So I went for a walk this afternoon ...

So I decided to go for a walk today after lunch. And as I was walking, I decided to test the Rays' parking circle map that's shown above. I walked to the Coliseum (It's marked on this map by the green lot right at the edge of I-375) and decided to time my walk to the new stadium.

By the Rays' math, it should be at a maximum 25 minutes. I started west on 5th Avenue N and  crisscrossed to Al Lang based on the walk signs I hit at each intersection. Near BayWalk, I stopped for a minute to take a call on my cell phone, and also hit the ATM.

I didn't walk fast, but I did work up a bit of a sweat in the afternoon sun. Anyway, the total walk took me between 16 and 17 minutes. I then walked back to the Times' offices, which is on First Avenue S and Fourth Street. The Rays' map suggests that walk should take between 10 and 15 minutes. It took me five minutes.

BIG NOTE: Before anyone decides to jump all over me, I'm not saying the experience of me is in any way "proof" people will walk from the Coliseum or other points more than 1/2 mile from the stadium. Maybe I walk faster than most people, or maybe I'm in better health. I don't know. I just thought it was interesting, and worth sharing.

City officials, as you may recall, have said that the Rays cannot count any parking spaces more than 1/2 a mile from the stadium as part of their potential inventory. (That's all of the spaces beyond the second circle).

Comments

[Jo Anne]

Aaron,
Very interesting and informative.

I do have a question though. Could you direct me to the Times article in today's paper on the Pinellas County Commission's meeting yesterday with the Ray's people? I was interested in what the county's thoughts were on the Rays' proposal.
I looked but couldn't find it in the paper and you only very briefly mentioned it in your blog.

Thanks!

[Aaron Sharockman]

Hi Jo Anne.

We did not have room for a story about the county meeting in our paper, sorry. My colleague, Will Van Sant, is working on a broader piece about the county and its involvement, however. When that's finished, I'll be sure to post that here.

As for yesterday's meeting, I will say that county commissioners had many of the same questions that you all have had (about the enviroment, about parking, about the timing of all this). The county commission, particularly also was interested in knowing how and if the trop redevelopment might compete with the redevelopment the county is pursuing at Toytown. And also there appeared to be some angst expressed by the county toward the city.

It seems this stadium debate has the potential to turn into another city-county squabble.

On the matter at hand, the county said it would probably decide in July whether or not to extend the 1 percent bed tax for the Rays. The Rays have a meeting scheduled with the Tourist Development Council on June 11.

[Dave]

>> We did not have room for a story about the county meeting in our paper, sorry. <<

Oh Please.....So there is no room left in the redesigned Times to actually print relevant news.

This is so sad.

[A real city supporter]

Come on Aaron.

Try taking into consideration the kaos created by a cazillion folks trying to park everywhere, people walking and crossing everywhere, older citizens slowing down the walking process, police holding pedestrians up at intersections to let cars through, throngs of folks going every which way and see if your timed walked remains the same.

In your senario the number of folks and cars in your way is minimal. Consider that, on a game day, the closer you would get to the stadium the more compressed the number of cars will be and the number of people will be on sidewalks that do not expand. Compression of the crowds while walking tend to move slower due to the compression and based upon the slowest walkers in the crowd.

Please test it under relevant conditions if you want to convince me. Otherwise you are just sugar coating the Rays assumptions.

Facts please or nothing at all.

[Bob]

And don't forget to factor in the faster pace of your walk downtown if you're being victimized by some of those youth that ruined Christmas night at Baywalk with their rioting. Thanks to Mayor Baker there is no shortage of criminal in this city and they will enjoy victimizing the baseball fans walking to and from the giant lightning rod on the bay.

[gary grooms]

Car traffic on Aaron's route would not be a factor in slowing him down on a game day. Mostly because he said he crossed intersections with the lights. Also, as you get closer to the water the car traffic won't be bumper to bumper because there is a limited number of spaces between the water and 2nd street. People continue to envision that every single car will drive right to the front door of the stadium. It's not how it's done now and it certainly won't be how it would be done in a highly dispersed parking plan.

However, the additional foot traffic would most likely add 10 to 20% to his time. Those times are pretty quick - Aaron must walk briskly. I think it illustrates that the time estimates provided should work on a game day - even by a person who walks slower than average.

