Rays financing press conference moved

Just in from One Tropicana Drive:

"Due to a scheduling conflict at Tropicana Field, the Tampa Bay Rays will present the preliminary financing plan for the proposed waterfront ballpark at the St. Petersburg City Council Meeting at City Hall tomorrow at 3 p.m.

"The team had originally planned to present the plan at noon on Thursday.  The Pinellas County Commissioners have been invited to attend. Rays officials will be available for media interviews following the presentation."

This means the press conference will no longer be a press conference. Rays officials will be making the financial pitch directly to the City Counci at the beginning of its meeting. Apparently, the council had a morning work session and would not have been able to make the Rays' press conference.

This also means the presentation will be broadcast on the city's TV network, WSPF, or Bright House Channel 615. We'll also have live coverage at www.tampabay.com starting at 3 p.m.

Comments

[Dr_Dug]

Can't wait to hear thier spin on the waterfront. We all know it's a scam....but I'am curious to hear how they paint the picture. Finances all aside.....THERE ISN"T ENOUGH PARKING DOWNTOWN...and...if an elevator has a weight and capacity limit, then why not a city block? NO MORE DOWNTOWN SURPRISES!!!

[Concerned Citizen]

Why is the city hearing financing plans? How come none of the citizens knew about this meeting until just now????? This is sneaky! What's going on here? Why all this secrecy?

[St Pete Resident]

Financial pitch to the Council? More like a potential PAYOFF to the Council so they can try to shove the waterfront down our throats. THE MAJORITY DON'T WANT A WATERFRONT BASEBALL PARK!!

[HangMan]

Who voted these idiots in office? They continue to secretly and openly lie to the residents of St.Pete and it's getting old. Everyone against the waterfront idea should show up at that meeting and show thier sick of it!! Secret meetings, lying to the voters....STAND UP ST.PETE!!!

[Go Rays]

The ownership group is following protocol. There is nothing SNEAKY going on here. The owners are simply exercising their public rights just as any other developer, event planner, or ordinary citizens has to present proposals to the city. Let the process take its course and let go to vote. Then it will be fair as the people we speak through their votes. If it passes, great! If it doesn't oh well.

As for parking, I go to Lightning games all the time and park Downtown & its fine. In the years leading up to opening the new stadium other new developments including parking garages will be built as well to support it.

[Go Rays]

The ownership group is following protocol. There is nothing SNEAKY going on here. The owners are simply exercising their public rights just as any other developer, event planner, or ordinary citizens has to present proposals to the city. Let the process take its course and let go to vote. Then it will be fair as the people we speak through their votes. If it passes, great! If it doesn't oh well.

As for parking, I go to Lightning games all the time and park Downtown & its fine. In the years leading up to opening the new stadium other new developments including parking garages will be built as well to support it.

[lb]

These scamsters should be run out of town on a rail! Take this team someplace else THAT WANTS THEM. The attendance speaks VOLUMES... THERE IS NO INTEREST HERE!!

[Richard]

Actually - most citizens who are paying attention knew about this a couple weeks ago. You know - when the City Council requested the Rays provide financing details before the end of the month. Then the Rays scheduled a press conference at the Trop, which had to be moved to accomodate scheduling issues with city officials.

The conspiracy thing is getting old - but if all you can do is spew soundbites, may as well go with what you know.

Facts aren't in on the stadium plan, the financing deal will be an important piece of the puzzle for those wanting to make an informed opinion.

Oh, and hey look!!!!!!!! I can type in ALL CAPS and use LOTS OF PUNCTUATION too!!!!!!!

Don't think it makes my point any clearer though, kind of makes me look hysterical.

[Mike]

It would have been nice to have it at the Trop were there is more room so more people could see and hear the presentation.

[Don Mott]

Interesting that it took them two days to realize there was a scheduling conflict. I wasn't aware that the council scheduled work sessions so suddenly. Did the Rays not check the councils schedule and or communicate with the council beforehand. Or is there something else going on? It is hard to believe there is no con job going on.

[Jon McPhee]

How quickly we forget. Here's a piece from the Times, way back on November 25, 2007, shortly before the Rays put out their plan for fleecing the sheep of the Pinellas Peninsula.

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/11/25/Southpinellas/Rays_owners_dealing_w.shtml
In pertinent part, it reads--

"ST. PETERSBURG -- Convincing elected officials to foot two-thirds of the $450-million bill for a new Tampa Bay Rays stadium may be a tough sell.
But the 23 individuals who own the baseball team should have no trouble scraping up the remaining $150-million.

That's particularly true for the six-man partnership, led by New York's 48-year-old Stuart L. Sternberg, that spent $65-million to buy a controlling stake of the Rays in 2004.

The Sternberg Six - which includes Andrew Cader, Randy W. Frankel, Timothy R. Mullen, Gary F. Goldring, Stephen M. Levick and Sternberg - are essentially low-profile financial experts who were at the right place at the right time. They all had been top executives at a New York securities firm called Spear Leeds & Kellogg in 2000 when Wall Street banking and investment giant Goldman Sachs acquired it for $6.5-billion.
Sternberg alone took home, conservatively, tens of millions of dollars.

Since then, the men, all roughly 50 years old, have lived like corporate nobility, spending their free time investing, pushing pet causes and acquiring lavish lifestyles and homes far from the Tampa Bay area.

None of the Sternberg Six agreed to be interviewed for this story, deferring instead to a press conference scheduled for Wednesday at Al Lang Field that team officials say will provide details of the new park and the redevelopment of Tropicana Field.

Sternberg's group could probably foot the entire $450-million bill themselves rather than dip into the public kitty for a big chunk of it. Not that they would. But a cursory look at their assets shows just how deep their pockets are. For example:

- Andrew Cader, a 49-year-old New Yorker who owns a $7.4-million vacation home in Aspen, Colo., will mark his 50th birthday there next year with a four-day bash. His house in Bedford, N.Y. - whose upscale lifestyle attracts the likes of Martha Stewart - is valued at $7.2-million.

- Randy W. Frankel, 50, owns a $7.6-million house along the New Jersey coast and a 3.5-acre estate in Montville, N.J. Sternberg's Harrison, N.Y., home is valued at $6-million.

- Timothy R. Mullen, a 51-year-old Chicagoan, donated $100,000 to the reelection campaign of Democratic Mayor Richard Daley last year. That put him into an exclusive club of corporate kingpins that included billionaire real estate investor Sam Zell and the executive chairman of insurer Aon Corp.

Meanwhile, the Sternberg Six remain active investors, and not just in the Rays. Partnerships led by Frankel have purchased a 730-acre ski resort in the Catskill Mountains for $25-million as well as the centuries-old Montville Inn in New Jersey. Mullen served on the board of online brokerage Thinkorswim Inc. of Chicago until February, when Utah-based Investools Inc. acquired it for $340-million.
Money isn't all that the Sternberg Six bring to the stadium deal. Goldring has an MBA from the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business and a law degree from Columbia University. Cader, the former co-CEO of Spear Leeds, worked closely with former Goldman Sachs chairman and current U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and has testified before Congress. Frankel is a former CPA.
Collectively, their clout and experience putting together complex deals, sometimes under fire, should serve them well in the stadium negotiations.
As Wall Streeters who appreciate the power of leveraging their investments, it's unlikely the Rays owners would spend much of their own money to pay the full $150-million, anyway.
Sal Galatioto, president of a New York investment bank that specializes in sports deals, said teams often borrow money to help pay their share of a stadium's cost. Some are able to pledge future cash flows from sources such as naming rights or sky boxes.
"There are a whole bunch of ways to structure a stadium deal," he said. The Rays will provide additional information about the proposed deal when they officially unveil it Wednesday [that was supposed to be November 28].

Besides, the Sternberg Six are not the Rays' only deep pockets. Joseph Chlapaty, one of 17 limited partners who held on after the team's general partners were bought out, recently donated $22-million to the University of Dubuque for a recreation facility being built in his name...."

Tell me again why the public is being asked to foot the bill on this? Once again, the Giants' AT&T Stadium was built in a rough area of the working waterfront (old docks and factories) BY A CONSORTIUM OF BUSINESS PEOPLE WITH A LOT OF MONEY THAT SAW SOME VALUE IN MAKING A NEW PLACE FOR THE GIANTS TO PLAY, to the tune of a reported $316 million. That's in 1997-2000 go-go San Francisco, which was economically in the peak of health, and a whole lot richer than this area. The "local contribution" was money for light-rail and surface public transit improvements.

Are we all going to have to swallow the baited hook on this one?

[Sal]

Most of the people here that oppose the new Stadium don't deserve to have an MLB team in their backyard. Having a team is a privilege not a right. If this deal doesn't go through move the Team on the Tampa side of the bay.

[Don Mott]

So it is a privilege for cash strapped taxpayers to pay money and give up services so that a few millionaires can get even richer? Wow I feel so lucky.

