The original Tropicana Field

Click for larger photo

Tropicana Field might have looked like this.

The St. Petersburg Times has unearthed a preliminary design for Tropicana Field that included outdoor seating with a tent roof to shield both the field and fans from the weather.

The black-and-white picture above was taken by Times photographer Fraser Hale in early 1983. (You should be able to click on the photo to make it larger). In the distance is the old Bayfront Arena. On the right is Interstate 175. A fabric roof stretches over a boomerang shaped baseball stadium, anchored to the upper deck on one end, and at the ground on the other. Fountains shoot up from center field.

That stadium, of course, was never built.

The plan, the work of the Pinellas Sports Authority, was shelved after city and county leaders pressed for a multipurpose dome to attract activities other than baseball.

The Tampa Bay Rays now want to level that dome for a stadium, shown at right, very much like the one local leaders first contemplated. The Rays had never seen the 1983 picture before, they say.

"People were really impressed with it," recalled former sports authority chairman Cecil Engelbert, one of the few living people still associated with the original design. "It would have sure been attractive."

If the Rays get their way, we still may get to see it.

Comments

[Mark]

Also remember that the baseball stadium was sold as a way to start redevelopment in St. Pete. Of course, the only place in the city that hasn't been redeveloped is the waste land around the dome.

[get-smart]

AAron - Idea for survey

Which song best describes to you the New Waterfront Stadium Proposal?

Living without You - Harry Nilsson

Tell Her No - The Zombies

Give Me Some Truth - John Lennon

- - movie titles may work too.

[JR]

Wow that original design actually looks quite nice.

[Bill]

The new waterfront ballpark will be a tremedous enhancement for St. Pete. I cannot wait for it to be built. Having water taxis shuttle fans from Tampa to St. Pete will cut down on parking/traffic and would be a fun way to travel to a game. Go Rays! Build the new ballpark!

[Mike]

These songs would better describe my feelings for the new stadium ...

Satisfaction - Rolling Stones

What I Like About You - The Romantics

You're the One that I Want - Olivia Newton-John

Let's get this stadium done!

(Waiting patiently for the two or three smear artists to dress me down for daring to support the stadium ...)

[Dr_Dug]

Don't trust the Rays Owners! They've seen that picture before!
LYING COPYCATS

NO WATERFRONT STADIUM.

[RayF]

They should've built that to begin with. That would be considered state of the art by today's standards and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Obviously, the decision makers aren't good at their job. I say we use this knowledge as reasoning to build the new park based on the fact that 20years from now, we can say... "ahhh glad we didn't listen to a bunch of whithered old people who have nothing better to do with their time than sit at home complaining about the waterfront they never visit in the first place. Face it people, the green benches and shuffleboard tournaments are gone. Deal with it.

[Ian]

I went to the game on Saturday night. Getting to the Trop from 275 is a breeze parking took 5 mins. The atmosphere at the game was great, I think I saw comments from players and managers describing the atmosphere as "electrifying" and '10th Man".
After the game we were in the car and back on 275 in 10 minutes, and that was with 25,000 people there. I just dont see how thats going to happen if the new stadium is built.
It goes without saying for me that 72deg A/C feels pretty good too.
The Trop is perfectly serviceable I havent seen one convincing argument for demolishing it!

[Jon McPhee]

Hey, Aaron, did you Times researchers look to see what kind of documentation covered the decision NOT to build a tent-city stadium way back when? Maybe because it was too hot, too impractical and too expensive? How about sharing those little details with us, hey?

And Bill and Chuck and all you rooters, my thought is that you ought to get the Rays to go public, so you can buy shares, and with that capital maybe the Rays can do like other businesses that find a need for a new plant -- buy the da-n thing themselves, not out of the pockets of a bunch of increasingly strapped citizens. What-- doesn't seem like a good investment? Then leave your grabby paws off my wallet.

[Jesus C.]

My dad says you should definitely build the staduim; and upsetting him would be bad. Most of the people who are aginst it are on their way to my house anyways...

[Annette]

I agree with Ian! I can't imagine that folks that live and work downtown want to hear the noise that will go on for too many months, and where are people going to park? As it is now, on a really busy game day, you have to park way out from the Trop. Somehow I think we the people, are going to get suckered into this new nonsense.

[Jon in Bradenton]

It's too hot in Florida for outdoor baseball to thrive! (repeat)

[get-smart]

Oh! RayF. Oh! Ye with limited knowledge base. There were no Pro teams in the south during the Green Bench Days. It was too hot. It was Spring Training in Florida that was appealing. The 1983 concept stadium is neat. Now imagine being under the canvas roof after a down pour and the humidity goes up to 100% and no cross ventilation. Use your noodle RayF.. the one in your head!

[John Doe]

If you build it, they will come....

[Aaron Sharockman]

Hey Jon,
I thought I did.

"The plan, the work of the Pinellas Sports Authority, was shelved after city and county leaders pressed for a multipurpose dome to attract activities other than baseball."

Basically, the city and the county wanted to try to use the stadium for things other than baseball, like basketball or hockey (things that have to be indoors). It worked for a while (Lightning, NCAA tournament, etc.), but hasn't really had many classic "indoor" events since.

There are other events at the Trop for sure, boat show, graduations, now a college football bowl game. But those all could have been played outdoors as well.

I'm not saying heat wasn't a factor. But it did appear to be the most pressing concern. Here's two quotes from 1983. First, from St. Petersburg city manager Alan Harvey:

"A dome would open up a lot more options than a facility that's not domed," Harvey said. "We can do a lot with a facility with weather protection. The principal tenant would be baseball, but we've got to build it in such a way that it can accommodate soccer, basketball and possibly even USFL football. There's no way we can build a facility for NFL football. They require too many seats."

And here's Lt. Gov. Wayne Mixson, who presided over a ceremonial groundbreaking for the stadium in 1983. "The design of the stadium is going to make sure the good, sweet air we enjoy outdoors will be brought indoors."

Also, the original design was cheaper than the dome. Again, the city and county agreed to pay more to have a dome that could be used for potentially more events than an outdoor ballpark.

[Ian]

Bill, right now it doesnt seem like too many people from Tampa and beyond can be persuaded to get in their car drive 40 mins to easy parking to watch the game.
Are you seriously suggesting those people will get in their car then get out to take a 10 mile boat ride to watch a game!
I want some of what you've been smoking.

[John]

If they're going to spend half a billion to build the stupid thing they could at least be called THE ST. PETE RAYS.

[Lana]

You are a major league city. Now start acting like it instead of like a bunch of whining little bush leaguers. A major league team is something other cities would love to have. Oh wait - that is the image your city wants to project. Nevermind. In twenty years you will just be Tampa West anyway.

[Bill]

Ian - You must really be depressed. Lighten up and open your eyes to progress. Lots of other cities are growing and prospering. I guess you just want St. Pete and Tampa to regress. Growth, and water tranportation are what cities by bodies of water try to achieve. Go crawl back into your hole!

[Jaded By Past Promises]

The people don't come to watch the Rays play now, what makes you all think that they'd come down here in heavy traffic on a day where it's 90 degrees with 80% humidity to watch them? What about the afternoon/evening thunderstorms we get here almost everyday? That'll be fun sitting through one of those underneath
gi-normous canvas type material, huh?

[Rich]

Hey Ian,

How 'bout a little cheese with that whine?

[Paul]

Rays should go elsewhere. With a catchment of over 2 million people, it's clear the locals are not interesting in a poor baseball side.

[JudyToo]

"If the Rays get their way, we still may get to see it."

If the city officials have any sense at all, they will make sure that the Rays live up to their contract and stay in the stadium they willingly leased for 30 years (no one forced them to do it).

I enjoy reading all the non-reasons for building a new stadium, but the supporters are woefully short when it comes to irrefutable facts. Consider a few:

1. We KNOW that the proposed financing requires tax revenues generated by the proposed redevelopment. These new revenues could be used for city services, improving our police and fire departments, restoring community services like code enforcement personnel, etc.

2. We KNOW that the environmental impact (and that includes much more than the encroachment on the bay) issues have not been defined, resolved or even discussed with appropriate agencies. Bay encroachment, noise, light, litter, sewage, storm water, the list is long.

3. We KNOW that the sailing center will be affected because little boats without motors cannot sail in the shadow of a wall 80' - 200' high that is 900' long.

4. We KNOW that traffic and parking issues will be more problematic than at the Trop. Our current traffic management costs are $400,000 a year at the Trop and they are going up.

5. We KNOW that the Trop works - almost everyone that goes to baseball games and other events in the Trop like the A/C, the parking and no worries about rain and lightning.

