Archstone's plans for Trop site

Since it seems like we'll be turning our attention solely to the Archstone-Madison proposal for Tropicana Field, I wanted to share a couple of the images from the proposal. Above is the masterplan for the Trop site.

To help get you oriented, the site of the dome right now is in the lefthand corner between 16th Street and I-175.

Some of the text may be hard to read, but the tallest building Archstone proposes is 20 stories just west of 16th street. The focal point of the development however, is on the eastern edge of the site (east of Booker Creek), where developers proposed nearly 800,000 square feet of retail space.

The intersection marked "Galleria Plaza" would be the hub of the area. (That's what the smaller image is depicting).

The area east of Booker Creek is what Archstone is calling phase 1. Plans call for that area being completed first, by 2013. It would include a movie theater/entertainment complex, outdoors store, grocery chain, and other retailers.

Comments

[Will Ferrell]

Will and the Cowbell approve. Looks nice.

[since1962]

Lets ignore cannibalizing aspect of two multiplex movie theatres so close(Baywalk) which was specifically cautioned by council. Lets ignore Toytown redevelopment which will have superior? duplicative?amenities. Lets ignore the need for workforce housing. It sure looks purty.
ADVERTISING! TAXES! RAYS!

[Rick K]

Let's ignore that "since 1962" earlier told us that the developer withdrew the movie theater...

Let's ignore that Toytown is neither downtown nor on the waterfront....

Let's ignore everything irrelevant except this proposal....

From my view, it looks great! St. Pete will be much better off with these paired redevelopment proposals than without them.

[Don in St. Pete]

Sure looks nice if you've been applauding development for 2 or 3 decades like Rick K. Looks like a joke to me. Where are all these retail store workers going to live, under the interstate? Since it won't happen, I won't waste anymore keystrokes.

[Thomas]

St. Pete is not going to pay $300M in public money for the Rays to get a new stadium.

No way. No day.

[Rick K]

The workers will live the same place ALL workers live....

Some will live out in Northwest St Pete... Some will live downtown.... some will live in Northeast St Pete.... some will live on the South Side.... Some will live outside the city....

And so on....

The voo doo prognostications of the ANTI's are at their funniest when the ANTI's are pretending that this redevelopment of the Trop site will not be a positive for the neighborhood and the City.

[since1962 re R]

Rick
Aaron wrote just above "It would include a movie theatre...
Trust the Times?
Trust the Rays?
Trust Rick?
READ FIRST

[Demetrios]

What happened to Westshore Mall after International Mall was going to put it out of business? Seems to be doing well as far as I can tell.

Bay Walk will benefit significantly due its proximity to the stadium. Been to Channelside lately?

[Rick K]

Since1962, I have never disupted that the new development would have a movie theater. You did, silly.

And you were wrong. (again!)

What are you smoking?

[get-smart]

This is a gated gentrified area .. right?

[Paul]

Not gated... but gentrified wouldn't even come close to describing the area from 1988 to what the future would hold. I think the Uhuru's may have a point on this one... and I never agree with them. The people that lived at Gas Plant have received the biggest unlubed, bend over and take it, job to date.

Look back 20 years ago, and compare that with what 'could' be coming on the Gas Plant area. That solidifies the wall between 'us' and 'them' pretty significantly. And I'm not saying that to be mean, its what I see.

I don't know what a solution is, but I don't think knocking down the Trop is the answer. Nor is completely messing up our waterfront with the most out of scale, unwanted, bloated, egomaniac, self serving, bloated, pretentiuos, single use baseball field ever created. ( did i forget anything? )

Just great, a planned, cookie cutter community right in the heart of our City. Lets just require everyone to drive the same car and buy 5 buck coffees at the local corporate java shack. Pathetic.

Yo Ricky boy, run that through your salad spinner, insult generator and plop out some 'silly', 'baseless', 'patently false', 'anti' rhetorical propaganda. Come on, you're slow today, boy. You ain't taking any of my bait :)

[Ray F]

Wow,

I hope none of the anti's try to hire a professional landscaper to remodel their yards.

This is a rendering. You have to imagine that every large development has a rendering.

If you remember, Baywalk was a vacant parking lot a few years ago. Now it's the center of our downtown renaissance. Because of Baywalk and concepts like it, our downtown has gained more visitors.

People that go there to see a movie might hear music coming from a couple blocks over from Jannus landing and want to go investigate. On their way, they will see herds of people walking down to other bars and restaurants.

They may plan their next visit downtown around exploring the restaurants or bars or hit Jannus for a concert.

This complex should do the same for the Trop area. I can't forget the term renaissance being used to describe St Pete in the past 10 years. It was slammed into my brain over and over again.

Why can't this project add to that renaissance????

[Earl]

This looks beautiful. It will bring a much needed shopping district into St Pete. Pinellas County seriously lacks quality shopping.

This will be a tremendous boon for our city! I am highly in favor of it.

[Paul]

Earl, what are you looking to buy? Seems there are lots and lots of stores in St Pete including a nifty mall. We have Wal Marts, Targets, Bealls, all kinds of sporting and boating and outdoor shops... what is it that we are so missing out on in our little City of 250,000?

Seems what we could use is more high quality high paying jobs! More fancy stores and overprices 'affordable living' units is a joke. And for the record, what price tag makes a place 'affordable living'? My version of affordable may be quite different than yours. But hey, you're the one who wants to shop... wow, what a great thing for a City... shopping. Materialism is over rated as are the low paying wages their stores offer.

[J]

Downtown once held multiple theaters, 3 major department stores, and countless more retail options. If the downtown once supported so much density with less population why do you proclaim this to be a failure before it breaks ground.

I doubt there would be any complaints if this development wasn't attached to the waterfront stadium site.

The mixed use alone should create a mix of architectural forms. The plan shows the streets extended through the site allowing it to connect in with the rest of the city and reduce the superblock perception that the site has now. As an architect I would like to see the city require different building typologies throughout the site. I agree that the building should appear different to reflect their use and orientation.

Would you rather have a 86 acre parking lot or this development,the 5000 jobs, construction and tax revenue streams.

The loss of the gas plant neighborhood was deliberate but we can't take it back and no one is going to build 10,000 low income units there. Atleast the 1 mil sq ft of retail means permanent blue collar jobs and the .5 mil sq ft of office will help attract higher paying jobs/companies to the area. I'm tired of companies leaving downtown to move to carillon just because they can't find large office spaces.

If the stadium is voted down and the Rays leave will you still try to block this development? I pray that you don't. There aren't enough boat and home shows in the world to convince me that this site is a better parking lot than part of our downtown's urban fabric of mix use development.

It was once densely built and should be again. Yes it's going to be new construction which means gentrification for some but what else do you suggest moving part of midtown back on the site. Central Park was once a shanty town. What is best for the future St. Pete?

[Poor, poor J]

J forgets one teeeeny tiny detail.

Downtown supported all that density, when??? OH YEAH, BEFORE URBAN SPRAWL!!! BEFORE TYRONE, GATEWAY, SEMINOLE, SUNSHINE, AND CLEARWATER MALLS....

And the spin keeps-A-comin'

[Ray F]

Hey Paul,

Have you been to the International Plaza?

How about to the Outlet Mall in Ellenton?

How about the Outlet mall just as you get to Kissimmee???

These are destination shopping plazas. It's not where you shoot real quick when you need baby formula at 3am.

These are places that on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, soccer moms plan for days in advance to go. These are the types of places that are packed on the Friday after Thanksgiving.

You can keep WalMart and Target.