[Dr_Dug]

richard..your an assclown! (no caps!)

[Top Dog]

Sal...what a great idea. If we take that idea to the Council meeting....will the Rays finally give up thier quest? But before they leave, they need to pay thier bill at the TROP.

[Look around!]

Close minded, short sided people drive me NUTS! Take a long look at what San Francisco's water front baseball stadium has done to a city that needs no downtown help. Take a look at what Camden Yards has done to the Harborside in Baltimore. The Dome as it stands now is not in downtown St. Pete. It might as well be in Pinellas Park! Put the stadium on the waterfront where people can stroll downtown and spend $$$. They should take advantage of a great water front location that would make the stadium one of the jewels of MLB. Stop being so freeking shortsighted!

[Jon McPhee]

Hey, Look around! San Francisco's waterfront stadium was built with ACTUAL BUSINESSMEN'S MONEY, ABOUT $316 MILLION OF IT, NOT PUBLIC MONEY. The only public money was infrastructure improvements to light rail and surface transport that serve the whole community and fortuitously the AT&T Stadium. AT&T was built in a rough port area, kind of like the Port of Tampa. Maybe our own rich guys, who could write checks out of what they've "earned" elsewhere for the cost of a SailBoat, should think about moving the Tampa Bay Rays to Tampa. That should make Lana and the other folks who think "we" ought to give the Rays owners a stadium happy, except then all these really Slick Willies would be courting Pam Iorio instead of Mayor Rick, to see if she would be naive enough to give away the store. Of course, then Lana might gripe a little about freeloading on HER dime instead of ours.

And if you believe Camden Yards is such a great deal, take a look at a pretty complete analysis, at

http://www.econ.jhu.edu/People/Hamilton/Camden.pdf

Camden was built largely with STATE funds, not surprising in a state that brought us Spiro Agnew. Here's what the authors concluded:

"Our main task in this chapter is to ask whether Oriole Park at Camden Yards is, or at least
might possibly be, an exception to the conventional wisdom that publicly financed sports stadiums
are bad deals for cities. Is the ballpark good for Baltimore and Maryland, or just for the Orioles?
Following that discussion, we present an abbreviated analysis of the Ravens' (NFL) stadium at
Camden Yards.
Taking account of all of the measurable benefits of the Camden Yards investment (i.e., job
creation and tax imports), we estimate that baseball at Camden Yards generates approximately
$3M in annual economic benefits to the Maryland economy, at an annual cost to the taxpayers of
Maryland of approximately $14M. The net annual cost is approximately $11M, or about $14.70
per year per Baltimore metro household.4 All of these identifiable benefits to the Maryland
economy are in the form of tax and job imports; thus these benefits occur at the expense of
neighboring economies. In addition, Maryland taxpayers bear only a portion of the true social
costs of the stadium; it is likely that non-Marylanders may incur as much as approximately another
$12M per year because investment funds were diverted from the private sector to the stadium and
distortions created by the taxation required to finance the stadium deficit.
Even at Camden Yards, public expenditure on the baseball stadium cannot be justified on
grounds of local economic development. If the public subsidy is justified at all, such justification
must rest on public consumption externalities which accrue to Baltimoreans as a result of the
presence of the Orioles."

A "wonderful baseball experience" does not equate to the right to rip off the public to put up new a stadium every decade or so.

[Don Mott]

Yep, Look around you'd best be doing just that because the millionaires are about to stick their hands into your pockets.

[Dr_Dug]

Hey (Look Around)..your an assclown! Why don't YOU look around and point out the parking spaces that'll be needed for "all those fans". And what about the road system? And of course the old question of "if the Rays haven't fullfilled the first promises they made(shall I pull out the old articles from when the Trop was first initiated)how are they going to move a few blocks away and make it work?
Remember, Rays Owners and City Leaders were 100% WRONG on the redevelopment around the Trop coming true. In fact...are they moving because they don't want to be near Black People? You tell me...look around!

[JudyToo]

You know, it is just not that difficult yet some of you gentlemen just don't get it, do you?

We don't want the $450 Million risk.
We don't want a huge monster stadium on our waterfront.
We don't want to see just how many real problems will surface (choose from financial, traffic, parking, contamination, lights, noise, litter, rain, lightning, heat, humidity, mosquitoes, infrastructure costs, and on and on...). If just one or two turns out not to be quite as hunky dory as those who want to blindly forge ahead thinking that it will be OK, this thing could well be a huge disaster. Why take such a big risk when it's so unnecessary?

They can be big boys like the Yankees and buy the Trop land from the city for a fair price (no, not $50-$60 Million, a FAIR price) and BUILD THEIR OWN STADIUM WITH THEIR MONEY, NOT MINE!
Wouldn't even need a referendum. Just do it.

San Francisco cleaned up an industrial area of the waterfront and the investment was almost all private money. You are absolutely correct - their waterfront didn't need help - it was fine. The new stadium extended it into a bad area. The Rays stadium will be a blight on OUR waterfront.

The Orioles were sold for a very handsome profit ($100 Million?) upon completion of Camden Yards, which was built in a blighted area about the same distance from their waterfront as the Trop.

AARON SHAROCKMAN, April 4, 2008:
"Newspaper polls at the time showed that a plurality of citizens opposed the proposal. But the $106.5-million Orioles' park, which eventually was financed by a new instant lottery game, did not require a voter referendum. Neither did a plan to build it on the site of a degrading warehouse district."

"Eli Jacobs bought the Orioles in 1989 - pre-Camden Yards - for $70-million. After the new ballpark opened (in 1992), Jacobs sold the team to Baltimore lawyer Peter Angelos for $173-million."

Everything is just fine in St. Pete, we need to LISTEN to our mayor!

Rays play in a great ballpark; what they need is our support
By RICK BAKER
Published March 19, 2005

The Times' recent series, What Went Wrong? 10 Years of Devil Rays Baseball, discussed the 10 years of experience since the awarding of a Major League Baseball team to St. Petersburg.

Tropicana Field provides a great home for Major League Baseball, today and into the future. It possesses functionality, comfort and good sight lines. Comments that Tropicana Field was already an old facility when the Devil Rays took to the field in 1998 are very misleading. Over 85-million new dollars were spent renovating the Trop just before the Rays' opening season, adding renovations identified by the team and Major League Baseball. To assert that it was a "10-year-old stadium" is comparable to saying that the Renaissance Vinoy Resort, which underwent a $93-million renovation in the early 1990s, was a 75-year-old, out-of-date hotel when it reopened. Just as the owners of the Vinoy Resort opened a newly restored modern hotel in 1992, the city of St. Petersburg delivered a great ballpark on opening day in 1998.

One of Tropicana Field's best selling points is its location in downtown St. Petersburg. It is surrounded on three sides by uncongested interstate highways and it has 7,000 on-site parking spaces and 25,000 parking spaces within a mile. In fact, in a Tampa Tribune editorial following the first week of the Rays' regular season in 1998, the newspaper concluded that the city can handle traffic. Cars moved swiftly along St. Petersburg's streets going to and coming home from the game. And there was plenty of parking.

As a testament to its accessibility and popularity with fans, Tropicana Field holds nine of the all-time top 10 NHL attendance records, the all-time Arena Football attendance record, the U.S. attendance record for Davis Cup tennis, and attendance records in Florida for the NBA and NCAA men's college basketball. Cirque du Soleil selected Tropicana Field as the location for its last two very successful touring shows to the region, and will return later this year. In 2000, Sports Travel, Inc., a sports marketing company, ranked Tropicana Field as the second most fan-friendly park in the major leagues in its 30 Ballpark Millennium Tour.

Similarly, downtown St. Petersburg may be the strongest destination on Florida's west coast, where 1.5-million people visit the Pier and 3-million people visit BayWalk each year. It is home to an internationally televised Grand Prix, art festivals, concerts in the park and museum exhibitions like the current "Monet's London" exhibition, "Diana: a Celebration," last year's Chihuly exhibition, or the blockbusters "Treasures of the Czars" and "Titanic." Indeed, in recent years, downtown St. Petersburg has emerged as one of Florida's most active entertainment destinations with more than 1,000 special events and attractions that draw nearly 10-million people annually.

The reality is that we have a great ballpark in a great location that is at the heart of the biggest and richest media market south of Atlanta. As we have seen with the Bucs and the Lightning, a winning team can generate excitement, attendance and revenue for a sports franchise in this region. We experienced a sample of the excitement Major League Baseball can bring to our community last year when the Rays had a 12-game winning streak, and drew nearly 70,000 fans for two weekday games with the New York Yankees in July.

I am confident that the Rays management and ownership intend to build a franchise that will succeed on the field. They are investing in their organization and are producing great young talent. I have heard manager Lou Piniella say on many occasions that a winning team will bring in the fans, just as it did for the Bucs and the Lightning. We all can help make this vision a reality by attending games and supporting the Rays as our home team. When we host our first playoff game, Tropicana Field will be sold out and the crowd noise from the fans cheering on the home team will provide a distinctive home-field advantage for the Rays.

