financed by owners and fans--not by taxpayers.

Stadiums, Professional Sports, and Economic Development: Assessing the Reality
Robert A. Baade
Policy Study (summary)
Published by The Heartland Institute on 04/01/1994
This classic Policy Study from The Heartland Institute questions the assumption that public subsidies to professional sports franchises and stadiums make ...

Stadiums, Professional Sports, and Economic Development: Assessing the Reality (appendices)
Robert A. Baade
Heartland Policy Study 62
Published by The Heartland Institute on 04/01/1994
This classic Policy Study from The Heartland Institute questions the assumption that public subsidies to professional sports franchises and stadiums make ...

Stadiums, Professional Sports, and Economic Development: Assessing the Reality (part 1)
Robert A. Baade
Heartland Policy Study 62
Published by The Heartland Institute on 04/01/1994
This classic Policy Study from The Heartland Institute questions the assumption that public subsidies to professional sports franchises and stadiums make ...

Stadiums, Professional Sports, and Economic Development: Assessing the Reality (part 2)
Robert A. Baade
Heartland Policy Study 62
Published by The Heartland Institute on 04/01/1994
This classic Policy Study from The Heartland Institute questions the assumption that public subsidies to professional sports franchises and stadiums make ...

Stadiums, Professional Sports, and Economic Development: Assessing the Reality (part 3)
Robert A. Baade
Heartland Policy Study 62
Published by The Heartland Institute on 04/01/1994
This classic Policy Study from The Heartland Institute questions the assumption that public subsidies to professional sports franchises and stadiums make ...

Subsidies, Professional Sports, and the Squeeze on Indianapolis
Mark S. Rosentraub
In-Roads
Demographics in the Indianapolis market suggest that professional sports have a very uncertain future there. What could help? Only some revision to the ...

Subsidy for a Billionaire
Bob Williams
Policy Highlighter
Published by Evergreen Freedom Foundation on 03/01/1997
If Paul Allen wants a new stadium for the Seattle Seahawks, his $10.8 billion equity stake in Microsoft could easily provide the necessary capital.

Tax-Exempt Bonds and the Economics of Professional Sports Stadiums (part 1)
Dennis Zimmerman
CRS Report for Congress (part 1)
Published by Congressional Research Service on 05/01/1996
An economist for the Congressional Research Service concludes that federal, state, and local taxpayers don't benefit economically from subsidizing professional ...

Tax-Exempt Bonds and the Economics of Professional Sports Stadiums (part 2)
Dennis Zimmerman
CRS Report for Congress (part 2)
Published by Congressional Research Service on 05/01/1996
An economist for the Congressional Research Service concludes that federal, state, and local taxpayers don't benefit economically from subsidizing professional ...

The Economic Impact of the Pirates (part 1)
Dr. C. Jake Haulk
Allegheny Institute Report (part 1)
Published by Allegheny Institute for Public Policy on 05/01/1995
The Pittsburgh Pirates, valued at $70 million, are the least valuable team in major league baseball. This report examines the case for public subsidy ...

The Economic Impact of the Pirates (part 2)
Dr. C. Jake Haulk
Allegheny Institute Report (part 2)
Published by Allegheny Institute for Public Policy on 05/01/1995
The Pittsburgh Pirates, valued at $70 million, are the least valuable team in major league baseball. This report examines the case for public subsidy ...

The Economic Impact of the Pirates (summary)
Dr. C. Jake Haulk
Allegheny Institute Report (summary)
Published by Allegheny Institute for Public Policy on 05/01/1995
The Pittsburgh Pirates, valued at $70 million, are the least valuable team in major league baseball. This report examines the case for public subsidy ...

The False Promise of a Sports-Based Revitalization Strategy (conference paper)
Ronald D. Utt
Conference Paper
Published by Southern Regional Science Association on 04/17/1999
A growing body of literature disproves the economic claims made by stadium proponents. So reports Utt, an economist at The Heritage Foundation. Baltimore's ...

The False Promise of Subsidized Tourist and Entertainment Complexes (Heritage Foundation)
Ronald D. Utt
Heritage Backgrounder No. 1223
Published by The Heritage Foundation on 10/02/1998
States and municipalities spend heavily on sports complexes and other attractions--over 40 professional sports facilities are on the drawing boards or ...