When you tell your wife you shelled out $10 on a purse for your anniversary, gimme a call. I have a futon in my back room you can crash on.

[Interesting]

Earl, good comment. Don't let the rabid "anti rebellion" attempts at invalidating your opinion dissuade you in any manner. They are sad and pathetic.

Notice how NONE of their theories bear any connections to reality?

Where are thousands of high paying jobs going to come from? And what will entice firms with those jobs to locate those jobs Downtown, when most workers who earn that sort of money would prefer to live in the suburbs, if current residential population patterns indicate.

Archstone projects the average salary will be $45,000. If we assume that the lower paid retail clerks, cashiers, and restuarant servers will not earn that much (even though they will provide valuable good PART TIME jobs downtown), then that means there will be a reasonable number of higher paying jobs downtown. In fact, $45 K is probably higher than the current average salary of a downtown worker. If we remove the Rays from this calculation, the average salary of a downtown worker NOT working for the Rays is probably even that much more less than $45 K.

[Are you serious?]

People around here are buying Louis Vitton bags and Bose Lifesyle steroes left and right Ray F....along with their $80 tank of $4.00/gallon gas to get to work.

We need a "destination shopping center" like we need a new stadium, when the one we have is perfectly functional and not even paid off yet.

I'd sure like that new hybrid Lexus LS450, but I still owe a lot for my Mustang....screw it, you only live once. Maybe once I buy myself into bankruptcy, the city can put me up in one of them there nifty Gas Plant apartments, section 8, of course.

[Thomas]

Interesting is right:

"Notice how NONE of their theories bear any connections to reality?"

"In fact, $45 K is probably higher than the current average salary of a downtown worker"
"a downtown worker NOT working for the Rays is probably even that much more less than $45 K"

Wow.

[Paul]

Ray F. - actually, no, I don't go to the International Plaza (it gives me the creeps to see all the overpriced garbage) and I have been to Ellenton 3 times, again because its a materialistic mecca, I avoid the place. Kissimee to shop? We run in different circles. I realize I am not the norm and actually the girlfriend liked the trip I took her on... and she does not have a purse that equals a mortgage payment. Different strokes for different folks. Shopping is not what makes a City. I could care less how much my neighbor spends on his 'stuff'.

I agree that 'if' there is a buildout on the Trop site it should be diverse, varied architecture, a 'non planned' community... and be fueled by a creative and high tech focus. Not sure how that gets done... as I'm not trained in that area. But I don't live in New Tampa for a reason. Strip malls and planned, vanilla living are void of character and do not match the vibe of St Pete today. Just my opinion, but yes, I realize at some point, something will get build on every piece of land. This just seems out of character with our City and a complete overkill that will 'Wal Mart' the life out of what we have going on. Its too big. However, we don't really get to vote on any of this, so I guess my opinion is really just that.

[Thomas]

Check out this specimen:

"the average salary of a downtown worker NOT working for the Rays is probably even that much more less than $45 K."

Krackie! Does this mean that the average salary of a downtown working is much more less than $45K?

If something is "that much more less" is it mega-less?

Is a downtown worker much more less than probably even than the Rays -or- are the Rays probably even that much more less than $45K?

Have a have go at this!

[Rick K]

We will get to vote.

I know many of the ANTI's HATE that idea.

But we will.

[Thomas]

If it makes it to the ballot (which is really a long shot based on the Rays ability to publish information to this point) - anyway, if this specific proposal gets to the ballot, it's gonna get soundly defeated. I mean like thrashed.

Anyone who doesnt see that is not tuned in to the public's opinion of this whole thing.

[Paul]

My comment about not being able to vote was about how the Trop site would be redeveloped... if it came to that. Bring on the vote. We all want to tell the Mayor and the Rays to go take a long walk off a short pier. I'm guessing 70% no votes. Guess Rick K's vote won't count though... ouch!

[Rick K]

Thomas' prediction might turn out to be right.

I am reminded of a woman we met over the Memorial Day weekend, at a ceremony to honor veterans of the ongoing military confilicts in the Middle East. The woman was an Iraqi citizen, who traveled to this country solely, she said, for the purpose of meeting American GI's and thanking them for giving her freedom.

It was a poignant interaction.

One that cannot be undone by any spin or attempts to attack the US presence in Iraq or elsewhere. It was just a woman, one person, acting upon her heartfelt belief. Her opinion. Her personal assessment of the impact of events.

What was amazing was that some "ANTI-war" protestors tried to invalidate this woman's heartfelt gratitude.

They completely missed that their opinion is of absolutely no worth to this woman. The woman spoke of the fear she and everyone she knew lived in when Saddam's thugs ruled the country. She spoke of personal experiences with rapes, kidnappings, torture, murders, thefts, and other horrors.

In her mind, it was VERY clear who was the threat during the first 28 years of her life, and who is the threat now.

One of the more interesting things she said was the way the predictions about voter turnout and election outcomes are so frequently off the mark.

I couldn't help, as I listened to her, think of how that is true everywhere, really.

[Rick K to Paul]

Paul.

Keep guessing.

Like a broken clock, you are blind to be right, eventually.

[Rick K adding clarifcation]

My 5:35 pm post, above, gives the impression that the exchange I describe took place in 2008.

It did not.

I apologize if my lack of clarity confused or led anyone astray.

[Another story, another 100 percent say NO NO NO]

Comments on this article by

ben Jun 16, 2008 11:13 AM
Why don't they just move to Las Vegas or Charlotte. WE IN ST PETE WILL VOTE NO!!!!!!

by Tom Jun 16, 2008 11:13 AM
I agree with Mark. Why move? 72 degrees, good parking. Do we think attendance will go up with a new stadium no matter where it's at? Lets face it Florida is a transiet state, there aren't enough fans, great season, are they packing the Trop now??

by Chuck Jun 16, 2008 11:12 AM
I`ve been a Rays fan since `98. I`ve been to many games at the Trop, and enjoy the atmosphere. But I would love a new stadium, and I dont care where its at. If putting it in Tampa will help attendance, Im all for it. I`ll make the trip for my team..

by Thomas Jun 16, 2008 11:03 AM
Move far away from here.

by bob Jun 16, 2008 11:03 AM
move them to tampa please!

by Alice Jun 16, 2008 11:03 AM
How bout gone. Team and game have zero interest, or value to me. Waste of 3 hours of time. Vote NO.

by Neil Jun 16, 2008 11:03 AM
I don't care what they do as long as it does not include taxpayer money.

by Bill Jun 16, 2008 10:33 AM
Albert Whitted Airport property would have been perfect till we get a hurricane. next big one will rip the roof off the trop and then just replace it! Toy town would be the best place, but then who will come to down town

by Robert Jun 16, 2008 10:05 AM
Okay, I'm confused. The question should not be WHERE to build a new stadium, but WHY to build one in the first place. Why not just renew the lease on the current building and leave it as it is? A new building is not going to attract business.

by Ryan Jun 16, 2008 10:05 AM
Wait until they win a world series and then talk about it? Wait 15 years and then talk about it? You people will find any excuse. "Rays champions in 2008!" People will say...wait until they win two championships...then four. Just vote and be done

by Dorine Jun 16, 2008 10:05 AM
I can't see spending the money if we can't even give city employees a decent raise this year. The mayor and council all get double digit raises and the rank & file get nada? Until this inequity is fixed I won't be voting for a stadium...