Rick Baker is the mayor of St. Petersburg.

[Dr_Doesn't Have a Life]

Same 3 people on here whining about the proposed stadium in the comment section of every story in the paper. Hi, I have a life.

[JudyToo]

"Most of the people here that oppose the new Stadium don't deserve to have an MLB team in their backyard. Having a team is a privilege not a right. If this deal doesn't go through move the Team on the Tampa side of the bay."

Sal is absolutely correct - best conclusion I have read in a while! Not only do we not deserve an MLB team, we don't actually need one - it's costing us a lot of money for not much return. Yes, they might indeed find a better sucker somewhere else to put them on their corporate welfare program.

Notice that attendance is going down? Maybe, just maybe that has something to do with gas prices and food costs and foreclosures and big increases in mortgage payments? Maybe we not only don't need the Rays, but we just don't have enough spare change to be able to afford to go see them! How much for a beer and a hot dog?

Sal is right, we are not privileged. Please find someone who wants that privilege. We don't deserve them.

[Smiley]

(Dr_Doesn't Have a Life)- yea.....nice life...reading our posts! Can you read the words...YOUR AN ASSCLOWN! Now get back to you janitor job at tent city!!

[lookaround]

You don't want the stadium? Fine. Whether you like it or not, at some point public money will be used to finance a new stadium. The longer they wait, the more expensive it will be. If they put together a fair combination of private and public money then I am all for it. I love baseball, give me no cat walks, a seat with shade, a nice view of the bay, a cold beer, and life is good!

[Dr_Dug]

lookaround, you said it perfectly. Give me no cat walks, a seat with shade, a nice view of the bay, a cold beer, and life is good!
Tell that story to the working class, people who don't care about baseball or the people losing thier homes and living pay check to pay check. By the way....shade by the waterfront? The Trop has AIR CONDITIONING FOOL! And it won't cost you 450+ million for the shade!

[Tony]

No one does any reading or listening to the radio, do they? Sternburg and Silverman many times have addressed all of these concerns on both tv broadcasts and AM radio. I guess no one listens to that. This morning Silverman acknowledged the low attendance, but also realizes that it's not going to happen overnight. the team went through 10 years of losing and the GENERAL MANAGER has more realistic expectations than the GENERAL PUBLIC. That doesn't say much for public opinion. The Rays have never demanded a new stadium, they have never said they would move the team if they didn't get a new stadium. They have done extensive studies about the surrounding area. Don't throw these "environmental concerns" regarding the Trop around. These were addressed BEFORE the Trop. Read your archives in the St Pete Times. The Feds oversaw thought.

Too many people are giving the Rays crap about wanting a new stadium. Let us not forget that the City Commission from decades ago were the ones that ok'd the Trop WITHOUT having a tenant. Don't tell me about irresponsibility. The Rays didn't ask for the Trop as their home field. It was originally supposed to be for the Giants. They backed out and had AT & T Prk built. The White Sox were supposed to move here. They didn't and got a new stadium built for them. The blame the Rays for wanting a new park.

For those who want the Rays in Tampa. At what point did Tampa become the sole focal point for any professional sports team. So what if you have the Lightning, Bucs, and Storm....oh, I forgot, you have the "Tampa Yankees" too. The management of the Rays want to stay in St Pete. The city needs the revenue and being able to redevelop the Trop site and rebuild AL Lang field will do that. I don't believe the city had any plans for demolition of AL Lang once the Rays left so you would have a shell there with no tenants. If the Rays continue to do well this season I say they, and the fans, DESERVE a new stadium.

[Dr_Dug]

The Rays DID NOT address the issues. The first issue is the taxpayers don't want to pay for it. Period. I've NEVER heard them address that issue! And by the way...they have not solved the parking or road system questions. They did submit a plan but it was full of questions. Don't you listen to the Mayor? Better yet...don't you listen to the people and ALL the signs around town stating NO NEW WATERFRONT STADIUM!! We earned and deserve baseball...but not a price tag of close to a BILLION DOLLARS within 10 years to enjoy it!

[Dr_Dug]

By the way...what revenue? If baseball keeps costing millions to maintain.....then where's the revenue? Those same statements were made 10 years ago when they started the TROP.....remember? So how does moving a few blocks bring in more revenue?
And regarding the start...If St.Pete didn't recieve a franchise from Baseball....then St.Pete was willing to buy a franchise like the Giants or Sox. We were told no baseball team would come if we didn't have a stadium...so we built one...at the cost of MILLIONS. We lived up to our part and built the Trop....now they need to live up to thiers and play ball instead of BANKER!

[assclown]

Dr dung, since when do to speak for all the taxpayers? I am one and I want a new stadium.

[Dr_Dug]

Then you pay for it...assclown! And I speak for the taxpayers with an I.Q. over 50.

[assclown]

We'll see you at the polls then, dr dung. Don't forget how many of us that are not as smart as you vote. This ain't called Floriduh for nothin.

[Just an Observer]

Dr_Dug with an IQ over 50.

"Your an assclown" should actually be "You're an assclown". "You're" meaning "you are". I figure with an IQ of 51 (I guess that's technically over 50) - you should have a grasp of the basics. Sadly though while you criticize the mental acuity of others, you screwed the pooch in multiple posts above "Doc".

I have to wonder, if you can’t handle something as simple as the English language – how can we trust your (properly used) alleged “facts” regarding the stadium?

I'm sure your POWW friends are equally proud you're (properly used) representing their side. You know, with your (properly . . . never mind) grand intellect and all.

Cheers smart guy. I look forward to your troll-like flaming to follow.

[get-smart]

I laugh! Tell me that the Ray's owners are not a bunch of treasonous anti-American criminals. Even their paid shills are choking! What a joke. Everything I said is true. When you lose your house to foreclosure you know who to thank.

[Mark]

It doesn't matter if it's a good or bad deal. It doesn't matter that the new stadium is essentially a $450 million taxpayer gift to a few millionaires. This stadium will be built despite taxpayer concerns with taxpayer money. With politicians from Crist down the line for it, the fix is in.

[smallcap2000]

Order out of chaos. Every rich person makes tries to make their "order" out of the chaos they see. It doesn't matter that the chaos they see is someone ELSE's order that was made out of the chaos that went before.

The current Rays owners did not design the Trop. A bureaucrat did. If they want to put a deposit of a third of the funds needed, let them.

Build the new ballpark. Lock the team into tenancy for 50 years.

[Dave in St Pete]

Funny how a 'press conference' has morphed into a presentation to the council.I am willing to bet that this is not an accident.

I bet that there is some legal time line involved here that will 'force' the council to make a decision on this without giving us a chance to vote on it. e.g. an answer to the proposal must be given in 'x' days.

I'm telling y'all that this is part of a plan to force this unwanted and unneeded stadium on us.

[Jason]

Did anyone notice there were no homicides the weekend of the race downtown? I figured there would have been at least a dozen parking related murders.. I guess the 100k people that were there over the course of the weekend walked from their houses.

[TBone]

All you bitter complainers won't even be alive to pay for this stadium. So as you are busy sucking the life out of my social security, overwhelming health care and destroying the environment in your gas guzzling sleds; at least let me take my children to an outdoor ballpark to enjoy what we have left of this earth. Now go take your nap!

[Chris Jenkins]

Did no one here catch the fact that "Go Rays" outed himself as someone not from here, and an utter liar?

"As for parking, I go to Lightning games all the time and park Downtown & its fine. In the years leading up to opening the new stadium other new developments including parking garages will be built as well to support it."

Um...hate to break it to you, Mr. Out of Town Rays Fan who has never actually been here, but the Lightning play at the St. Pete Times Forum...in TAMPA.

The shills are thick in this group, completely unafraid to lie, mischaracterize, attack, and do whatever it takes to shut down reasonable citizen concerns. Those of you who really are citizens of St. Pete should really pay attention to what's going on here. Divide and conquer...polarization over an issue is the best way to shut down real conversation about it.

Aaron, I'm more and more disappointed everyday. You have the IP addresses. You know who is from here and who is not. You could be doing some quality control on these issues, but you don't really seem to have any motivation to do so. I don't expect you to be an Investigative Reporter, but I did expect you to at least try to somewhat preserve the quality of the conversation. Maybe that's too much to ask, too difficult a chore, given the sensitivity of some here, and the sheer volume of blatant lies and propoganda being put out by the Rays media machine (Let me assure you that pockets that deep can afford a lot of "buzz marketing". If you don't know that phrase, google it, and you'll suddenly have a much better understanding of what's going on here.)