6. We KNOW that we still owe $100 Million on the Trop - and we know that it will be paid for in 2016. Our subsidy of the Rays is currently about $3 Million per year because of their very low rental payments. Once the Trop is paid off and the naming rights revenues are increased to the city, those subsidies will drop dramatically.

7. We KNOW what happened with the Trop - the costs ($85 vs $300 Million), the promises, etc.

8. We KNOW that there are a lot of things that just don't seem to make sense, so why are they rushing us to vote now? They don't have all the answers and we can't make an informed decision. Something is fishy about the rush - maybe there's something going on behind the scenes?

9. We KNOW that this new stadium will be paid for with our money, no matter how they try to tell us that it's really not our tax money. Even their $150 Million "contribution" is really our money - they are just paying their rent in advance, then they expect to have 30 tyears rent free!

10. We KNOW we have a 911 emergency call to our city and NO ONE is answering the phone! The city council should be replacing the economic development staff with police officers and paying them fair salaries - they leave us faster than we can replace them for better jobs necxt door. Our firefighters haven't had a contract for four years. Crime is increasing: we have had 13 homicides this year! Every neighborhood is complaining of lack of adequate police patrols. Our city, county and state budgets are reduced this year and will be cut even more next year. The whole thing is just backwards.

Now, what can we say that we really KNOW are reasons we we should even be thinking about this?

Do we KNOW the Rays new stadium will improve our business downtown? Is there a guarantee? In fact, what is wrong with downtown? Seems to be working fine!

Do we KNOW that a developer will find retail businesses that will want them to build new stores on the Trop site?

Do we KNOW there are 2,000 families anxious to buy or rent homes in the Trop area? Don't we have enough homes for sale in St. Pete?

Do we KNOW what it will cost to clean up the Trop site to current residential standards?

Do we KNOW what it will cost to bring in the required infrastructure for the proposed redevelopment and the proposed stadium?

We do KNOW that the Rays have 20 years remaining on their lease at the Trop. Why can't we take a year, get all the answers, and vote for this when we are voting for four council members and a new mayor? They are trying to cram this down our throats this year because there are no local elections.

If the new stadium supporters could come up with one (just one) FACTUAL reason why we should even consider this proposal, then there could be meaningful debate and discussion. As it is, the supporters all say things like "ahhh glad we didn't listen to a bunch of whithered old people who have nothing better to do with their time than sit at home complaining about the waterfront they never visit in the first place. Face it people, the green benches and shuffleboard tournaments are gone. Deal with it."

Guess what? Those are the people paying most of the property taxes that have been supporting the Rays for the last ten years. Maybe they are not going to be duped into subsidizing them for another THIRTY years.

There are zero reasons why taxpayers should subsidize private corporations. When Marriott wants to build a new hotel/resort/condo development, they actually pay for the land and all the construction costs. Then they pay huge property taxes that support the services they require (like streets and water and fire and police).

The Rays want all the citizens of St. Pete and Pinellas county to GIVE them their land, build a stadium for them, tear down the old stadium, pay off the $100 Million debt, clean up the site, sell it to a developer for 10 cents on the dollar, and then divert all the city property taxes to their new stadium. All the while, the Rays PAY NO PROPERTY TAX.

Just one good factual reason why we should do this? Please?

Oh, and don't bother with "we'll look good on TV" or "we want to watch baseball outside" or "we have a history of baseball at Al Lang field" or "that design looks quite nice" or "don't stand in the way of progress" or any of those other empty excuses that just are not worth risking anywhere near $450 Million!

Now, how about a proposal that makes sense? The Rays don't like the dome. They want an outdoor ballpark. Fine. Let them purchase the Trop and the surrounding land from the city - we'll let 'em have it for cost, no profit. Then they can be like the Yankees - build whatever they can sneak past the planning commission next to the Trop.

Build it and they will come. Kevin will help with more videos. Get donations/investments from all those who want a new stadium. If those people want it, let them pay for it. A nice new stadium with no A/C to bother with. LEED certified. They can ask their buddies at Hines if they want to build a mall and/or houses and get some of their money back.

Won't work? Why not? ALL businesses operate that way. Oops, I forgot, this isn't a business. It's a giant corporate welfare scheme designed to make millionaires into billionaires. Remember, all those profits go to New York. Not to St. Pete.

Please, just one factual reason why we should do this. No poppycock, now. Just facts.

[Lana]

Sure. Let them go elsewhere. Keep your heads in the sand. What a bunch of losers. St. Pete? Hah. Tampa West. Or just Tampa. Just get it over with now. You are just a bunch of losers anyway.

[John]

Listen to your mayor:

Rays play in a great ballpark; what they need is our support
By RICK BAKER
Published March 19, 2005
St. Petersburg Times

The Times' recent series, What Went Wrong? 10 Years of Devil Rays Baseball, discussed the 10 years of experience since the awarding of a Major League Baseball team to St. Petersburg.

Tropicana Field provides a great home for Major League Baseball, today and into the future. It possesses functionality, comfort and good sight lines. Comments that Tropicana Field was already an old facility when the Devil Rays took to the field in 1998 are very misleading. Over 85-million new dollars were spent renovating the Trop just before the Rays' opening season, adding renovations identified by the team and Major League Baseball. To assert that it was a "10-year-old stadium" is comparable to saying that the Renaissance Vinoy Resort, which underwent a $93-million renovation in the early 1990s, was a 75-year-old, out-of-date hotel when it reopened. Just as the owners of the Vinoy Resort opened a newly restored modern hotel in 1992, the city of St. Petersburg delivered a great ballpark on opening day in 1998.

One of Tropicana Field's best selling points is its location in downtown St. Petersburg. It is surrounded on three sides by uncongested interstate highways and it has 7,000 on-site parking spaces and 25,000 parking spaces within a mile. In fact, in a Tampa Tribune editorial following the first week of the Rays' regular season in 1998, the newspaper concluded that the city can handle traffic. Cars moved swiftly along St. Petersburg's streets going to and coming home from the game. And there was plenty of parking.

As a testament to its accessibility and popularity with fans, Tropicana Field holds nine of the all-time top 10 NHL attendance records, the all-time Arena Football attendance record, the U.S. attendance record for Davis Cup tennis, and attendance records in Florida for the NBA and NCAA men's college basketball. Cirque du Soleil selected Tropicana Field as the location for its last two very successful touring shows to the region, and will return later this year. In 2000, Sports Travel, Inc., a sports marketing company, ranked Tropicana Field as the second most fan-friendly park in the major leagues in its 30 Ballpark Millennium Tour.

Similarly, downtown St. Petersburg may be the strongest destination on Florida's west coast, where 1.5-million people visit the Pier and 3-million people visit BayWalk each year. It is home to an internationally televised Grand Prix, art festivals, concerts in the park and museum exhibitions like the current "Monet's London" exhibition, "Diana: a Celebration," last year's Chihuly exhibition, or the blockbusters "Treasures of the Czars" and "Titanic." Indeed, in recent years, downtown St. Petersburg has emerged as one of Florida's most active entertainment destinations with more than 1,000 special events and attractions that draw nearly 10-million people annually.

The reality is that we have a great ballpark in a great location that is at the heart of the biggest and richest media market south of Atlanta. As we have seen with the Bucs and the Lightning, a winning team can generate excitement, attendance and revenue for a sports franchise in this region. We experienced a sample of the excitement Major League Baseball can bring to our community last year when the Rays had a 12-game winning streak, and drew nearly 70,000 fans for two weekday games with the New York Yankees in July.

I am confident that the Rays management and ownership intend to build a franchise that will succeed on the field. They are investing in their organization and are producing great young talent. I have heard manager Lou Piniella say on many occasions that a winning team will bring in the fans, just as it did for the Bucs and the Lightning. We all can help make this vision a reality by attending games and supporting the Rays as our home team. When we host our first playoff game, Tropicana Field will be sold out and the crowd noise from the fans cheering on the home team will provide a distinctive home-field advantage for the Rays.

Rick Baker is the mayor of St. Petersburg.

[JudyToo]

"Sure. Let them go elsewhere. Keep your heads in the sand. What a bunch of losers. St. Pete? Hah. Tampa West. Or just Tampa. Just get it over with now. You are just a bunch of losers anyway."

Please, just one factual reason why we should do this. No poppycock, now. Just facts.

[sue]

"Sure. Let them go elsewhere. Keep your heads in the sand. What a bunch of losers. St. Pete? Hah. Tampa West. Or just Tampa. Just get it over with now. You are just a bunch of losers anyway."

You are the loser, Lana. You make no sense, not go to school today?

