City staff to announce Trop site pick today

So, each morning I usually start my day here by glimpsing through the comments from the night before. I have to tell you, I don't how you guys end up talking about the things you do!

Anyway, we're supposed to hear from city staff today who they want to redevelop the Trop site, if the Trop site gets redeveloped. (The City Council would have to sign off at a meeting June 19).

On the surface, it seems like an easy call. If you believe Archstone-Madison, which is proposing to build more on the 86-acre Trop site, you pick them. If you don't, you pick Hines.... We'll see, hopefully, in a couple of hours.

UPDATE (3:12 p.m.): Still no word from the city.

Comments

[Rick K]

Aaron:

Any guesses or predictions?

[Aaron Sharockman]

I have a 50/50 chance, so why not. I'm gonna pick the underdog, Archstone-Madison.

[John]

Neither should be picked until either/both offer more than the cost to retire the debt.

If I had 70 million laying around, I'd buy it too since they're getting 85 acres for half-price. And the city still holds the liability to bring the property up to DEP standards for residential vs. brownfield/industrial.

What a deal!!

[Rick K]

Aaron, thanks for playing.

Archstone is my pick, also. Though if I was predicting, I would just flip a coin. I like the Archstone-Madison proposal, because even if they come up short of what they have planned in total, we will get a "mo betta" development than we'd get from the alternative proposal.

[Rick K]

John must not know that once the City picks a developer, they will enter into negotiations with them to address both of his issues.

As for the PURE FICTITIOUS and PATENTLY FALSE assertion that these developers have offered "half price" for the land. John simply does not understand how the value of the land is determined.

It is NOT, in ANY case, determined by how much the County Appraiser has appraised the existing project and said that should be worth on the fair market.

Market value, simply stated, is the amount actual buyers would pay for the property and NOT ONE CENT MORE.

So far, all that we know about this process informs us that both bidders are offering fair market value for this real estate.

And you can call the County Appraiser and he will tell you the same thing.

(Of course, John won't call the Property Appraiser, because he wants us to believe his UNTRUTH).

[John]

Well then, Rick, you've just called Aaron and the Times liars. They ran a story not too long ago about the projected "market value" and wondered, in print, if $200 million was too high. Even Craig Sher said that was a fair price for the city to put on it.

You're not a very good economist, are you, Rick?

[Thomas]

The City should refuse to sell it at that price.

It's not like the value is going to decrease. And there's no pressing need to complete the proposal at this time anyway.

If the process of vetting the details results in only a $65M sale price, the city should just say "no thanks".

[JL]

Since the Archstone proposal has more density, more residential, and a somewhat better committment to workforce housing(which seems especially important to some Councilmembers), I predict they will be recommended. This also presumes there have been no significant changes to either proposal since 05/01/08. This is, however, only an educated guess, and I would not be at all surprised if it went the other way.

[Rick K]

John.

There is no possible way for you to know what kind of economist I am. You have demonstrated an inability to grasp even simple facts, coupled with severely impaired mastery of reasoning.

I have made a factually correct assertion. Today's value of the Trop Field site for the intended use is, by LEGAL DEFINITION, the amount a qualified buyer is willing to pay for it.

That this actual market value differs from how much some people hypothesize the site might be worth only shows that there is often a huge difference be hypothetical guesses about value and actual market value. It doesn't change the market value.

Your argument John is akin to this. You guess I have $2000 in my pocket. The Times agrees. I actually have $10 in my pocket, and you say that the real value of my pocket cash is $2000.

It's absurd.

One is a hypothetical valuation.

The other is the ACTUAL value.

Simple.

As for the false assertion that there is no pressing matter to consider this. That person isn't paying attention. The Rays, whom the Mayor and most Council members describe as "our partners in Major League baseball," want this deal done now.

That is the pressing matter.

They have asked.

Because we are decent partners and mature adults, we are going to extend them the consideration of giving them an answer.

[John]

No Rick, it's not an "actual value"...it's a lowball offer the city should, as responsible decision for the citizens, say hell no to.