[Jason]

In other news, I heard the Red Sox were going to move out of Boston since there's no parking for them. Did you think that maybe the lack of parking would force the city to make progress ( i know, a VERY scary word) in the public transit system? I know my opinion doesn't hold much weight around here, since I actually still have more of my life ahead of me than behind me (and a lot of money to put in the economy), and I don't use fancy phrases like "these owners should be out of town on a rail".. whatever the hell that means.. but I think that we should at least hear proposals and maybe try to figure out ideas.. ideas for parking, ideas for financing.. rather than just complain about the fancy progress that these new york city carpetbaggers want to make. Have an open mind.. you might be pleasantly surprised.. Also, you won't get a ton of comments on here from those my age.. they are at work and then after work putting money back into St. Petersburg rather than retired with nothing better to do and coming on here and posting 70 comments every single day.

[Ed Keck]

If you want to build a new ball park O K but make a dome and closer to Tampa so more people can attend the games.I live in Zepherhills and attend all the Sunday home games but it's a long way to go during the week.A bus would be nice also. Most of the people in our area are retired and do not drive late at night.
An open air stadium with no parking and my wife handicaped attending games will be out of the question.
Ed

[Chris Jenkins]

And how old are you, Jason? I'm 33, and I've managed to put a rather large number of comments on here.

Remember what your Daddy said about ASSuming?

[Jason]

I'm not too worried about this proposal being voted down.. Unless they put the city vote on the message board I doubt most of you will get out of your wheelchairs to make it there.. And even if your kids could give you a ride you'd be way to afraid there wasn't enough parking at the polls.

[Jason]

I'm 26.. Wait.. did you call me an a#$ while saying the word assuming?? ooo.. you're a witty one aren't you? Your Daddy should have been smart enough to pull out.

[Chris Jenkins]

Way TOO afraid, Jason. TOO. As long as we're assuming incorrectly, should I assume you are functionally illiterate? Not only do you make vast, sweeping, baseless assumptions, you do so without concern for spelling, while insulting all of us with concerns about the deal.

I'm 33, a technology professional, and a St. Pete home owner. 3 strikes you're out, buddy boy.

P.S. I can post here so often because I work with COMPUTERS...and they even gots interwebs on them!

[Dr. Dork]

Hey Dr Dung. Yeah, you with no life and/or job! I pay for a lot of crap that I don't want to pay for w/ my hard earned tax money. Can I choose to stop paying for welfare for bums that don't want to get up and get jobs? Oops, did that strike a nerve with you? Are you "one of them"?

At least I'm getting something out of a new stadium.

[Jason]

Are COMPUTERS bigger when you type that with capital letters? Technology professional.. thats a really nice spin on saying you fix computer problems. Maybe these guys can use you after all! That way they can spin everything else they're trying so desperately to screw us on.. I also earn a house.. I never said you didn't.. do you want a medal? Also.. can you explain the parking availability for the race? or was that just one of my baseless assumptions you talk so much about.

[Aaron T]

Aaron S. Can you shut this message board down, it's a ridiculous he said/she said, grammar lesson. It's totally out of hand and stupid. Anyone and everyone can throw bakchanded lobs at each other behind the privacy of a computer screen......this whole thing is a joke. I moved from my birthplace and home of 26 years in St. Pete to move to a real "downtown" in a different state--I hope St. Pete gets the stadium, it would be great for the city and community, people would go to games. I still go to games at the Trop when I visit, but an open air, waterfront stadium would be a destination. Make some progress in the city St. Pete, don't let me down Mayor Baker! Anyone under the age of 35 wants a new stadium, I hope it happens.

[Chris Jenkins]

Actually, Jason, I'm a Senior EDI Analyst. Since you relate technology professional to fixing computers, I won't bother trying to explain, as it would probably go over your head somewhere around "Electronic Data Transactions". The end result is that I'm used to sifting large amounts of data to find out where the bad bit is. And guess what? It's all over this deal.

I'm sure you do "earn" a house, although I'll leave that your personal business what exactly it is you do to earn it.

Were you downtown for the race, Jason? Did you see the packed areas down there, did you know that downtown business employees were displaced on Friday from their normal staff parking, and that they had delays and displacement the whole week setting up? Did you know at FWRI they had their staff park near 7th street and 1st avenue and had to shuttle them in from there, because there was no available parking?

You've seen a slide show, and swallowed some propoganda. You weren't there, obviously, or you wouldn't be trying to offer these lame responses. The slideshow was carefully crafted to show a picture they wanted you to see. Let me ask you, Jason...if there were 30,000 cars in for the race...where are shots of the full lots? Why wouldn't they include those? Why not show what the actual parking was, instead of finding a few lots outside of the main parking areas and taking pictures which may or may not have been taken in the time frame specified?

Are you this obtuse on purpose, or is it accidental?

[Chris Jenkins]

Aaron T apparently can only type, and not read as well.

Chris Jenkins: 33
Justin Elza: about the same
Mandy: 32

I don't know everyone on here, but I do know that most of my friends, who do participate here, are in their late 20's and early 30's, and tired of being screwed by typically OLDER developers.

Your perspective is bass ackwards from the truth.

[Jason]

Chris... I really don't care what you do.. so please stop telling me.. I think you've confused this with your myspace page.. If the race was so terrible for the city, why did they renew their contract to keep it here for a bunch more years? Clearly it was all bad, none of the resaurants downtown were busier because of the race.. It is funny however that you assume everything i know about the race i saw from looking at pictures on the internet.. Thats how you live your life, not mine.. I actually left the comfort of my computer chair and went to the race.. I don't even know what propaganda slide show you are talking about.. Honestly.. if thats the first thing you think of about the race, then I really feel bad for you.. Did you know you actually could go down the race and then eat in the restaurants downtown afterwards? The food was really good at the Moon Under.. too bad no one took any pictures of it and posted them online for you.

[Mike]

"Aaron, I'm more and more disappointed everyday. You have the IP addresses. You know who is from here and who is not. You could be doing some quality control on these issues, but you don't really seem to have any motivation to do so. I don't expect you to be an Investigative Reporter, but I did expect you to at least try to somewhat preserve the quality of the conversation."

Wow. Chris Jenkins wants to censor comments on a public blog? That sucks. These people are desperate to block out those who disagree with them. Your vitriol clouds your otherwise reasonable attempts to discuss the stadium. I'll tell you one thing ... comments like yours and McPhee and a couple of others have cemented my once malleable view of the stadium in support of it.

This holier-than-thou attitude of knowing what's best for us plebeians is making a lot of people sick. Could it possibly be that some people are okay with spending their tax money on the new stadium? Guess what? I want to give my money to these fellas to build the stadium. I've read the proposals and drank the kool-aid. I know, me is dum. But I like it. You don't. Whatever. But if you think that you can control discourse to curry favor, well, you scare me more than any of these millionaire out-of-towners ever could.

And please stop calling people out for being insulting while ... being insulting. "Functionally illiterate" because the guy spelled too, to? When you go to the grammar and spelling argument on the Intert00bs, you know you are desperate.

See you in November.

[Ray F]

WOW. While tooting the horn about tax money and waterfront land, they are forgetting that they are essentially trying to block my right to vote. The council isn't voting to approve the team to build the stadium, they're deciding whether to put it on the ballot for all citizens of St. Petersburg to vote.

Whether you're for or against the new stadium, you need to be for the democratic process. If this doesn't get on the ballot, POWW has effectively blocked the democratic process and St. Petersburg might as well start voting Communists into power.

Remember when Florida was trying to host the 2012 Olympics??? St. Pete was tossing money out the windows trying to schmooze the IOC and even agreed to build an Olympic diving pool. Obviously, an obscure collegiate sport was worth the millions of dollars in lobbying and construction costs, but a state of the art MLB stadium that would showcase the beautiful city of St. Petersburg to the nation 81 days of the year every single year for many many years isn't.

Glad to see the blue hairs still make decisions for me. Let it go to a vote. That's the only way we'll know who really speaks for the majority of the citizens.

[Sandy]

Chris, "technology professional"? I guess that means someone else is paying you while you're on here insulting everyone. I wonder what your employer would think of that.

[Jason]

I agree with the other comments Chris.. you really shouldn't be on here insulting people.. Insulting people is reserved for people like me, people trying to be an A@% just to rile you up.. You're actually operating under the illusion that anyone cares about what you're saying.. I'm gonna get back to looking at the propaganda slide show of the lakers game last night on espn.. I wonder what REALLY happened out there?

[Mike]

Nice one, Jason! Ostensibly, some of the opponents of the stadium are really bright folks. But they are blinded by an inexplicable hatred and it seems to feed them. It's quite sad. I appreciate their passion, but something tells me that it is all-consuming and will turn off most fence-sitters on this issue.

Check this out: I appreciate your opinions, Chris, Don, Jon, and others. They are correct for you and your value systems. But the ad hominem attacks must end. And remember, attempts to stultify debate and a potential vote are as dubious as the secrecy of the cloak-and-dagger meetings you claim the Rays and the city have engaged in.

