BayNews 9: Talk of bed tax stirring debate along beaches

Our friends at BayNews 9 did a nice piece on the 1 percent hotel bed tax in play in the Rays' $450-million financing plan for a new waterfront stadium. You can see the report here.

Currently, a five percent hotel tax is attached to people staying in Pinellas hotels. Of that, one percent is dedicated to fund Tropicana Field construction. The Rays are asking that tax to be extended and redirected to fund a new ballpark.

The money, about $5.4-million last year, can only be used to fund sports stadiums or convention centers or fund beach renourishment or on tourism marketing. The Tourist Development Commission is expected to make a non-binding recommendation to the Pinellas County Commission on extending the tax in July. The county will then be free to vote either to extend the tax or not. It needs four of seven votes to pass.

Comments

[Kyle]

First

[Let us vote NO!!]

Get ready, Mike, Stu, Rick Baker and rabid, selfish Rays proposal supporters, the TDC has an early Christmas present in July for you!!!

Hooray, TDC!!!

[Thomas]

The next item that needs to be brought into the open immediately is the lease term sheet for any new proposed stadium.

Has anyone seen what is going on in St. Louis?

.......................................
Thirteen years ago, the city of St. Louis built the Edward Jones Dome entirely with public money. The public cost is about $36 million a year, for 30 years. Included in the team's lease was a "state-of-the-art" clause: If the stadium does not rank in the top 25 percent of the NFL by 2015, the city - and the taxpayers - must commit to building a new state-of-the-art stadium, or the Rams can claim breach of contract.

In Cincinnati, the Bengals lease is even more onerous, specifying that the county must install any new technologies in use by 14 other NFL teams, up to and including "holographic replay systems."

......................................

The City Council MUST demand that all lease terms be published prior to allowing this proposal to move forward.
Otherwise, the taxpayers will be put at risk.
How much of the revenues generated at the stadium would be shared with the city/county that's paying to build it?
Are there any "state-of-the-art clauses", as above, included?

[Rick K]

Thomas, you are over-reaching.

At best, the City needs to make the lease terms available to the public within a reasonable period preceeding the expected November 4 election.

Not today.

[Dave in St Pete]

Yeah! We don't need any stinkin' information. At least not yet. Let's string it out so that there will be no time to study or question the 'deal'.

[Thomas]

It's not over-reaching to ask for the details before you put something on the ballot.

This "oh well, they'll just fill it in later" is reaching.

The fanatical devotion of supporters makes even the most basic of concepts difficult for them.

No one is saying to keep this off the ballot - what they're saying is force the Rays to present a COMPLETE PLAN before you allow them access to a referendum.

It's pretty basic.

[Rick K]

Thomas, many people ARE in fact trying to get this off the ballot.

The truth is, if this proceeds to a ballot question this November, we will have the widest possible voter participation, which is a good and desirable condition.

The ANTI's offer dozens of reasons why we shouldn't vote this November.

But they all amount to the same thing.

[Thomas]

It's not ANTI's, it's MAJORITY's. (68%)

The Rays have until that August date to get all the info published.

If they fail to present a complete plan - then the City Council should reject the referendum request.

To suggest that the Rays can just fill in different aspects of the plan along the way is completely irresponsible.

[Rick K]

Thomas, keep telling YOURSELF that the ANTI's comprise the majority of likely voters.

I will keep referring to them by their more accurate label.

Apart from that, I think we can agree.

I think that the Lease Terms should be worked out by the August deadline, and made available.

I think we should have all of the following in hand by then: reasonable construction cost estimates; an actual parking plan reviewed by the City; construction timelines; professional letters of opinion regarding the liklihood of relevant approvals from government oversight agencies; audited projections of energy savings (of the new stadium compared to the Trop); commitment from Major League Baseball to bring an AllStar game to St Pete; commitment from the College Bowl game to continue playing at the new stadium; and Rays/MLB marketing numbers showing likely projected attendance figures.

I think we could get all that by August.

[Danny Boy]

An extra 1% that will likely come from tourists instead residents. Looks like they are sticking to their word with this one. Sounds good to me.