[st. pete resident]

I say build the stadium then at night the tent dwelling homeless can use the outfield for their tents. they can be in charge of cleaning the stadium after games for there place in the lawn. Hey st. pete im looking for a new home how about a loan that will get payed back, oops what am I saying the people in charge dont care about us they want to give to a corporation that has been reaping in the profits by putting misfits on the field instead of spending it on REAL baseball players. when is the name going to back the city that backs them? tampa rays? im not a tampon.

[Concerned]

I'm siding with Paul on this one, the man has taken the time to document valid points, some of the same thoughts that I have but don't have the time to type. I say, let them follow the contract they signed. If they do that I'll go to several games a year.

If they move out of the A/C and couple the traffic problems that will arise. Let's put it this way, "I will never you to another Rays game unless it is at the Trop".

[Jimmy Mack]

One factual reason? Nobody wants to see a baseball game in an air conditioned warehouse... Evidence? Attendence figures. The way the Rays are playing now, they should have 30,000 for each home game...

[Concerned]

Sorry about that, the phone rang and I was typing and talking at the same time. What I meant to say is that,

I "I will never go to another Rays game unless it is at the Trop".

[Paul]

Do you have an opinion Lana? Sounds like you don't even live in St Pete, so even if you did have an opinion, it doesn't count, because you can't vote in St Pete on this issue. I'll rephrase my comment... this project should be killed now. We have wasted way too much City time and money on this boondoggle. No vote, no new stadium, no destruction of our beautiful waterfront with this boom box, WalMart style building.

[No Minor League City in My Lifetime]

this blog is exhibit A of what happens when a bunch of whiney simpletons attempt to ruin progress and turn this town back into a minor league city

thank God there are enough people to squash their petty jealousy for the ownership group and those who aren't afraid to put their neck on the line to make some money in the process

It will be with great joy that I watch these same whiners piss & moan when the stadium is APPROVED by the majority!

[Paul]

Lana: you're not allowed to have an opinion unless it agrees with mine and those of the other limp-wristed pansies who'd rather have a row of green park benches than a REAL major league stadium to be proud of!

[Ian]

Why are people who oppose this plan whiners?
If you look at this blog several opponents have voiced well thought out,logical reasons why we dont need a new stadium . It seems like all the proponents can do is insult people (many of whom are Rays fans including myself) who dont happen to subscribe to thier viewpoint.
As for an 'air conditioned warehouse' I would much prefer that to a humid, hot, wet tent. If you guys want to go camping do it on your own dime.

[Lee]

The Rays are going to get a new stadium. It's only a question of when. It's only going to get more expensive as the years go by. LOOK AT THE BAYWAY BRIDGE FIASCO.

[Paul]

Thanks Paul, for pretending to be me. Remember if you are not a registered voter in St Pete, you do not get to vote on this ... and thus your opinion is not that important to the issue. As for the green benches, we don't have any, guess you wouldn't know that because you don't live here nor do you actually go downtown. This should not be put on a ballot at the Rays don't drive the City, the citizens do and last time I checked, us citizens want Al Lang to be yes, another beautiful addition to our waterfront park system. Our Council is bobble heading in bafflement at this Rays proposal, as soon as they wise up, which is anyday now, Council will reject this plan all together.

Thanks, I'm here all week. Feel free to pretend to be me anytime you want.

[Dr_Dug]

Re: Parking

I live in (N.E.)St.Pete and parking can be quite a hassle. The streets are decades old and DESIGNED decades ago. It's a residential area with parks and bike paths. The speed limit in areas is 15 mph. With a finite amount of space available, why squeeze in more people? The upside to a successful stadium is filling the seats;the downside is the neighborhood can't handle a full stadium. No one is going to park and then walk 15-20 minutes in the Florida Sun to sit in an open-air stadium. The parking on Beach Drive and other areas have "time limit" parking, and in combination with the Vinoy, a (one day full) New Condos on Beach Drive, the Pier, Baywalk, Museum and First Night, I don't see where the people are going to park.
The best idea for the waterfront is to bulid a shopping area with a circus theme like Coney Island. Shopping ALWAYS brings the people and with the right design, St.Pete would be the next unique Family Waterfront Shopping experience.
Back to the Rays and parking..... There isn't enough room for a Ballpark on the water, and if there was one and it was full, where would all the people fit????
NO WATERFRONT STADIUM

[Reality]

Right or wrong, the fact is that the popularity of professional sports allows teams to receive special considerations from the communities they represent. Believe me, other large businesses receive tax incentives from local governments all the time for things like relocating corporate offices to their city. If you want to be a "major league city" then you deal with it. For what you give, you get back in the marketing of the city which draws more visitors and new residents (and their tax dollars) to the city.

[Tina]

I don't know why this has to turn into a mindless game oof insults w/i this forum. Everyone against the stadium aren't elderly, nor simpletons. Many wonderful points were brought up agains teh stadium and I agree. Beyond the obvious destruction of what's left of our beautiful waterfront, I can't IMAGINE sitting in 100% humidity in August outside with thousands of people. Traffic on those narrow downtown streets (and I used to work across from Al Lang for years) will be treacherous (I can't even IMAGINE rush hour...). If the trop area is "redeveloped", it is questionable whether there will be a market for it (especially given the economic situation, property taxes, etc.). Also, there are a lot of blighted areas in that region adn surrounding areas. That may detract buyers (it would me as I have a child). Not to mention, IF they found a market, the added burden on our infrastructure will be trying and the tax base won't be there to assist. And I am NOT against progress. I also think downtown has become a beautiful place over the last decade. I love it and I am quite proud of it. I am not elderly, I am not a "simpleton", and I am not short-sighted. I simply think that serious consideration needs to be given to the reality of our climate, what fans are willing to deal with to see a game (I agree about the poor odds of Tampa residents driving, parking and taking a boat across the bay to see a game), the added burden to our city and our citizens.

[Lana]

Other teams have outdoor stadiums in the heat. All it comes down to are a bunch of people who do not want the city to be considered "big league" but a has been. A city that cannot support a team. Do you think other business will not look at that? Who wants to be associated with a bunch of losers. The city is dying. Just pull the plug and be done with it.

Oh wait - St. Petersburg does not have free speech. People think that 1-I do not live there and 2-I cannot comment. My mistake.

[Dr_Dug]

Tina is correct. The question is can the Waterfront area support a Baseball teams parking .... the answer is NO.
The streets aren't updated.PERIOD.The ratio of AVAILABLE parking places after factoring other places of business and ownership brings the number into the low hundreds. If someone is expected to walk 15-20 mins., then that puts them right back at the TROP. The real question is, where EXACTLY will people be parking and what roads will be impacted?(Not everyone travels I-275)

[Dr_Dug]

Lana...you feeling alright?

[BABE]

i'm all for a downtown stadium but to quote someone above; 'It's too hot in Florida (in the summer)for outdoor baseball to thrive! (repeat)"

not to mention the hurricane season, one direct hit and kiss that sailboat roof goodbye.

[Ken P]

Has any one been to the Trop lately? It looks to me like it could last 1000 years. All that concrete and steel. There's no good excuse for tearing it down in my opinion. I think it's a great place for a game. I'm going tonight to see the Rays beat the Yankees in the air conditioning. Go Rays!

[Joel]

I am a 7 year season ticket holder and this will be my LAST year doing so. Mr. Kault, your team signed a 30 year lease on the Trop. Do the honorable thing sir, and keep your part of the bargain. Our city has done its part. I nor my family will ever patronize a Rays game again until you drop this matter. Every other house on my street including my own has a red "no new stadium" sign in the yard. You have divided the residents of our city for the last time. There will be no new stadium on our precious waterfront, period. The voters have ALREADY spoken and voted to designate Al Lang as part of our park system. PERIOD. END of STORY. Take your 150 million and tear the roof off the Trop and replace it with a sail. Problem solved. And honestly, it doesn't sound like the smartest business plan sir, turning your customers against each other so you may get richer off all of our backs. Not going to happen in my lifetime, I guarantee it.

And for those of you who oppose this plan, the first and most important thing you can do is STOP PATRONIZING THE RAYS until they drop their plan to ruin our waterfront. And tell them so!!

One last note to those of you who support this idea. What are you going to say to us in 10 years when this thing is built, the Rays still can't bring in the crowds, and Ole' Kault & Company move the team to a different market, leaving us holding the bag with a giant, empty ballpark on our waterfront and MILLIONS in debt....we were NEVER a "big league" city, and we never will be. Most of us natives like it that way. If you don't like that fact, I'll be glad to give you directions out of our town.