[Chuck]

It's a very simple cause and effect relationship, Aaron. If we build the new stadium, the number of bums ERRRR - "cultural street performers" will increase and the sidewalks will become more crowded.

As long as we're talking about cause and effect relationships, were you aware that Charlie Crist is solely responsible for the sub prime mortgage mess AND that if Jim Davis had won, all teachers would be millionaires and Downtown St. Petersburg would be one continuous art festival?

I guess we really messed up in 2006.

[jtb]

city supporter:

have you ever actually walked down an urban sidewalk?

[homer]

no sane person would ever make this walk on game day! there would be way too many people on the sidewalks! for the good of downtown businesses we must keep the sidewalks clear of people at all times!

[Ray F]

Great point Homer...

Why on Earth would businesses want people willing to spend money walking by? When they can have bums sleeping on benches?

I enjor your views and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Jay]

Yes, don't forget the safety we'd have in numbers as we walk through heat, rain and lightning to watch the Rays. And also don't forget about the large crowd Christmas night 2007 at Baywalk in downtown St. Pete when those high spirited youngsters started firing guns. Read all about it if you forgot: http://www.sptimes.com/2007/12/28/Southpinellas/Tensions__gunfire_lea.shtml

[Kevin]

I can't WAIT to buy my brand new $300,000 "Tropicana" townhome, next to a bad neighborhood, with a view of 2 interstate highways and the noise that go along with it. Just think of strolling down 3rd Ave S from my front door to watch a ballgame on the waterfront, if I don't get soaked by a thunderstorm, hit by lightning, accosted by bums or flat out mugged. Oh, and the thought of my children playing in contaminated soil, frollicking next to busy 1st Ave S just gives me tingles. I also can't wait to take my kids to their yearly camp at the St. Pete sailing center, where they can board their Lasers and sit motionless in the "dead calm" marina waters, in the shadow of a giant, concrete wall of a super-walmart-sized building with it's even larger sail blocking the afternoon westerly seabreezes from people trying to sail or just plain enjoy a stroll along the waterfront...I'm getting moist just thinking about it. The evening Shakespear performances on Demens Landing will be so much more enjoyable trying to hear them over the din of 34,000 screaming baseball fans, and an even louder P.A. system. But once those old farts in Bayfront Tower sue the city for ruining their peacefull enjoyment of their homes, the Rays will be forced to construct a wall all the way around the outfield to contain the noise prohibited by law. Just ask the owner's of Frescos about making noise next to Bayfront Tower, they'll tell you!! And then we'll be basicly back to a domed (or is it doomed) stadium that we already have in the first place, that doesn't piss its neighbors off and that baseball fans can acually access without disturbing the lives of the majority of the rest of us, those being non-baseball fans/residents and voters of this little city we call home.

[Ray F]

Oh no!!! Lightning? In Florida? I hope I survive walking a few blocks. Typical fear mongers. You have the same chance of getting in an altercation in the Rays parking lot with a stubborn Red Sox fan as you would walking a half mile to your car.

Next excuse?

[jtb]

Jay,

Since we are supposedly here to "Preserve Our Waterfont," I was under the impression that downtown is a beautiful, near-perfect waterfront neighborhood that will be blighted by the new stadium. Or is downtown a place not fit for sensible humans to be walking around?

[Kevin]

Get your deposit ready Ray F...I mean, since you're such a HUGE FAN of this whole sham, I can reasonably assume you too will be one of the first in a long line around the block of people awaiting to put a deposit down on a condo in the redeveloped "Tropicana Housing Authority" fire sale? No?

[John]

Kevin has a point. Look at the Ford Ampitheatre for example, they were forced to build a rather cheesy looking noise containment wall around their venue in part because they did not do the research and testing before they built the original structure as to how it would impact their neighbors. And the people who were complaining were a half mile away! You may not agree with that but the fact is the people who will be the stadium's immediate residential neighbors do have rights and they were there first.

[Rick K]

Great bit of original reporting Aaron.

Because of the discussions in these forums, I have made a similar walk a couple of different times in the past two weeks. I have also tried to drive to Al Lang from Pinellas Park, with the intent of getting downtown around 5:30, and walking to Al Land so that I arrive there by around 6 pm.

