Times/Bay News 9 poll preview: Parking will be a huge problem, voters say

As debate rages over a proposed waterfront baseball stadium in St. Petersburg, most everyone agrees on one point: Downtown lacks the necessary parking.

According to an exclusive St. Petersburg Times/Bay News 9 poll to be released Sunday, 82 percent of the city's voters think parking would be a huge problem.

The poll, which surveyed 601 St. Petersburg voters May 27-28 and has a margin of error of plus or minus four percentage points, was aimed primarily at determining whether voters think the proposal should be placed on a November ballot, and whether they support a new stadium.

Check the St. Petersburg Times or Bay News 9 starting Sunday for stories detailing the results. On Monday, log on to the Times’ stadium blog, Ballpark Frankness, to see and comment on the poll results.

Comments

[Rays Fan]

There is a lack of adequate parking for a downtown stadium. Perhaps they can bus people from lots around the city?

I'm sick of hearing attendance is down at the Trop. I went to get tickets for the games this weekend and there was a line 20 deep and when I got to the window I couldn't get good seats because they're near sell out.

Shut up Rays owners and St. Pete Times - people go to the Trop, but you have to win.

[Dr_Dug]

Stand up St Pete... Our Mayor and Council have Rays t-shirts on under thier clothes. How many red signs does a bad deal need...? Take a drive around St.Pete and you'll see..!
NO NEW WATERFRONT STADIUM

[Steve Lange]

This is no surprise to those of us who have read and studied all of the parking reports and know the development codes as we do.

82% ???? I thought it might be higher.

(Thanks to the Times for performing this poll at this time and publishing the results "PRIOR" to June 5th. Thank you."

My question of the day for anyone to answer is:

The Rays intend to park 11,950 cars, off-site, in "shared parking". This includes, by a City parking code formula, around 330 Handicap Parking Spaces which must be placed within the same zoning designation as the new stadium, and that is DC-3, and these handicap spaces must be within 300 feet of the front door of the stadium.

Since no DC-3 zoning district lies west of First Street this is a huge problem for the Rays.

And since 330, 12' wide, handicap parking spaces with 5' wide side aisles will need approximately 3.3 acres of floor area or surface land located west of First Street the Rays will need to find, purchase and build a multi-story structured parking facility to meet this Federal and local requirement.

Here is the question:

Has anyone heard one peep out of the Rays on just how they are going to solve this problem let alone pay for it?

Not even our Mayor, can avoid, violate or excuse FEDERAL and STATE HANDICAP requirements.

Quite a dilema. Just how will the Rays propose to solve this one?

Aaron S.: Any thoughts?

[CraigJ]

Rays Fan, not sure what you mean by good seats near sell out?

Most of the seats at the Trop are good for the price.

If it was near sell out then there are about 20,000 people buying tickets and not showing up.

If you want to be a Rays Fan, buy season tickets or a package deal.

[Rex]

Why all the nay-sayers? Did anyone stop and wonder how the Saint Pete Grand Prix manages to accomodate 100,000 visitors every year? We went this year (on a Sat) - got in, parked, and left with ZERO problems.

Quit belly-aching already.

[Rays Fan]

Craig, just because one doesn't buy season tickets or package deals doesn't mean they don't show up. Most people's schedules are in the air. I prefer the flexibility of buying games when I know I'll be in town, as opposed to season tickets and not going to half of the games due to other committments.

We can't all be retired, go to 12:40 games, and plan our lives around baseball. Doesn't mean we're not supporting the team and going to games frequently.

[Ray F]

I agree.

I go to about 25+ games a year and I don't have season tickets. I go to most weekend series games and 7:10 starts during the week.

I don't think being a season ticket holder makes you more of a fan. That logic would alienate 99% of Red Sux/Stankee fans that have never stepped foot in Boston or New York, let alone own season tickets to their "home" team.

[gene]

Steve Lange's comments are right on target, but he is trying to be logical on a topic that defies all logic. How in the world this lame idea of a major league waterfront ballpark got this far is a poor reflection on our city and its "leaders". Develop the Trop site and send the Rays to Tampa!

[Russ]

Rex, that was on a weekend, with well orchestrated shuttle lots moving people around. The race was also spread out throught downtown instead of one singular destination block. Quit comparing apples to nightmares.

[Answer isn't in Tampa]

Moving the team to Tampa doesn't mean more people will show up. As it stands the Trop is very easy to get to with ample parking. Tampa is a nightmare to get to, especially by Ford Ampitheatre and Hard Rock. You'll alienate fans from Pinellas and further South. St. Pete attracts TRUE FANS from anywhere. Tampa is the pits.

[Ray F]

So... Russ,

Who's to say those same measures wouldn't be implemented for Rays' games?

[Russ]

Ray because they fact doesn't change that the race is a spread out event, and the Rays games are not. Are the Rays going to pay for said elaborate shuttle system? I highly doubt it.

[Not Rick K]

80% think the parking will suck...

2-1 against at the last council meeting.

Best record in baseball, worst in attendence....

7 in 10 voted against the last comparable waterfront land use change.

An unreasonable timetable for construction, and DEP breathing down your necks....

City Council, get the message yet?

[Ray F]

So,

You were all for public money going toward parking concessions for the Grand Prix?

Let's be fair. If I should have to pay for race fans to be shuttled around town, you shouldn't have any problem paying for it for Rays fans.

Goes both ways Russ.

Now you come back with, "that's one weekend compared to 81 games." and I say "but still, the question I posed to you was- Since I pay for the shuttles for your event, you should pay for shuttles for mine." and then you redirect me back to the lopsided event days and then I counter with the idea that if I have to pay for 81 days, you have to pay for 3 than. Then you "say, fine, I would pay for that." and I say, "fine, I would pay for the game day parking too then."

[John]

So, that's 82% +/- 4% that already have a pre-disposed belief that the parking will be a "nightmare".

These are the voters of St. Pete speaking loud and clear.

Please someone tell me how the Rays & their supporters of this sham are going to change enough minds in this city before November to change that percentage to a winning vote "for" a stadium with no parking lots?

Tell the Rays to go pound sand, and bring back Spring Training!!

[Ray F]

John,

If I went to 601 houses with Red signs and 601 houses with Blue signs, I would get completely skewed results. 601 random people do not accurately represent the city.

That's why we have elections that allow all who wish to voice their opinion to do so in a civil manner.

[Lies, damn lies, and statistics]

I love surveys - 82% of .0023% of the city's total population think parking is a problem. Wooooooo . . .

I'd wager that same percentage would describe the distance from their backdoor to the garbage can as "a long walk".

Plenty of parking, you just might have to walk several blocks past restaurants and bars, galleries and stores (which you might want to patronize) along the way.

[John]

Oh Ray, you're making sadder and sadder arguments. The poll was random, that's why there's a margin of error of 4 points. Do you understand how polls work?

You seem like a nice guy, you haven't attacked anyone too harshly on a personal level, and I respect that. I'm going to feel a little sad for you and your fellow supporters when this does eventually get shot down or abandoned, whether it be this Thursday, or at the TDC/BOCC meetings, or Aug 7th. Your side has a mountain to climb with only your bare hands and a prayer, and frankly, that's sad.

But I do hope you get on board with me when the Rays eventually skip town and help us lure a spring training team back to Al Lang.

[gary grooms]

The IRL race is a very valid comparison. The attendance for the IRL race itself has been quoted at between 50,000 to 75,000 people. Just to make the math easy let’s say there were 68,000 people –or double the size of a baseball sellout. When the checkered flag was waved at the race 68,000 essentially left the waterfront and went to their cars. Yes, they were more spread out – but their cars were in the same lots that would be used for baseball. If anything having the people more spread out would negatively impact the egress because people could get to their cars all at about the same time. On the very rare occurrence of a sold-out game that everyone stayed till the last out you would have 34,000 people get up and head to their cars at the same time. The egress for people walking out of the stadium creates a more metered arrival at the various lots.

The race was indeed on a Sunday – but most baseball games are played at night when the business centered lots have few cars in them. Simple economics tells you we have an abundance of parking. If parking was at a premium here it would be expensive to park.