[Thomas]

And if we don't get it all by August, then you would agree that it's the civic responsiblity of the Council to shelf the referendum until those details are provided?

[Rick K]

Thomas, I am ALMOST there.

I want to leave a little wiggle room, in case something comes up where we don't get one of the things I want, but there is a pretty good reason, or it will be coming out way in advance of the election in November.

But I do think we should have most all of those things (if not ALL of them) by the August deadline, sure.

[Thomas]

That's cool.

I hope you review the details objectively. I've said it before, but sometimes it bears repeating:

You can be a huge Rays fan and still oppose this deal on it's merits.

- You can wear a Crawford 13 jersey and oppose this.

- You can dominate your fantasy league (full of Yankee and Red Sox fans) with Navarro's .352, Upton's 17 swipes, Kazmir's sick K per Inning split and still oppose this.

- You can have enjoyed every game you attended at the Trop (with due respect to Tony Sauders) and still oppose this.

Being a fan doesn't mean you just ignore civic responsibility and blindly support anything the team puts out.

[Dave in St Pete]

Just watched the report.

When did they say the TDC was going to kill this turk...uuuhh, I mean send their recommendation to the City Council to go pound sand? July, I think.

Good, then maybe the Council can get back to doing city business like finding ways to recruit and keep more LEOs and teachers. You know, stuff that is actually important.

That 1% should go where it was generated, the beaches. That is what brings the tourists, our beautiful beaches.

[Ray F]

Dave,

Are you aware that the county was just going to give ToyTown to the Rays??? Obviously, the BOCC is convinced the Rays are an economic stimulant to the county otherwise they would have been told to pack sand.

Maybe you missed the part where the 1% is MEANT to go towards Sports Stadiums. Maybe, the Rays should conduct a little experiment and stop allowing every single mom and pop place on the beach from advertising their close proximity to the Tampa Bay Rays' Tropicana Field. I bet the Red Sox fans flying down to watch their team play (which suprisingly, I've met quite a few because all their games are sold out) would stay in St Pete because they wouldn't know about a lot of those little places if it weren't for the Rays.

But of course, that's just speculation on my part.

[Thomas]

"I've met quite a few because all their games are sold out"

April 25 vs Boston
Time: 4:00.
Attendance: 30,290

April 26 vs Boston
Time: 2:47.
Attendance: 36,048 * Sell Out

April 27 vs Boston
Time: 2:25.
Attendance: 32,363

So now 1 out of 3 is "ALL" - Interesting math Ray.

[Dave in St Pete]

Ray F,

Maybe you missed where the 1% is MEANT to go to beach re-nourishment and tourism! (see how you easy it is to spin like you did by only mentioning one part of the truth). I said it should stay where it was raised. I did not say it could not be used for the stadium (though I think it should not be).

Are you aware that Toy Town is a dump and has restrictions on use so that giving it to the Rays is no big deal. Did you miss the part where I have always said that Gandy or Toy Town (depending on the deal) would be fine by me.

Boy this is fun being a blog bully! Now I see why you do it. Doesn't take any real thought or work, just attacking.

And just how would the big bad Rays bully the 'mom and pop' places on the beach into not stating a fact such as the Rays play in St Petersburg? That IS public knowledge you know and though I'm not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV) I'm willing to bet that there is no way the Rays can (or would want to) keep them from doing so (it is also free advertising for the Rays, you know).

Have a nice day!

[Ray F]

Red Sox games at Fenway genius. You people definately need to wipe the fog off of your goggles.

[Ray F]

...And beach communities get half of that. So what that means is, that the rest of the municipalities in Pinellas county get squat. Obviously, the tax was meant to support the team primarily and to get it approved, the county had to sweeten the pot for beach communities because they have most of the tourists who pay the bed tax. So, I think extending the bed tax and allowing the beach communities to reap the benefits is a great idea. You have a nice day too Dave in St Pete.