[Don Mott]

JudyToo at 1:45 you are pretty much right on. Proponents keep saying it is great for the city. You know what? Proponents said the same thing when the Trop was proposed. How great has that been? Can you see all of the tourists flocking downtown to see a Rays game? Do you see all of the new development going on in the area? It's really bustling there thanks to the Trop and MLB. The talk about it being a benefit for merchants is just that. Most games are on weekday nights. Who has the time to get off work and get downtown, spend 20 minutes or so looking for a parking spot, and then go to dinner or go shopping before the game starts? Once the game is over most everything will be closing and or shut down except the bars. But the bad guys will know where their money is so don't walk in the shadows. The best thing is the taxpayers get to pay for it all.

[get-smart]

You are right Joel. They already left us with an empty Al Lang stadium. I guess that was part of their plan. We need to leave some areas downtown open for the future.

[Eric62]

Attention: No one goes to a ballgame because it's in a cool stadium. OK, maybe once or twice, but people go to ballgame to see....wait for it....a ballgame. Why do you think such dumps as Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park are so hard to get into. It's the baseball, not the stadia.
(But, I gotta admit that new stadium is purty cool.)

[Nancy]

Yes 'get-smart', lets not forget what Mr. Kault and his great organization have ALREADY DONE to our fine city. St. Petersburg HAD (keyword HAD) a 90+ year tradition of Major League Spring Training @ Al Lang. NINETY YEARS!!!Guess what? Not anymore!! Why, you ask? Because the Rays MOVED THEIR SPRING TRAINING CAMP out of town in advance of this SCAM "proposal"...Nah, that's not fishy at all, is it???? The RAYS RUINED A 90 YEAR TRADITION IN OUR CITY, for their OWN BENEFIT!!! Think about the millions of fans from all over North America who came to St. Pete to spend a few weeks watching their home teams play @ Al Lang spring training games. Grapefruit leage, etc. THAT'S ALL GONE NOW, THANKS TO THE RAYS!!!! For this reason alone, they can go pound sand. I will NEVER go to another Rays game, EVER!!!

[Paul]

Joel, you do bring up a good point. I don't like the way the Rays and Kalt are creating a divide in our City. I see one of my neighbors has a sign in support of the stadium and I was thinking how I'd go over there and set them straight. That is obviously the wrong thing to do. I like my neighbors, heck they live in St Pete and have an old house just like me. Why is this 'divide' even being talked about? This is a great city, I like the people here and I really don't want to argue. I guess I'm quite upset about the way this 'deal' was brought to us and the complete rush job that is happening. It seems like something that should be slowed wayyyyy down and not jammed down our City and Council throats. I for one am against this project because of that. The rush and hush that is ensuing. The radical and dramatic changes to our waterfront that being talked about... the complete 'do over' on promises of the existing 'Trop' and how it just hasn't been the economic boom promised. I personally don't care if we are or are not a major league city. Hell, just look around, we are an incredible city, beaches, parks, water, museums, history, aesthetics, gardens, outdoor events... come on, you think the City will fail if the Rays leave? I highly doubt it.

[Dee]

Twenty-five years later where are the wiser heads who originally placed functionality over aestetic appeal and created a comfortable multi-use facility rather than something that is only good for selling picture postcards? Well, some of us are enjoying the 72 degree A/C while watching major league baseball (now that after 10 years the Rays are actually fielding a MAJOR LEAGUE team) half the nights during Central Florida's Tropical Rainy Season of mid-June through September. This summer when some of those horizontal rains are blowing from our almost daily thunder (and lightening) storms ask yourself wouldn't I rather be under the canvus of a partially covered statium right now with the mosquitos? Or, when it is not raining, wouldn't I rather be in the stiffling heat with 90% humidity (and 95 degrees minus the promised 5 degree cooling from giant spritzers is still stiffling)? Or, maybe I would prefer the tropical sunburn and sun in my eyes of an afternoon game? It is A/C that made Florida (an Arizona) habitable for 16 million new Floridians since 1950 (1950 Florida census = 2 million; now = 18 million). Only a New Yorker who doesn't live here year round would think life in Florida without A/C is not regressive! And, don't even get me started about the parking! If you really want to help the businesses in downtown St. Petersburg build a 20,000 car parking lot with FREE parking on the water front site. NO DOWNTOWN IN AMERICA WILL EVER BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH THE MALL UNTIL THEY ALSO HAVE ADEQUITE FREE PARKING!

[Kevin]

Paul & Joel I could not agree more. Nothing in my memory has ever been this divisive an issue in this great city. The Rays have a home, and if they no longer like it they can buy out of their contract and leave. I live in St. Petersburg not because of the Rays. This is not Tampa, nor should it ever want/need to be anything like Tampa. We are a much smaller city with no room to grow. People move here because it feels like a small town, with all the conveniences of a big city and yet without the big city hassles. I'd actually prefer if the Rays moved away and brought spring training back even if it's a different team. Again, this is St. Petersburg we're talking about. Not NYC, Boston or Baltimore. If you want a big league city feel, then for god's sake move to one and stop trying to turn St. Pete into freaking Boston!

[dk954]

Downtown St. Pete has come to life compared to what I remember it from growing up there. I think a stadium by the water would bring more to the atmosphere of the downtown area. The old stadium was something you drove by on I275 or drive by when going to downtown. If the people in Tampa don't want to come, maybe it'll be more for the people in Pinellas. Nobody seems to complain about having to drive to Tampa to go to a Bucs game. Why are people from Tampa such whiners about the drive? Just say you're not interested in baseball and that's that. Downtown St. Pete is such a great location compared to anywhere in Tampa. If you thought it was hot by the water in St. Pete, imagine how hot it would be somewhere in Tampa not near the water?

[Don Mott]

Is anyone besides me getting sick of these pop up ads at the bottom of the screen? Didn't mean to change the subject but I'm about done with it, let me minimize or turn it off forever. It is really aggravating. PS SPTimes I don't click on to ads or buy from advertisers who aggravate me.

[Simon]

Ian and Annette, you're using logic and common sense and there is no room for that here. This isn't exactly the wine and cheese crowd.

[John]

To add to Nancy's point, Spring Training at Al Lang Field did exponentially more for this city economicly than the Rays could ever do. Think about it. How many families vacationed in this area to escape the brutal winter up North and planned their vacation to coincide with spring training?? Those families stayed on our beaches, adding millions to our economy every year. They came back year after year, telling their friends up north how wonderful it was to stay on our beaches and still be able to take a short drive downtown, shop and watch their team train. Many of them moved here because they loved it so much. Now our beaches are turning into condo canyons because the mom & pop motels have lost much of their client base during the most important time of the year. Those "snowbirds" outspent Rays fans 100 to 1, and I can assure you that's a conservative figure. Who do you know that flies in for a Rays game? Who do you know that does anything more than drive to the Trop, pay parking fees, watch the game, get back in their cars and drive home? We have actually hurt ourselves financially by letting the Rays sneak our tradition out the back door and killing our most important revenue source, that being the tourist/spring training vacationer. Send the Rays packing and bring back Spring Training!!!

[Rick K]

JudyToo:

Hats off to you for the time and thought you put into your post. While I doubt I have as much time, I do want to weigh in with the following thoughts:

From my perspective, much of what you list is not a recitation of irrefutable facts, but a mixture of some facts, some intelligent guesses, some unlikely predictions, and some opinions.

For example, we do, in fact, know that the proposed financing for the new stadium calls for the use of future tax revenues generated by the proposed redevelopment of the Tropicana field site. You say that these new revenues could be used for city services, improving our police and fire departments, restoring community services like code enforcement personnel, etc. Of course, without the redevelopment of the site, there will not be any new taxes. And without the contribution to this community investment from those future taxes, the deal is likely to not get done.

It seems to me that it would be more fair to have a discussion about the likely impacts of two possible scenarios: One in which the City, county, Rays ownership, and a developer (of the Trop site) partner with one another to build a new waterfront stadium and redevelop the existing Tropicana Field location; and another scenario in which the Rays leave St. Petersburg all together sometime in the next five to six years.

Those are the two most likely scenarios. They are real. Pretending that there is no possibility that the Rays will leaving St Pete is just silly.

So a large part of this conversation should be about the two possible futures. One with a new waterfront stadium and a redeveloped property, and one with an empty/unused Trop.

For we KNOW that pro sports teams move. In fact, the Tampa Bay Lightning and Tampa Bay Storm both used to call the stadium that we now call Tropicana Field their home.

We know that teams can and do leave.

We know that decisions about how much a community will invest in professional sports venues involve a multitude of tradeoffs. We analyze how much money we'll spend to build and operate a stadium, and consider all the negatives that come with the deal and the presence of the team. And we contrast the costs and negatives with the enhancements to revenue (from increased taxes, increased retail spending, and the jobs from the team) and the attractiveness of our community (to residents, local and out-of-state tourists, and employers)

With regard to environmental impact of both redevelopment sites, we do not really KNOW what will happen. Those of us who are informed can reasonably judge that the abilities of environmental experts, city planners, and developers in this area is light years ahead of where it was two decades ago. It is probable that these two new developments will IMPROVE existing environmental conditions at both locations, and perhaps in other areas of downtown, also.