People think differently. Embrace it. Here's why you should:

In the Madisonian Federalist papers No. 10 and No. 51, the role of dissent in a republic is clearly delineated. The only way to guard against factions, it is argued, is to have many small factions. The many factions each operate under their best interest, and oftentimes, these self-defined best interests do not dovetail. (I can think of one example presently!) But, by ideas being tempered in the flames of dissent, it is assumed that the greatest good for the greatest number will prevail. Hence, we have elections.

When you launch verbal grenades, the nobility of your cause is lost on the battlefield. Clean it up, fellas. Please.

[Chris Jenkins]

Jason, if you hadn't been so busy making false assumptions about who I am, my age, where I'm from, and what I'm about, I wouldn't have had to tell you what I do. Since the answer proved your assumptions wrong, you have to attack the statement itself. Please. First I was too old, now I'm confusing this with my MySpace page? At least be consistent in your ad hominems.

Additionally, you assume I didn't see the race, and that I only saw it from my computer, after telling you specifically about things I observed over the course of watching the race. ASSumption must be your favorite game, and you certainly don't let stated facts get in the way of it. So, you were there? Brilliant. Then why is it you had such a wrong recollection of the downtown parking and traffic situation? Which lot did you park in? Where did you sit or stand? I want to remember for next year, so I can join the magic bubble which didn't have parking issues or slow traffic as well.

Let me guess...you were on 1st ave south, in between 13th and 14th streets, holding a checkered flag, right? Personally, I ate at the Globe afterward...I'm a huge fan of their Thai Fish Wraps. Give it a shot, with extra Hoisin. P.S. You can also catch me out at Pelican, Mastry's, the Bishop, Jannus, just about any Friday or Saturday. Feel free to hit me up by email, and we can talk about it over a beer. I'll even buy the first round. Once we meet in person, you'll find that every single assumption you made on here was wrong, and maybe you'll be man enough to admit it. My email is cjenkins@flmediasolutions.com. Use it. Any of you. You're all sitting behind your keyboards, doing what you accuse me of, and I have to laugh at how obtuse it all is. Come see me in person. Let's meet like people do. Then maybe you won't have such a polarized perspective.

Nice try, Mike.

A: I didn't ask to censor anyone. I suggested that the quality of discourse was failing by people who were obviously making crap up, as demonstrated. There are obvious terms of service violations in the impersonations and fabrications that are occurring here. The rules of the board are on the left. Move your eyes four inches in that direction, and you'll see them. They are being violated, and no one cares. Good moderation is key to any succesful public forum. That's not censorship, but way to use hyperbole to support an otherwise baseless and factless point.

B: I've said over and over again I'm ready for it to go to a vote, encourage such, ask for it. I'm ready for democracy to have its day. I've never once said don't take it to a vote. I have repeatedly said I can't wait til that day. You are another straw man debater, making up your own position for those who disagree with you, and attacking it quite viciously. Careful with that, the hay leaves you itchy for days.

C: I didn't call him functionally illiterate. I asked if I should ASSume he was, based on all the false and baseless assumption going on. Once again, if you actually ready my posts, instead of scanning for the keywords, you wouldn't sound so ignorant as to what I've said when replying. Feel free to read back through.

Yep, see you in November!

Ray F, believe it or not, I agree with you. Let's vote on it!

Sandy, you apparently didn't get past my job in order to actually read my point, on this, or any of the hundreds of other posts I have on here. Check again, no insults present. Some tongue in cheek witticisms, but not even matching the level of vitriol pumped out by Jason in his "old people in wheelchairs make me sick" postings...and since I'm a self employed contractor, my employer thinks it rocks! Feel free to shoot him an email complaining. cjenkins@flmediasolutions.com

To Fake Jason at the end there, that's pretty funny, but I think the double standard about "insulting people" has been pretty clear in all the months we've participated here. Believe me, anyone who actually took the time to read through everything here and on TroxBlog can see where the vitriol and abuse comes from, and it's predominantly from the folks who would suggest anyone against a stadium deal that doesn't include hard facts and rock solid guarantees to the citizens is somehow anti-american.

Nice try, buzz-marketers! You've provided an amusing morning. Tell Sternberg, Kalt and the boys that if they want some real grass roots buzz marketing, give me a call. I'm a lot more expensive than some of the rank amateurs on here, but hey, you get what you pay for.

[Chris Jenkins]

Considering Mike that your side includes Thor, it's clear that in your attempts at Madisonian politicking, you haven't actually been paying attention to the conversation. Hell, you even ignored Jason's anti-old and handicapped people rant.

Nice try, my man, but pay attention to what's going on before commenting, and you might not sound so ignorant.

[The Great Karmack]

The Great Karmack sees the future. The NY city slickers will put on their smoke & mirrors show, and convince our beloved city council to allow a referendum on this year's ballot, which will be defeated by the residents by a 40+ point margin. And it will take nearly a year to remove & recycle all those red "no new stadium" signs.

And after next year's citywide elections, the council members who supported this boondoggle will be either selling shoes at Peltz or proud new owner/operators of hot dog stands on Central Ave.

And the Rays will remain in the attendence cellar of MLB, averaging less than 18,000 fans a game, regardless of standings, until they buy out their lease and move the team to Orlando in 2010.

The Great Karmack has spoken.

[darrick]

Ball Parks are supposed to be downtown. What is up with all the parking rants. There is ample parking everywhere down there is walking 5 blocks going to kill people.

[Jason]

Umm.. you're the one that ASSumed (if that word was a woman I'd afraid you'd stalk her) that I got all my info about the race from an internet slide show.. I had no problems finding parking right around Courigans.. there were 2 spots next to each other.. I wonder how those other people got there? I must have missed the newspaper articles that mentioned everyone parked 35 blocks from the race and flew in on jet packs. Also.. you need to keep your posts shorter.. I lost interest halfway through (a phenomenon not unlike that experienced by women you date) and started using your email to sign up for midget porn websites. Enjoy!!

[Mike]

It's not "my side". I don't collaborate with any of the people who support the stadium. I care as little about them as I do about you. However, in paying quite a bit of attention to the message boards, I see bullying and a bit of hypocrisy. I think both sides stink of poo. But you are a chat board bully who thinks he is beyond reproach. Making ASSumptions is something you appear to be good at too. Buzz marketers? Nice. Anybody who supports the stadium is being paid by Sternberg? C'mon, man. That epitomizes the straw man analogy you so vociferously accuse everybody else of. But you can't see that. Your ego is so large as to be overwhelming even in the seemingly limitless bounds of the WWW. Good for you. That is impressive.

Get over yourself.

This board has officially become a wasteland, in my humble opinion. I'm out. Save your reply. You have won, if you define winning as quelling debate and turning off would-be debaters from engaging. This is a childish and immature exercise and I have much bigger fish to fry.

Yawn.

[Chris Jenkins]

Brilliant Jason, proved my point perfectly. No substance, only pathetic attempts at personal attacks, and an attention span which ends at one paragraph. They make Adderol for that, check it out!

Mike, same goes for you, mate. You felt not the slightest bit pretentious in quoting founding fathers, and yet find MY ego boundless? Brilliant. At least you were honest enough to mention the hypocrisy.

Face to face, gents. Let's round table it in person. No typing, no paragraphs too long for short attention spans, and cold beer all around! Saturday night, 7PM, start at the Globe for a light dinner and an awesome Sangria, and then hoof it down to the landing for a pub crawl and mobile discussion of the finer points? If you all are firm believers, who actually want to know the facts about who they are talking to, then put your money where your mouth is, find out how wrong your assumptions are, and let's hash this out in person. I know Gary Grooms said he would come. What say you?

[Jim]

You know what I don't understand? POWW's contention that this is a "ploy" to move the team to Orlando. Believe it or not, Orlando's a smaller market than the Bay Area, so if they're trying to increase attendance, why would they go to an area with less people to attract? The logic just doesn't add up.

Do I believe they'll move if they don't get a new stadium? Perhaps, but after the Trop's paid off. There's no city anywhere in North America that would build a new stadium AND pay off one in a city they have no interest in.

Am I saying we should build a new stadium to keep them here? By no means no, because there's always other teams to root for. We should build the stadium to help bring Campbell Park and the old Gas Plant District back from the doldrums and help reconnect that part of the city that was cut off by the moat of parking around the Trop fortress. Putting it in a spot that has been baseball for almost a century when the land is available and not being used for any other purpose is the most logical plan. Choosing land that has to be purchased by the City (since the City would own the stadium; very few sports teams own their own stadium), like across from Derby Lane, is even worse financial planning. Building on a landfill (like Toytown) is an environmental nightmare (worse than filling in a portion of the Bay much smaller than your neighborhood Wal-Mart) with all the cleanup required.