The Minors: Good Clean Fun
Jennifer G. Hickey
Insight Magazine
Published by The Washington Times on 08/01/1998
For all the change experienced in the wide world-of professional sports during this century, minor-league baseball has managed to retain continuity, simplicity ...

The NFL Oilers: A Case Study in Corporate Welfare
Raymond J. Keating
The Freeman
Published by Foundation for Economic Education on 04/01/1998
Nashville recently bid the NFL Oilers away from their home in Houston. "Winning" Mayor Bredesen supported his city's efforts in the contest . . . yet ...

The Stadium Trap
Charles Mahtesian
Governing
Published by Congressional Quarterly Inc. on 05/01/1998
Across the country, referenda that would allocate tax money to professional sports teams and stadiums have been overwhelmingly rejected by voters. But ...

We Wuz Robbed! The Subsidized Stadium Scam
Raymond J. Keating
Policy Review
Though studies show that new sports stadiums generate no positive economic effects for local communities, government officials nationwide are throwing ...

Why Subsidize Sports?
John E. Berthoud
Essay
"Cities that pay top dollar to get, or keep, major league sports teams are falling for just one more costly, foolish economic development boondoggle. ...

Public Funding of Stadiums: Governments Must Simply Say No
Steven B. Lou, Esq
Intellectual Ammunition
Published by The Heartland Institute on 06/01/1997
Selling state liquor stores is a long overdue act . . . but using public moneys to help fund the construction of new, or the renovation of existing, stadiums ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? Volume 1: Federal Policy Makers
Congressional testimony
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
On November 29, 1995, the Subcommittee on Antitrust, Business Rights, and Competition of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary held hearings on sports ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? Volume 2: League Commissioners
Congressional testimony
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
On November 29, 1995, the Subcommittee on Antitrust, Business Rights, and Competition of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary held hearings on sports ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? Volume 3: Municipal Authorities
Congressional testimony
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
On November 29, 1995, the Subcommittee on Antitrust, Business Rights, and Competition of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary held hearings on sports ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises? Volume 4: Academics
Congressional testimony
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
On November 29, 1995, the Subcommittee on Antitrust, Business Rights, and Competition of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary held hearings on sports ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises?
Volume 1: Federal Policy Makers
Congressional testimony
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Executive Summary (html) -- On November 29, 1995, the Subcommittee on Antitrust, Business Rights, and Competition of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises?
Volume 2: League Commissioners
Congressional testimony
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Executive Summary (html) -- On November 29, 1995, the Subcommittee on Antitrust, Business Rights, and Competition of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises?
Volume 3: Municipal Authorities
Congressional testimony
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Executive Summary (html) -- On November 29, 1995, the Subcommittee on Antitrust, Business Rights, and Competition of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary ...

Should Congress Stop the Bidding War for Sports Franchises?
Volume 4: Academics
Congressional testimony
Heartland Policy Study
Published by The Heartland Institute on 08/01/1996
Executive Summary (html) -- On November 29, 1995, the Subcommittee on Antitrust, Business Rights, and Competition of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary ...

[Barbie]

"I have no clue and dont care!"

Perfectly sums up most of you pro-stadium boneheads!

Thanks, leroy

[Thomas]

Leroy Jenkins is a funny guy:

"i brought up three events that will bring billions and billions of dollars to the city. Just ask San Fran!"

Ok, I asked economic professors, the prove that you are dead wrong:

"Professional sports leagues, franchises, and civic boosters, have used the promise of an all star game or league championship as an incentive for host cities to construct new stadiums or arenas at considerable public expense. Past league-sponsored studies have estimated that Super Bowls, All-Star games and other sports mega-events increase economic activity by hundreds of millions of dollars in host cities. Our analysis fails to support these claims. Our detailed regression analysis of taxable sales in Florida over the period 1980 to 2004 reveals that on, average, mega-events ranging from the World Cup to the World Series have been associated with reductions in taxable sales in host regions of $5 to $10 million per month."
- Robert Baade
Department of Economics and Business, Lake Forest College
- Robert Baumann
Department of Economics, College of the Holy Cross
- Victor Matheson Department of Economics, College of the Holy Cross

Here's the link to the research:
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/economics/RePEc/Matheson_TaxableSales.pdf

[Leroy Jenkins]

Wow Barbie knows how to use the Google on the internet machine. Now barbie go through and look for all the articles that support building stadiums and the revenue that comes from them! There will be the same if not more articles. The only way do research is go to different city's and see it for yourself or call different city chamber of commerces around the country and see what they think now about there stadiums and the money that comes from them. Use your internet machine you can find the phone numbers!