If you haven’t seen the slide show I put together of parking and traffic related photos on the day of the race you can go to this link and take a look. Be aware that it is an 18 meg download. http://blogs.tampabay.com/ballpark/2008/05/fans-for-waterf.html

[John]

Yes but Gary, that flies in the face of your own fellow supporters who claim those 34,000 fans will NOT head to their cars, rather they'll make a bee-line for the bars & restaraunts to enrich all the local businesses. Isn't that why you guys want it even closer than it already is? Make up your mind, dude.

I talked to a friend in Chicago today who is a sports writer for the Chicago Tribune. You know what they're saying about us here in St. Pete? They're saying that St. Pete wants to spend a half billion dollars to move a perfectly good stadium 15 blocks, and they just think that's hilarious! We are the joke of the nation because we're never satisfied with what we ALREADY HAVE.

[Ray F]

John,

The poll is as random as you believe it is.

If I walked in to a mall and asked 601 "random" people their opinion on anything, those people aren't really "random". They are all people who happen to be close enough to me to participate in my survey.

Also,

The wording of the questions influences the answers the "random" people give.

Would you not agree that when someone explains something to you while nodding their head, you find yourself nodding your head as well?

There's no way to get a really accurate poll out of such a small sample.

[John]

Oh and Gary, I don't mean to correct you but most of the proposed Rays games will NOT be at NIGHT. They will be 7pm games, which is the evening, it's still sunny out, and this is the WOST time of day in the summer because of the T-storms. That is the time when people getting off work are still lingering downtown for happy hour or dinner, and when other residents come downtown for the same thing. So those lots are NOT empty. Not by a long shot. I only speak for myself, but you put the stadium on the waterfront and I'm not coming NEAR downtown on game nights to deal with that hassle, and those downtown businesses just lost my disposable income for that night. Instead I'll spend it in my neighborhood sports bar.

[CraigJ]

Guys, my comment to Rays Fan was about him not being able to get good seats on game day, that's bull unless it's the Yankees or Red Sox games, just buy them early, I don't have season tickets and I always get good seats on game day.

And no Rays Fan, I'm not retired, that's why I go to the box office or order tickets ahead of time when I don't have to work.

[John]

Ray, you're starting to sound like Hillary Clinton. To hell with the polls, or delagates, I WON!!!!

[Bill]

Parking is a non-issue. It will work out. Many downtown residents will walk to games. Look at other stadiums such as Fenway Park and Camden Yards - there's no parking there. People are making way too big a deal about this.

What about water taxis from Channelside to the Pier? What about closing 2nd Ave. S. on game nights and only allowing shuttle buses to games? There are solutions.

[Santa Claus]

I'm bringing Portland a present this year...

A slightly used, remodeled, baseball team; all but guaranteed a playoff birth within 3 years.

[Taylor]

Ohhh, so now that the Times has done a poll and it shows some people have issues with parking, clearly there is no need for a vote? Is that what the opponents are saying now? Seriously? Polls also showed Obama as being up 10 points in New Hampshire... oops.

You're freaking out because you know that come November the citizens will speak, and we'll be on our way to baseball played in beautiful downtown St. Pete. You don't want people's voices to be heard... and that's pathetic.

[gary grooms]

Hi John,

Well, if a lot of people leave the game and go to various bars, restaurants and nightclubs the parking egress will be even better.

We are not moving a stadium 15 blocks. We would be building a new one. Moving stadiums is very difficult.

Can you post a link to what is being printed in the Chicago Tribune about St.Pete?

As far as being a laughing stock goes. If you do a Google search for "Best and Worst Stadiums in Baseball" you might find what the rest of the country thinks about Tropicana Field. You could also try to find a single MLB player or sportswriter that thinks the Trop is a good stadium. Not saying there isn't one - just haven't heard anything positive from anyone associated with MLB regarding our stadium - even before this stadium proposal.

As I've said before if every parking place for a few blocks surrounding the restaurant district is full, those restaurants will be very happy with the business they are doing.

Okay - you got me. 7:00 pm is "evening" - when does it become "night?"

I keep looking for someone to answer these two questions – could you do that for me John?

How is it possible that the stadium opposition knows more about everything than the people who actually work in these various fields of expertise? (Parking, economics, stadium design, restaurants, manatee researchers etc.)

For those of you that believe you know better than all these experts – Does the same thing happen to you in your own field of expertise on a regular basis? As an example, if you’re a lawyer do you routinely lose cases in open court to people who choose to represent themselves?

[NO NEW STADIUM]

Hell, let's just put BOTH projects on Ft. Desoto. Since NOBODY cares about our waterfront, why should they care about losing one of the best beaches in the world? Just think of it; we'll leave boat ramp & campground, and follow that by a continuous line of 30 story condos and townhouse developments, leading up to a magnificent beachfront baseball park where the rangers station is. We'll keep the north & east beaches just to silence that tiny "minority" that beleive in preserving our waterfront. Anyone have Stu's phone #?????

[John]

Gary, just a quick question. Do you honestly beleive this plan is going to make it to fruition as the Rays have laid it out? Seriously.

[Ernie]

Will somebody please tell me what's wrong with "The Trop?" As a fan who attends games, I find The Trop very nice to watch a game. I never sweat. I never get wet from rain. The wind never blows. The seats are comfortable. I can see the game good no matter which section I sit. Parking is plentiful and affordable. Who needs a new facility and why? Let's just continue playing at The Trop!

[Answering Gary's Questions]

1. How is it possible that the stadium opposition knows more about everything than the people who actually work in these various fields of expertise? (Parking, economics, stadium design, restaurants, manatee researchers etc.)

...To this I ask Gary, why didn't you pose this question when the Trop was being planned? And if so, how did that work out for you?

2. For those of you that believe you know better than all these experts – Does the same thing happen to you in your own field of expertise on a regular basis? As an example, if you’re a lawyer do you routinely lose cases in open court to people who choose to represent themselves?

...I am an attorney and I have lost cases in open court because the facts outweighed the "argument"....pretty simple.

[Taylor]

Would you like to see the city host an All-Star Game, Ernie?

[Ernie]

The only reason is to host an All Star game. Is that the best you can provide? C'mon. Let's be real. We can't get enough fans to attend the games with a competitive team like the one we have now. No one can fault weather conditions for not attending games. The seat prices are the lowest in all of MLB. It's comfortable inside The Trop. Does any really think a new stadium will increase attendance and be more comfortable to watch a game?

[Chris Jenkins]

An Open Round Table Discussion on the Proposed Waterfront Stadium
Hosted by Chris Jenkins and Gary Grooms

Where: The Globe Coffee Lounge
501 1st Ave N
St. Pete, Fl. 33701

When: Saturday, 05/31/08
7:00PM

What: It's time for the residents of St. Pete to get out from behind their computers and get together in person to talk about the future of our city. We've decided there's too much animosity in the conversations online, and it's time to act like civilized human beings, and have a real conversation about the issue, over snacks and drinks. Munchies will be provided, and there will be no formal structure. This isn't a televised debate; it's a casual evening of conversation and exploration among fellow citizens. The evening will begin at the Globe Coffee Lounge in St. Petersburg, and will include a walking tour similar to what might be expected on actual game days if the proposed stadium is built. This will allow us to meet the people behind the ideas, see the areas we are talking about in person, and get a feel for the businesses and spaces that would be affected by the proposal. Appetizers will be provided at The Globe, and beer, wine, sangria, and various non-alcoholic coffee type drinks will be available at the bar. Please come out and join your fellow city residents in a real conversation about this very important matter.

[Steve Lange]

Thirty three other responses in addition to my response on handicap parking, etc. and not one informative response from the pro stadium bloggers.

Why not?

[get-smart]

Answering Gary's Questions - a response -

You don't even need a GED to know when you are dealing with a bunch of New York crooks, liars and shysters.

[Don Mott]

It's simple Mr. Lange, They don't have one. Of course that "little problem" would be one of those we can work that out later problems that aren't insurmountable according to Mr. Kalt.