by Ryan Jun 16, 2008 10:04 AM
I wouldn't mind a new stadium, but wherever you put it, there will be crybabies whining about it. We all pay taxes for tons of government waste, -- why not a stadium? but it won't happen because of whiners. Just leave the Rays where they are

by Ned Jun 16, 2008 10:04 AM
Tune in Times. We don't want to pay for a stadium anywhere! Listen to the readers. Lately, this paper looks like a sellout to the Rays stadium scheme; I don't think I can trust you for objective reporting. Time to try the Tribune.

by jeff Jun 16, 2008 10:04 AM
I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!!!! Tell the Devil Rays to pack up the team and GET OUT OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA!!!!!!!!!!!

by Homeboy Jun 16, 2008 10:04 AM
5 letters. T-A-M-P-A. 5 letters. M-O-N-E-Y. Everything Else: 5 letters. N-O-I-S-E.

by Dave Jun 16, 2008 10:04 AM
Build it in St.Pete. Natural grass open air - move most of the games to 07:00 - it will work. I would also have the St.Pete police hanging out with breath analyzers -if you fail the test they will offer you a coupon for 50% off a room at the Vinoy.

by nzjunky Jun 15, 2008 8:40 AM
I'm a Hillsborough resident who would be happy to see my team move to my county. Why don't we discuss it instead of just hearing "plugged-in" Manteiga's view?

by Carol Jun 15, 2008 8:40 AM
Get Smart ... AMEN!! Talking about building something that they will use for a few years and then claim the saltwater hurts their bats and want to move yet again - AT OUR EXPENSE?? Let them pay ALL of our mortgages off, then we'll think about it.

by Keith Jun 15, 2008 8:39 AM
The argument for alternative sites is plausible. However, the net result would then be a brownfield site (the Trop)and a baseball stadium on the waterfront that will be nothing more than a great venue for baseball that is unused. What a loss!

by gene Jun 15, 2008 8:38 AM
Breaking news...Rays (31,000) out drew Bucs (30,000) yesterday. Of course, the Rays had a concert to fill the seats and the Bucs had a pre-season practice session. Who really cares what the Rays do and where they play their poorly attended games?

by Mark Jun 15, 2008 8:37 AM
How about another state?

by tom Jun 15, 2008 8:37 AM
why are we even letting the rays talk new stadium. first they have a stadium thats good for atleast 20 more years. second shouldnt the prove themselves with a few winning seasons and bring a few world series championships to the area first.

by KG Jun 15, 2008 8:37 AM
location is only half the issue. it's also no more public money for private profiteering. it's just that simple.

by Herman Jun 15, 2008 8:37 AM
The proposed site is downright stupid. What about St. Pete airport site. Only one airline servicing site now. Plenty of road access, potential parking, etc. City officials need to stop caving in to threats of team owners.

by joe Jun 15, 2008 8:37 AM
You people keep thinking they are moving to Hillsborough, get over it they will not fork over the money for them. They would rather have the Yankee's for 2 months...Idiots!!

by Eric Jun 15, 2008 8:37 AM
Albert Whitted Airport and the Port of St. Pete are the biggest shams in this community. Level both and put the new stadium on Bayboro Harbor. 93,000 takeoffs and landings a year, my a--!

by Steve Jun 15, 2008 8:36 AM
May I suggest they consider Orlando or Jacksonville.

by Herman Jun 15, 2008 8:36 AM
Why don't YOU move Butch! We can easily do with people like you living here.

by darryl Jun 15, 2008 8:35 AM
I could understand if there was nothing built at the water front site,but there already is a baseball feild there.so building on it wouldnt hurt.and an ex amount of feet of water veiw dosent hurt.we could vote to have it where northshore pool is.

by gwo Jun 15, 2008 8:34 AM
This has been a 'back-room' deal from the start. The mayor and the Rays have been working on this for years. Why not look into that relationship? The Freedom of Information Act should open all sorts of the mayor's records, meeting dates and the like

by Jim Jun 15, 2008 8:34 AM
If not here, where? Try no place.

by Lindsay Jun 15, 2008 8:34 AM
I think it's ridiculous to put Albert Whitted on the list of choices for land, considering they just did construction to the airport to bring it back, and the public voted to keep the airport alive.

by Juan Jun 15, 2008 8:32 AM
Wait...this is the first time we even been #1 in the Division and they want a new staduim. About 10 years of losing and they want us to build them a new ballpark. Win me the world series and then we'll talk.

by RE Jun 15, 2008 8:32 AM
If they think I will park at some other location and walk that distance to a non a/c facility they are crazier than I thought. Nothing wrong with the Trop. As for alternate location? Some wide open field in Alaska would be nice! FOOLS!!!!

[Paul]

How's Seminole Rick?

Get your voting card renewed for any upcoming elections?

I have mine. And guess what, the address says 'Saint Petersburg, Florida'.

ahhh, the beauty of the vote that really counts.

[get-smart]

Very Interesting - (RRRick K., et al)

Status Quo = Status Quo
Rebellion = Anti Status Quo
:. Anti Rebellion = Status Quo

Archstone is owned by Lehman Brothers. Lehman is tanking right now as an investment bank. Archstone is loaded in debt and will go down with Lehman. Can you say, "Tele-Tubby Bye Bye."

I make a motion to cease and desist all activities that have been put forth by the Rays Proposal. We need to wait out the mortgage meltdown crisis. We need to decide how to fix-up and revamp our existing Trop site. We need to honor the promises that we made in the past! ... Can I get a second!

Do the Math!

250 local p/t employees at $10,000/yr = $2,500,000
50 Corp Exec.living in other states at $220,000/yr = $11,000,000
$13,500,000 / 300 employees = $45,000/yr

OK you're right, the numbers work.

-

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Rick K,

You have really lost it this time. Try 68-13 dude...we are ABSOLUTELY READY TO VOTE!!! The only thing that has us peoed is that even though we have spoken on three separate occasions about our VISION for the waterfront and Al Lang we have been ignored. Ohhh but I know you think citizens who actually care enough about their beloved town shouldn't be heard...let's make sure they HAVE to vote. Fine..but why was everybody so afraid to have a VOTE on whether the citizens wished to confirm what they've already expressed. No...we can have a vote instigated by a quarter of a billion New York corporation but screw the citizens. Some democracy at work here.

[Rick K]

No one on the pro side is afraid of a vote.

[Rick K]

I am done for today. I am headed to Seminole to pick up my kids to take them to a ball game.

Go figure.

[J]

If development is not right for the Trop Site even though it was once densely populated then what is your alternative.

If you vote no the Rays are going to leave and we're going to have to deal with this site. If you vote yes you are going to deal with it now.

Please enlighten me with your urban renewal ideas for this parking lot. What do you suggest other than buildings here since it seams that residential, office, and retail don't belong downtown?

It is easy to just say that all development is bad and won't work but I need to hear what your vision for the future Trop site is to weigh the alternatives.

[get smarter]

They've been putting band aids on the Trop since baseball arrived. Sometimes you just can't polish a turd.

What do you do anyways that makes you an expert on "corporate Criminals" Why does business scare you so much? Cities pay out huge incentives to attract large businesses and jobs and you want them to leave. You might think about farming.

[J]

Lets see your urban design expertise at work. What are your idea's for the future Trop site?

[get-smart]

J? Are you the architect?

This is an opportunity for me to refocus.

The Issue: Stadium on the Waterfront.
It's not going to happen Period!
The Waterfront is off limits!

So now that brings us back to the status quo.
We have a team.
we have the Trop.
We (the city) have a contract.
The Rays are stuck here.