I also found that the walking times printed on the map are very generous, or longer than most people will take to walk the walk.

On the other hand, if the Trop is redeveloped and has the impact I expect, in five years or so, those of us who attend Rays games will be parking near the Old Trop site, and performing a sort of pub crawl on the way to and from the game.

I have no idea how long it will take to make the trip under those conditions

[problems]

They don't complain about Ribfest, and all the other concerts down on vinoy park. Which are horribly loud!

[Ray F]

Kevin,

So... the new condo complex across from the Trop on 1st Ave S, by your measures, should be filled with people afraid to walk outside their doors for fear of being mugged? Or hit by a car? Or being struck by lightning? Or fear of forgetting where they parked their car?

Did you live in a bomb shelter after 9-11 because the fear of constant terrorist attacks was forced down your throat?

Live a little. Vote yes and enjoy our dynamic city before you die. And join us in approving a stadium that will be the envy of all Major League Baseball. What do you care? You're never going to see any savings from voting 'no'. You'll still be paying $4 a gallon for gas to put in your Lincoln Navigator at 10 miles to the gallon.

also, wind blowing past the stadium would cause a tunnel effect and gust more for the sailors (see the studies on the effects of building highrises adjacent to Niagara Falls)

[Rick K]

John:

First of all, there are VERY, VERY few residences who will be able to hear ballgames. I am sure some noise shielding can be done to lessen the worst of it. Secondly, people who buy homes within earshot of public venues upon which the City hosts noisy public events don't have very much room to complain.

I mean, I know a fair number of downtown residents who so hate the noises from the race that they leave town for the weekend. On the other hand, I know a fair number of downtown residents who LOVE it.

During my walk around the city last night, I stumbled across a couple who told me they have purchased a home in the as-yet unfinished Signature Towers. Their home will overlook the Al Land site. I was VERY curious about their view, since they are spending far more for their home than I spent for mine.

I was pleasantly surprised to find out that this couple I met was VERY MUCH in favor of the new ballpark. In fact, they engaged me in a conversation about ways that they might persaude decision makers to consider making it easier to view games from their home, as is done in Chicago and elsewhere....

I expressed to this couple that I wondered how the possiblity of the new ballpark was impacting sales in Signature Tower. While I cannot verify their report, they told me that the people involved with the developer with whom the couple discussed it are optimistically confident that a new stadium will HELP sell out the building.

[Jay]

Downtown is not a place I choose to walk around unarmed but hopefully someday we will have a mayor in office that will not impede the police from doing their job because of being a puppet for the Uhurus. Or maybe the Sheriff’s office will take over law enforcement. In the meantime, we stopped going to Baywalk several years ago. I don't know of anyone claiming downtown to be near-perfect when all things are considered including the crime issue. To me it is a beautiful area except for the overbuilt condos, but most people with any sense that have actually lived in St. Pete don't consider it safe.

[jtb]

so, downtown is a bad neighborhood, but a new stadium will ruin it?

[Leroy Jenkins]

Jay i think you should head downtown one Friday or Saturday night. Check out central ave between beach and 4th st. You should see the women. My God downtown st. Pete is becoming a hot spot! Their are so many people coming over from south Tampa to go out clubbing now! Its awesome. Last night i went out to dinner down on central at the z-grille (that place is so good)I parked on beach drive right by 5th ave. I just wanted to walk thru the city and see how hot it was and how dangerous. I will be happy to say it was a great night out and i wasn't worried at all about being murdered. Tonight i am going to get some dinner at the garden, I am going to park out by the trop and see how bad that area is.

[Thomas]

Who cares about parking or walking - according to the tax revenue estimates, the only thing anyone is going to have time to do is shop:

......................................

The Hines estimate (Table C) projects $29,032,500 in new sales taxes for the City and State in the first year.

In order to meet that estimate, consumers would need to spend $414,750,000 each year - just in the Trop redevelopment zone.

That's $1,136,301 of new sales each and every day.

The Property Tax estimates are even more abstract: Even the most conservative estimates by Hines in Table A project $10,546,666 in new property taxes.