The City owns the land, it will serve no other purpose in the foreseeable future (no MLB team can be attracted to the site for spring training because they all want new facilities, not one w/40+/- year old grandstands...unless you want your tax money to be used toward rebuilding that one, and I can assure you the Rays won't chip in $150M for that), and it condenses 86 acres of sports in Downtown to 10+/- acres. The financing will be talked about today, but if it goes as I think it will (mainly currently levied taxes, like the Bed Tax or Penny for Pinellas, but none from property taxes), I'm very confident that the people of this City will realize the value of this project in November and it will get built. It'll be bittersweet to see the Trop go, because I agree it's a fairly nice stadium, but it's time for the Trop land to give back to the community, instead of your property taxes contributing to the Trop.

[Jason]

HAHA!! Its Adderall! You spelled a word wrong you dummy!! I'd meet you there but I'd be waiting for forever since you wouldn't be able to find a parking spot.. that and I'd rather shoot myself than spend a Saturday night with you. I do think its cute though that you're trying to make friends through a message board..

[Chris Jenkins]

I bow to your superior knowledge of prescription pharmaceuticals required for people with attention span problems. I stand humbly corrected.

Parking is just fine downtown when there's not a massive event, but obviously, context is completely lost on you.

And of course, now we are showing who it is who is scared to come out from behind their keyboard. Back to MySpace with you, Adderall-Boy.

Anyone else feel like having a real life conversation about it, and having their false presumptions about me challenged? Or is the hypocrisy and fear of stepping out from the protective glare of your screens too much?

[Jason]

Context isn't lost one me Chris.. Im just making fun of you.. If you're took stupid to figure that out then what is the point of a meeting? I've met a lot of stupid people in my life.. I don't often go to dinner with them. Also.. I'm going get away from the computer and go to the game today.. Kazmir (he's a really good pitcher) is getting the start today. Also, tell your mom to be in our section today around the 6th inning.. When someone spots her, I'll win a free Chik-fil-a sandwich.

[John]

Jim, the Penny for Pinellas will NEVER be used for corporate welfare. Understand that. And the hotel/bed tax is about to take a dramatic dive because we've lost a huge tourist draw this year in spring training going bye-bye (thanks to your Rays). Not to mention the loss of hotel/motel rooms to condos on the beaches.

Home builders are going out of business left and right, Pinellas has the largest inventory of vacant homes in decades, and you honestly believe adding 2000-4000 more homes and trinket shops to a rough part of town (with unknown levels of contamination, capped by ashpalt) is actually going to succeed? Seriously?

Even the wise condo developers have put the brakes on the building boom in both downtown St. Pete and Tampa. Did you read the Times story last week about the guy that lives in a brand new 20 story Channelside condo, who has 5 neighbors? The rest of the building is empty! What are you people smoking??

Whether you want to face reality or not, the majority citizens of this town are smarter than that. They don't see the benefit of subsidizing a for-profit corporation to develop one of the last city-owned parcels of waterfront land on a proposal. We've been duped before with the Trop and the wasteland that surrounds it. Would YOU want to live next door to 3 interstate highways, 16 blocks from the "real action" downtown, always wondering if the land your townhouse was built on is not toxic? And would you pay in excess of 200 large for that chance? I know my answer. I dare you to walk south on MLK past the Trop property into the Campbell Park area after 8pm on a Saturday night. I dare you. Why does Campbell Park Elementry look more like a high-security detention facility than an elementry school?? Why is that? It's just across the street from your new townhome, remember that. The whole thing is a farce. Just like the dreams of MLB & the Trop were 20 years ago of "awakening" that part of town. Didn't happen then and it won't happen now.

[Yes to Stadium]

Chris Jenkins
I would really enjoy sitting down with you on Saturday night. Where do you want to meet? I cant wait!

[Chris Jenkins]

Yes..."one took stupid". Got it. That makes perfect sense. Thanks, Jason! Nice to see that the string of ad hominems is uninterrupted by anything vaguely resembling a point, facts, or understandable English. Is that a side effect of the Adderall? Thank you for disqualifying yourself as someone whose opinion matters.

[Paul]

So someone explain it to me like I'm a 6 yr old. How did the most powerful businessmen on Wall Street not realize there was a scheduling conflict with a public city council until just hours before they are supposed to meet?

Smells fishy. Could it be that those who made plans to attend and moved around their personal lives were cut off at the pass... so they would very unlikely be able to attend on the next day?

[Chris Jenkins]

Hi Yes to Stadium! My suggestion earlier was meeting at 7PM at The Globe (5th St and 1st Ave N), having some food and a couple of beers, and then walking to Jannus from there and making the rounds from Pelican, Mastry's, Bishop, etc. Should give a good opportunity to discuss the issues, including the things we see and are concerned about for the downtown area. I'll kick together a little tabletop sign so people know where to sit down, and grab some cheapo sticky name tags for anyone who cares to show up.

Given that face to face conversations seem to be a bit more polite than this medium, I bet we'll all find we're a little nicer to each other, and actually talk about the points of concern, rather than just flinging dung. Of course, that might change if Jason shows up. ;) Kidding, kidding.

[Yes to Stadium]

John
"And the hotel/bed tax is about to take a dramatic dive because we've lost a huge tourist draw this year in spring training going bye-bye (thanks to your Rays)."
Are you serious? Huge Tourist draw? Do you realize that the Phillies and Blue Jays are still training in our county?
I have tickets to every home Rays spring training game, I would bet to say that 90% of the 3,000 people in that stadium are from St. Pete or Tampa. So please don't say that that is the reason the Hotel/Bed tax is about to take a dramatic dive!

[Jason]

if you had a sense of humor you'd at least laugh that i called your mom a cow.. but of course you point out typos instead.. really you can't figure out what i meant when i said that.. you have no idea? really? your powers of deduction are phenonemal. see.. when i said took i must have accidentlly hit the k at the end and it spelled took.. i meant too.. take a tylenol, take a nap, then read it again and get back to me.

[Chris Jenkins]

Jason, suggestion: Type your posts into Microsoft Word, and look for the little colored squiggly lines. Those lines mean you are not typing words in English, and they may need some attention.

Haha, Jason called my Mom a cow! Chortle, snicker, snort! He's daring AND funny! Oh that Jason, what a card!

Better?

[Jason]

And you guys won't need a sign to find him.. just listen to the guy that uses ASSumes with the stress on the first syllable.. and the words obtuse and ad hominems every 6 sentences.. but be warned.. if you mispeak, your opinion will matter less than his.

[Chris Jenkins]

Don't worry, Jason, I'll wear a second name tag just for you that says "That A-Hole from online who makes me so mad, waah!".

[Don Mott]

Paul@12:34, It smells like dead mullet. The meeting is still today they moved it to 3PM at the City Council chambers where there will be little to no room for the public. I for one don't believe for a moment there was a scheduling conflict.

[Chris Jenkins]

Jeez, I really am starting to sink below my normal level. It just gets too distracting when the poo flingers come along...my joi de guerre kicks in, and I lose my focus. (Thanks to Trox for joi de guerre, love it!)

Enough return fire poo flinging from me. I've stooped low enough. Call my Mom a cow some more, tell me my girlfriend isn't interested, and my posts are boring, whatever.

We still need to have an honest dialogue about this issue, and I would like to round table that in person, so, the plan is set, and listed above, and any and all from every perspective is welcome.

[John]

Yes to Stadium, you asked all 3,000 people at Al Lang where they were from? Or is that just your biased speculation? Sounds like the latter to me. Go ask the owners of the mom & pop motels on the south county beaches for their opinion, compare their reservation logs between last year and next year for the block of time that spans spring training. Stop spreading your nonsensical "speculations", hit the freaking bricks and do some objective research for a change. Oh and join your friend Jim on that Saturday night walk through neighboring Campbell Park while you're at it. See how that works out for ya.

Oh and also please ask the city council why they're threatening to raise fees to major downtown (waterfront!!) event organizers (most of which are non-profit, charity driven) throughout the year because they can no longer afford to pay for city-related serices that support those events; money which comes in part from the bed tax! Why is the organizer of Blues Fest threatening to leave town if this happens?

But noooo, spring training for decades in this city had absolutely no effect on the bed tax, tourist $$$, or the economic health of this city. You've had too much kool-aid, my friend.

Forget Spring Training, Blues Fest, Taste of Pinellas, Mainsail Arts, SPIFFS, First Night, First Friday, etc etc etc, we don't need those silly events here...let's instead give all that taxpayer (tourists are taxpayers too) money for another stadium so 13,000 Rays fans per game can look at the water in the dark. You make perfect sense.

[Build It]

& We shall / will come with $ to spend on our beautiful waterfront. Downtown will boom with foot traffic, that is irreplaceable, nothing else will bring the impact this new stadium would, so I hope they do what's in the best interest for all of St. Pete, Pinellas County, and entire Bay Area. Gotta go finish my lunch b/c a couple of co-workers & I are leaving work and going directly to Trop watch the Rays spank the Hanks to take the series and remain in 1st Place in the AL East.