As for me, I am not against a new stadium. They can build one with their own money. I am against the destruction of the beautiful downtown waterfront. The whole point of a Waterfront Stadium is pure GREED and EGO. Nothing More, Nothing Less. They are pumping up the value to dump it and then brag to their cohorts how smart they are. That is it! The owners don't care about our St. Pete.

The Rays had no problem in destroying a 90 year Spring Training Tradition in St Petersburg. They didn't think twice about it. They didn't ask for any alternatives or even a team swap. It was premeditated murder of our tradition, and they got away with it.

The Rays are in a rush because they don't care if anything gets done at the Trop or anywhere else. Stu and his buddies will be out of here before spring training next year, with or without a new stadium contract.

---------------

The Trop - #1 issue: How much is it going to cost to clean up? This is the greatest potential deal killer.

No guesstimates. No $100,000 [assuming we don't find more contaminates] estimates. That is not good enough. The clean-up can cost $100 million dollars! That would bankrupt the city. So now where would we be?

For my evidence: You are not going to find any developer that would take the estimate of a city staffer as actual. Nor would they take on the legal liability. It is a time and material job and it is very expensive.

-----------------

The area can be the sports stadium/conference center. Put that huge Wesin Hotel at the Trop. Trying to copy Tampa's Inter'nl Mall theme is ridicules. It is already done. You are too late. To me coping Tampa's Mall is as absurd as opening a VCR/DVD rental joint next to Blockbusters and Blockbusters today is a dinosaur.

The city, working with the Chamber of Commerce need to concentrate on bringing in clean industry into the area. Try to bring back the aero-space industry. We need jobs!

As far as I am concerned residential, office, and retail belong downtown. That's what makes St. Petersburg a livable city.

-

[Kevin Crawmer]

I have inside knowledge of MLB...moving the dome is the best option available to Tampons.

[Frank]

You mentioned that the tallest development was West of 16th St. The drawing seems only to go to MLK. What is happening between MLK and West of 16th?

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

J...What are you talking about. If the Trop site truly merits development then by all means develop it..with or without the Rays. Perhaps you are confused by all the Rays propoganda...Yes under their proposal there is NO stadium without redevelopment at the Trop...however THEY do not control the Trop site..there can be redevelopment whether there is a new stadium or not..whether the Rays stay or leave. The only difference is that if they leave we get ALL THE MONEY. If they stay we have to split any profit with them.

[J]

Concerned citizen,
The site does merit redevelopment, which is why I question the attacks on the proposal for this site. Even just the first phase is 1,000,000 sq ft. That is a tremendous addition to the city. I would love to have options when I leave my office to eat lunch or pick up a birthday gift during lunch. A true downtown has more 6 blocks of pedestrian friendly streetscapes. This development would fill in a massive hole in our downtown and create real incentive for developers to fill in the remaining open lots between this site and the current downtown core.

Will those of you that are against the stadium support redevelopment of this site in the future? I hear some supporting retrofitting the dome or some other non-impact development.

This land was taken by imminent domain from private citizens. The debt was taken on by the city not the Rays. They built it without the input from a team which is why it was out of date the day the Rays moved in. Think of what trouble we would be in if the Rays never came and they built the stadium for nothing. At least the city has had over 10 years of lease revenue. If the original debt is paid off than the city just essentially traded a depressed neighborhood with little tax revenue for a denser high revenue tax stream. I’m not sure that we should be adding these funds against the Rays especially when were talking about money from imminent domain.

I still have not heard any other ideas from those who disagree with the development of the Trop site. If you can argue why this development would not be good for the city without mentioning the waterfront site or corporate greed etc my hat will be off to you.

[since1962]

We know interest exists and that Tropicana surface parking redevelopment is desireable. Lets do this rationally considering community needs and timetables without the rushed "paired" stadium complication.

[J]

Get Smart,

93,000 was the number Mike Conners endorsed and he is the most conservative engineer that your going to find.
For an example of how much dirt were talking about, it would cost that much to remove around 10,000sq ft six feet deep. That is a pretty limited area. I find it hard to believe that Mike Conners has mis-calculated to the tune of 1 million no less 100,000,000 you keep proclaiming. That is a un-founded statement. They have tested and monitored this site extensively.

Also Get smart, do you see anything on the siteplan that resembles international mall. International is a interior loaded mall with a sea of parking surrounding all sides. I would protest that myself. The site plan shows streetscapes and street access to retail more in line with the rest of downtown. I think that narrative is being used more to describe the type of retail but that is a long way off from defining. If you want jobs you should be for this project. I guess you do not count the job loss from the Rays leaving, As they get interested tenants they will accomodate them in the plan. The city is supporting tech jobs incentives such as the 20 mil given to SRI http://www.sri.com/news/releases/113006.html You do know that this is also public money for a private corporation. With the Trop site open there will be other opportunities.

An aside, Anyone interested in sustainable design this site is ripe for LEED principals. Sustainable design would encourage the redevelopment of a brownfield, encourage in fill projects within a existing downtown infrastructure, provide pedestrian friendly access, and tie into bike access by means of the pinellas trail.

[since1962]

The pinellas trail coincidentally and convieniently steamrolling a path directly to proposed stadium site BEFORE THE VOTE?

[J]

1962,
Redevelopment will not occur if the Rays remain at the Trop. The stadium is a third of the site and massive parking garages would need to be paid by someone. The Rays will not pay for them with no return on their investment so that will fall on the city/developer. The city built a parking garage for baywalk and may be asked to poney up money to help support this development parking since to put significant density on whats left they will need major garages.

We do not want them to re build the stadium on the trop site. We lose money from the sale, have less development tax revenue and the stadium will cost more itself. The Rays will still ask for the same incentives and this time it would be for more money.

Toytown is in the crazy category. Right now they are talking about 30 to 50 foot piles for regular buildings no less a stadium. This plan would take years to develop and create a gap between the new stadium construction timeline and the development of the trop site. If you want a cost effective option this is not it.

I too wish they had shown the multiple options and taken more time first so that tax payers could have weighed whether they wanted to pay more to have the stadium elsewhere or go with the cheaper solution of Al Lang even though they don't like the location. Even when I present building designs we usually present multiple options even if some are just plain bad ideas so that everyone is involved in the process and is able come to a aggreement that some issues are tolerated because one option overall is better to the comparable cons of another scheme. The Rays did this evaluation internally and it was a mistake. Now it doesn't matter if Al Lang was the perfect option the damage has been done.

[J]

1962,
The pinellas trail extention has been planned on that route for years based on the CSX easement. Sorry, no conspiracy there but your right it works very well for the stadium.

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/12/31/Neighborhoodtimes/Pinellas_Trail_extens.shtml

[since1962]

BOCC Commissioners and the selected developer of Toytown beg to differ with your "crazy" analysis and would welcome the mix.

[J]

If you want a higher price tag for a longer duration for permitting, the entire amount of structured parking on site because there are no other parking sources, additional infrastucture components including new roads and possible a interstate connection and the general unknowns of building on a 50 foot landfill be my guest. If you think that is a good option you are a true gambler and you not looking to save the city any money. Yes I still call that a crazy comparison when you have people like Get Smart scared about 93,000 in clean up for the trop

That developer is getting that land for free and will entertain any option that covers all of these expenses and that he can then piggy back his own development. They aren't in the business of building things for free.

[since1962]

I stand corrected. The taxpayers have been soaked for lightning fast construction of a trail fragment which MORE THAN DOUBLED IN COST.
Where exactly was the CSX line? A nice little amenity for the Rays indeed.

[J]

1962,
good discourse, I think there is relevance in looking at these options deeply. We may differ in opinion but hopefully most are here on both sides because they're passionate about St. Pete and not just their own self interest. I must say goodnight, my typing is suffering because of the time.