The total millage rate is 21.1719. (To calculate the property tax, multiply the assessed value of the property by the mill rate and then divide by 1,000)

So in order to get to the Hines estimate, the assessed property value will have to be... $498,144,521.

That's right - the parcel of land that commanded only $70M to purchase from the city would now have an assessed value of almost a half-billion dollars.

No wonder the Rays and the developers refuse to guarantee their estimates, they're absolutely absurd.

.............................

Any of you supporters care to comment on these aspects of the financing plan?

[Ted Kennedy]

Too bad I won't be around to watch my Saaaax play there

[Rick K]

Yes Thomas.

I believe those estimates have undervalued likely performance by the fully developed property.

If we take the known sales figures from International Mall, Countryside Mall, and Tyrone Mall, and compare the likely tenant mix and likely economic climate of the region three or four years from now, these estimates seem to be on the extremely conservative side.

[Thomas]

Rick,

I'll humor your response for the benefit of anyone reading who might actually believe the nonsense you posted.

----------------------------------
1) Retail outlets don't do any where near the $414,750,000 projection that the Rays and their developers are asserting

Factual Reference: http://www.pinellasclerk.org/aspInclude2/CAFR2007/2007CAFR.pdf

------------------------------------
2) The economic climate is declining.

"In most states the growth of sales tax receipts will be significantly slowed."

Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater has one of the worst economic climates in the country.

Net Loss in Millions "-$1,388.9"

Factual Reference: http://www.usmayors.org/metroeconomies/1107/report.pdf

-------------------------------------

So now what Rick? Now that you can't just make stuff up, what are you going to do.... Call me a telemarketer or something I suppose.

[gary grooms]

Hi Jay -- and anyone else afraid to walk around downtown,

Your comment "Downtown is not a place I choose to walk around unarmed..." is surprising. In the three years I have lived downtown and have walked all over I have never had any issue or any fear of "criminal types" My wife walks around even more than I do - and neither of us feels the need to walk around "armed"

Are you sure you are talking about downtown St. Petersburg - Florida?

[Jay]

Actually it's a good idea to be armed anywhere in St. Pete. Obviously you have been fortunate in not finding it as unsafe as many of us do. The Times doesn't print all the news but those of us familiar with neighborhood issues could make your head spin with some stories of what passes for law and order in this city.

[Rick K]

Hey EVERYONE, I just saw Gary Grooms on TV. I am watching the live stream from the City Council meeting. Gary just finished talking. I now have to apologize to him for those who asserted he and I are the same person. Gary is much smarter and better looking than I am.

Anyway, I have taken up Thomas’ challenge.

Thomas,

Thank you for the opportunity to reply to your bogus numbers and make the case that the actual facts do not come anywhere near your assertions. First of all, I want to point out that your link does not go to financial figures about sales tax collections in Pinellas County.

Second of all, your calculations (previous post) use a 6% sales tax figure, when the actual sales tax in St. Pete /Pinellas is 7%. This exaggeration (distortion) of 1/6th is the equivalent of trying to overstate the projected revenue sales figures by 17 %.

Very clever, if you were trying to trick us.

Anyway, let’s dig into the County’s Annual Financial report.

By the way, the REAL link to the Financial Report is here:

http://www.pinellasclerk.org/aspInclude2/CAFR2007/Financial.pdf

Page 27 (of the pdf file) shows that the County collected $75,478,001 in the Penny for Pinellas tax program during the fiscal year (2007). Since this tax is collected at the rate of 1 cent on the dollar in taxable retail sales, the math is simple. Total taxable retail sales in the County were 100 times the amount collected in the Penny for Pinellas fund, or $7,547,800,100. That is 7 and a half BILLIOIN dollars, for those who are numerically dyslexic, like me.

CONCLUSION:

Thomas is trying to lie, again

[Thomas]

Oh boy. Here we go.

----------------------------------

Rick: "First of all, I want to point out that your link does not go to financial figures about sales tax collections in Pinellas County."

The link is to the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report. From there you can easily access information. (More on this in a moment)

CONCLUSION: Rick is wrong.

---------------------------------------

Rick: "your calculations use a 6% sales tax figure ... Very clever, if you were trying to trick us."