We know that boat traffic in the bay will be impacted. But we do not KNOW how. Those of us who have been in boats around similar waterfront ballparks in other parts of the world are justified in being excited about the likely improvements to the boating environment adjacent to downtown St. Pete.

While there will be changes, it is entirely realistic that we can use the redevelopment of the waterfront site as a chance to IMPROVE boating around/near the Pier/downtown.

We do not KNOW that traffic will be worse and that parking will also be worse. In fact, both traffic and parking are things that can be discussed and improved. As almost every home game takes place at such a time as to have virtually no impact on rush hour traffic, it is completely SILLY to assert that we know the new design (with the redevelopment of the Trop site) will create fewer downtown parking spaces and worse traffic. As it is now, there is virtually NO non-Trop event for which it makes sense to park at the Trop site. The new stadium plan calls for the ADDITION of new parking spaces to downtown.

Plus, it is highly likely that people attending games will CHOOSE to park farther away and make an event of getting from their parking location to the stadium (stopping in shops, restauarants and bars along the way, spending money downtown that is currently spent in the suburbs).

When you say that we know the Trop works, you are actually stating an opinion as facts. While we know that the Trop does do what it was designed to do, we do not KNOW how much the Trop contributes to lost attendance and lost income (both for the team and for the community). What we do know is that the business experts who derive their livlihood from analyzing such things have determined that the new stadium design/location is likely to increase attendance and also increase revenue (to the team and the community). Plus, the Trop Field redevelopment will also bring residents, jobs, increased spending, and increased tax revenue to the City.

On one hand, we have the possibility of an empty stadium and a waterfront park which generate no revenue, provide almost no jobs, and contribute nothing to tax coffers. On the other hand, we have a vibrant waterfront park that increases revenue connected to pro baseball and also enhances downtown's draw as an entertainment destination (beyone just attending the game), combined with a several-block area of new residences, businesses, retail and entertainment venues.

To say that we KNOW the Trop works ignores the fact that it does not work as well as other options. Why should the people of St. Pete be excluded from considering the question about what is best for our community?

We know that downtown open air ball parks work. We know that waterfront parks in the major leagues become true tourist destinations. As it is, practically no one comes to St. Pete because they want to see the Trop. There are a certain number of people who come here to follow visiting teams and there are a very small niche of baseball travelers who try to visit every park in every city. But the waterfront park in San Francisco, for example, draws tourists to the bay area PRIMARILY because of the stadium.

That is likely to be the case in St. Pete with a new waterfront stadium, as well.

The amount owed on the Trop is what it is. If the team leaves St. Pete, they may pay some or even all of that debt. But if that happens the city will lose out on sales tax revenue from the 81 home games and all the economic impact of having those games in St. Pete.

On the other hand, if this new stadium/Trop field redevelopment happen, that entire existing debt could be retired (albeit replaced by an extended debt for the new stadium) and the presence of the Rays in downtown could likely be prolonged well past a likely 2011/2012 departure from the city if the deal doesn't get done.

Plus, we will also get more downtown residents, employees, and businesses from the redevelopment site.

For many of us, THAT alone is enough to make the deal worthwhile.

Many people think that trading one ball park for the other will be roughly a wash, but that the chance to add a very large redevelopment to downtown that will bring more residents, more visitors, more workers and more money downtown will be a terrific addition to the city's core.

Others disagree.

Which is why we should vote.

You draw attention to worries about cost overruns, public financing, possible negative envirnonmental impact, and other potential negatives. Other people see OTHER negatives.

And other people (me among them) see far more positives than negatives.

We live in a democrative society. Let's let the people decide.

[Don Mott]

I won't go into all of your rambling since one is enough. Do you not think if the Rays left the city could or would not develop the Trop site? That is what you insinuate.

[Joel]

Rick K, sorry to burst your long-winded bubble, but the citizens have already decided this. They already voted to make Al Lang part of St. Petersburg's park system to permanently (look that word up if you're not sure what it means) preserve it from future development of ANY kind. So what exactly do you not understand about that fact?

[Don Mott]

By the way then all of the tax money would belong to the city/taxpayers

[Don Mott]

I might add Rick K you are stating opinions as facts just as you accused JudyToo of doing.

[Don Mott]

I might add Rick K you are stating opinions as facts just as you accused JudyToo of doing.

[Dr_Dug]

Rick K... your not listening. There's not enough room for more people downtown.
And what about the promises that were made when the Trop was built? The same promises that.....more people will come, more money, a re-developed downtown, great ballpark for the people...everyone is gonna love it...blah blah blah. In business,which is what baseball is...the idea would get down. LOSING TEAM,UN-HAPPY FANS,BIG DEBT ON BALLFIELD,DOZENS OF BROKEN PROMISES...NO LOAN!!!

[Susan]

Lana, give it up. The area doesn't want a pathetic baseball side. Maybe had the owners spent the money on the team rather than taking it as income to keep the pockets warm, the side would have developed a local fan base. As it is, the Rays are rubbish and will continue to be a joke. Rays: Leave town, you bring nothing to the community, you want a free ride when we have more important issues, and no one can be bothered to watch the drivel you play.

Piss off, and don't come back!

[Craig B]

Posted by John F. "If they're going to spend half a billion to build the stupid thing they could at least be called THE ST. PETE RAYS."

So then the following should also be put into effect? Irving Cowboys, Landover Redskins, East Rutherford Giants, East Rutherford Jets, Anaheim Angels, Arlington Rangers, Orchard Park Bills, Foxboro Patriots....... I think you get the idea. Teams use the metro area in their names to maximize a fan base. It'd be stupid for these teams to use the actual, physical town where they play.

[Jonny]

Rick K, the people have decided. Why do you think the Rays play in an empty stadium? No one want to watch them! Floriduuuhhhh indeed.

[scott]

In ten years they just tell us the need a dome stadium because it's just too darn hot.

[Lana]

Bring nothing to the community Susan? What a little fantasy world you live in. If they left what would you have then? You just don't get it. But go ahead - let them leave. Why would they want to be with a bunch of losers anyway? How many people outside of baseball even know of St. Petersburg? Lets see...could of have Tampa International Airport, could of had Tampa Stadium and the Bucs, could of have the Lightning...yet no. You actually, finally manage to get a team and now what? Whine, whine and more whine. Like I said - within a decade or two there will be no more St. Petersburg. Get used to it. Tampa West.

[Joe T.]

This has to be the most ridiculous statement ever posted:

"Plus, it is highly likely that people attending games will CHOOSE to park farther away and make an event of getting from their parking location to the stadium (stopping in shops, restauarants and bars along the way, spending money downtown that is currently spent in the suburbs."

[Jon McPhee]

Whoa, Lana -- Tampa West, hey? Maybe that would just be poetic justice for the Mayor's and City Council's questionably legal grab, via "annexation," of places like Tierra Verde, just because some schmuck developer wants to avoid existing zoning and the will of the people, and stack the place with 50-story structures for the cash benefit of the already-rich few.

This blooming war is over the character of this area, the narrow and almost built-out Pinellas County and St. Pete. We all sense that something is pretty wrong here, but have different takes on what that is. There are some who believe in the magical power of "development," ANY "development" with money from ANY source floating around, to create economic opportunity (generally for the few.) There are others undecided, trying to hear some truth in all the hype and hyperbole. Then there are some who remember lies and promises from previous "magical developments," and some who have this curious notion that business ought to pay for its own plant, like those folks have to pay their own debts and taxes.

Someone referred to the price some communities have paid, out of public funds, to attract certain kinds of business, like automotive plants and high-tech. Way too many of them have discovered that the bidding wars between cities for that kind of business have been "rewarded" by unsupportable cash and public-service drains, imported labor, and ultimately departure to other even cheaper areas like Mexico or Malaysia, leaving big old messes for the "old fuddy-duddies" to fix out of a suddenly crashed tax base.

What's fun in watching this controversy develop is how the tribal parts of our brains come into play so quickly, and we psych ourselves up with chants and raise-the-ante battle cries and waving of naked fannies, and form up our battle lines and get ready to charge with clubs and spears. What's really cool is that, like the old Imperial British scouts and the present CIA and such entities, the carpetbaggers who stand to profit from the mutual exhaustion of the warring tribes. They just stand back in the woods, and keep whispering in ears, and egging on, and bribing and waiting for the bodies to cool.

Enjoying yourselves, guys? I know you are.