[since1962re j]

J

I'm easily challenged but the BOCC, who hold $100 million of this puzzle?

[J]

The trail originally stopped at Gibbs but most of the trail I believe was originally tracks. I don't think Gibbs was the greatest way to end the trail. Why not bring upcounty bikers right into downtown. It was part of a rails to trails program implemented in many cities to make use of the abandoned easements. Pinellas county paid for most of the trail and keeps it up.

All construction prices have doubled over recent years. You can blame the construction boom and China on that one. Even on regular years there will be increases which delays in a project must account for.

[Paul]

I am clearly out of my area of expertise when it comes to designing a solution if the Trop gets vacated and knocked down. I do no relish at the thought of a planned, vanilla, community replacing it. With that said, I do not have a solution. Retail is unappealing because it adds nothing by way of culture, character or uniqueness. Clean industry, high tech research and development and 'cutting edge' companies/buildings do appeal as they would add to the livability/affordability of our City by providing high paying wages. Too much planned community by one developer sounds a bit too risky. I do not have the answer. How about convention space and a hotel/s to support it with the existing Trop? I have to believe that the Trop can remain functioning for a very long time. Many of the buildings in St Pete are creeping up on 100 years old, and they look great and seem to function quite well.

[Jim]

Sounds like you have 2 choices: go along with the plan for a redelevoped Trop area including retail, parks, and housing, along with a water front staduim. Or vote it down, let the Rays move, and deal with an empty staduim, no means to tear it down and redevelope the area and have an eyesore for the next few decades before it falls down on it's own.

[Dave in St Pete]

Jim,

That is certainly what some want you to believe. I don't, but then I don't think the Rays can leave. I like the hotel / use it as a convention center when not used for baseball idea.

[John]

It's too bad the Rays were so short-sighted by not offering the public any alternatives other than NO.

So, NO, they will get.

[michael]

Interesting:

Read some more. Living trends in the US are skewing back towards URBANization. Todays young professional is moving back to the city. They want centralized living...

[Ron]

There is 27 acres for sale across Gandy Boulevard from Derby Lane. Let the Rays buy that land and build a stadium, then we'll re-develop the trop. The key here is that taxpayer money should not be used to construct this stadium. I wouldn't have a problem with the local governments investing some money in infrastructure improvements to accomodate this stadium.

I gaurantee that the Rays will want complete control of the stadium and it's revenue streams in any lease they sign, so let them pay for the stadium.

[Markos]

move the freakin' stadium to Tampa. none of us like driving 24 miles to see the TAMPA Bay Devil Rays play in crusty, creepy St. Pete. or change the name of the team. the latter is cheaper, and would satisfy our distaste for having a Tampa team play in St. Pete.

[From the Balcony]

Markos, thank you for the incisive commentary. Unlike the rest of us, you seem to really have the benefit of the broad view.

[Ray F]

Markos,

The TAMPA Bay Lightning play in the ST PETE Times Forum. I don't know if you got that memo.

The Bay area is a region.

Do you think Orlando is big???

No dummy. When people say Orlando, they don't mean the 150,000 people in Orlando... they mean Orlando, Kissimmee, Winter Park, Lake Mary, Sanford, Longwood, Altamonte Springs, etc.

Rays' ownership have constantly said that this is a regional team. Why do you think the Florida Marlins are called the Florida Marlins??? Because at the time, it was the only Florida team dummy. Minnesota Twins. Texas Rangers. Arizona Diamondbacks. Utah Jazz. New Jersey Devils. Colorado Avalanche/Rockies.

We are lucky to at least have the team named after our area and not our state.

[Ray F]

For all anybody knows, the Marlins could play in Tallahassee.

[Frank]

What would look better on the Trop site would be a new baseball stadium with some shops and apartments surrounding it. I'd also like to see a partial development of the Al Lang site with the rest (along the water) remaining parkland. Seems like that would be the best of both worlds:

1. New stadium
2. More shopping
3. More housing
4. More stuff on the taxroll
5. Less traffic
6. Less parking issues
7. And many more!

[Bob]

1. The Ray's don't need a new stadium at this time.
2. It is probably not a good time to spend tax dollars on a stadium when many homeownwers are in danger of losing their homes due to high taxes and insurance.
3. It is definitely not a good time to send Florida dollars out of state by hiring a DC firm.
4. Mayor Rick rode the tide of a boom economy. The tide has changed and old strategys are no longer valid.

[Frank]

Bob, I agree but I'd rather help pay for a stadium at the Trop site than have a free stadium built on the waterfront.

[Dave in St Pete]

FRANK!

Sorry, no logical thinking allowed here.

It's a waterfront stadium on our dime for the Rays or nothing. Didn't you get the memo from the Rays?

[Frank]

Dave, I did not get that memo but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the concept of "compromise" will dawn on people sometime soon.

Don't know how much more of this hateful bickering and divisiveness our community can take.

As Jerry Clower used to say, "Just shoot up here amongst us, one of us has got to have some relief!"

[ben]

I am stil voting NO!!! It looks good on paper but no NEED for a new stadium.

[since1962re j]

Since 1962 is not just a screen name and while posessing little "expertise" I do know that expensive infrastructure such as the pinellas trail and FIXED RAIL to transient destinations is shortsighted. I DO support BUS RAPID TRANSIT AND INTELLIGENT TRAFFIC SIGNALIZATION enabling changes WITHOUT costly add ons such as overpasses.BRT allows flexibility to transport the people WHERE they WANT TO GO as demographics or the whims of retailers AND SPORTS TEAMS DICTATE. Webb City, Central Plaza, Wolfies etc were once THE shopping in Pinellas BEFORE MALLS without expensive fixed infrastructure
other than the clogged roadways we now have. Lets not compound the problem for temporary hype & greed.

[Dave]

I'm glad they had the money and time to gather together to hash out plans for the current Trop field, but no time to come up with solid, straight forward answers to some very important questions, such as, how will this be paid for and who will pay for it.

[Rick K]

Much of what I read here makes me laugh.

Some act as though their was no consideration of all these alternatives. Someone points out that it MIGHT have been more successful politically to have the public engaged in the process of dismissing the sup-optimal alternatives, but this could just as easily have damaged the chance that a majority might coalesce around the plan the Rays and the City regard as the optimal plan.

While I favor widespread democratic participation, like a city wide vote on this question, I am aware, from personal experience, that there is such a thing as too much imput. The problem is that those whose expertise is least valuable often are ignorant of that reality, and they often require the group to spend an unbearable amount of time entertaining proposals that the majority of the group quickly dismisses.

The objectives which will be accomplished by these paired redevelopment proposals include the following:
1. The Rays get a new ball park which they are convinced will enhance both their economic and competitive advantages.
2. The Rays extend their commitement to the City.
3. The city and region gain an iconic architectural structure which will bring additional people to the downtown waterfront, correct the currently undersirable underutilization of Al Lang, and more effectively leverage the Rays as a tourism attractor.
4. We end up with more usable public park space downtown than we currently have.
5. We add parking spaces to downtown.
6. We more effectively leverage downtown's historical relationship with professional baseball.
7. We end up with a MLB's first LEED certified ballpark.
8. We tear down the environmental disaster that is the Trop.
9. We get to develop 86 acres in the heart of downtown, bringing thousands of jobs, thousands of restaurants, and billions in taxes that are not otherwise immediately available.
10. The two projects create a synergestic effect, where the combination of their economic and social contributions is greater than the sum of the two separate projects.