Thomas: "The Hines projects $29,032,500 in new sales taxes for the City and State in the first year... to meet that estimate, consumers would need to spend $414,750,000"

$29,032,500 divided by 7% sales tax = $414,750,000.

CONCLUSION: Rick is wrong; will he post an apology for inaccurately slandering me? I won't hold my breath.

---------------------------------------

Rick: "By the way, the REAL link to the Financial Report is here: http://www.pinellasclerk.org/aspInclude2/CAFR2007/Financial.pdf"

I almost fell over laughing when I saw this. The very astute Rick just posted a link to the "Financial Section" from the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report that I posted. If his IQ was normal, he would have easily clicked it from the menu I posted.

CONCLUSION: Rick is not very smart. (Seriously, read that again - he discredits my link then turns around and calls it the 'real' link when he uses it... that is hilarious!)

---------------------------------------

Rick: "Total taxable retail sales in the County were ... $7,547,800,100"

Agree. All of the business that can generate a taxable sale in the entire county create $7B in activity. But now, magically, this one retail center is going to do almost a half billion all by itself, uh-huh, sure it is.
Did you want to look at the numbers from comparable retail outlets in the area Rick - or was this dismantling enough for you?

---------------------------------
SCOREBOARD:

1) Rick accuses me of not posting an inaccurate link ... then uses the same link himself.

2) Rick erroneously accuses me of using an invalid tax percentage when clearly my calculations are accurate... he will probably not apologize for it.

3) Rick posts the entire country sales receipts as if they validate the figures suggested by Hines... they dont. They further solidify how absurd the estimates are.

CONCLUSION: Rick just got owned.

[Thomas]

I almost forgot to include Rick's assertion that the economy is accelerating.

According to Rick, the estimates are conservative because the likely economic climate is going to induce more consumer spending.

I think the Rays should abandon St. Pete for the greener pastures of Rick's Fantasy Land and Baseball Gardens.

[Rick K]

Thomas, how about this?

I put up $1000 (0r another amount you like, from $1 to $1000), you put up the same amount and we see what happens in this city/county in 2012.

I project that the City's economy will have outpaced inflation.

What do you say?

[Don Mott]

Grasping for straws are we? What is with all of the bets? Can you not refute Thomas? No, instead you propose a bet based on the economy 4 years from now. How lame!

[gary grooms]

Hi Jay,

Why would I consider being armed in St. Pete? What's going to happen to me?

[Rick K]

Don:

Asking people to put up money is a good way to identify those who are just shooting out BS from those who really believe what they say.

It sometimes helps observers to figure out who is full of crap.

[Thomas]

Rick,

We don't need a wager for observers to know that you were full of crap.

We don't need a wager for observers to see that you neglected to correct any of your erroneous accusations.

No one needs wager as barometer for accuracy - they'll simply read the previous exchange and have no doubt that I was spot on and you were exposed as a fraud.

[Chris Jenkins]

Well, I see the conversation hasn't improved in civility at all while I've been tied up.

Gary, sorry I missed you, Bud. Things got unexpectedly hectic this week. I'll email you, and let's see about doing next week.

To all the rest of you: Bets, name calling, fear mongering, on and on...really? This is the best we can come up with? A few guerilla marketers with a half dozen names have effectively turned this here island into Lord of the Flies (fly balls, I'm sure, in this case...).

I am not scared to walk around in downtown St. Pete. Yes, there are some criminals downtown, and some ignorant frat boys, and more than one version of "Drunk Guy who likes to fight". In fact, I even ran into that guy on Christmas Eve at the Pelican (And why is DGWLTF always so short?). I agree with Grooms on this one...I am not scared of downtown...if I was, I wouldn't love it so much.

By the same token, the Rickster twins most certainly are playing games with the numbers, and disclaiming solid research with BS responses ("Professors don't like sports, so they make up research against it! Waah!"). Good Christ, guys, if there's a ton of research out there to refute the countless studies showing a negative economic benefit, than do what smart people do, and CITE IT.

Seven months of this conversation, and it's still "Hippies and old people don't want the stadium". Every one of you extremists is wrong in your approach, and to call your treatment of the facts "loose" would be generous.