[syrah]

I find it amusing at the least, the people who have been the most vocal are the same people who were in support of the Albert Whittied Airport. Look at the names of the POWW committee. Again St. Petersburg is going to influenced by the vocal minority. Please people look at the facts and even if you do not agree with the position of the Tampa Bay Rays we have voting for a reason. Let the citizens of St. Petersburg and/or Pinellas County vote for an issue as important as this. The negative advertising done by the POWW committee has done nothing positive in this debate. Let the people have the facts and LET THEM VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last time I checked St. Petersburg was still a democracy. Most people who live in this community are the silect majority, but this issue may finally push them to the forefront.

PS: The Airport still only benefits at the most 1000 people. Do the math on how many people live in St. Petersburg

[Don Mott]

While you are at it do the math on how many people attend Rays games and how much it will cost the taxpayers.

[God]

If all the old people in St. Pete would finally die, we would have enough fertilizer to grow beautiful flowers on the Dome's current site. Build the waterfront stadium.

My son's right, you don't want to make me mad.

[God]

If all the old people in St. Pete would finally die, we would have enough fertilizer to grow beautiful flowers on the Dome's current site. Build the waterfront stadium.

My son's right, you don't want to make me mad.

[JudyToo]

I want to vote when I know exactly what I am voting for (or against). So far I am against because....

"Please, just one factual reason why we should do this. No poppycock, now. Just facts."

Here is one irrefutable fact:

"We do KNOW that the Rays have 20 years remaining on their lease at the Trop. Why can't we take a year, get all the answers, and vote for this when we are voting for four council members and a new mayor? They are trying to cram this down our throats this year because there are no local elections."

[Thom]

Mast and Arch" retractable roof design will provide a shelter from sun & rain and capture bay breezes while retaining the character of an open air ballpark & preserving sweeping views of the skyline and waterfront.
Air conditioned concourses and cool zones will be provided to maximize comfort for ALL fans.
The state-of-the-art roof can deploy in 6-8 minutes.
The ballpark will offer a variety of new seating options at reasonable price points for the general public, including families. Only a VERY SMALL percentage of seats will be on a Club Level or in Luxury Suites.
There will be a large number of eating and drinking options in the new ballpark, including a two-story bar with a large outdoor deck down the right field line overlooking the field and the bay.
New public open spaces surrounding the ballpark will link waterfront destinations and provide a forum for civic, cultural, community and entertainment gatherings and events throughout the year.
Public art, creative water features and innovative landscaping will ring the ballpark, creating distinctive amenities for all to enjoy.
The waterfront esplanade along Bayshore Drive will be transformed into a game-day amenity with activities, food vendors and entertainment.

[Bruno]

It's funny how people will complain about walking 1/2 mile to go to a baseball game but those same losers will walk 10 miles, in the sun, at Disney, EPCOT or any of the other amusement parks that ironically, flourish during the hottest months of the year. It's just typical spite. If they would read the facts, they would know that it would be a great thing for this area.

[get-smart]

Thom you seem to know a lot about stadium design and comfort. Are you an architect-engineer? So when the retractable roof is deployed and the batter hits a pop fly ball and it hits the roof, is that a double or a triple. What happens when the pop fly ball becomes invisible against the roof? Is that an automatic out? I would like to know what the rules are before I vote.

[Walgreens]

Thom Isbon

[Bobby Fenton]

I have to say it's pretty stunning to read some of these comments and try to figure out how anything gets done, ever, with so many of the malcontents we have to contend with. VOCAL MINORITY was a great way to put it.

If you're against the stadium for any of the valid reasons stated above, or among the group that believes it's all happening too fast and want to take a closer look at it, well, agree or disagree, those are all perfectly valid opinions.

But all of these people who are just so distrustful of everybody else who has a plan, or who simply howl about stock complaints like parking, weather, etc, all of which ARE BEING ADRESSED IF YOU'D JUST PAY ATTENTION BY THE WAY- well, those people make me sick. There are tons of them in this thread.

I look at a post like Rick K's, and the guy just gets shouted down. He made a very even-minded case I thought. If you're not sold, then fine. That's what the vote is for. But some of you people sound like you're about to choke on the blood and venom you're trying to spew forth, and half of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about as evidenced by the comments. St. Pete doesn't have the best reputation to begin with, and maybe you guys just don't care, but this is why. Lighten up, LISTEN, and then make an informed decision instead of just screaming at the top of your lungs all of the reasons why something can't or won't happen.

[Bobby Fenton]

And while I know it's a matter of opinion, and you can't technically tell someone they're wrong, the people who keep saying that the Trop is completely fine and that we shouldn't try to do ANYTHING new are an absolute hinderance to all of us, both for and against the stadium. They need to be taken out of the conversation because they're clearly not interested in improvement or progress at all.

Anyone with any common sense at all understands the team simply cannot and will not be playing there a decade from now. All of these Trop worshippers have either forgotten what a baseball experience is supposed to be like or never had one in the first place. Simply stunning. Democracy is a beautiful and scary thing all at once. Everybody, and I do mean everybody has a right to a license to vote, even if they barely deserve a license to think.

[Rick K]

Some follow-up thoughts.

Don Mott: I think you see parts of this issue in terms of false choices. While I am not insinuating that NOTHING would be done with either site if the Rays were to leave St. Pete, I am certain that the attractiveness of redevelopment (of the type that has been proposed) for the Trop property will be greatly reduced. While things like this cannot be proven the way that the existence of gravity can be proven, my economics training convinces me that the existence of a downtown ball park and the economic spillover of the team's presence downtown have contributed to the rebirth of downtown St. Pete. Many business owners and residents I know who have located downtown admit that the team's presence downtown contributed to their decision(s).

So the question before us, in my view, is to decide what type of future we want for downtown.

Some of us see a St. Pete with a new waterfront ballpark and several blocks of new residences, offices, retail stores, restaurants and entertainment venues as a desirable future for our city. Others do not. Which is why we should vote.

Joel: You are right. Citizens voted. And we are going to vote again. I will bet that we vote multiple times in the coming decades about many different issues that affect the citizens of St. Pete. There are no permanent votes. Even the US Constitution can be amended. I am not sure why you think we ought not vote each time circumstances change, but I find your assertion to be anti-democratic.

DrDug: Your assertion is incorrect. And it seems slightly silly, too.

There is plenty of room downtown for more people, by every measure I can think of. (I can't think of any known measure that indicates otherwise). You seem to be asserting your opinion about population density as a irrefutable factual conclusion. I admit that a central part of the question about this redevelopment is what we want downtown to be like ten years from now.

Those who think there are enough people downtown will probably not support adding several thousand new downtown residents. Those of us who welcome more people downtown are as excited about redeveloping the Trop site as we are about the new waterfront ballpark.

Joe T: You have also added silliness to this conversation, when you said, "This has to be the most ridiculous statement ever posted.."

The future I describes is PRECISELY what happens many times a year in cities like Boston, Chicago, Denver, Atlanta, Cincinnati, San Francisco, New Orleans, and elsewhere. Urban stadiums that are adjacent to vibrant districts or corridors populated with restaurants and bars and stores enjoy far more popularity than do isolated stand-alone stadiums. There is nothing even a little bit ridiculous about my assertion. That you think otherwise is, well, ridiculous.

Don Mott (again): The "math" that most of us will do about the questions before us (which are not just about the Rays ballpark, but also about adding signficant new development to downtown) do not stop and end with the people who attend Rays games (or even the larger number of people who attend ALL events at the Trop). The question is, do we want a downtown area that includes the redeveloped areas, or not. The answer encompasses EVERYTHING about the redevelopments. One need not like baseball to like the idea of tearing down the Trop and turning it's acres of paved lots into something more vibrant and livable, while moving the team a few blocks away to a different venue which might also provide some other benefits that have nothing whatever to do with baseball. ON the other hand, someone may love baseball but value the idea of having OPEN space on the Al Lang site more highly.

Which is why we should vote.

JudyToo: It seems you are saying it is a fact that people are trying to shove this idea down our throats. You also seem to be claiming to know the motives behind this.

I do not think these two assertions are facts.

I think it is a FACT that the Rays ownership has ASKED the City to consider their proposal.

If you are too confused or think you have not heard enough facts and opinions that would cause you to look favorably upon the proposed redevelopments, then vote "no." But please don't try to stop those of us who think we have plenty of time to make a decision about our community's future from voting.

Bobby: I agree with you.

It seems to me that many of the "anti" people who have posted here keep coming down on the side of "do not let the people vote."

Personally, I believe we should not fear democracy.

[Jon McPhee]

Rick J, nice straw man issue. Yes, THE PEOPLE should vote. No, they should not vote in ignorance.