[Barbie]

Leroy, that's your job big guy.

And "billions and billions" of dollars? Really? Did you just say that?

Hilarious.

[homer]

POWW forgot to paint in the floating manatee corpses! surely there will be enough of them to fill in most of the bay! and how about the enormous swarm of mosquitoes that will undoubtedly swarm the site at the first whiff of a baseball game being played!

absolutely nobody would ever go to a game in such a terrible location anyway...the traffic, crowds and noise would be unbearable!

[Thomas]

Leroy the difference is that the studies that support building stadiums are done by the teams that benefit from said stadium.

The ones referenced above are independent and completed by university scholars with no agenda.

I have to congratulate you LeRoy, I really did not think there was anyone left on earth who would still try to use the "this is a huge boost to the economy" line to support a new arena or stadium. You are 10 years behind the curve on this one and that is impressive.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Thomass why would citys keep having these events if they didn't make them tons of money? Why would they go through the headache? Professors this and Professors that! Blah Blah Blah! Professors don't like sports and they do their studies and you nimrods believe everything they say! Do your own study! Call different City's Chamber of commerce and ask them. don't just sit there and believe all the Professors. Do your own research! I did! I liked what i heard!

Why are the poww stealing my signs? No one wants to answer that question.

[Thomas]

"POWW forgot to paint in the floating manatee corpses!"

That is absolutely the line of the day. Hysterical. I cannot stop laughing picturing the "X" for eyes in the dead manatees!

Outstanding work.

[Don Mott]

Ray F, I called your comment uneducated not you, and with that statement you proved you are indeed uneducated on the Rays financing plan. I believe that could be construed as attacking the issue and not the person. BTW speaking of personal attacks, I'm a Democrat not a Republican Thank you.

[Leroy Jenkins]

People its not about Republican and Democrats.

[Ray F]

Thomas, using that thought process, are you saying that the superbowl being held in Tampa next year is not going to bring millions in spending and publicity? That would have gone to a different area?

It's not a matter of should we or shouldn't we. It's a matter of if we don't, someone else will. Why should San Antonio or Portland be given our team that we fought for 80 years for to showcase their new ballparks for 81 days a year?

Every time Barry Bonds hit a homerun into the water, it was amazing to see the replays of the stadium on the waterfront.

WHY CAN'T THAT BE US???

WHY CAN'T WE MOVE PAST THE OLD DAYS?

WHY DO WE LET FEAR OF THE UNCERTAIN STOP US FROM DOING WHAT WE WANT?

THERE'S GOING TO BE A NEW STADIUM AND AT THIS RATE, IT'LL BE IN SOMEBODY ELSE'S BACKYARD.

[Thomas]

Hey Leroy:

"They typically count spending by local residents as being 'new' or 'incremental' spending that adds to the economic impact," Dan Rascher, director of academic programs and associate professor at the University of San Francisco's Sport Management program told The San Francisco Chronicle . "If there were no All Star game, those local residents would spend the money elsewhere in town; it's not really economic impact, it's just displaced from somewhere else toward the All-Star Game."

According to published reports San Francisco is spending $700,000 for extra police and transportation for the All-Star festivities.

"The sales and hotel tax generated from these types of events typically doesn't add up to what the city is directly giving toward the event."

It’s usually good to host events but there isn’t much of a direct economic impact. Put in simpler terms its great hotel rooms will be filled in San Francisco but it’s also the middle of the summer and San Francisco hotel rooms would be filled to capacity regardless of whether or not the MLB All-Star Game was being held in the city."

So yeah, it's not that big of an incentive to have an All-Star game.
And that's a professor of Sports Management talking.
Nice try though!

[Make A Deal]

went away to pick up kids from school.
I see the conversation is still at calling each other idiots.