Let Us Vote & it will get built. L8R & happy hump day in the bay.

[Paul]

Thanks Don for the clarification. I didn't see the article was written on the 14th with 'tommorow' in it... would be nice if dates and times were used instead of generalizations like 'tommorrow'.

I'm going to watch it on tv today May 15th at 3pm eastern time. Should be interesting.

ohh, one last thing. no new stadium on our waterfront. (had to throw that in).

[Jim]

The Penny's never used for "corporate welfare"? You think that supporting airports and a congested bridge are not "corporate welfare"? If any type of infrastructure is bleeding money, why would a government continue to dump money into it to make improvements instead of closing it down and saving money? To keep corporate bigwigs and people of means happy. Hence the point of Albert Whitted Field. I know I can't afford to own a plane (nor can I afford lessons, or do I know anyone who can), so I'll never fly out of there, but it was kept open by the voters of this city to keep the privileged few happy at the expense of the vast majority low- to mid-income people like myself. According to the City's budget (seen here:http://www.stpete.org/pdf/CSP_Budget%20Document%20FY08_FINAL.pdf ), we are spending $1,391,000 this year, up 4% from last year, to keep it running. Almost $1.4M, and it STILL needed the Penny to build a new terminal; that shows how much money it loses every year, but the City and County still give what you would constitute as "corporate welfare" (a place ready accessible to the public, but not used by everything; I mean, I assume that's the definition since you're applying it to a City-owned stadium that anyone can go to), and guess what: it was approved by the voters.

If I had my way, Albert Whitted would be razed, the stadium built there, and leave enough room for the IndyCar race to continue around the stadium. But, alas, the wealthy gray-hairs of 1 Beach Dr got their way then, and I'm afraid they'll get their way now, too. I mean, they're barking pretty loud here. But, thankfully, I'm seeing more and more signs pop-up either supporting the stadium or providing a very profound, yet simple message everyone should be able to agree on, no matter what side you're on: "Let Us Vote!"

[Don Mott]

Build It, You're comment is somewhat of an oxymoron. You say the new stadium will bring foot traffic downtown yet you are going straight to the game. That is exactly what most people do. Why are you not going to Fergs or some of the other downtown destinations to eat, shop and spread the wealth that is so often promised? Don't have enough time?

[John]

Oh and "Build It", yesterday was hump day. Today is Thursday. Unleass you meant "hump day" as it refers to what the Rays ownership group is going to do on the legs of our city council members today at the nearly private hastily re-scheduled "meeting" that was supposed to be open to all??

And go directly to the game. Do not stop and shop, do not patronize local business, just go directly to the game and them home. Hypocrisy defined.

[Paul]

Jim, no point in kicking around points on Albert Whitted Airport.. After all, us citizens did exactly what you want to do: vote. We voted down removing the historical birthplace of commercial aviation by a 75% 'keep it an airport forever' vote, if I recall correctly. The airport is not just for a few people. You can take helicopter or plane lessons there. The news choppers fly out of there. The medical helicopters fly out of there.

Anyhow, Al Lang is also a historical place that has had the plug pulled on it, and we didn't get to vote on that, now did we? No one asked me if I thought 90 years of spring training should be killed. How sad.

However, we did have this vision project and we did ask Council to make it a park, and Council said 'yes', a few times actually... so fine, lets all vote on this again because wow, seems like all that work on visioning, the work done by the neighborhood associations and the work done by the downtown business association, all of which have asked for Al Lang to now be a park... well that just didn't count. So do over. there you go. If the red signs throughout the City are any indication of how this vote will go, I'm predicting yet another landslide 'no' vote on building anything on Al Lang, other than, you guessed it, a waterfront park.

[Yes to Stadium]

John
Would you like to walk with me through Campbell park at night? I have no problems doing it. Its really not that bad. We can stop by Jordan park right after that. We can see how that works for me.
John i have hit the "Brinks" I am the type of Guy that asks people their opinion on a lot of topics. For the past month i have eaten downtown Gone to alot of bars and concerts. I have stopped in at the little shops on beach and central ave to see how they feel. For these reasons.
1. To see how hard it is to park. (I admit that when there is a concert at Jannus its hard to find a place to park for free within a block of the venue!)
2. Ask owners/managers of the bars and restaurants and shops what they think of the "purposed" stadium and the problems with parking.
3. I am really interested in buying an old building downtown so i can turn it into a bar and make money off the people that are coming downtown these days. I have the money and the backing i am just trying to find the best spot.
John i don't want all those great events to go away. I think they are awesome! I just don't think spring training at Al Lang is that big of a Money maker.

John i suggest that you start thinking about doing the same thing. From what i have heard from those businesses that i have spoken with, They want the Stadium. They want the Revenue. To them if there taxes go up because of it. I might as well make more money. I have talked to most of the businesses in downtown and most are for the stadium. If i had to put a percentage on it i would say 85% pro 10% no 5% want to hear the final details before they say anything. Remember that is Bars/Restaurants/and small businesses.

I understand that people don't want it. I really do. I understand what they are saying. I just think everyone should wait to hear what the Rays say today.

[Dave]

Could I please have an air conditioned dome with a retractable roof,on the water, within ten minutes of everyone's home in central Florida, with its own interstate exit, an air-conditioned parking garage, with $.99 hotdogs, $5 tickets, and free beer that doesn't cost a penny for taxpayers? I bet we'll still have complainers! Why don't you listen to what is proposed, THEN make up your mind if you want it or not. It's OK if you hate baseball and don't want a new stadium, but enough with all the emotional, cynical outbusts! At least the ownership group is proactive in attempting to improve their product while at the same time hoping to create growth in St. Pete- an area that has a long history of stagnant downtown and mid-town areas. I'm as cheap as the rest of you, but let's see if they have a workable plan to improve things before you run them out of town!

[Freeplug.com]

From Chris Jenkins website:
"Flying Leap Media Solutions provides creative methods for establishing a web presence and/or brand awareness for your product, organization, or idea. Our advanced guerilla marketing campaigns are ideally suited to high resistance demographics, and can be planned and executed with a high level of discretion for clients requiring a degree of separation."

So were you hired by POWW, or are you just plugging your business?

[Jim]

And I was one of the 25% who saw no value in throwing away my property taxes for the elitists of this City. Like I said, I can't afford to do anything with Albert Whitted. If I'm going to pay for something, I want to pay for something I can enjoy, not look at from afar. And while you're right, I can go there if I want, the people of St. Pete can go to a new stadium if they want to as well. And I think a lot more than the 100K +/- (according to the FAA's website, BTW) that used Albert Whitted last year would use the stadium any given year. I don't know about you, but I want my money to go to programs I can personally enjoy, not watch others enjoy them on my dime.

[Don Mott]

Hey Jim@1:22, Can you direct me to the page you saw those numbers on. The only numbers I saw were $506,000 for '07 and $490,000 for '08. I will admit I didn't take the time to go through every page since it is quite lengthy. Could you direct me to those numbers?

[Thomas]

"while at the same time hoping to create growth in St. Pete"

It would be just a hope.

I think we all know what happened to the promises of "growth" when the Trop was built.

Please tell me you're smart enough not to fall for that old gag!

[Chris Jenkins]

"From Chris Jenkins website:
"Flying Leap Media Solutions provides creative methods for establishing a web presence and/or brand awareness for your product, organization, or idea. Our advanced guerilla marketing campaigns are ideally suited to high resistance demographics, and can be planned and executed with a high level of discretion for clients requiring a degree of separation."

So were you hired by POWW, or are you just plugging your business?"

Nope, just providing an email address for contact, but thanks for pulling the domain off, checking it out, and plugging my business! It would have been crass for me to do it.

And nope. I didn't even get to build POWW's website, which is my favorite part of the job. All I have with POWW is a yard sign, and my bank account will testify to that.

However, like I said....Kalt, Sternberg, give me a call, buds. I can buzz with the best of them.

[Don Mott]

By the way Jim are you confusing the Penny for Pinellas with the 1% bed tax referenced above?

[Jim]

Don, you're right, I forgot to put the PDF page number...my apologies: p. L-16 of the document, (p 215 if you use the Adobe page numbers). Hope that helps!

[Paul]

Jim, this is about Al Lang field, the Trop and the boondoggle idea that will be pitched in an hour or so. We already voted on Albert Whitted. I can't afford to do alot of things I'd like to do either. Its an airport. There's no 'do over on the do over on the do over'. Its done. Sorry you don't like the airport. Glad to hear you voted, not enough people do these days.

Luckily, I can watch the tv today during the Rays financial plan presentation. I just hope I don't throw the tv out the window at what I'll hear.

[Jim]

No, I realize they're 2 different things. I wouldn't mind either going toward the stadium, seeing as the Bed Tax already go towards the Trop. As long as it's not property tax-based nor raising any other taxes, I'm cool with it!