[Ray F]

I hope you took that Nitro pill that santa suggested GetSmart. You sound like you need it.

Would your tone be any different if they were from North Dakota?

[jc]

I am a resident of st pete and a rays fan. I am not sure where I come down on this issue , but I beg posters on this board to Google such phrases as "normal distribution" "confidence interval" "sample size" and "margin of error"

[Chris Jenkins]

Valid point, JC. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics. :)

Hope you'll make it out to our round table tomorrow!

[CraigJ]

Chris Jenkins and Gary Grooms, you guys want us to go to discuss this on a game night, it's Saturday, make it early and go to the game after. Game starts at 6:10, not going to be on TV just AM radio, go see it, get tickets soon said on the news it might be sold out.

Now Rays Fan can complain about getting a good seat, I got mine.

[Chris Jenkins]

Scheduling conflicts make that difficult, Craig, but I'll bet we can still get a decent crowd together, and have a good group meet up with us afterwards. What time will the game be letting out? Ray F already said he would join afterwards.

:D Not trying to take away from the game, just trying to deal with many schedules at once.

[CraigJ]

Chris, game will probably be over before 10, If you plan on being there that long I'll come down and show my face, but if you stay that long why not go to the game first?:)

[bill]

This is so Charlie crist can watch all the men ball players from his balcany.

[gary grooms]

Thanks to Chris for putting this round table discussion together. I hope to see some of you there.

An Open Round Table Discussion on the Proposed Waterfront Stadium
Hosted by Chris Jenkins and Gary Grooms

Where: The Globe Coffee Lounge
501 1st Ave N
St. Pete, Fl. 33701

When: Saturday, 05/31/08
7:00PM

[gary grooms]

Hi Answering Gary's Questions,

I wasn't here 20 years ago so I can't answer that question. Obviously you can't answer mine either.

My question using an analogy wasn't if you had ever lost a case in open court. It was do you routinely lose to people that choose to represent themselves. It appears that you answered that question positively. -- I wouldn't use that fact in your marketing materials.

[gary grooms]

Hi John,

I will gladly answer your question - as soon as you clearly answer mine.

[The Big Picture]

Gary,

I realalize that as a long time resident in St. Pete that you have your finger on the pulse of the community(tounge planted firmly in cheek).

Any prediction on whether all of the ill informed, experts who know nothing about either parking, restaurants or our own chosen fields of endeavour will be the ones to prevail when this goes to a vote?

This ain't our first rodeo!

[BOB]

IN ORDER FOR PARKING TO BE A PROBLEM PEOPLE HAVE TO GO TO THE GAMES. THEY WILL PROBABLY HAVE EXCESS PARKING IF THEY BUILD IT BASED ON HISTORIC NUMBERS.

[Will Ferrell]

This thread needs more cowbell.

[Big croc]

Big picture, nice bushism rodeo comment. I guess he's won some votes in his time. Too bad he can't win wars.

Are you going to hold up a Mission accomplished sign when the Rays leave town?

[Chris Jenkins]

Will Ferrell is the most awesome poster ever.

[Big Croc]

Sold out crowd for tomorrows gave to close out the Sox. Too bad some of you will be planning your next conspiracy tale instead of going to the game.

Intellectuals don't need sports anyways There's too much happening on CSPAN to leave the house.

[Steve Lange]

It is now 52 responses in addition to mine and no challenge to my stadium handicap parking figures, etc..

I am not being sarcastic with this comment, but, is there anyone out there that has read the documents, codes, LDR's, the recent city staff report, the Ray's parking report, etc.
that can challenge my position.

Aaron S.? Anyone?

[since62]

investigation of the serious environmental,traffic.financial etc issues surrounding this debacle SHOULD be handled by a competent media. I have heard your pleas to both Troxler and Sharockman go unanswered.

[j]

EDC allows parking agreements between multiple owners and zonings quite often. Zoning can also be changed.
How about allowing for a level of parking underneath the entire stadium a field? Right now they're only parking under a portion.

Handicap parking is a pretty weak reason to say they shouldn't do the project. Even if the Rays paid for everything and gave you your own personal handicap space you wouldn't be for this.

Pointing out issues is fine and responsible but only if you were to re-evaluate the project after changes have been made. Do you have any intention to do this if significant changes were made?

Your an architect and if you've done anything larger than a cvs you know that every significant project has neighbor that don't want to hear the construction or are afraid their property values will go down because you placed a brand new facility near their neighborhood. You compromise and move forward. Everyone will never be pleased even if it is a Ronald McDonald house someone would say the sick kids make too much noise when they cough. Are you now that person?

[jtb]

there are a lot of problems with the waterfront stadium, but parking simply is not one of them.

[Tim]

Maybe the reason all the neysayers are so vocal now is they now if this goes to the polls it will win and they will be proven wrong. The bottom line is the city council should let the all the people speak and not just a few who are opposed.

[JJ Jones]

The Rays and the city need a new stadium. The people who say the Trop is perfectly fine don't go to the games anyway. I hope the voters do that right thing.

[Rick K]

Let's see.

A "Rodney King" summit meeting DURING the Game.

Hmmm.

BRILLIANT!

[Taylor]

Ernie...

No, that's not the only reason we need a new stadium, just the one I decided to highlight at the moment. And people aren't coming to the games? Attendance is UP over last year and tonight will be the THIRD sellout of the season. Please name the last time the Rays had three sellouts in one season.

People ARE coming. And more people will come as they see this isn't a fluke. And even more people will come when the Rays are playing in a beautiful downtown, waterfront stadium.

[Chris Jenkins]

CraigJ,
We planned on starting around 7, to give people interested a chance to meet up at the globe for snacks and such, but the ultimate plan for the evening involves a downtown walk around. Those who are going to the game should have no problem meeting up with us in the downtown area after it gets out.

[Chris Jenkins]

I take it you won't be joining our conversation then, Rick K?

10K in attendance, Rick. I think that means some ball fans won't be at the game. Just a hunch.

[John]

LMAO!! The city, county and Rays are having a circle-jerk blame-game. This charade will be over soon.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/article552708.ece

[Rick K]

Umm. The game tonite is a sellout (or near sellout).

And if the Rays stay near first place, there will be more of those this season...

[Chris Jenkins]

Excellent! So Shelton will have something positive to write about tomorrow. Does that mean that tonight's game will be double, nearly triple the previous games this week that caused him so much distress?

Nonetheless, everything should be wrapped up by 10:30, no? That still leaves time for downtown wandering.

[SUSAN LATVALA FOR PRESIDENT]

An excerpt from the link John posted above:

"But given local government's recent loss of property tax revenue, leaders like Latvala say they've got other priorities. Support for the stadium plan, she said, is politically a "stupid idea."

"We're cutting the parks, we're cutting social services, we're cutting public safety," she said. "But, by golly, we have a new baseball stadium."

[Rick K]

We experienced readers of Shelton's columns expect that he often posts his tales of woe after things have turned around. He is often the last to know.

Memorably, some friends of mine wrote emails to him each week of the Bucs Super Bowl Season, as he wrote columns about one horrible tale of woe after the other (or trivial stuff unrelated to the beautiful thing that was unfolding before our very eyes), telling him, "There is a good chance this is the championship season we have all been waiting for, and you are missing it for all your crying."

A good rule of thumb is that Shelton almost always misses the bigger, more important point.

His article that has everyone buzzing ignores that Rays attendance is significantly up over last season, despite a horrible record in wins and losses. Many of us are writing emails to our friends or having conversations with relatives outside the Bay Area describing how right now as a Rays fan feels just like it felt when the Bucs and Lightning turned the corner.

And just like those other two times, Shelton doesn't see it.

As for your post game idea. I can't make it. But there is a concert at the TROP after the game. So my guess is that many who attend the game will stick around for that.

[Raymond The Rays Mascot]

hey WF, I have MORE COWBELL!!!

Rays & St. Pete together forever.

Go Rays!

[Larghetto Nation]

Nooooo Rick, they're all going to the clubs downtown to enrich local business, right???? Right????? Oh, wait, 15 blocks is WAYYYY too far away for those lazy citizens to walk, isn't it....