Period.

What's your house worth Rick? $150K ??

I'll offer you $25,000 cash. Guess what? Now your house is only "worth" $25,000

I just saved Rick K a bunch of money on his property taxes!!!! Wooohooo!!

[Rick K]

No, John, your offer does not constitute the value of my house, if there is another willing buyer actually willing and able to pay me more.

Fair market value is that maximum price that a willing and able buyer will pay.

Your attempt to spin these offers as "lowball" offers are pure fiction, supported by no actual FACTS.

Call the County Property Appraiser, John, ask him what the value of the Trop property would be, if sold now for this intended use. He will tell you it is NOT the $200 Million figure you keep quoting. He will tell you it is the maximum price the buyers are willing to pay for it.

You can embrace fantasy and fiction if you want John. Some may join you as you calculate the value of Unicorn tail hairs and leprechaun's hats.

The rest of us will deal in reality.

[John]

LOL Rick, I think my work is done here exposing you for the crazed economist wanabe that you are.

Let other bloggers read our exchange and they can decide for themselves who the "ad hominem spinster" is.

Too funny

[Don in St. Pete]

If I remember right another developer ( name has escaped me ) came in late in the game and offered $100 million or more for the property. Isn't that correct Aaron?

[Rick K]

Don, Aaron may answer you.

But I think my memory is similar to yours. It was reported that the man who is developing Signature Tower, which is situated across the street from Al Lang (or a new ballpark?), did give an interview in which he said he would happily give $100 Million for the Trop field site.

But that "idea," for lack of a better descriptor, is not on the table.

The City set specific criteria for bidders. They needed to design a specific proposal with mixed use, hitting several key points, by a particular deadline.

In a legal sense, proposals receieved by the City prior to the deadline which conformed with the City's proposal requirements constitute the valid legal offers which would be used by an appraiser determining the value of the Trop Field site today, for these proposals.

Real Estate Appraisal takes into account the concept of "highest and best use." Among other things, that concept excludes all possible uses for the land which would not be permitted by the government.

So a determination of value is not always figuring out what is the most possible money the property could generate in the market. For example, if the County tried to sell the Trop to a private owner who would then lease it to the Rays (similar to the proposal for various toll roads and bridges in Florida), the value of the property would be predicated upon perpetual continuation of the current use, which may be a lot less than tearing down the Trop and building something else there. But as a new development would not be legally permissable in that scenario, offers outside what is permissable are not offers at all.

[Thomas]

"As for the false assertion that there is no pressing matter to consider this. That person isn't paying attention. The Rays, whom the Mayor and most Council members describe as "our partners in Major League baseball," want this deal done now. That is the pressing matter."

I'm sorry but when the Rays say "jump" the city doesn't reply "how high?".
The Rays have a signed lease through 2027. There is NO pressing need for this proposal.

"Because we are decent partners and mature adults, we are going to extend them the consideration of giving them an answer."

And that answer will be "NO Thanks."

[Rick K]

Thomas might just be proven right, in time.

We shall see.

[John]

Wait, what's that sound?

Oh, it's just Rick K, typing another 1000 word diatribe of his message of the god-like Rays "twin redevelopment proposals"....if I hear that phrase one more time I'm going to scream.

Wait for it....wait...here it comes...

[Rick K]

John,

You will find, if you ever come over to the light, that it takes a few more words to debunk myths and lies than it takes to make false assertions.

[North East Resident]

John, my house appraised at $525k in 2007 and I have it on the market now at $445K. I have had two offers, one @ $395k and another @ $378k. Using your theory of property valuation, what is my house worth? Is it worth the appraised value or the price that actual buyers have offered?

[Thomas]

NE Resident - Are you selling it for $395K ?

[John]

NE Resident...

Looks like you didn't buy smart. You probably got suckered into the hype of the 2004-05 housing "boom"....

Sorry for your luck. Do some due-dilligence next time before being taken to the cleaners with real estate speculation?