There's more than enough examples of "voting" based on "Read My Lips: No New Taxes" imagery, followed up by enormous debt and the almost infinite tax burdens on future generations to pay off the indulgences of the present. Last time anyone checked, the Trop is still a net loss, still not paid for, and still not the center of rampant development that "everyone knew" it would become based on the pretty picures and promises of yore.

Based on St. Pete's history on public land use decisions, I would be much more afraid that the Mayor and City Council would pull a fast one and jigger the outcome. Did we not develop a voter-approved Vision 2020 plan? Did the City Council not promise to carry through on a commitment to keep Al Lang land a park? Did these folks not keep the back story on their deal with the Rays quiet until after the last Council election?

Them as thought up the idea of democracy knew the risks that an uninformed electorate posed to the ideal of a just society. Vote, okay, but don't vote from ignorance -- know just what you are buying, and what the few stand to gain at the expense of the many.

I don't see much effort to deny that the Rays management is a bunch of carpetbaggers, and that this whole project freeloads off the piggy banks of Pinellas County and St. Pete citizens.

[Paul]

Do not bring this to a vote. Yes, I am saying exactly that. It is a sham deal, everyone knows it, and if you take a drive around the City, you'll clearly see the thousands of 'no new stadium' signs. Doesn't take a genius to get the feeling that ALOT of people throughout the entire City do not want this.

That should be reason enough for giving the Rays the big middle finger and telling them 'you signed the lease'.

The waterfront is for parks. St Pete is a GREAT CITY! An awesome city that gets accolades and awards and is viewed as something other cities want to emulate.

Don't give away our City land so that out of state mega-millionaires can make huge profits.

Many of us do not care about the Rays and would likely have a going away party, if/when they should choose to leave.

[Mike]

Rick K has it nailed. (You know you are in the ballpark, pardon the pun, when McPhee calls you a "straw man". Kudos.) Let us vote. Also, note all the new signs up that ask to do just that! Uh-oh, POWW!

Paul ... who are you to suggest that people should not have a vote on this? That smacks of totalitarianism. We have no place for that in America.

And Jon McPhee (who, it seems, may not work ...), thanks for the concern about our knowledge of the issue. But it seems that ignorance has nothing to do with having the right to vote. If it were, we wouldn't have had Bush for one term, let alone two. Don't be so elitist as to assume you know what's best for the community. Presumably, the tenets of democracy were designed as such to let the voters come to precisely that judgment, whatever the outcome may be.

The opponents of this stadium hate democracy and hate America! (See how silly hyperbole is!)

Let us vote!

Or are you scared all those red signs just represent a very vocal minority?

[Rick K]

Jon:

It's not a straw man argument. Many people would prefer to NOT have us vote.

Many others (apparently, you are among this group) would prefer to call all who disagree with them "ignorant." Often, they do this while embracing a certain amount of ignorance.

Take for example your very large ignorant assertion that "the Trop is still a net loss."

That is not true.

One can only form the ignorant and incorrect conclusion that the Trop is a net loss if one ignores all the positive income created by the Trop. Using that type of math, it easy to incorrectly label nearly anything as a net loss.

On the other hand, if one examines the financing associated with the history of the Trop with a broader mind, a very different picture emerges.

First, an intellegent analyst MUST acknowledge that a significant portion of the money "spent" to develop the current Trop site was spent for other community objectives that may not have been attained without the development. Several blocks of blighted slums were eliminated to clear the area for the Trop. The residents of that neighborhood were relocated from substandard housing to decent, safe, and sanitary housing in other parts of the city.

These urban renewal and resident relocation aspects of the Trop development were desired by the City (and the State and the Feds) quite apart from the stadium development. The costs of these social programs were significant, and must be considered apart from calculations about how much it cost to "build" the stadium.

Consider the alternative. The city could have developed a stadium (as the Rays are now proposing) on the site of Al Lang field. They wouldn't have relocated any residential occupants, construction would have been cheaper and faster, and the city would have, at the completion of the project, ended up with a new stadium and several blocks of urban blight that they would still need to deal with.

Instead of persuing that approach, a decision was made to use the occasion of building the new stadium as a catlyst for urban renewal. This is important for a couple of reasons.

First, prudent cost accounting would require that the social spending that was intentionally folded into the stadium project be subtracted out as costs that had nothing to do with building a stadium and everything to do with persuing multiple community improvements in one fell swoop.

Second, it is ignorant to completely discount the positive effects these programs had upon the city and its citizens.

Another area of benefits and costs connected to the current stadium is related to the environmental cleanup of the site. Almost all of the site was private property. Many of the parcels had environmental issues which very likely would have gone uncorrected. The city (again with the urging and cooperation of the state and feds) used the occasion of stadium construction to remediate some signficant environmental contamination.

The benefits of this are obvious, if not easily calculated. The costs, however, also need to subtracted out of the cost based on the principle of substitution which tells us that if the city had built the stadium at Al Lang field, the environmental contamination in the old neighborhood would not have been corrected with public money.

There are other examples of ways in which the stadium construction was used to pursue multiple objectives of local government, but having provided two clear examples, I will move along.

The other glaring ignorance in your claim that the Trop is a net loss is your disregard for contributions to income, quality of life, and development momentum in the city's core.

If we measure the additional sales tax, employment tax, and property tax revenues from the development of the stadium and its operation for the last 15 years, we find that the additional tax revenue far exceeds the amount of public money spent on the stadium. (This is true even if you commit the error of considering the urban renewal costs as part of the stadium costs)

Additionally, there is no question that the existence of the stadium downtown has contributed to the rebirth of downtown. Dozens of business decision makers have attributed the presence of a downtown stadium (and the Rays) as a positve factor that influenced their decision to locate downtown.

The financing package of virtually EVERY development that has been built in downtown in the past 20 years has used the stadium/team as an example of the economic strength of downtown and a testament to the projected future growth of the downtown market.

To suggest that there has not been rampant development in St. Pete since the stadium was greenlighted is to depart so far from reality as to defy a reasonable reply.

You can pretend that the downtown stadium has had no impact on downtown, but you will be bathing in ignorant waters.

As for your assertion that Rays management (by which I think you probably mean 'ownership') are "a bunch of carpetbaggers," I encourage you to refrain from name calling (and using rather meaningless but racially charged labels, to boot). Instead, try to stick to rational facts or reasoned opinions supported by facts.

Or, if giving unsupported opinions, feel free to tell us what you feel. We welcome such contributions. We are less enthusiastic about your insistence on offering untrue claims as factual conclusions.

The owners of the Rays have committed to spend HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars (to buy the team, to operate the team, to help build the new stadium, and to invest in our community). They aren't freeloading in any sense of that word.

Further, I believe that we can reasonably estimate the financial benefits of this new proposal. And the way I do the math, the benefits far outweigh the amount of public money we will spend.

The beauty of democracy is that everyone gets to do their own math. You can scoff that those who don't accept your judgements and opinions are ignorant fools, but opinion will have very little to do with what happens with respect to these proposals.

[Rick K]

Working on a long post while being interuppted multiple times by work is flirting with disaster.

My final point to Jon was ruined by the exclusion of a word or two....

I meant to say that Jon's opinion that those who do not see things his way are ignorant will not have much impact upon what happens in the City.

[Joel]

FACT - The voters have already spoken and the city council has agreed to protect Al Lang as park land...what is the point of voting on something we've already decided on? Just because YOU don't like the outcome doesn't mean we HAVE to vote again.

FACT - The Rays moved their Spring Training out of Al Lang for the sole purpose of this proposal disguised as "wanting to build our fan base" while destroying a 90 year tradition of Spring Training in this city, thus causing untold economic hardship to the city & local busineses that counted on the vacationing "snowbirds" who came here in droves, for DECADES, to see their teams train & spend a week on the beach, and who actually spent money in our city.

FACT - The proposed stadium does not fit in the proposed location without changing the landscape of downtown. Irregardless of environmental concerns.

FACT - The Rays signed a 30 year lease on the TROP, not a new waterfront stadium, the TROP. They knew exactly what they were getting in advance.

FACT - The "vocal minority" opposed to this is actually a vocal MAJORITY. The proponents are often just paid shills for the Rays. Count the average attendence of a game in contrast to the city's population if you have trouble understanding this one.

FACT - We are in a recession & housing slump which does not make any financial sense to begin a massive new housing/retail development/gamble on contaminated land in a run-down part of downtown that was SUPPOSED to have been revitilized by...you guessed it..the Rays!! FACT

FACT - The Trop & MLB were supposed to do all the things they're now saying about the new stadium, (revitilazation around the Trop) and ZERO of it has come to fruition beyond Fergs. FACT.

FACT - "If you build it, they will come" has not worked out for the Rays who have consistently one of the lowest attendence records in MLB. FACT

FACT - This is NOT Boston, NYC, Baltimore or DC and it never will be.