...and for the record, I don't see how I'm a blog bully. Maybe you only read posts from supporters, because I've seen some pretty snotty remarks from opponents as well. I would say my posts are mostly light-hearted- full of joy and cheer for all to read and soak in. Further, I think the world is a better place because of people like you and me who speak are mind about all issues ranging from stadium debates to teen pregnancies to the affect of global warming on fashion trends in India.

[Thomas]

Ray,

That's cool, it just reads awkwardly.

I recant and apologize for misinterperting.

[Rick K]

Dave, it is very funny when you pretend the ANTI-ANTI side is bullying.

But moving on.

Dave you are wrong. As currently enacted, the 1 % bed tax on all hotels in the county (not just the ones on the beach) can ONLY be used for the Trop or for a Convention Center (of which there are none).

Tourism taxes are raised in this county, Dave, to be spent (not just in this county, by the way) to bring tourists to this county. A large portion of these taxes are spent buying advertising outside of this county. This only makes sense.

The question before the TDC is, if they were to do away with the penny that is currently used to pay debt on the Trop, once that debt is retired, and instead collect the same penny and use it on beach renourishment or marketing, would the return on that investment exceed the return on investing in a new downtown waterfront stadium occupied by the Rays.

[Ray F]

I'm sorry for being a bully. Thomas... (((HUGS)))

[Thomas]

I'm sorry too Ray, I'm just a "sports hating ANTI" ((( hugs )))

[Dave in St Pete]

Rick K,

Did you listen to the report? It clearly states that the tax can be for stadium, tourism and beach re-nourishment.

[Let us vote NO!!]

Ray F said this:

"So, I think extending the bed tax and allowing the beach communities to reap the benefits is a great idea"

Ummm, Ray? They are not "extending the bed tax", the bed tax is already in place, has been in place and will continue to be in place. The "extending" part has to do with handing the Rays that money(instead of tourist development) for an additional 25 years AFTER the current arrangement expires in 7 or so years. (that $$ was designated to pay for the Trop, not to benefit the Rays).

[Ray F]

So... shouldn't Tarpon Springs be equally upset if all those tourist dollars go to the beach instead of helping Alt19 to ease traffic thru downtown???

Maybe all the old fashioned folks here aren't hip to the deal that was made. (((NOTE: This may be my underlying conspiracy theory talking)))

When the commision ok'd the money to go toward the Trop, they had to come up with a reason for the county voters to buy into the idea... therefore they put the little provision into the "bed Tax" that a majority of the money would go towards improving the beach communities. Isn't it ironic that the bed tax would go away when the trop was paid off??? Hmmm provocative, I'm sure. In lay terms... why would I ask for 1 and get .25 when I can ask for 5 and get 1???

Sorry peeps... it's called crooked politics and you're never going to get rid of it so you may as well learn to live with it.

[Ray F]

Let US Vote,

soooo... paying for the Trop doesn't benefit the Rays? The bed tax expires in 2015. So you are wrong in saying that it will continue to be in place.

[Rick K]

Dave, that is true in a sense. The tax as currently enacted cannot be used to promote tourism or for beach renourishment.

I make this assertion based upon an explanation I witnessed (online via live video stream) of the BOCC meeting where the Commissioners discussed this with the County Attorney responsible for giving legal advice about tax issues.

As I understand it, not withstanding anything that local journalists may have said, the "fourth" cent tax is a local option tax, enacted by the County for various specific purposes, detailed at the time the local option tax is enacted.

The existing penny which pays for the Trop debt service can ONLY be used for the Trop or for a convention center (or similar large building, with certain strict limitations).

If I recall the statements of the County's tax attorney at that meeting, he told them that it would be possible for the County to enact a fourth cent tax under different legislation, and then use those proceeds for beach renourishment or tourism promotion.

Based on his understanding, it seems that the current one penny tax was enacted to be used specifically to pay debt service on the Trop.

I got the impression from the Attorney's statements to the Commission that it would be possible (when, I am not sure) to rescind the fourth cent tax as enacted now, and replace it with a differently enacted fourth cent local option bed tax, which could then be used for other specific purposes.

Regardless, the question will remain,
which use of the fourth cent tax will provide a greater return to the County's tourism industry?

[Let us vote NO!!]