Ricks, you guys act like shills. You might not be, but you act like it, and back it up with the old hit and run tactic of insulting ad hominems, then crying foul when it is returned. You try to break down conversation, and you meet facts with countering rhetoric, without dealing with the facts. The numbers on this deal simply do not add up, and the true cost is likely to be 2-300 million more than what has been quoted, just based on historical stadium cost over runs. Find me a single stadium built under budget, or which required LESS tax dollars than promised.

On the other hand, Get Smart, what is your issue with Jews? I get it, NY Goldman Sachs yada yada yada...I hate it when folks far better off than myself increase their holdings further through use of my tax dollars, but really, enough already with the NY Jew Carpetbagger stuff. It's offensive.

My friends and I are young to youngish 25-35), working professionals, intelligent, and represent both ends of the political spectrum, and quite a bit of the middle. The vast majority of us are against THIS DEAL, not against the Rays, and the remaining members are undecided. I don't know anyone all out for the idea, which is why I want to hang with Gary Grooms for a bit, to get a feel of what the other side is like, as a person, and without the safety of online anonymity.

I would recommend the rest of you do the same. We're all people here, and most of us are actual real life citizens of St. Pete. There are a few shills in the mix, but once identified, just ignore them. Let the residents of this city speak to each other. Better yet, let's do it over a beer.

[gary grooms]

Hi Chris,

Good to see you back - and in one piece. Send me an email letting me know what works for you - I have a fair amount of flexibility in my schedule.

[jtb]

nice post, chris.

[this ain't mulberry]

For those who are against tell me the highlights of why this would be horrible for st. pete

[this ain't mulberry]

Minimum of $350 million in additional city revenue;

15,000 temporary construction jobs;

2,000-3,000 permanent jobs;

Additional revenue captured by local business;

Public transportation built up;

Additional commitment from Ray’s (Both $$ and time);

$1 Billion dollars in hidden value released by redevelopment of current field site; and

Continuation of a 80 year history of baseball on the Al Lang site.

These reasons give me confidence in supporting this proposal. On top of all this we are in a recession of undetermined length with our two biggest industries suffering (tourism and real estate).

[Ray F]

whoa, whoa, whoa, Mulberry... how dare you came here waving your flags of prosperity and good fortune?!? Don't you know that we're in an economic crisis?!? We need to gather our acorns and berries and stuff them away for the future.

Who gives you the right to speculate on how great of a project this could be for the city?!?

I need to see hard evidence that this is a great idea. Back in the day, we had a great idea... Save Albert Whitted Airport, because god forbid a defunct airport belongs on the waterfront. Don't you know that the manatees want the St Petersburg waterfront to stay the pristine natural preserve with it's miles of seawalls that GOD put there for the enjoyment of all the sea creatures?!? Don't you know that the boulder jetties in the yacht basin were put there for the advancement of aquatic life?!?

That kind of rational thinking belongs somewhere else. If you want something to make sense, go read Dr. Seusse.

[Thomas]

Mulberry,
Let's look at some of these points:

"Minimum of $350 million in additional city revenue"
The revenue projections are absurd. You can scroll back through this thread for a more detailed look at the numbers and what it would take to achieve them. The Rays and the developers refuse to guarantee the numbers because they are not realistic.

"15,000 temporary construction jobs;"
Majority of which will be held by non-residents. Many may actually not even be legal citizens.

"2,000-3,000 permanent jobs;"
A good job creation program averages about $7500 per job created. This plan would be roughly $116,000 per job.

"Additional revenue captured by local business;"
Actually, the revenue would be displaced from other local businesses. It would be a substitution, not new.

"Additional commitment from Ray’s (Both $$ and time);"
The Rays already are committed to the Trop through 2027. You see how much their commitment is worth. 10 years into it and now they're threatening to leave

[Thomas]

The plan has aspects that are very encouraging. But as a whole, it doesn't add up. It's too much of a subsidy to the Rays and not enough in return.

It would be great to redevelop the Trop and the Al Lang site. But redeveloping those two public parcels and giving all the proceeds to the Rays is not going to work.

If they asked for just the bed tax - or just the parking revenue - or just some of the redevelopment money, it would be a plan worth supporting. But the team wants it all. And that's why they are going to get a big fat no from majority of the people. The plan is lopsided and greedy. The team is not stepping up at all.