How selfish of the Rays to keep people at the Trop longer with a silly concert!!!!

[Chris Jenkins]

There's a concert at Jannus Landing too...but you're probably not a Pit Bull fan... ;)

[NO NEW STADIUM]

http://www.baynews9.com/Chat.cfm?event=evtListThreadsbyContentId&ThreadTypeId=1&ContentId=352730

[j]

Larghetto nation your comments are a bit silly."Rays being selfish with a concert" Giving more reasons to go to the Trop and downtown at no extra fan cost doesn't make them selfish.

Larghetto's comments are political pandering. I guess you dismiss the fact that there will be a overall tax base benefit to the county and especially for
Pinellas county schools which is expected to be 5 mil a year. Your aurgument...Well what if they don't build everything they say they will....
Even if the only built 50% built 2.5 million additional for the schools isn't bad. If your involved at all with the school system you would know that almost all capital improvement projects have been suspended except for maintenance and there has been a hiring freeze.

For every $1 generated in property taxes:

* 52 cents would be diverted to a special taxing fund for downtown St. Petersburg improvements. (The Rays are seeking that money to build a new stadium).
* 37 cents would go to the Pinellas and state school system
* 11 cents would be split among five smaller local taxing agencies

The city and county budgets function based on operating budgets and the last round of tax cuts hit jobs specifically. Capital improvement are available through penny for Pinellas funds. They are separate allocations that are not part of the tax cuts and can't be legally shifted over to save jobs. There is money for new recreation centers and libraries but no new operating budget for staff so instead you see cut back hours on the existing facilities.

You have sticker shock but please take a hard look at the impact on our yearly budget which is a overall plus. Any increase on the county and cities operating budget is worth looking at a bit harder.

[Taylor]

"By golly"... who says that anymore? Yes, by golly, let's improve downtown St. Pete and build the stadium!

But by all means, if the citizens reallllly want the blackeye that is a sports franchise leaving a city (see Hartford, CT, etc), then don't build it. We wouldn't a few hundered feet of waterfront that's already blocked by an existing stadium to be blocked by a new, more impressive stadium.

If the new stadium isn't built... and the Rays leave... I'm right behind them.

[NO NEW STADIUM]

Need any uhaul boxes, Talor??

[gary grooms]

Hi The Big Picture,

I only asked if the people who were claiming to know more than the experts in these various fields routinely had non-experts "show them up" in their own fields. The only answer I got from anyone seemed to be that it did happen to them on a regular basis.

If your question is: Do I have a guess which side would prevail? -- I have no idea.

The airport vote happened before I moved here- but I was amazed to hear that 70% of the population voted to keep it as an airport for a handful of wealthy folks to keep their planes.

Can anyone tell me what the other option was in that vote?

[Chris Jenkins]

Gary, Albert Whitted is used for far more than wealthy people keeping their planes. Among other uses, it is also the staging area for Bayflight, is used for FWRI and the Marine Patrol helicopters, has a learning center for student pilots, and caters to non-wealthy people like my father, who despite not owning a plane, maintains his private pilots license by renting Cessna's there and getting his 100 hours of flight time annually. Several local small businesses use Albert Whitted to launch from, including a friend of mine who offers heli based aerial photography. It's not the rich haven you seem to perceive it as...it's a community asset, and the commmunity voted accordingly.

[Thomas]

Team is doing well.

Sell out crowd.

Walk off win.

If the team manages it's business astutely, they can make a fine living right where they are - without burdening the taxpayers with an absurd plan for a new stadium.

I didn't hear one person leave last night's game saying "Well, that was ok - but if it was at a $450M taxpayer funded new stadium it would have been AWESOME!"

[John]

Gary/Chris

Not to mention it was the birthplace of commercial aviation. You see Gary, we natives value our history just as much as progress. Al Lang has a history and historical value, that goes back almost, if not further than the airport.

As for the alternatives on the ballot, I think you'll find this link very informative and quite shockingly similar to the debate we are currently having!

http://consensus.fsu.edu/academic_directory/2004casestudies/AirportJasonChad.pdf

[Chris Jenkins]

Great link, John, and brings back memories... :D

John, Thomas, I hope to see you both there tonight.

[Kathleen]

Yes, parking is an issue that needs to be resolved. Yes, a waterfront stadium would be wonderful in many ways. Yes, I'm a Rays fan and don't want them to leave. It will be a sad day for St. Pete if we lose the Rays... and many cities are waiting in the wings for them. Let's not lose St. Pete's only major league team. That would be regrettable. Let's do what it takes to resolve the issues at hand and keep the Rays here. I love having a baseball team in our city. And, they're great to see play. If you haven't been to a game this season, at least go to one so you can speak from the experience of it.

Go Rays!!!!

[John]

Chris, I even found an old "Save Albert Whitted" campaign sign in my attic and stuck it back in the yard, next to my red No New Stadium sign, just to add a little flair. LOL

Can not make it tonight Chris although I would love to participate in the next one, just put out a little more advance notice and maybe schedule it on a non-game day.

That is, if our city council doesn't kill this on Thursday!

[Not everyone likes baseball]

As it stands now, the downtown core and the Trop make perfect neighbors.

Because the Trop has ample parking on-site, it does not adversely affect the rest of whatever may be going on a few blocks away. The two entities are close enough so that baseball fans park at the Trop and can walk or take the looper downtown before or after the game, again, without disturbing the action downtown by having 5-10 thousand additional cars circling our downtown streets in search of "the closest parking spot to the ballpark", just like anyone does at a shopping center, they'll spend more time driving in circles, hunting for the closest spot than it would've taken to just park in the perimiter and walk the extra distance. This is human nature. And having this scenario occur 1 in 5 nights will choke the life out of downtown. People will stop coming for other entertainment/dining options because it's just too big a hassle to compete with the baseball fans fighting for "ample parking".

People will be turned off the idea of living downtown for the same reason. Spend 8-10 hours a day at the office and then have to fight a bunch of baseball fans just to get to the Signature (or similar residences in the vicinity), where you recently bought a half-million dollar condo.

And yes, I speak with bias, because I hold a deposit on a Signature condo. ;)

[Not everyone likes baseball]

Two scenarios:

Baseball fan: "Hey, let's pop in Mastry's for a beer, we've got a few minutes before the game. Plus it's about to pour and we've got 3 1/2 blocks to go. We'll get more beer & hot dogs when we get to the ballpark after this T-storm passes."(net benefit-Rays owners).

Non-baseball fans: (Wife) "Hey honey, let's take the kids down to Baywalk for dinner @ Marino's & a movie." (Husband) "Nah, I'm sorry honey I know this is the only night we can get out until the weekend, but there's a Rays game tonight, and I don't want to pay $10 bucks to park IF we can find a spot and deal with that hassle, let's just go to Applebees & then a movie @ Seminole Theatres." (net loss-St. Petersburg's downtown merchants).

Two scenarios which will happen very often. Two Rays fans spending $15 at Mastrys drive away a family of 4 who would've spent $100, minimum. Who benefits?

[BaseBall FAN]

Taylor
I got you on that one. My husband and I are a young couple living in downtown St. Pete because we love it here and I don't care if I have to look for a parking spot a little longer than I already have to and to all of those that are whining b/c of the big condos there and having a parking spot for a 1/2 mil condo it is your dumb.... for paying that much and not getting a parking spot!!!!

[J]

Rays win one more still in first place. Kaz has a record 5 wins in one month. If he keeps it up he'll be headed to the all star game.

Just wanted to update those who have red signs and weren't watching. After the game I went downtown along with many others. Quite a few Rays Jerseys at the independent and cigar bar tonight. Every time I go for dinner before the game or get a drink after the game I see Rays Fans. What's new is that they are actually wearing Rays gear so it's much easier to spot us know. No more purple. (Sorry to knock your favorite color, not everyone is a baseball fan) If you think baseball doesn't help business your just ignorant or your not out in downtown before and after games to actually see for yourself.

[Will Ferrell]

This thread needs more cowbell.