Now, the problem with much of the discussion is that many people wish to argue with those objectives.

Fine.

But there really is no better way to work this out. It is the job of major private entities requesting government partnership to do most of the heavy lifting, and streamline the work of City Staff. It is the job of the City staff and City Council to bring the populace concise, clear questions.

Some of the ANTI crowd try to make much about a process in the recent past where a few thousand residents weighed in during a "public Process" in which only a very small relative portion of the citizenry weighed in. They wish that the views of a few hundered or a few thousand would trump the views or preferences of the entire city's voters.

It seems to me, after serious consideration, that the process to date has been almost EXACTLY right.

Those who wish to go back and argue about the third objective are REALLY only trying to deprive the rest of us of the right to make a choice on THESE proposals. Although they feel justified in wanting to postpone the decision making process, their request comes with a cost.

As best I can, when I balance all these competing costs and benefits, I conclude that the people of St. Pete deserve a right to vote on THESE proposals, this November.

The effect of all contrary efforts is to deny the citizens that right.

[Ray F]

wow Rick,

You finally add some passion to our quest.

That's a great list of the intangible benefits of the projects that a lot of people overlook.

[1962re R]

BOCC Stewart finds merit in discussing the Toytown option.
(that pesky 100 million).
As does their chosen developer.

VISION 2020 & LDR rewrites were a charette charade?

CONA?

CLW (largest bed tax contributor) MAYOR FRANK HIBBARD on Bay NEWS 9 ?

The TIMES- This Blog?

ALL IRRELEVANT AND BOTHERSOME?

[John]

Hmm council chair Jamie Bennett and council member Leslie Curran ALSO thought it wise that the Rays either table the proposal or come up with some alternatives. They've stated so REPEATEDLY.

But's they're also irrelevant and bothersome to you, Rick?

[J]

Vision 2020 included stake holders from just about every group across the city and was open to the public. If you did not get involved than you can not claim a charade. You just insulted all of those groups who volunteered time, nice work.

On the LDR revision, Do you know how many flaws there were with the previous zoning ordinance. The old zoning treated St. Petersburg as if it were open land that developers were going to design entire new neighborhoods.

Through out entire neighborhoods such as the old NE the minimum lot sq footage and setbacks required in the code did not match the existing neighborhoods. This means every time you built anything you would be required to pay a variance fee's for a systemic problem. I could go on about this but I think you get the idea. It needed a change badly. There are still things that could be improved but again Charade isn't the correct characterization and a insult.

On Toy town I've already discussed that above. If you want to strap St. Pete, the county, and the Rays with a much more expensive project go ahead and keep calling for Toy town.
-------
Toy town- trading sea breeze for Febreze. When the wind turns your going to have a nice smell from across the interstate there. Should go well with hot dogs.

[J]

Leslie has more than strongly suggested pushing this until next year. I don't disagree. I think more time to work out the details, get the best deal negotiated, and allow the knee jerk reactions on both sides to simmer down would be a good thing.

I haven't heard any about recommendations to table it indefinitely, table it for next year yes.

[John]

J, by saying "table it", I mean just that. Until the Rays can offer a responsible, detailed plan beyond a high-school quality power point presentation, where the numbers on the speadsheet shift like the sand on Upham Beach.

No matter what happens, they'll never get it on the water, the citizens of St. Pete are simpy too protective of it, and that is reality.

[Rick K says what?]

I don't get why you people read things other than what I wrote and ascribe your imangined readings to me.

I have not said previous processes for citizen imput were a charade. I have said all along that a CITY WIDE election is preferable to a less inclusive sampling of preferences.

That isn't an insult to those who participate in the narrower forums, but an endorsement for WIDER PARTICIPATION.

1962 and John, I don't confuse what politicians say with what is best. The two are very often disconnected so completely as to render any reliance upon the public positioning of politicians a fools mission.

And I am not bothered at all by this process. You must have missed the ENTIRE point of my post, which was that I find this process (with these various politicians saying whatever they say, and posters here posting whatever, and the Times writing whatever) to be EXCELLENT.

I was merely pointing out that much of the argument presented in this blogs is not designed to move the community closer to a resolution - much of the debate (more generally offered by the organized ANTI side) is designed to Confuse, delay, obfuscate, and deny the citizens a right to have a say in these important questions.

I totally "get" that some people in every group decision want more discussion, and wish to delay the vote. I have seen it my whole life.

So has everyone.

In my view, the timeline for the community-wide consideration and discussion of these proposals is just about right.

That you think I am frustrated by the timeline means you missed my point completely.

[John]

Rick, you silly spinster....

The referendum is solely for a land-use change on Al Lang. There is no need to vote to change the land use when the Rays have not satisfied ONE SINGLE government body they're requesting hundreds of millions of dollars from.

They've had 7 months to do so.

They've failed.

They only have roughly 6 weeks left.

Until the BOCC and City Council are satisfied in full with the Rays proposal (which neither are even close), there is no need to vote on Al Lang. Period.

[Rick K has 6 weeks]

We will see.

[J]

St. Petersburg website history

Through the 1920s, St. Petersburg continued to have strong tourist years. During the Depression, the real estate boom crashed. St. Petersburg recovered, though, with large Public Works Administration projects in the 1930s, which helped the city begin its economic recovery with $10 million in new investment. St. Petersburg’s City Hall was built with New Deal federal funds in 1939.

(So if construction was good then to get us out of the depression why would this not help now in a almost recession but not quite economy)

[1962rej]

J

Bear Creek Developers of Toytown are not competent according to you? The BOCC from whom the Rays MUST get 100 million strongly disagree.Toytown is safe enough for this massive development but not the "delicate" Rays fans?
Imagine the arial shots of THAT development broadcast WORLDWIDE!

[J]

1962 quote
"Webb City, Central Plaza, Wolfies etc were once THE shopping in Pinellas BEFORE MALLS without expensive fixed infrastructure other than the clogged roadways we now have.

Posted by: since1962re j | June 17, 2008 at 11:54 AM
-------------------------

Sorry 1962 your revising history. I guess you weren't around when they took out all of the streetcars serving those area's of downtown even accessing the pier. I think your getting on some strange tangent there anyways but your statement is false.

Did you protest the Pinellas trail too?

[John]

J

Because a baseball stadium is not a public works project.

And these aren't "New Deal Dollars", this is city and county taxpayer money.

Why doesn't the city "invest" in attracting more convention/trade show business to the Trop which sits mostly empty the 284 days a year the Rays aren't home?? The new ballpark will also sit empty those 284 days, and it doesn't even have the possibility of attracting that type of business.

We don't need more shops and apartments, we need more visitors and businesses coming here.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Rick K.

I won't waste your time with a philosophical debate about whether society gets a better result from the few citizens who CARE enough, get INVOLVED enough, and become INFORMED enough who take part in visioning sessions, charettes and other activities that were widely promoted, free, and encouraged by city staff;or from the mob of folks that turn out once very four years egged on by the billons of dollars of political advertising, most of it negative, the rest an attempt by special interests with deep pockets to SELL their money making schemes(Rays). We don't even have to address the fairness of having a staff led by a man (Kalt) who is earning a high six figure salary for owners who stand to earn a quarter of a billion (conservative estimate based on historic precedent)with deep pockets competing against a grass roots (POWW) group staffed only by volunteers who work countless hours for NOTHING other than the love of their precious city.

We don't have to discuss any of that!!!
Just one question? When this thing gets destroyed at the polls in November will you cease lobbying for out of town rich people to get richer at St. Pete's expense? There are plenty of suckers in Tampa/Hillsborough to pick up the tab. Or how about Orlando where they really can stick it all to the tourists and Mickey.