Ray, Ray, Ray, you just don't "get it"...

In 7 years, when the Trop is paid off, that bed tax money that has been diverted FROM tourist development will revert BACK TO tourist development. It's not going to just "stop".

The Rays want that money to pay for their new home. The beach mayors want that money to lure tourists and renourish the beaches to "help" protect them from the eventuality of a hurricane striking us.

My money is on the beach mayors and the TDC telling the BOCC that the Rays can "go pound sand" (haha I made a funny, get it? Beach/sand?).

Only once in history has the BOCC gone against the TDC's recommendation.

Not good odds, my friend.

[Let us vote NO!!]

Rick K said:

"The existing penny which pays for the Trop debt service can ONLY be used for the Trop or for a convention center (or similar large building, with certain strict limitations)".

Another blatant lie from our spinster, RrrrriCK!!!

[Ray F]

Sooo... the tax will be kept by scaring people by threatening annihilation by a hurricane??? I can see the ad campaign now.

"Come visit the beautiful beaches of Pinellas County... Now with 1% less liklihood of death by Hurricanes."

get real. Maybe you live in a world where you have to follow what the scare tactics that are employed against you tell you to follow... i don't understand.

[Rick K]

Let us vote No is demonstrating his propensity for idiocy.

Rick K said, in a lengthy post, that he understands the County's tax attorney to have advised the Board of County Commissioners that the existing penny bed tax as enacted can NOT be used for beach renourishment or promoting tourism.

And, Rick K just looked it up. His memory was correct!

[Let us vote NO!!]

It's not a scare tactic, moron. It's called reality. Take a drive out to Upham beach sometime and take a look at the ridiculous looking "geo-tubes" they put out in the water to attempt to keep the sand in place. You're obviously NOT from here or you'd know how often and how expensive it is to keep sand on those beaches.

Scare tactic? You're the one with the scare tactics..."build it or we lose the Rays and return to "the green bench city"....spare me with your nonsense.

But hey, we'll just see how that works out for ya, come July!! LMAO!!

[Let us vote NO!!]

Rick K

LOL....that's all I have for you...as in, you're a joke, dude.

[Thomas]

Why dont we have the county propose a referendum that allows the use of the bed tax to be applied where it is most needed instead of for a Rays stadium.

[Ray F]

When have I called you a name like moron???

I think that's a childish way to avoid civil debate. and I am from here and I know about beach renourishment. I also know that dumping a few tons of sand on a beach isn't going to save it from the apocalyptic Cat. 5 you're envisioning. As far as scare tactics go, the Rays have never said they were leaving town. I feel they will leave town if they don't get a new stadium, but never did I say that the Rays leaving would leave a hundred thousand people homeless like you assume would happen if the penny tax wasn't diverted to beach renourishment in time to protect from Hurricane Billy Bob.

I will not lower myself to calling you names. If you wish to continue calling me names, please use more colorful words.

[Let us vote NO!!]

Again, we'll see how that works out for you, come July when the BOCC votes, SIR.

Is that better? The outcome will be the same. LMAO!!!

[Rick K]

Dave:

Since I think you are telling me that BayNews 9 said something different from what I heard the County's tax attorney tell the BOCC, I thought it might be good to provide a link to the Attorney talking with County Commissioners.

Meeting minutes of the 5/20/08 Pinellas County Commission meeting are not yet available online.

Go to the link, and click on item #39, the attorney appears about 2/3 of the way in.

http://www.pinellascounty.org/media/bcc_2008_05_20/Results.htm

[Thanks to Rick K]

Appreciate the link which cuts through the BS

[Don in St. Pete]

Sorry Rick K. but you have it spun wrong again. That was an answer to a question but I also heard the Attorney for the County tell the BOCC that .25 of the penny is now used by the beach communities to promote tourism. You'd better go back and watch the whole video. The Attorney also said the money could be all shifted to the beaches to promote tourism. No Waterfront Stadium!

[Truth Detector]

I cannot agree with Don from St Pete. Rick K's detailed description is a more accurate reflection of the law surrounding the current local option bed tax.