[Will Ferrell]

This thread needs more cowbell.

[Will Ferrell]

This thread needs more cowbell.

[Steve J.]

Forget the issue regarding parking. Who in the heck would give up the nice comfy environment of the Trop to sit outside in the heat and suppressive humidity to watch a ball game? Are you nuts? Give me the Trop anyday. Great stadium, great conditions. I've been to many afternoon games that were rocked by the typical thunderboomers. An old business line...if they win, the seats will fill. Need proof? Check out the Bucs. Outside stadium for baseball around here? Fahget about it!

[JM]

The stadium is a joke.No parking,so that means parking somewhere else and getting bused.This should be great for handicapped people.Maybe the Rays don't want handicapped people.And if you do park away from the stadium will your car be there when you get back and will the wheels and tires be on it.

[I love baseball]

The nay-sayers need to stop whining and making way too much about parking. There are plenty of options so they need to stop being so close-minded. Look at other downtown ballparks - they are successful even with less parking that we have St Pete.

The garages were not full during the weekend of the Honda Grand Prix when there were more than twice the # of people that would be at a sold out Rays game. Plus, the Rays are going to build an additional parking garage.

Baseball brings a tremendous amount of revenue here. Why do you think so many cities want Major League baseball? Plus, having a team here increases property values.

Let's not blow it St Pete. Let's make this a Major League downtown. If this stadium deal does not get done, the other cities watching this closely will build the Rays a new stadium. It the Rays left, St Pete would be the laughing stock of the country and all of the progress for the last 10 years would be blown away.

It's a win-win situation for the city and the Rays. Let's keep the FIRST PLACE Rays in St Pete for many years to come.

Go Rays!

[Steve Lange]

To I love baseball:

As one of the many who has been bringing the facts to the discussion of down town stadium parking I offer the following to you.

I am not a nay-sayer.

I am someone who has read the documents and taken the time to share what I have read with the community which includes you. That makes me, sort of a pro-sayer.

I am not whining.

That is a term used by folks like you to discourage us, intimidate us and flat out try to stop us.

We are not intimiated and we aren't stopping.

I am not close minded.

Hence, why would I read all those dry, fact filled documents that you have apparently closed your mind off to.

Try reading and informing us.

Now THAT might have an affect.

[Steve Lange]

Gary Grooms:

I was part of the core group who fought for and saved Albert Whitted Airport.

The opposition wanted a mix of park land combined with the Mayor's attempt to close one of the runways (6-24) in order to create land for new condos and possibly for USF to expand.

We showed USF that they had tons of land and should quit eyeing our airport.

Embarrassed with our facts USF went away.

The Mayor was a little more determined.

So we sent him a 78% no vote.

The Park people, unfortunately for them, made two mistakes. They teamed up with Mayor Baker and his hidden, sprung at the last minute condo plan and their second mistake was to try to take even one square inch of airport property.

Now I am on the side of protecting Al Lang Field and some other adjoining waterfront parkland and am working with many of the original park people in doing so.

I was one of the ones who sat on the Albert Whitted Airport Task Force and following that sat on the Technical Advisory Committee that came up with the Albert Whitted Park which has now been constructed along the north side of the airport on land which was, up untill recently, a big ugly asphalt parking lot.

Now we have a nice Airport themed park which was designed with the Grand Prix in mind.

The airport serves so many community needs, such as Bayflight, Young Eagles, etc. that it would take much to long to blog all of the community benefits here. Many on the airport are not rich and hang on to stay at this airport inspite of the City's lackluster support for the airport. But that is another story for another day.

I am a LIFE member of AWAPS, the airport preservation group.

If you ever want a tour of the airport, facts on the 2003 referendum vote, just get in touch with me. We could have lunch and I will tell you all that I know and introduce you to folks over there. I think you will see the benefits.

[gary grooms]

Hi John,

Thanks for the article on the airport. You're right about the striking similarities.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the information and the invite. I like the little airport - My condo faces south and I can see the planes and helicopters taking off and landing. Even though I'm 3 blocks from the airport I almost never hear a plane as I watch it land - helicopters I hear - but it's nothing obnoxious. If I had wanted silent world outside my door - I would have bought somewhere other than a downtown.

I'm heading out of town for my 30th wedding anniversary trip - I return on June 20th. Maybe we can do lunch after I get back.

[Steve Lange]

Gary:

It is a deal.

[Rick K]

Steve Lange:

No one thinks you will be stopping.

But most of us find the notion you suggest that the "pro" side wishes to intimidate people in these discussions to be filled with hilarity.

In fact, many of us laugh at your shoe pounding speech to the City Council in which you told them that you know more about the development timeland than do the development professionals who have put together the timetable for these paired redevelopment proposals, even though you have never seen their timeline.

Good stuff for those of us who find humor in real situations.

[Jon McPhee]

For Gary Grooms: Hope you enjoy your trip. Congrats to both of you on 20 years.

You ask:

"How is it possible that the stadium opposition knows more about everything than the people who actually work in these various fields of expertise? (Parking, economics, stadium design, restaurants, manatee researchers etc.)

"For those of you that believe you know better than all these experts – Does the same thing happen to you in your own field of expertise on a regular basis? As an example, if you’re a lawyer do you routinely lose cases in open court to people who choose to represent themselves?"

Mr. Grooms, maybe someone has answered your two intricately linked questions elsewhere, but here's my answer. Lawyers generally don't lose cases to pro se litigants, unless the lawyer lacks skills, and the facts happen to be particularly compelling for the self-representer, and the person has some personal characteristics that let the judge see them sympathetically. The legal system runs on procedures and forms and knowing what to file where and when, and often on the relationships between the players. Look up "Operation Greylord" in Chicago for one example of the latter; there's lots more. Even if you accept the slant the Times is putting on history, the Trop, for example, was jammed past the electorate and done out of the "wisdom" of, I guess, our expert local philosopher kings.

One wonders if back then, with the same dedication of public resources to attract certain kinds of business, there might not be more Jabil Circuit-type entities drawn to this area, especially if the money that has gone to MLB went instead to schools and job training and the like. We'd certainly have a better-informed and more "competitive" populace.

For the same reasons of "how it is," developers usually get their zoning and "comprehensive plan" changes. The forms are observed, the requisite notice is given in the usual opaque blocks of formulaic text in often obscure "newspapers of general circulation," and hearings are held -- along with less formal contacts that occasionally come to the surface via investigative reporting or whistle-blowing.

The issue of expertise has been argued almost to death elsewhere and nobody is going to yield an inch in their opinions of opinions paid for by whomever. "Experts" got that way in part by doing and in part by reading and researching. Maybe some of the subsidy opponents don't have certain degrees and certifications, but you have to know how little those items relate to truthfulness or competence or freedom from bias. And there's nothing, other than having to earn a living in their own area of expertise, to keep an intelligent person from doing the same kind of research and arriving at very different conclusions. As one of the other subsidy supporters keeps saying, "Opinion is not fact. Mine's just as good as yours."

Downtown restaurant owners may be thankful that all the old folks' carcasses have been skimmed off the Green Benches and the benches themselves burned, and "competitive" young folks like the Rays owners, who made their millions via walking timely away from some big scams, have started to fill the tables. Everything's mutable -- I wonder what will supplant the guys in the $600 shoes snifting the 100-year-old brandy? Or are they the end point of evolution?

The wise restaurant owner, knowing that 250,000 other people plus those faceless, fleecable tourists, will be paying the very vast majority of the tab for a possible Big Boom in Pinellas, of course will want the subsidy to be spent. His marginal share is puny and the potential return might possibly someday be great. That's just voting for a freeload freebie, and is no exercise of expertise.

Sometimes people on the street and in the neighborhoods do seem to know more than the masters of the procedural martial arts. Check out what happened in the battle over Albert Whitted. I'm cynical enough to see that people often vote against their interest by being suckered by "flag pins" and "WMD" and Willie Horton, but sometimes they seem to have a pretty clear view of where their interest resides.