[Ryan]

So does anyone who is against the stadium have a problem with it if the Rays pay for the whole thing? I know they prob aren't but I was just wondering.

[Jim]

You're missing the point I'm making, Paul. I'm saying if we're willing to spend property tax money on a luxury for the few, why can't we spend already-collected money on a venue for the masses?

[Chris Jenkins]

Actually, Ryan, if the Rays were going to pay for the whole thing, front to back, all my concerns vanish. There is no taxpayer hook for unexpected costs, and they would be the sole entity responsible for environmental mitigation. In fact, I would go so far as to say I would be ok with a city tax funded improvement in relevant infrastructure to go hand in hand with it...a parking complex, and a local people mover (a la Miami's Metro Mover). That would be REAL downtown revitalization in ways which matter to everyone, not just the baseball fans.

[homer]

If we replace the ballpark currently on the waterfront with another ballpark, it will ruin downtown. And who wants to go to baseball games outdoors in Florida?? It's way, way, way too hot. Only crazy people would be outside in such weather. Instead, we should turn the site into a park so people can enjoy the beautiful weather! Or, better yet, the site should be half park and half parking lot, so we won't have walk very far through the terrible heat to get to the park and enjoy the outdoors!

Also, I can't believe how anti-environment these pro-stadium idiots are! Don't they realize that the seawall should stay right where it is now, where God created it? Altering the natural splendor of the Bayshore Drive seawall by Demens Landing? Who are we to play God in such a way? Also, we wouldn't want to do anything that might alter the course of every environmentalist's favorite st. pete tradtition: the grand prix!

Anyway, even though downtown is pretty much prefect as it is now (awesome attractions like baywalk), you would have to be a total nutjob to venture down near the waterfront in the first place. It's way too dangerous and there's nowhere to park! The neighborhood should be for Bayshore Tower residents and homeless people only! If 30,000 morons all come downtown on a weeknight, every one of them is likely to have their search for a parking spot come to an end only when they are either murdered in their car by some teenage ruffian near baywalk (waaaaay too crowded/too much traffic, by the way. big mistake for downtown.) or die of heatstroke. The only reasonable answer is an empty park next to a traffic-free parking lot on the waterfront for everyone to enjoy!

[Chris Jenkins]

*Dying laughing*

Homer, I nominate your post for funniest of the day. We obviously have different perspectives on the situation, but that was some grade A sarcasm, which I always appreciate. Well done. :^D

[Bill]

Yes to Stadium. I don't believe we've met. I happen to be one of those bar owners. I dropped my life savings into a bar on Central Ave based on past promises by the city and the "Devil Rays", of the tens of thousands of glorious baseball fans who'd likely PREFER "parking in downtown garages and walking the promenade of Central Ave to their destination, the Florida Suncoast Dome, stopping on the way to patronize the restaraunts and bars that would line the entire way". It was all good-hearted "hope and speculation". And it didn't work. Just as it is now in reverse. Except this time our waterfront is at stake. This isn't about baseball haters vs. baseball fans. It's not about dividing the residents of the city. It's about people who have either spent their lives here or chose to move here in large part because of all those great downtwon events, and wide-open waterfront vistas. It's about wanting to be a major league market, yet putting a new stadium in an even less-accessible location for ALL the fans and ALL the potential fans is a fantasy. Listen to the posters on here who love baseball and love the Rays who happen to live more than 20 minutes away. They have no interest in coming to St. Pete as a weeknight "destination" 81 times a year; they want easy access and reasonable driving distances to see a freaking live baseball game!!! without going broke on $4.00 a gallon gas to get there from New Tampa, Bradenton, Riverview, Port Richey, etc...and then a 20 minute walk after hunting for parking! The Rays want more fans. Fine. Put the stadium in a central, easy to access location either in Pinellas or Hillsborough. Isn't that what this is REALLY all about? St. Petersburg will survive, trust me. Redevelop the Trop with either high-tech manufacuring, medical services or financial (NOT more housing), put the new tax $$ it generates back on our tax rolls, perhaps use some of it to refresh Al Lang and lure a new spring training team and move on.

Mark my words, if it goes to referendum you will hear the voices loud and clear, it will never happen. And I'm OK with a vote, but the secrecy and last-minute public hearing cancellations need to stop.

[Chris Jenkins]

Bravo, Bill. Well stated.

[Paul]

Jim, I don't see the airport as a luxury for the few. I see it as critical and beneficial infrastructure. Coast Guard, medical choppers, news choppers, a landing strip if we get hit by a hurrican (for relief supplies) and ... in the future planes will likely get smaller and more cost effective, potential is there for wider access to flight. Once you get rid of an airport, you can't get one back. By the way, go check out the cool park that was built next to the airport, it has spectacular views of the water and the planes, and best of all, its free!

I see the Rays stadium on the waterfront as a luxury item for millionaire team owners and players. One which I have no interest in. I am not a sports fan. I like sports, playing them, not watching. Not saying sports teams/games are bad, I just am not a fan.

Ryan, yes, I have a huge problem with a mega stadium on the waterfront regardless of who foots the bill. The waterfront, in my opinion, should be as open and accessible by everyone and anyone who wants to sit, walk, jog, bike ride or fly a kite in an incredible place. That was a vision that was established back in the 1920's by Snell and Williams, and a vision that was proposed to Council, which they agreed to... sort of. Well then they changed their 'glitch ordinance' minds.

A new, fully funded by the Rays, stadium on the land/Trop they already use is quite fine by me. I really see this waterfront push as a tactic to boost the teams value so it can be sold for massive profit at zero cost to the teams owners. The waterfront just isn't for commercial purposes. Its been a battle since the last major land boom in the 1920's and I'm sure it will continue to be a battle in the future. I for one, am willing to be a vocal pain in the butt and voice my opinion to preserve the waterfront for the park system.

[Yes to Stadium]

Bill
Which Bar do you own? I would like to know. Nothing personal just trying to complete my study.
I thing though Bill. Have you seen all the new Bars and Restaurants? Do you realize they are packed every friday and saturday night? According to most of those people its like that during the week also.

[jtb]

bill,

there is an important difference between the trop and the proposed downtown stadium when it comes to the pedestrian traffic and neighborhood you were promised. it is essentially one of urbanist vs. anti-urban design. when you drop an anti-urban spaceship like the trop into the middle of a city, all pedestrian traffic around it withers up and dies (the trop is anti-urban because it destroyed the street grid system in favor of acres and acres of adjacent sun-scorched parking lots that have to be crossed in one way or another to reach the stadium). the trop is designed in such a way that it absolutely necessitates any reasonable person getting in a car, exiting an interstate, driving into and out of a parking lot adjacent to the stadium and promptly exiting the neighborhood via interstate. it is, by its design, a neighborhood killer.

the downtown stadium, by decentralizing and diffusing parking, necessitates the exact opposite of the trop. it forces people to park and walk through a neighborhood, not a parking lot. this, by design, increases pedestrian traffic as opposed to greatly reducing it as the trop does. and businesses along these pedestrian routes between the several smaller scattered parking lots and the stadium will certainly benefit.

[Freeplug.com]

Chris Jenkins, the POWW group in which you promote has accused the Rays of being deceptive and misleading. Your company markets itself as employing "guerilla marketing campaigns." I googled this term and found the following definition:

"Guerrilla Marketing, is an unconventional way of performing promotional activities on a very low budget. Such promotions are sometimes designed so that the target audience is left unaware they have been marketed to and may therefore be a form of undercover marketing (also called stealth marketing). The ethics of guerrilla marketing have often been called into question due to an alleged deceptive, misleading, or subtle nature of the campaigns."

Let's be upfront with your agenda, please.

[Chris Jenkins]

jtb, you're the first in all of these posts to posit that difference. It's something to think about. I'm going to have to chew on that a bit. I think it might have some validity to it.

[Chris Jenkins]

Nice try, FreePlug. I am upfront with my agenda. Honest conversation about the reasonable points of concern, with the understanding that if all these points could be suitably addressed, then play ball!

Guerilla marketing covers all sorts of fronts, and all types of methods, but I've got no disclaimer and no conflict of interest here as I'm not on anyone's payroll. It IS, however, why I recognize the buzz marketers in the mix...takes one to know one and all.

So, feel free to try to lob a discredit ball...turnabout is certainly fair play. It doesn't change the FACTS which I keep bringing up over and over again. I could be Adolf Hitler and still be right about the facts.

[Paul]

so jtb, are you saying if we redesign the parking at the existing Trop, by perhaps building a few buildings on the existing parking areas.... and moving some of the cars over to vacant lots on Central and 1st ave north... there would be vitality? Sounds great! Sounds cost effective! Let's redesign the parking layout at the Trop to maximize foot traffic on Central. Problem solved, waterfront saved, someone call Council and reschedule the meeting, again. Nah, just cancel that meeting all together.