They should revise their offer to be less of a burden on the public. And they definitely should drop the "we're leaving" threats. They have a lease through 2027 - how about honoring that commitment to their fans and the public that paid to construct the dome.

[Bruce Cook]

Is anyone using any common sense in this whole discussion? Have you been to a game recently? It is a 10-20 minute ordeal to find a parking spot even with all the parking lots next to the stadium - and that with only an attendance of 12 -15 thousand. If you park away from the stadium, it is then a 10 minute walk.

Please go to a game and while you are sitting waiting to find a place to park, just imagine all of this taking place downtown - it's just insane.

The Rays so-called "parking study" says that everything would be just fine because there is plenty of parking within a 25 minute walk. Are you kidding me?! A 25 minute walk?! In 90 degree weather? With 70-80% chance of rain? Are we in the land of Oz?

If the current City Council and the Mayor actually think that they won't be thrown out of office for allowing this go forward, all they have to do is look back at the last time the good citizens of St. Petersburg were deceived into building the current stadium.

And have you heard the current ad on 1250 AM with Kevin Costner telling us all about the new stadium as if it is already an accomplished deal?

Our elected officials better pay attention - this doesn't look good. How did they ever think they should go this far without even first deciding whether it should even be done?

And shame on the Chamber of Commerce! Now we are starting to hear through the mouthpiece of the Chamber of threats to move the team if the Rays don't get their way.

There is only one reason that this idea is being promoted by the Rays organization: money.

There is only one entity that is going to benefit financially from a new stadium on our waterfront: the Rays.

[Bubba, Pinellas Park]

Whether it takes 10 minutes or 30 minutes to walk isn't my issue. My issue and everyone else's should be, would you really want to park at night on the street in these areas, or walk back to your car at 11pm? Thats if it's still there. Not me!!!

[jtb]

bubba, to answer your question: yes.

bruce, if it takes you 20 minutes to find a parking space at the trop, i would be happy to provide you with a map of the area. or i could just tell you to look for the acres and acres of neighborhood-killing parking spaces to the east of the big stadium on 16th street. they're pretty hard to miss.

and, bruce, with gas prices most likely heading north of $4 within a couple of weeks, there are plenty of people who would welcome the chance to get out of their car and take a 25-minute walk to someplace worthwhile. a pedestrian-friendly stadium will be a major plus in the very near future. (25 minutes from al lang will get you pretty far away from the stadium, by the way...)

[Little BowWow]

I can't's wait for all the new victums, to come into my hood. Bring on the new Stadium! Welcome, from the Bro's, Mirror Lake Posse

[Rick K]

Chris Jenkins:

You crack me up.

I mean, honestly, I laughed out loud at your post.

There is this very homey "can't we all be civil" tone to it, which is hilarious.

It is hilarious for two reasons:

First, everytime I have ever encountered someone who used that approach it turned out that they were merely trying to distract me. They were trying to get people to let their emotions and their upbringing as decent humans trump their critical anayalis of (whatever) issues.

Second, I don't need to sit down with the people who post on this blog and spew out garbage. Just as I don't have to go to the circus everytime it comes to town to know what happens under the BigTop.

If someone puts forth the silly notion that the measurable economic benefits of these proposals is going to be zero or a negative sum, I don't need to sit down with that person. That person is either a clueless idiot or a liar. I don't have much time for either.

My participation in these blogs is to inform the person who comes here looking for answers. When the anti's make some ridiculous claim, I will point it out, so that it doesn't go unchallenged.

You pretend I have been uncivil or participated in ad hominem attacks. Which only means that you aren't paying attention, or you lack reasonable judgement.

I haven't been uncivil. I haven't attacked anyone personally. I attack arguments and claims that I regard as untrue or worthy of a counter argument.

There is nothing wrong with bets. They separate the BS'ers from people who actually believe what they are saying. If someone says that the Rays don't produce economic benefits, and I offer to bet them, and they fail to take me up on the bet, it tells MOST of us that they know their claim is not true.

It's a simple device.

Of course, those who do NOT want there to be clarity object to devices which clear things up.

You also cry about "fear mongering."