In other words Rick K when we crush this in November will that be the end, or will we have to repeat our volunteerism year after year after year?

[J]

1962,
I said nothing about safety or being incompetent , I simply said it would be much more expensive and take much more time to permit, this is supported by the times as well.

Please illustrate how you would propose to save money at that location?

Do you think they will be looking west in that aerial your talking about. Great view of the interstate and a dump. That will sure advertise St. Pete to the world.

[get-smart]

J

The "New Deal" didn't get us out of the depression! It Was The Second World War!

[John]

J

Not that I think Toytown is the right place, but Toytown is 30-50' higher than the surrounding landscape. Which means, if they build the stadium on pilings there (which they'd have to), and faced the stadium towards Tampa, the average fan would be 75-150' above street-level. Which means un-obstructed views of Tampa Bay, and downtown Tampa in the distance.

Use some creativity before saying the view will be of a dump and an interstate.

[J]

More convention space puts us in direct competition with Orlando which doesn't only have a huge public center but huge convention complexes such as the World Marriott. This would be a expensive project as well and risky based on the proximity to Orlando. The 600 room hotels proposed will have some convention space.

You should voice the programs you want. There is such a mix of use here that there is room for many of your suggestion. A convention center is fine will me as long as they continue the street grid and continue mixed use throughout the site. You should be able to live work and play within walking distance. That is the goal here.

[John]

J

Wait a sec, you want to build 600 hotel rooms...AND tear down the "convention center?" Seriously?? LOL!!! Who's going to stay in those rooms???

We have a BETTER draw than Orlando for conventions, some of the most beautiful beaches in the country (and unlike Disney, they're FREE!). We also have a beautifull downtown (unlike Tampa or Orlando), and plenty of hotel rooms IN PLACE to easily compete with Tampa OR Orlando.

[Ray F]

John,

"average fan would be 75-150' above street-level. Which means un-obstructed views of Tampa Bay, and downtown Tampa in the distance."

Just what the St Pete City Council had in mind... an unobstructed view of Downtown Tampa.

I'm sure that'll help sell toytown as a potential site. Why don't we line the streets with Red Sox and Yankee banners while we're at it???

Instead, how about we all start waving the Confederate flag like the rednecks in East Hillsborough.

I'm sorry John, but that was the dumbest comment you've made yet.

[John]

Yes Ray, but it's at a location that doesn't ruin our downtown waterfront, yet still fulfills one of the Rays desires....so how is that dumb??

You talking about rednecks and yankees banners, is what's dumb

[J]

John, 1962 was talking about the aerial vie of the stadium. That site is still far away from the water, I assume you might see it in the distance.

I'm more concerned about Toy towns cost.

Get smart, (its a qoute from St. Petersburg History not mine) It put people to work and helped stimulate the economy in areas that received projects. Yes WW2 finally ended the depression showing that global war is the best remedy for depression but lets try construction projects first.

[Ray F]

John,

The Orange County Convention Center lists 67 events up until December in their facility alone.

The St Pete/Clearwater Visitors Beureau Lists 68 for the whole Pinellas County area.

I may be wrong, but I'm gonna guess that there are far more locations than the Orange County Convention center having Conventions this year in the Orlando Area and that would eclipse our 68.

Sorry, you're wrong to say we have a better draw than Orlando.

[John]

How do you know it's not a better dray, Ray, we haven't tried it yet??

Ohhhhh but it's OK to gamble on YOUR vision of the Trop, but mine is just wrong??

Rick K is rubbing off on you, dude.

[Ray F]

...and John,

How do go about saying that a view of Downtown Tampa is one of the Rays goals???

If a view of Downtown Tampa was a goal, they wouldn't have proposed a stadium in Downtown St. Pete.

And I can see the Bay, the Gulf, Downtown Tampa, the Skyway, and Bradenton if i lifted myself 150 feet over my house too maybe they should put the stadium there.

[J]

Who said anything about tearing down convention centers, I just don't think that should be the main focus.

You may think St. Pete has a better draw than Orlando for Conventions but you would be wrong. I too like St. Pete better but business families come to convention locations that excite the family and kids. It's hard to compete there with the mouse. They already so many centers there. If there were more demand here than centers will be built.

[1962rej]

"febreez and hot dogs"
Is your exact quote j

Again TOYTOWN WILL be developed into a MAJOR retail, residential,office, hotel, site which COULD increase and MAINTAIN the RAYS desired fan base from surrounding areas. .Grady Pridgen has invested heavily across 275 with a huge development which will change the entrance to St Pete forever.THE BOCC would certainly be more willing to commit funds for that site.

[John]

Ray, if you didn't KNOW that I was referring to views of the Bay as my reference to the Rays goal....but instead, you just posted nonsense because the fact stands that either location would indeed offer views of the Bay.

[Mal]

Ray F
Your view is obstructed by a big old sail. Just like eveyone else downtown would be.

[Ray F]

"We have a BETTER draw than Orlando for conventions"

What's the draw??? The beach???

Ask any 5 year old whether they would rather go to the beach or Disney and get back to me.

I'm not arguing the allure of our beaches and I've never said we need to replace the motels with 30 story condos. All I'm saying is putting a large convention center in place of the Trop is going to make as much money for St Pete than having the Trop there. Put residents there and you get tax money. Think of all the corporate welfare the city would have to dole out to lobby against Disney for conventions...

Why trade 1 for 1???

I'll even concede a small bit. Why not build a small convention center? Sure. I think it's a fine idea. But why build one the size of Orlando's more than 25 minutes from the International Airport when you just have to cross the BeeLine to get to Orlando's???

That doesn't make much sense.

[John]

LOL at J...

Nah, wives and kids HATE going to the beach!! And dad's stuck in a convention or trade show I'm sure would much rather fork out hundreds of dollars to placate their family during the day for Disney, instead of sending them to Treasure Island for a day of inexpensive fun 10 minutes away.

Yeah, Orlando has so much more to offer the budget conscious conventioneer...

Oh and J...you didn't answer my question...WHO is going to sustain 600 additional hotel rooms on a brownfield site, in the middle of a new neighborhood, with no Trop Convention center???

[Rick K says]

Again with the inane mammering about alternatives that have already been rejected as being less than optimal....

[Ray F]

Mal,

I would gladly stare like a zombie at a sail than look at smoke billowing from a dump.

[J]

So 1962 your argument is that it's OK to pay more for the stadium if the county is more willing to pick up the tab.

your qoute "THE BOCC would certainly be more willing to commit funds for that site."

Isn't that the same funds that everyone is arguing about. I guess for you it's not about money at all. You just don't want it on Al Lang at any cost. Thats fine to have that opinion.

You have not even attempted to argue that this site would cost us more because there is no argument that would support you there.

[John]

Ray spinning it again...you wouldn't see the incinerator if the toytown ballpark faced the bay....can I call you Rick K junior?

[J]

John,
The hotels will have there own convention component much like the Hilton or Marriott in Rocky point.

Overall the city has expressed a current need for hotel space to support general city tourism.

[John]

J

Have you done a detailed construction cost-estimate between Toytown & Al Lang or are you just guessing it'll be more expensive.

Both parcels have been offered for free.

Even the Rays stated "A ballpark with a sail is NOT our 1st choice, we'd rather have a retractable-roof stadium, but one will NOT FIT at Al Lang"...

But Toytown DOES have room for a retractable roof stadium, doesn't it??