[Don B]

The coments about parking and financial impact are all valid and must be considered.
How many people really want to go to an open air stadium during warm summer months.
Several people that I spoke with (6-8 only to this point) have said they enjoy the comfort of the dome environment and would not go to a open air stadium after spending a day of working in the heat.
How will this attitude effect the bottom line of this total financial impact.

[Rick K]

In OTHER words, Gary,

Jon is not answering your question.

The real, honest answer to your question is that it is practically impossible that the ANTI side is right about all (or even most) of their assertions, because that would mean that the professional experts with whom they are disagreeing would be wrong repeatedly.

The odds that laymen with no professinal expertise in these varous specific topics who lack complete information about these various matters would be almost always RIGHT, while the experts who have information not available to the laymen would be almost always WRONG, are very close to zero.

I still struggle to understand why the ANTI's aren't more honest. Some of them are brave enough and honest enough to admit that they don't like these paired redevelopment proposals. This is good.

But to pretend that they have facts about nearly every aspect of these proposals, but the experts lack this information or knowledge, is, simply stated, extremely absurd.

[J]

Steve, since when does Bay flight use Albert Whitted, maybe for maintenance. I think they could of fit a few helicopter pads in the new plan. Young Eagle..such a community need. St. Pete/clearwater has plenty of capacity for Whitted planes but OHHH thats so far away. If you added everyone up that uses that facility except for the small airshow you wouldn't get over a thousand. The development could have been designed to keep the Grand Prix so those numbers don't count either.

You blocked a 50+acre waterfront public park on that land. Of course they would still need to do a massive soil cleanup from years of unregulated dumping, leaking etc through the airport history. Mixed use and a extension of the city grid was planned on the rest. You argue that some condos and mixed use should be on a square foot of 120 acres. That's crazy. I love how you all are anti condo development unless it's the one your living in. The message is it's good for me but I'm special, Everyone else should move to the burbs. You must also support suburban sprawl because you have no idea the type of density required to promote a vibrant walking friendly downtown.
The airport zoning also limits the height of buildings through half of the downtown. 4OO beach Drive had to lower their building a few stories at the last minute to accommodate them and their pretty darn far away. The USF area can hardly go up at all. Now that they are growing and their master plan is scheduled to fill in there remaining green space and close a few of their streets for pedestrian traffic over the next three years. Not to mention the possibilities with the SRI complex. I wonder if your exaggerating a bit with that one. That land could have been put to good public use.

Now you want to block our downtown from taking back 86 acres of parking lot to continue the grid and grow. Did you see the picture in the paper showing how dense that area once was. We need to do what ever it takes to take it back. Our downtown is being held in a strangle hold by interstate 175 and 375 and you have affectively blocked 200 total acres of growth, tax base, and a city were you could maybe walk to a few different hot spots other than central ave. You're a anti development, anti downtown architect without any evaluation of future urban planning. There could have been a compromise on the airport which would have been in the best interest of the cities future and there is one here.

[gary grooms]

During a normal business day you can park on the street for a few cents or pay $5 to park all day in a deck. In cities that have the type of parking shortage that some people contend we have you can’t park in a deck for $5 an hour much less $5 for all day. Don’t you think that the greedy, corporate parking companies would be charging you $50 a day to park if the market demanded it? I realize that the mindset of many people in St. Pete is unless there is a free space exactly in front of where I’m going, so I don’t have to walk more than ½ a block – there is a huge parking problem. It is just an educational process of getting people to use thedecks.

As an example there is a baseball game and the Taste of Pinellas going on right now, but we have such an abundance of parking in this city that there are hundreds of empty street spaces. The City is directing people off of I-175 down to the South Core garage and you can walk or take the Looper over to Vinoy Park. The lot I live on top of is ½ block from the South Core garage and the gate arm is up. You could pull in right now with a couple hundred of your closest friends - park for free and walk less than a block to the shuttle pick up or walk about 7 blocks to Vinoy Park – taking a nice stroll along our waterfront. The Northern Trust deck one block from South Core is also not being operated because there is no demand. The Lanier lot at 1st Ave South and 5th Street is not being operated because there is no demand. I’m guessing that between city street spaces, commercial spaces, USF etc. there are over 5,000 spaces sitting empty right now.

I’m going to do my best here to explain how I would handle parking for new stadium if I was the “Parking Czar.”

1. Get contracts on every available parking space between 2nd Ave. North and 2nd Ave. South all the way up to 16th Street.
2. Change the hours of operation for many of the downtown parking meters to keep people from parking in a street space for a baseball game.
3. Change the parking fine from $17.50 to maybe $35 – at least on game nights.
4. Set up a shuttle route that would run from the stadium up 1st Ave. North to 16th and then over to 1st Ave. South and back down to the stadium. The shuttles would stop at certain intersections. Maybe 1st Ave North and 5th Street and 10th Street. On the top of the loop wherever the 2,000+ spaces that would be at the current Trop site. 1st Ave. South would have stops at something like 11th and 6th Streets. The goal would be that every parking lot within my 80 square block “parking zone” would be no more that 4 or 5 blocks from a shuttle pick up point or the stadium itself. (I’m typing and thinking this thing out so give me break if all my math isn’t perfect- but you get the idea) There would have to be a lot more than just one shuttle bus.
5. Add an option of “Purchase Parking” in advance to the back end of the “Buy Tickets” function on the Rays website. So, after you have selected your tickets the site asks you “Would you like to purchase a parking pass?” When you click “YES” it brings up an interactive map of the “Parking Zone” as you hover your mouse around it highlights the various lots available. The balloon would tell you how much the lot costs and how far it is to the stadium and/or a shuttle stop. When you select your lot it prints out a ticket for admittance to the lot as well as driving and walking directions specific to that lot. Chris Jenkins can explain how this could be done.
6. Some lots would not be on the website. These lots would be used for the people who are showing up without a prepaid ticket. The directional signs we use for our various events would be used to direct people to these lots.
7. For Baywalk it might take some trial and error to come up with the right plan. I might try pretending the Baywalk garage didn’t exist for baseball parking. In other words, it wouldn’t be advertised on the web site and we would never direct people there. Obviously, some baseball fans would still use that lot.

I could go through all the logistics of how to administer and manage this type of operation but it would be long and boring. As fast as I type (which really slow) it would also take me at least an hour. This type of parking methodology is nothing new. (Except for the online parking passes) It has been done successfully all over the world in cities that have much more congestion and less parking per capita than we do. Most every Olympics is set up with a plan like this. I was in the parking business in Atlanta in 1996 during the Olympic Games. We had to deal with many, many more cars as well as multiple sporting venues in a city that has the worst traffic east of the Mississippi. One time events like the Olympics are much more difficult to deal with than routine baseball games. With the Olympics we had thousands of tourists, many who didn’t speak English, trying to get from a hotel they had never seen, down city streets they had never seen, to a parking lot they had never seen, to a venue they had never seen, back in their car to go to a different venue they had never seen.

The first few games at the new stadium could be a little messy but as the fans and the City gets the hang of it everything should smooth out. Is there something I’m missing here? Why do we think we can’t set up and manage this type of parking plan with a superior infrastructure when other cities can?

[gary grooms]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for taking a stab at answering my questions. I don't think you really addressed the statistical likelihood of every expert being wrong.

Let's just take the restaurants. My point is that all those restauranteurs I listed support the stadium because they believe based on their experience in this town when we have big events like the IRL race or MainSail that it helps their business. Those sales gains are absolute hard facts. Yet, people who are not restaurant operators believe that the stadium would hurt the downtown restaurants. My point is, not only does common business sense indicate that bringing more people into the downtown core would help a restaurant's business - but actual experience tells us that. So, why do you believe that you are right and they are wrong?

As to my second question could you give me a straight yes or no and then explain?

In your own field of expertise do people with no training or experience out perform you on a regular basis?

[Let us vote NO!!]

Gary

Our historic (and already famous)waterfront is off limits. (Proven time and time again).

The Trop works just fine (as proven last night), holds even more fans with more funcionality for other types of events. And doesn't disrupt the REST of the projected growth & culture already happening downtown.

It's almost paid off.