FACT - The Rays have yet to come up with any clear financing plan to present the city, yet they're already trying to force a referendum before we even know those FACTS. Insane.

FACT - Regardless of what YOU think, the residents of Bayfront Tower and Signature DO have a right to peacefull enjoyment of their homes on weeknights downtown without 5 million candlepower worth of lights & tens of thousands of watts of audio blasting in their bedroom windows. They were here 1st. And no, I don't live in either building.

FACT - The future of the sailing center, the grand prix and other downtown events/services are all unknowns at this time, but they're still trying to force a referendum down our throats before we get all the FACTS!!

FACT - Only a fraction of the citizens of St. Petersburg even follow the Rays. This is clearly evidenced by the attendence. Hence the majority are opposed to this.

FACT - No comprehensive traffic/congestion study has been completed that addresses emergency vehicles ability to navigate expediently to/from downtown hospitals during pre/post game times where minutes can save someone's life.

FACT - No environmental study has been completed on the impact of filling part of the marina much less the contamination levels capped by asphalt at the Trop (read - Gas Plant) site to make it safe to live & work there, yet they're still trying to force a referendum down our throats before we know all the FACTS.

FACT - History has proven time and time again that a new stadium does not draw bigger crowds for more than the first year. Only a winning team can do that.

FACT - The city has made no indication that it would require the Rays to sign a 99 year or longer lease on their new playground, protecting our city from the team moving to a new market in 5 or 10 years, when they realize that the Trop was never the problem in the first place and leave us holding the bag for a giant, empty waterfront ballpark that we'll be paying for for decades to come.

FACT - Read the story yesterday in this newspaper where the city wants to begin charging more $$ to event organizers who bring REAL arts & culture to our city like Blues Fest, Rib Fest, Taste of Pinellas, Mainsail Arts Festival, SPIFFS, etc...the promotor of Blues Fest has already said they'll pack up and leave town if this happens. The city can't even afford to chip in city services any longer to support these great events that bring REAL CROWDS to downtown. And instead, you want to finance a half-billion dollar stadium so 17,000 people can look at the water (in the dark) during their baseball game? The absolute definition of insanity, right there.

FACT - There will be no waterfront stadium.

[Opinions are like ...]

"Only a fraction of the citizens of St. Petersburg even follow the Rays. This is clearly evidenced by the attendence. Hence the majority are opposed to this."

Really? Let's apply this logic to other issues.

"Only a fraction of the citizens of America even follow the Iraq War. This is clearly evidenced by polls. Hence the majority are opposed to us winning the war."

"Only a fraction of the citizens of America even care about the environment. This is clearly evidenced by consumer purchases. Hence the majority are opposed to conservation."

"Only a fraction of the citizens of Florida even care about democracy. This is clearly evidenced by voter turnout every November. Hence the majority are opposed to freedom and liberty."

Your logic is flawed.

Just remember that the financial plan is being put together and any council vote on having a referendum will require submission of said plan, a priori. You act like the Rays have completed all their tasks yet. The preliminary environmental studies are in the process of being completed, right now, as well. FACT.

There is so much more information to come, yet the smear brigade thinks they know it all ...

[Joel]

Opinions are like....Funny, you can only find one of my points to attack with absolutely ridiculous comparisons to a war and global warming???? Seriously??? Go back and tell your boss Mr. Kalt it's not looking good for your scam. Have the Times pull your IP address, I can bet it's coming out of the Rays' office. Why so afraid to use your real name? Nothing I stated was "smear". Oh, by the way, logic and facts are two very different things. You sound like a neo-con.

[Joe Six Pack]

"FACT - This is NOT Boston, NYC, Baltimore or DC and it never will be. "

and as long as there are short-sighted nimrods in this town who think that way, this city will continue to be little more than God's waiting room

[Joel]

And Rick K, you are a hypocrite. You continue spewing this democracy nonsense ad-nauseum. Yet you forget one important fact. The voters have already spoken. The MAJORITY voted to make the Al Lang site part of the waterfront park system. In your twisted democracy, you're trying to say the voices of those voters no longer count, simply because YOU and people like you don't agree with their decision? How is that democracy? The majority have already spoken. Period.

You can argue that "things have changed", where new ideas and circumstances have presented the need for another vote. So let's apply your fellow "shill" blogger "Opinions are like..."'s logic to that argument, then the entire country, based on current and past approval ratings, should have been able to re-vote for a new president once we discovered "new evidence" that Bush is a complete incompetent moron. Doesn't work like that, my frined.

And to "opinions are like..." I say this. If all these studies, financing plans, etc are not even complete yet as you claim, then please tell me the logic in trying to force a referendum on the Nov 08 ballot before we even have these facts to make an informed decision?? Usually it works the other way around, as in you get all the facts FIRST, and THEN consider putting it to a referendum, AFTER having a reasonable period of time to dissimilate those studies/plans, etc. What's the rush?? I'll tell you what the rush is, they want to jam this through on this election year's ballot based on "hype", when no elected offical's job is on the line. If you're seriously OK with that, I truly pity you.

[Rick K]

Joel:

Please ease up on the name calling. Particularly the mis-labeling of my stance. In your post, you manage to call me a couple of names. You also call other people names.

I am not even slightly undemocratic in calling for as many votes as the people want on whatever the people want to vote on. I do not call for a limitation of votes, period.

There is nothing slightly undemocratic about what I want.

The notion that a group of citizens can vote on something, and no future votes may ever again be held to revisit the previous question is absurd, undemocratic, and foolish.

If we followed this logic, we'd still have slaves, women couldn't vote, and Al Gore would have never been able to do whatever it is he claimed to do in Congress to bring about the internet....

Why must you, Joel, call me a shill? When you do so you are being absurd, and revealing much about yourself.

Here is the bottom line Joel:

I love the vision for these paired redevelopment projects, and, based upon my education, professional and life experience, and my study of the proposals, I already know enough to convince me that I will probably vote yes, unless something comes up in the next six months that I find to be unacceptable.

This irritates you.

You, on the other hand, will probably vote no, no matter when the vote is held.

You are the classic fraidy cat whose argument does not persaude the majority and insists on everlasting debate instead of letting the people choose.

(Notice how I called you a name. The difference between us is that there is a reasonable basis for my choice)

The people have plenty of time to evaluate this.

Those who are already against these proposals will not likely change their minds, ever. We should not let these people set the date of the vote.

What we should do is have a vote in November, six months from now. There will be more than ample time for voters to gather whatever information they want. Many voters will not want to gather much information. And that is also okay.

In fact, it is the beauty of democracy. Everyone gets to vote however they want for whatever reason they want.

Some can vote "no" because they distrust politicians and hate rich people and don't care for baseball and want large tracts of undeveloped land downtown. Some can vote "yes" because they like the proposals and think the city would be better off with them.

You can become agitated that someone who does not vote the same way as you did not consider the information you want them to consider. But that is really none of your business.

Let's vote.

[mrclean]

Rick K . Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! You & your pseudonyms are nothing more than a paid shill for Kalt.

Here is my reason, I don't want to destroy the beautiful downtown waterfront and don't want to further enrich these greedy NY Goldman Sachs investment bankers who became wealthy by aiding and abetting the outsourcing of our American jobs to China and $200/bbl oil

You talk about democracy: The fact is, the Rays and Mayor keep it a secret and deprived us of an important issue that needed to be aired for our election of our new city council members. I guess the mayor and friends didn't want to take a chance that any of the city council candidates declare themselves opposed to the stadium and God Forbid win.

So much for democracy!

[Rick K]

Or Maybe, Mr Clean, regardless of what you THINK happened. or what did happen, or what you think the motives were, we are still going to get a chance to vote.

After a year of considering the ideas, the people of St. Pete will vote.

Sadly there are many who wish that election wouldn't happen.

[Don Mott]

Rick K, As in most of your commentary you are qualifying unsubstantiated opinion for fact. May I point out to you the public will not vote unless the City decides to hold a referendum. As I understand it this will not be done until all of the financial aspects are addressed. No vote has been scheduled yet you insist we will vote?

Thank God the people of Tampa voted to build Raymond James Stadium. I think before Raymond James Stadium the Buc's were horrible just like the Ray's have been for the last 10 years. Just imagine if the Buc's left in 1998 because they didn't get a new stadium. Tampa Bay wouldn't have won a world championship! Maybe the LA Bucs would have. How bad would that have been? I would hate to see the Carolina Ray's will a World Series five years from now. All because you old farts can't walk 6-10 blocks, are worried about our beautiful waterfront, theres to much traffic i cant make the AARP discount @ Sonny's, and i cant stand the sound of the fireworks going off after every Rays home Win!

On the issue of the Ray's leaving Al Lang st