I'm going to check with the 6 children ages 6-13 in my living room to see what they would suggest.

Barbie- I'll mention the analogy you posted earlier, as how one should make a point.

By the way, they want a downtown skate park. If baseball leaves - I will push for the X-Games arena in the Dome!

[Paul]

Well, Kalt got his lunch handed to him by the Pinellas County Commissioners. They are not happy with the rush job, the lack of financing detail nor him waiting until the last moment to talk to them. The Commission also made several snide remarks about the City of St Pete as well, I mean some comments that made it quite clear they do no like St Pete. Great! I hope they shoot down this bed tax extension for the stadium and use the money for what its designed for, promoting tourism and beach renourishment. If St Pete Council can't have the guts to overwhelmingly say 'no way', perhaps we can rely on our County to save the day.

Kalt, you are going down. Pack your bags and git while the gittin's good.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Ray F Don't worry, this city will have baseball here for a long time. poww is in a fight i don't think they will win. We will be voting on this stadium in November. The Rays will win enough games that most of the people in this city will vote for a new stadium.

I have calculated the NO VOTES so far
here they are
Don Motts
Judytwo
Paulone
barbie
chris jenkins
jon mcpee
get-smart
aaron

[Chester]

Did Barbie reference people living on boats? That's a great source of revenue for the city. When have using public funds for anything, not just stadiums, been profitable? I don't believe the Pinellas Hope shelter or funding Albert Whitted provided anything but another financial drain on the city. How about the Mahaffey? It's a half-full half a** attempt at making St. Pete cultural. Glad to see my taxes hard at work hosting graduation ceremonies! In my travels around the country, these glorious projects aren't referred to very often when I mention that I am from St. Pete.

[Leroy Jenkins]

the poww can't win against Jesse Jackson and the NAACP!

[Thomas]

Ray,

No. I'm stating, with overwhelming support of actual evidence, that after you balance the spending at the Super Bowl with the amount it costs for additional city services and the amount of money that is simply displaced from other local businesses, you do not end up with any net benefit. In fact, it's probably a net loss.

For example, boosters claimed the 2001 Super Bowl brought $300 million in economic impact to the area. But according to sales tax receipts, sales in Hillsborough County for January 2001 were about $1.44 billion, compared to $1.4 billion for a year earlier. There was growth, sure, but no more than is seen in many year-to-year comparisons when the Super Bowl wasn’t a factor; in fact, it was less than the average growth, and far less than what was advertised.

And that's before you factor in additional costs for police, paramedics, transportation, etc.

This is the economic reality of the situation. You can get the numbers from the county.

[free-plug]

With the NAACP support we can get NBA downtown too!

[Don Mott]

Hey Leroy, Since you are mentioning all of these benefits and the billions of dollars that we would receive how about providing a little proof beyond your words. I've seen plenty of evidence from the opponents but nothing but words from proponents. Verify your facts or don't present them as such.

[Thomas]

Don,

Why would you even bother with Leroy. He is not interested in anything other than trolling for reaction.

He's not going to all of sudden decide he wants to use facts or logic in a debate.

Just ignore him. Like any child, if he doesnt get attention, he'll just leave.

[Don Mott]

Hey Paul I saw that too. They were a lot tougher than the roll over pet my belly City Council. The tourism board is going to be tough for them too.

No stadium. Not on the waterfront.

It will blight the waterfront, yes. It will be huge, it will be ugly beyond belief.

It will block all the wind from the sailing club... where, yes, people (and for you worried about children, the little kids) learn to sail boats and guess what? Its not expensive either. I think you pay 125 bucks for a year and can use boats all year long. So long, good bye sailing club. Anyone who has flown a big kite or sailed knows you don't get wind next to big buildings. So long, good bye Shakespeare in the park (that would be Demen's landing for those who don't know). So long, good bye peaceful live aboard mooring for sailboats.... ahhh, but we'll get a mega MLB stadium so we can be a 'real city'. ahh, ok, build it then, cause I just don't feel like a 'real' fan sitting in the Trop. I feel shortchanged and need more, bigger, blinkier.

The case for a waterfront stadium is hillarious, as there is no case, other then wanting a bigger 'thing' than the jones' next door. We asked for more park space and Council said yes. I think they should stand by their word.

St Pete is d