Your parking ideas, while intriguing, are only speculation. Just like the rest of the proposal.

Why not a retractable-roof ballpark where the Trop sits? Paid for by the Rays?

I can not understand the mindset that "This HAS to be on our waterfront; otherwise we're all a bunch of losers, trapped in a sleepy retirement town".

[Bill]

To the last reader, please allow me to remind you of one thing.

IT IS NOT YOUR WATERFRONT!

Baseball has been played on the waterfront for a century. There is nothing wrong with continuing that tradition, and doing it in a way where the city benefits.

Again, I'm so tired of people saying "My waterfront". It is such an elitist point of view. 250,000 people live in St. Pete, this would also attract people from all over neighboring counties to watch baseball, and you know what, they would bring their wallets with them.

Gary is absolutely correct here.

[Let us vote NO!]

We'll see how that works out for ya in November, Bill.

[Steve Lange]

Rick K:

I did not know that blogs were designed for personal attacks. As I am new at this I must still have a lot to learn about internet discourse and debate.

As for my shoe pounding presentation on May 22nd it must have made an impresssion.

You listened.

So did the Times, the Tribune and three radio stations who did POWW interviews.

In other words, my deed restriction shoe pounding speech had a far reaching effect and for many days afterward.

The ripple affects of the FDEP letter that others found and I simply reported had its desired affect then and is STILL a hot topic of debate "county wide".

Even today the BOCC is talking about the deed restriction letter I mentioned.

As such, I am not aware of anything you have reported to date that has gone beyond these blogs.

As for the other two parts of my City Council speech, the time line and stadium cost estimate:

Well, I am just cranking those up now.

More to come from me on these soon.

So, in the mean time Rick, please take some pencil and paper out. Write down January 2009. Then list all of the major construction sequenced events and set down lengths of time to each task.

With dredge and fill permitting along with ancillary mitigation to be done, forty or more acres of Trop site contamination cleanup to perform in full, 7,000 car parking relocation, construction of forty acres of new development on the Trop cleaned up site generating TIF tax dollars to pay the City's portion of the stadium costs and you tell me how construction can start in early 2009 for baseball to be played in 2012.

Do the time line yourself. Even if the first three steps each take just one year each to accomplish (parking relocation, site cleanup and forty acres of development) the stadium won't start construction until at least 2012 because the TIF dollars have to be there to pay for the construction loan. No TIF taxes. No construction.

It is just that simple.

That means the stadium, taking three years to build according to the Rays, will not be open for baseball until 2016.

Please, and I am dead serious, prove me wrong.

And Rick, do not talk around this subject.

Lay it out.

List each construction step with a realistic specified length of time attached.

Otherwise, if you don't, you are just blogging to distract and criticize.

[Steve Lange]

J:

I normally do not bring this out, but your blog sort of forces me to. You see you are essentially saying that you know what you are talking about and that I do not.

I beg to differ somewhat.

I have a Master's in architecture with a minor in urban planning, which was based on the City of St. Petersburg when I went to the College of Architecture at the U. of F. back in the seventies.

Yup, for an entire year I studied down town St. Petersburg's waterfront park system along the edge of the CBD 1, 2 and 3 zoning districts along with three other major studies being performed in St. Pete as well. I worked with Mr. Bruce Hahl who was, at that time, the Director of the City Zoning Department.

So, I am afraid you are quite wrong. I do know what I am talking about.

And just so that you are not confused about this. I did not study Chicago, Detroit, or Memphis. I studied St. Petersburg. At the end of our study we made a presentation to the City which included City Council, the entire zoning staff and many folks from other departments.

We delivered a five foot by ten foot base model of the waterfront area from the Vinoy to the airport showing what the waterfront should look like. We submitted detailed drawings of our proposed plans. We submitted a three inch thick document supporting all of our research and findings.

It was quite a day in my life.

Wish you had been there to see it.

And oh by the way.

For the last thirty two years I have been working to make the down town waterfront of this city look just like that model we built back in 1976.

And you know what?

It almost does.

Sort of gives you a small lump in your throat doesn't it.

[Just an outside observer]

Steve and others:

Steve: I do not know you, I'm sure you are a nice guy with good intentions. But you do yourself no favors giving your resume. It makes you look like an ego maniac.

You just may want to stop giving out your personal resume. I'm not sure many people care.

And other people, you should quit personally attacking others and stick with the facts.

Myself, this looks like a promising project when you look at things objectively. Just my thoughts on a Sunday evening.

[Steve Lange]

Just an outside observer:

Until now I have not trotted out part of my resume. J. sort of begged it out of me. We, my POWW friends and I, have been called everything from nay-sayers to anti to down right, well you get the point. We have been accused of not knowing what we are talking about. We have been shown to be less than "the experts". Yet we read the documents, go to the hearings, meet among ourselves, etc. to make sure we get things as right as we can.

We are not dolts.

So, I answered J.

My life's hard work is hard earned and well deserved and sometimes, being falsely attacked is disconserting.

So, I squared the ledger a bit for J.

Sorry if it appeared at I was tooting my own horn, but a tried to qualify my doing so in my first sentence to J.

So, sorry if my saying it offends you.

As for the others I have been working with for the last four and one half months, you should see their credentials.

WOW.

[Don Mott]

Just an outside observer, you are so wrong. If someone comes here and states what they purport to be facts pro or con they should be able to back those statements up and that is what Mr Lange has done. If you don't back up your talk with facts then your talk is useless.

[J]

Sorry Steve depending on the post you read before hand in part determines the tone of my post,

As for credentials I also happen to have a Masters degree in Architecture from the same school and have taught as well so no foul. Could you fight for a Architecture building up there, I can't believe the building they gave Building Construction. Of course they combined the colleges now.

I never said you don't have credentials but credential can be on two sides of an issue. I personally don't think a thesis done in school 30 years ago doesn't make you an expert for St. Petersburg's future urban planning. Bob Jeffery basically wrote the current zoning regs after Bruces time so I don't know how much that reference means either. Many architects worked towards a viable proposal for Albert Whitted including Tim Clemmons. He's not too shabby of an architect or planner either.(I'm not Tim he's from San Fran so Bloggers please don't protest him )

You have to reverse the Albert Whitted issue and take nostalgia out of the equation to evaluate it without bias.
If the site had existed with a 50 acre park and 60 acres of mix use what would the ramifications be of leveling those programs and placing a small non commercial airport in it's place? What would be the lost revenue, the cities liability for the airport, the air rights ramifications, and the quality of living cost of losing the waterfront parkland. Such a proposal would never pan out. That discussion was not made clear and nostalgia took over, fine. The people voted and it's now in the past.

Next we come to the Trop. I don't believe the initial intention was to place it in a way to promote economic growth around the dome. You would not place the site with a interstate holding the north and south sides of the site. On the west there are only two blocks of grid to develop and then you have industial/low income housing. With your urban planing background you know that two blocks is not enough to promote a neighborhood. The trop was placed because it was on the cheapest land with the highest crime rate. It effectively displaced the neighborhood and gave new housing promises in Jordan Park which weren't completed until the last few years. This was a site plan mistake and a setback for density in St. Petersburg. The parking is too spread out and no perimeter edge building were provided to atleast continue a streetscape on first avenue south. It was a site plan of politics/economics not urban planning. Before the Dome the interstate destroyed the grid on three sides of the downtown and effectively redefined downtown boundaries. If 175 and 375 were shorted the whole Bayfront hospital area would seamlessly connect to downtown, same with St. Anthony, 9th and 16th streets. You wouldn't mind walking to your doctor if they weren't creating a no mans land. The interstate also killed the 22 street neighborhood cutting through the job corp site and by the Manhattan Casino. Methodist town, The gas plant neighborhood, Mercy hospital neighborhood all are really a thing of the past although I respect those like Go Davis who still represent them. The point is the city lost entire areas that created a much denser and extensize downtown than it is today. Now we have an opportunity to take back 86 acres of downtown or 1/4 the size of CBD districts and extend a walking friendly grid of 6-8 blocks through the trop site. Why not push for a large work force housing component on the new site. The area between what residents know as the heart of downtown and the trop has started to fill in over the last few years but would absolutely fill in if there were development on the trop site. Right now developers evaluate downtown properties by there proximity to the "heart" of downtown. If they could also point to the trop site they will be able to fill in between the east and west book ends. The looper would not stop at the Arts center in would go all the way to the current trop site. I see this project as one to help reconstitute the entire fabric of downtown. I actually care very little about enhancing the area around the waterfront stadium as it is already headed in the right direction although I think the stadium could help do that as well. The more important urban planning issue for me is the reintroduction of 86 acres of hopefully well designed downtown and green space proposed.

