Bed tax talk

The county Tourist Development Council has just started its monthly meeting. The Rays are the second item on the agenda. The first is a presentation from a member of the Hillsborough TDC... He's not exactly setting the tone the Rays would probably like.

He just said: "You need to be really judicious with the dollars your spending today. Your bed tax dollars are not going to go in an upward direction."

Of course, the Rays are asking the county to tie up about 20 percent of its tourist hotel tax revenues from 2015 to at least 2040.

UPDATE: Rays president Matt Silverman is at the podium, taking TDC members through a general overview of the stadium and redevelopment project.

UPDATE: The meeting is just wrapping up.  The TDC is expected to make a recommendation at its July 9 meeting. 

Comments

[John]

Silverman looks like a lamb trying to convince the lions not to eat him for lunch. What a poor presentation.

[Rick K]

John sees what he wants to see.

I think Mr. Silverman's presentation is exceptional, and having seen some of the numbers which estimate the impact the Rays have on beach tourism, I will be VERY surprised if the Pinellas County Commission doesn't approve an extension of the bed tax.

[John]

Care to make a wager, Rick? $1000.00 to my favorite charity says the TDC recommends not to extend the 4th cent bad tax to the Rays as the request was presented today.

You're very bold with your keyboard, but me thinks you don't have the cajones to back it up.

You've obviously not met those people, nor the people they represent.

And Kudos to Leslie Curran, you go girl!

[Rick K]

John, my bet is that the BOCC will approve moving forward with an extentsion of the bed tax, regardless of what the TDC says today.

Wanna wager?

Cuz I do have $1000 for charity that backs up my view on this. I prefer not to bet on something that doesn't mean all that much.

[John]

So you're suggesting the BOCC will ignore the TDC should they vote against the extention?? LOL!!!

You have a bet.

My charity will be the St. Pete chapter of the Red Cross.

You can send Aaron a copy of your donation reciept for him to publish here as proof you kept your side of the bet when you lose.

And, in the unlikely even I lose, I'll do the same.

[Howard Troxler]

ST. PETERSBURG, June 12 -- Times blogger Sharockman arrested on charges of operating a gambling establishment.

[Thomas]

The Rays should really step up and cancel the request for the bed tax and increase their contribution.

MLB does not need handouts. They are rolling in money.

"Major League Baseball will finish this year with just over $6 billion in revenue, according to Bob DuPuy, MLB's president and chief operating officer. Baseball's sales have increased 50 percent from 2004 and have doubled since 2000, CNN reported. DuPuy said that the level of growth this year had surprised even him and Commissioner Bud Selig. “We have seen a healthy increase in every one of our revenue streams," DuPuy said. "We saw about a $0.5 billion from sources that really didn't exist 10 years ago." DuPuy told CNN he expects revenue growth in the single digit percentage range in 2008 and an even bigger jump in revenue in 2009."

DEAR RAYS - PAY YOUR OWN TAB!

[Jon McPhee]

Over on another thread, Ray F says "I do expect to spend $300 mill on our team."

Have to ask if he plans to just write a check, or maybe refi his house. Or maybe he left off the pronoun “us” between “expect” and “to.” Or more honestly, he expects everyone else on the Pinellas Peninsula, not just the few who like the starshine on the Sail, to pony up not just "$300 mill," but the final total for an ‘infinitely valuable’ outdoor baseball experience, which by all past experience will be a large multiple of $300 million. All so what he refers to as the "rich bastards" can be released from the Trop lease, cut a sharper deal with a local government that appears not to know the meaning of "negotiate," and then sell the franchise in a few years anyway, so "we" can maybe still lose the "home team" that way.