Which is hilarious, because that is pretty much all the anti's have to offer on these blogs. Well, besides fear, they offer all sorts of untrue claims, distortions, and attempts to change the subject.

I heard the POWW guy on the radio. And I have since seen him in the YouTube video stream someone posted from the meeting at the Pier. I have not offered personal attacks, instead, I have offered criticism of the way I thought his message came across.

Chris, if you were paying attention, you might see my contributions to these debates as a service to the Anti side. Some anti arguments are offered with no counter from me. Others inspire me to jump in.

Some would look at the threads and see that certain arguments are just bogus and won't convince any thinking person who has not made up their mind.

Others would see that many of the Anti's who post here embrace a whole slew of untruths from which there can be no return.

I am quite sure that there are stakeholders who have not yet made up their minds. I am not really interested in persauding those people. I am more interested in helping to shape the debate a little bit, so that it isn't dominated by distractions and silly untruths.

Take for example the silly ANTI argument that we should oppose these twin redevelopment proposals because they amount to public investment that will financially benefit private business owners, and also, some citizens will derive more pleasure from these investments than others will.

That's is what St. Pete is. That is what all urban cities are. Cities are combinations of public and private investments. Some of the public investments benefit private business owners. All public and private investment benefits some citizens more than others.

St. Pete is beautiful City on the water. We have a public marina and a whole system of publicly-maintained navigable waterways which benefit boat owners. We have a whole host of libraries, schools, and public parks which benefit those who use them. We have a system of public streets and public utilities that benefit some more than others.

Parks benefit the users of the park more than non users.

Which is why the ANTI's argument is false.

We aren't debating, on the one hand, public investment that will disproportinately benefit a few and on the other hand benefit everyone. We are debating two contrary proposals, both of which will provide disproportinate benefits to a few while providing (harder to measure) benefits to the greater population (including, hopefully, future generations).

Chris, the ANTI side acts like it is a foregone conclusion that tearing down AL LANG will make the city "better."

In fact, that is what we are debating.

We are debating which of several possible futures are most desired by the current citizens.

Chris, you crack me up. You claim that I don't present facts (when, in fact, I do), and you come right back with a baseless, unprovable accusation.

In short, Chris, I have no desire to hang out with liars who fool themselves or try to fool others.

Not my bag.

Instead, I would prefer to hang out with people who share my values and like what I like.

I can think of few things less enjoyable than sitting down to hang out with people who want to trick me.

But thanks for the offer, Chris.

That you pretend otherwise is hilarious.

[Thomas]

Wow, nice 10,000 word post Rick. Too bad no one cares.

Your time expired at 7:49pm May 22.

The scoreboard never lies...

[Rick K]

Thomas,

Thanks for taking the time to point out that you don't care.

Mighty kind of you.

[Ray F]

I counted 10,001 words. Good to see he had the clicker out.

[Rick K]

Actually, using the "numerical filter" which Thomas applies elsewhere, we can guess that what he sees as 10 K words is probably more like 950 K.

I've never encountered another with his capacity for abritrarily reducing numbers.

[Thomas]

Rick,

We can just scroll up and read that you were wrong.

It's time to give up on that one buddy.

If you were any kind of man you'd admit it and post a retraction/correction. But those of us that have had to suffer through your mindless ramblings certainly know that is not going to happen.

No matter - we can all very easily see that you got exposed as a fraud.

Have a nice day Rick!

[Chris Jenkins]

Rick, your argument is so full of straw men that you left me nothing to respond to, as you didn't address any of my points, made baseless assertations as to what you thought my points were, and then denigrated my attempt at injecting some civility as a ploy to get people to stop thinking.

Gary and I have already discussed having a sit down. People not trying to use divisive polarity as a weapon of influence aren't afraid of a little face time. It's clear where you stand.

[Willie]

Rick K, and Ray F. obviously must work for the Rays. Or had lobotmy's.

[Ray F]

Willie,

I work for a furniture company, in a stuffed up office. I wish I worked for the Rays... sorry. I'm just a fan and citizen of St Pete who support this idea by the Rays.

If you want them to build a Starbucks by your house to make life easier for you, does that mean you work for Starbucks?

Don't try to guess my reasoning for supporting this without simply asking why I care.