The extent of the 175 and 375 interstate connections were a urban planning mistake and the original trop site plan was a plunder from a urban development standpoint other than the interstate almost dumping right into the parking lot. If you could show me a plan that would give back the trop site and keep the Rays here I might be open. The worst case scenario is that we are left with a empty Al Lang and empty trop field for a decade or so setting back development of a more unified walking friendly downtown for who know how long. I've worked in such a walkable downtown and now in this one. I just don't want to accept that we are utilizing effectively only half of the downtown footprint in part because of the trop and it's parking lots standing in the way of what St. Pete could be.

[get-smart]

J-

My credentials are in common sense.

Albert Whitted is an exciting part of St Pete. So is the Pier, Jannus Landing and the Dali Museum.

Your theory is, if they never existed in the first place, we would not build them now ... and you're an architect? If Albert Whitted never existed, I would bet there would be a ground based helicopter repair center some where in the city. Aviation goes as far back as spring training baseball. So you would get rid of the airport but build an out-of-place behemoth stadium. If you are such a hotshot know it all architect/city planner, why can't you see the destruction of the downtown with this proposal.

We had spring training baseball downtown for ninety years until those greedy New York Goldman Sachs criminals destroyed it for us. So where is your loyalty?

If you're so smart and care about the Rays, why don't you find a place on Gandy to put the stadium. The attendance would be much better with Tampa just a hop away. .

Just a few casual thoughts. Cheers

[J]

Get, Smart
My theory is to to evaluate what's proposed on a parcel of land for it's overall benefit to the community independent of nostalgia. I think it's applicable to point out if the land was vacant and you were deciding what to put on the land. A waterfront park and mixed use would outweigh a private airport in that scenario. It may be exiting for you but it serves a small percentage and has little effect on the economic development or quality of life throughout the city.(small footprint on the helicopter repair, I'm not sure what your saying with that one)

Still my main discussion was about the development of the trop site. Do you not see any relevance on my comments putting the new stadium site aside for a moment? Your response sounds like you might have just skimmed over the post.

On the Gandy it would act like the carillon center by pulling more activity and business out of downtown. Future cafes etc will choose between being adjacent to the stadium or being downtown. There's a trade off with anything. No matter how much you hate the plan even the current trop has a impact on downtown business.

Traffic is ten times worse in Tampa. Due to St. Pete's grid and multiple options for egress it filters out amazingly well even when you have over a hundred thousand on the 4th of July so I think the Idea that the stadium will destroy downtown is a bit far. Traffic is annoying but we're not talking about everyday and usually after work. If games occurred at the same time as rush hour I would hold up the red sign myself.

On Spring training I would like to see them come back and play on the same site. Why not use the same stadium for both instead of 100 acres for two stadiums.

You referenced the pier as another element of the waterfront. We'll have to decide it's faint within five years. It's also a public building run by a private entity Urban Retail.

I don't think extreme Terms like Destroy our downtown and Criminals help the discussion. I'll be happy to stick with the subject matter.

[get-smart]

J -

Ok Let me understand your solution.

You are saying build a new stadium and free up 86 acres. You don't care where the stadium goes. Your worst case scenario is Al Lang is a park and the Trop is idle.

What you call the cheapest land, turns out not to be. Your spiel doesn't address the clean-up needed.

I don't know what you mean by " You would not place the site with a interstate holding the north and south sides of the site." The Trop is not bound by interstate. Only the south side has interstate access.

I say -

The worst case scenario is as a new stadium is being built, the present ownership sells off the team and contracts. The new owners say "Well this is not our deal, we wouldn't have signed this agreement." The city goes bankrupt. The stadium sucks the life out of the downtown. The Trop sits idle. The downtown de-populates.

You must be an optimist. I don't trust these people from New York.

Evaluate this; Build the stadium on 22 Ave S. Next to the Interstate. There would be plenty in ingress and egress. There is the Interstate for Tampa and Bradenton fans. There is 34th St. and 22 Ave. S. for us locals. The fans can park their cars on the neighborhood streets just like downtown. In addition, the game times should work out perfectly with the lull in traffic.

The parking will never conflict with downtown events. It's an area that needs the development. Just ask the mayor. This is a Win-Win. The few people that get displaces will be the first to move into the redeveloped Trop site. They can buy the condos.

You are right. We can work together and solve the problem.

[J]

Get Smart,
I agree there should be a known allowance for removal of unsuitable soils. I think you will see this happen before they move forward. The developers threw that into their proposal but that is truly a negotiable item.

Let me correct my prior statement there is interstate on the south and west sides of the current site blocking adjacent development.

If you put the stadium farther south at 22nd ave S your placing it in heart of the current black residential community and right next to the new UHURU office. I would follow that decision closely to make sure I was out of town if it were approved to displace more of the black community. It would be perceived as systematic race displacement by way of Stadium. If your into riots for national exposure than it's a good plan. I'm sure there's a level of sarcasm in your post there as well.

If you would approve the new stadium on the Gandy or anywhere else does that mean your main objection is the downtown Al lang site?

On your worst case we already had depopulation in the 60's and 70's white flight. Many of the empty lot's you see once held multistory buildings, department stores etc. We are slowly climbing back to where we were. Property values are too high for this to occur again. I understand your concern especially when many residents haven't experienced a denser downtown environment. Florida in general is a drive to your front door urban design. Walk to your front door is a strange concept but has advantages.

Can I at least get agreement that the redevelopment of the Trop site is in the best interest of our future downtown. Water front Stadium aside.

Keep up the discussion hopefully some good can come of this and the city will be better off than it was before the proposal. (not worse off isn't acceptable if we are interested in the best for the community's future)

[get-smart]

J-

There is no advantage in building a new stadium. You say you are exchanging 86 acres for 15. That is because you discount the car parking. If 8000 cars show up; they will have to be parked. It will be either organized like it is now, or total chaos. The chaos will discourage downtown goers. I have looked at other baseball stadiums in different medium size cities and they all have parking around the stadium. They all have direct interstate access.

The bottom line is people will be parking at the Trop and then bussed downtown. That defeats everything.

Some blogger was bragging about PNC Park. It is on the river in a port setting. It is bound by interstate, RR and a football stadium. It is surrounded by a parking lot and the river probable stinks at times. It is isolated.

The Trop is contaminated. If one underground oil tank is found, it would cost millions just on that one item (NYC replacement park - $60M). Develop Central Ave and areas around the Trop.

My 22nd St S remarks were to see how much of a realist you are.

Cheers

[Steve Lange]

J.:

Of the 86 Trop acres, after restoring the street grid system which the city will probably pay for and maintain, there are only about 56 acres to develop. Not as large as everyone is reporting.

Next, my firm, hired by the City, wrote the CBD-4 Zoning District in conjunction with city zoning staff and all of the surrounding zoning and or redevelopment plans for the Dome District area.

The idea was to convert the Dome District into an entertainment district which would work in concert with the Dome.

Parking structures were planned in the CBD-4 district to be placed along the northern edge of the Dome District thus allowing people to come from the north without getting mixed up with the parking kaos on the Trop site. People would park then walk towards the Dome pasing through Dome District with it restaurants, bars, clubs, etc. prior to game time, then go see the game and then return doing much of the same thing after the game. This passing of large numbers of people through Dome District to and fro was going to be in part its life blood.

Namoli crushed that plan when he added $85,000,000 in improvements to and inside the Trop. So much for planning. Namoli killed it in one fast swoop.