Of course, when was the last time that an MLB franchise actually moved, and under what circumstances did that happen? And remind me again, which really rich, otherwise “unbranded” cities are currently bidding for the Rays owners to leave this MLB-defined "small market" and relocate there, with a freebie ball field in the bargain?
Why is there so little recognition that in San Francisco, after the voters twice said "No Way" to a subsidy play by the Giants' owner, and two nearby, also rich communities, also blew the owner off, some Left Coast businessmen figured out a way to build Giants Park without having to suck at the public teat? And that these actual risk-capitalist, non-corporate-welfare types seem to be making a pretty good buck off the SF franchise?

Wonder if the really big intellects among the Rays owners' current subsidy raiders have any such future scenario in mind, if all else fails.

A baseball team, or even a Sailaway Stadium, does not "define" or "brand" a municipality, and cities don't live or die based on the whims of MLB titans. There are 42 cities the size of or larger than St. Pete that seem to live nicely without MLB, and I doubt that even the 28 towns supporting a franchise live or die or find meaning in life only because it’s there.

[Thomas]

Jon,

I think the Rays are great for St. Pete. I don't want them to leave at all.

But, I def agree that they really have no viable options to relocate. I've said this before and no one has ever produced a location that would be able to open the vault and build the Rays a park.

Tampa is not going to do it.
Charlotte cannot do it.
New Orleans certainly is not going to use public money on a new stadium.
San Antonio is tapped out on the Spurs.
Etc, Etc, Etc.

The veiled threat of moving is nothing but a bad bluff.

[Ray F]

Jon,

You misquoted me. I said "I don't care how rich the bastards are".

The Rays can't officially entertain bids for moving the team under their agreement with the city.

As I've said before in some of my conspiracy-theory-driven posts- If we don't offer to build a new stadium, MLB will do whatever the Rays' ownership wants them to do to start entertaining offers from other cities.

Believe you me, there are cities that would build a stadium.

I'm sure people said the same thing about St Pete in the early 80's as Thomas says about Charlotte, etc.

...and Jon- Newsflash... The Expos are in DC under the alias "The Nationals" because of the promise of a fancy new ballpark and because low attendance in a lousey dome.

[TO the naysayer with bogus stats]

Thomas can take his opinions about what other Cities or regions would be willing to invest in luring an MLB franchise, add $2.89, and get a latte at Starbucks.

[Thomas]

Rick K can change his name to something else, add $2.89, and still be a fraud.

[Rick K]

In the VERY recent past, there was not a MLB team in Washington DC, as there is now.

In the past decade, 72 communities have stepped up to spend money to build or improve minor league baseball facilities.

72.

Some liars would have people believe that none of those communities would be willing to accomodate a MLB team.

That is preposterous.

In recent years several MLB teams have received serious, actual offers to move their teams. Most of these offers were ultimately rejected when the existing "home" market found a way to build successful public-private partnerships with their local MLB teams.

Here is a partial list:
Chicago White Sox
New York Mets
New York Yankees
San Francisco Giants
Baltimore Orioels
Minnesota Twins
Florida Marlins
Anaheim Angels
Los Angeles Dodgers
Montreal Expos (who are now called the Washington Nationals)

I could go on.

ADDITIONALLY, the following communities have stepped up in the last two decades and volunteered to invest HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars to bring MLB to their regions. Some of these regions include the following:

Miami, Florida
Phoenix, Arizona
Denver, Colorado
St. Petersburb, Florida

The liars who claim they are certain (Beyond doubt) that ANY region anywhere would be willing to do whatever it would take to entice an MLB team are making a claim that even kids on the short bus would have a hard time accepting.

[Thomas]

I pulled the string on my Rick K doll... It sure is a fun toy.

[Jon McPhee]

While you are fulminating, Rick, you should take the time to parse your paragraphs. Especially the multiple contradictions and stacked negatives in the last one of your 1:41 post. Did you just slip on Freudian banana, or are you really calling all the subsidy boosters here short-bus liars? And will you stop calling giant public cash subsidies funded by long-term public debt, "investments?" Just asking, of course. If I could insert a box for you to check here, I would, and after it spell out "Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire," so you could just check the box and wouldn't strain a brain artery hammering out your response.