[Mal]

Ray F
If you're going to stare like a zombie what's wrong with the Trop?

[J]

John,
It's cool lets have a huge convention center, I don't care as I said before, just make it fit with the rest of the development. Do your demographics and submit the idea the public and the developer.

[Rays Mike]

The sail is not the first option, but the Al Lang location is. It is called a compromise... Just like there will be a compromise between the team, city, and county with regards to final funding.. Even the most ardant Al Lang location supporters like myself know that the Rays will probably have to pony up more $$$ to get this thing even on the ballot.....

[Ray F]

John,

The aerial views on TV will show the surrounding area and I'm sure more than one shot will show the dump.

Mal,

The debate isn't about what's wrong with the Trop. The debate is about the Rays plan to build a waterfront ballpark. I never said there is anything wrong with the Trop. I'll watch them play underground if that's where they played. But I would rather have a gem of a park overlooking the Bay and I'll be happy to allow the county to use tourist dollars to pay for it.

Hell, what does it matter... if John McCain rigs the election like uncle GW did, the tourists will have to worry about a view of offshore oil rigs and we won't have to worry about sails or dumps obstructing our views.

[John]

Rays Mike that is not a compromise, they didn't negotiate with anyone to come to a "compromise".

Rather, the Rays "settled" on a sail. And they REFUSE to COMPROMISE on alternative locations.

We voters are going to FORCE the Rays to offer alternatives, or pound sand.

[J]

John,
They also said that the retractable roof would be I believe the number was 50 million when you also include AC.

If you need a detailed cost estimate to tell you that a retractable roof dome on piles, over a landfill, with 1000's of parking spaces because it's not in a downtown,and with minimal existing infrastructure costs more than a unconditioned, suitable soils, minimal new parking(agree or not) and minimal infrastructure changes.....then I just can't help you.

Do you really believe it would be the same or do you just like to keep up the discussion.

[John]

No, J

If you actually read my post earlier, you'd see I made it clear at the very beginning of this exhange that I said Toytown was not my 1st choice.

But being a reasonable person (unlike most of the people having temper trantrums if the Rays don't get what they want), I was willing to engage you as to ALTERNATIVES, pros and cons, etc.

[Rays Mike]

There is one huge problem with the Trop - people don't want to go there because of the perception that it is a lousy place to watch the game. Sure, it will bring big crowds if the Wanks, Sux, or Cubs are in town, or if there is a Commodores concert after the game (still scratching my head about that one), but until this team can consistantly win and develop diehard fans who like Ray F and myself would would watch them play underground, you will still get the 13,000 crowd Tuesday night attendance figures in the Dome. Remember.. The AVERAGE MLB crowd is about 29,000, and in the summer, most of those games are played in hot weather, in cities where there are lot's of other leasure options, whatever the excuse that you want to use down here. You will get big attendance for two reasons - 1) (the big one) WIN. 2) Have a destination ballpark. Have you seen how awful the Mariners and Nationals have been this year? But check out their attendance this year... All at the league average.

[Rick K says]

This notion that the Rays are not and have not been involved in a month's long series of negotiations is complete fantasy.

The Rays have steered away from ToyTown and towards AL Lang at the request of the City and County governments.

Are you people not paying attention?

Toy town is not downtown, on the waterfront.

[John]

Wrong again, Rays Mike,

The BOCC has offered plenty of space at Toytown for a retractable roof ballpark FOR FREE, knowing the central location would benefit Rays attendence, and the Rays snubbed their noses at them.

And no, the Rays did not NEGOTIATE with ANYONE about the sail. They did the math internally and discovered their 1st choice would not fit. That is called SETTLING. NOT, COMPROMISE.

[Rays Mike]

John - What, then, is your first choice regarding a location for new stadium? And for the record, are you a Rays and/or baseball fan or not? It would help me understand where you are coming from if I knew...

[John]

And if you go to TBO.com and read the sentiments from nearly every person from Tampa, their biggest reason for not going to Rays games has nothing to do with the Trop, and EVERYTHING to do with their percieved "hassle" of having to drive to downtown St. Pete.

[Rick K says]

There has been negotiation. As is far too frequently the case with John's post. He makes claims about which he is uninformed.

The Rays have compromised a great deal. And will continue to.

John will probably still deny it.

But that will not matter.

[Rays Mike]

OK. I concede, since I know that semantics are more important victories for you than the actually issues (since you made it a point to correct me twice already..) The Rays settled on a sail, not compromised on one. But I think you know what my point was... This admission is sure to doom the Rays hope for a new stadium anywhere in West Central Florida, we will save our beloved Al Lang parking lot for future generations...

[John]

Rays Mike,

As a native of St. Pete, I hold 4 season tickets for myself and my family, have so for almost 5 years.

I'm also a Bucs season ticket holder and I buy 10-packs of lightning tickets.

What games we don't go to, the tickets get handed to friends and other family members, so they're almost always used.

My first choice is waiting a few years until the economy stabilizes, building a convention style hotel on the east end of the Trop property, with its own dedicated parking deck. Relocate lost parking by utilizing lots west of the Trop. And partnering with the Rays to attract more non-baseball sporting events, trade shows, conventions, etc.

In a few years, either rebuild the Trop or convert it to a retractable roof, if that is feasable.

In the meantime, since the only direction that downtown can grow is westwards (towards the Trop), new business, condos, shops and restaraunts will fill in the gap to service conventions, trade shows, baseball games, other sporting events, etc.

The original "vision" of the Dome, was a good one, we just didn't work hard enough to make it successful. We got the team, and then rested on our laurels, so to speak.

[Ray F]

try the caption... it's fantastic.

[Rays Mike]

There is 50,000 less people Pinellas in as there are in Hillsborough .. Both big enough metropolitian areas in their own right to support a team on their own.. Where are the people from Clearwater, Tarpon Springs? If they aren't driving to St. Pete, they won't drive to Tampa... Unless the win, or have a destination ballpark, which will finance winning on a more consistant basis.. Plus, Bradenton/Sarasota are closer to St. Pete than Tampa.

And let the record show that this is about the seventh time I have asked John a direct question, and he has refused to answer..

[Rays Mike]

I apologize to John.. He answered while I was typing..

[Bob]

um.....Check the updates census numbers from 2007. There's almost 300,000 more people in Hillsborough than in Pinellas. There's also these places called Lakeland and Pasco county which would be much closer to a stadium in Hillsborough. These places are full of people with families, the exact crowd the Rays want to attract. Trust me, they're just trying to make the best of being "stuck" in St. Pete with this proposal. They're hoping to God that this stadium will create a destination these people will want to drive to, unlike now. And all the richest people in the entire metro region live in South Tampa. Those people won't even go north of Kennedy, let alone drive to St. Pete. You people ae living in a fantasy land......hence the comment about St. Pete being a bigger draw than Orlando to conventioners. The citizens of St. Pete are seriously delusional. Seriously.

[No Bob]

Bob knows not of what he speaks.

Recent local history has taught us that a consistent winning team with recognizable local guys will bring fans from far and wide.

It happened with the Bucs.
It happened with the Lightning.
It will happen with the Rays.

This business about more fans would come if the ballpark were in Tampa is identical to the claim that was made about these other teams, which both drew more fans from Pinellas than from Hillsborough before the teams reached perennial playoff status.

[Mackine!]

If you open your eyes, you will see the light. Walk to the light; it is good. The light is glowing orange from a Rays win over and on a clear night our friends in Ruskin will see the dome on the waterfront of St. Pete where it rightfully belongs.

movethedome.com