Ray, Expos, Nationals, whatever... At the very least, that convoluted set of transactions with a made-up franchise that proved worthless where it was crammed and then bled (like the last Marlins owner did, maybe?) illustrates the Byzantine practices of MLB in screwing with community finances and politics -- the other dictionary meaning of "carpetbagger."

The cites that Don and Thomas and others have posted, pointing out the Emperor's-new-clothes aspects of MLB's cut-purse activities toward the rest of us, cover the move in some detail. For a quickie on some of the concurrent Expo-National move controversy, you might read

http://www.baseballchronology.com/Baseball/Teams/Montreal/

And for an even more pro-MLB take that still points out some of the scam at the heart of all this crepe, try

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/expos/2004-09-29-washington-move_x.htm

It does seem that the notorious District of Columbia government was at least willing to play a little hardball on its own citizens' behalf, maybe more so than our own local governments.

And how about those San Francisco Giants, and the incontrovertible facts that the public told the owners to buy their own d--m stadium if they wanted one so bad, which real businessmen (not well-timed-sellout investment bankers) actually went and did, and look! They're still there in San Francisco, having been told to go scratch by two other communities that weren't interested in a big subsidy for the crack-of-the-bat boys, and are actually making a nice buck for themselves. Not, of course, as much as the Rays owners would like to skim off the general wealth of the Peninsula by having us pump up their leverage in the Rays asset with a ton of public money.

[Don Mott]

Rickster, All you are saying is that some communities will gamble their taxpayers dollars in a bet that MIGHT have returns. In most of those communities the taxpayers had no say in how their money was GAMBLED. Would you allow me to use your money in a poker game?

[Jon McPhee]

Rick, on the double-negatives, you might recall this from one of your other posts:

"I am not, as Howard correctly guessed, not an elected official. I am merely a guy with some free time who sometimes chooses argument as a method of trying out my own thinking, to see if it holds up to attack."

Not NOT an elected official?

Love your enemy. But don't let him at your wallet.

[Rick K]

You guys are silly. Really.

Yes, so I sometimes get interrupted while writing a post and I neither go back an reread what I have typed, nor do I use a spell check or grammar check program before hitting "post."

Ewww.

You got me.

I guess that means all your lies and distortions are now valid.

Because I typed the word not in a sentence that it took me ten minutes to complete (because of a phone call received in the middle of tying), you would have everyone believe that this means it will cost tens of millions to clean up the Trop site, hundreds of manatees will die, and kids won't have textbooks in first grade!

Stop being ridiculous.

Don, I disagree with every bit of your question.

First, your implication that all these communities that invest in pro baseball do so without public support of the voters is wrong. In nearly 3/4 of the cases, when voters are asked, they vote to support these sorts of investments of tax dollars. Even when there is no direct public vote about a stadium deal, the people have elected those who make these deals.

Second, you seem to be admitting that Thomas' point that there is NOWHERE the Rays could possibly go between now and 2027 is preposterous. What happens in these debates is this: the ANTI's create a fake reason to be against these proposals, the reason is debunked, and the ANTI's move onto a new fake reason, without pausing to acknowledge what just happened.

Third, Don, you are probably one of the very few living people who think that the Trop Field redevelopment will not produce millions in direct taxes, and many millions more in multiplied downtown dollars. You are probably one of only a handful of people on earth who can intelligently read and write who clings to the impossible notion that spending $1,200,000,000 downtown will not produce some positive economic benefits.

I am part of the larger part of society who knows better, Don.

You see this as some HUGE costly gamble.

There are people who don't rent housing instead of buying, for the same reason. These people usually end up hundreds of thousands of dollars behind those who bought.

There are people who think it is better to NOT repair their cars or home appliances. There are all sorts of people who perceive things as GAMBLING.

That is why we will vote.