I live in NE too...I purchased my waterfront home in 96 for $112,500, but currently it's valued for property tax purposes at $485,000 with nothing different than a new roof.

I do my research first. I just wish the Rays would. Too bad for them this will fail miserably at the polls, if it gets that far.

[Rick K]

John's 1:30 pm seems to be backing off his previous reasoning, by which your house would be worth $525,000, or more.

He switches from defending that insupportable assertion to lording his superiority over you.

Funny.

[get-smart]

If the city selects a builder, that puts an end to the competition.

The city staff is the mental midget in this deal. While they have both developers competing? they need to dictate terms and have them meet or exceed the conditions.

1- $120M for the Trop site
2- Developer does complete site clean-up including the demo of the Trop.
3- Revenue stream to the city w/ guarantees.
4- Construction time table w/ guarantees.
5- All infrastructure will be paid for by the developer.

If they can't meet the conditions then "No Deal, Howie"

I think it's fixed so I will stay with Hines.

-

[John]

You forgot one thing Get-smart...

NOT on OUR WATERFRONT! ;)

[Thomas]

I think get-smart just hit it on the head.

If you want 80+ acres of prime real estate, here are the terms.

If the terms are not accepted, we keep the Trop the way it is now, knowing that the Rays are signed through 2027.

There is NO pressing need to do this deal right now.

[Rick K]

Yes, by all means....

Let us let ANTI's who want to KILL these proposals set ridiculous terms that will result in KILLING these proposals.

Um.

That makes sense.

On Mars, maybe.

[Thomas]

Dude,

Getting enough from the site to pay off the Trop debt is not ridiculous. It's good city planning.

You're just a "stadium at any cost" loon.

[Ray F]

I don't mean to sound like an idiot, but why even pick a developer??? Why not sit on the Trop until we decide if we're gonna build a new park and then sell it at a higher price?

I think it would be stupid to assume that the Trop COULDN'T be sold at any time.

Moreover, why doesn't the city clear the Trop site itself and absorb that cost into a much higher asking price???

That's the only thing that confuses me. I think it would be more enticing and catch a far higher price if it were a wide open space just waiting for the highest bidder.

[Rick K the loon]

RIGHT.

That's me.

Oh wait. No it isn't.

I'm more aptly described as "refuse to let the organized ANTI's and self-important 'thinkers' like Thomas hijack these discussions with their ceasless attempts to distort, distract, deceive and defeat" type.

[Rick K to Ray]

Ray, these are interconnected contingencies.

The financing terms proposed by the Rays only workout if an actual developer is actually willing to spend money for the Trop Site.

It would make no sense to move forward with a hypothetical proposal to finance a new stadium, and ask the public to vote on that, without knowing if the amount set aside in the financing package as a contribution from the purchaser of the Trop Field site is realistic.

The aim is to have a contract agreement with a developer before the Council decides to put this on the ballot.

[Ray F]

If I may, Rick...

Thomas isn't against a new stadium 100%. He's against the financing.

He makes some good points as do you.

I happen to agree with him on the financing to a certain extent. I don't think the City is doing a good job negotiating at all (or they're not showing it at least).

I think the Rays need to bump up their offer to $200m in order to cover the parking estimates that they give. I'm going to vote for it regardless, but I think more voters would appreciate a bump-up by the Rays as a token of good faith.

[Ray F]

That's where I think the City should assume the risk.

It's rediculous to think that the city wouldn't recoup all and then some of the $70m that they would have to front the stadium.

Especially if they wait till after the presidential election and the economy skyrockets under a new Prez (which it will).

[Rick K to Ray]

I think the City will bump up their offer.

The offer so far already represents more in terms of contribution from the primary tenant than has been the case with any publicly-financed major league sports stadium in Florida history.

I think the Rays will offer EVEN more.

I do not know what Thomas is for, all I know is that he attempts to deceive. He is either a fool who doesn't know he is doing it, or he is a dastardly bloke who enjoys lying.

Matters not to me.

No one will be swayed by the likes of Thomas.

[North East Resident]

John, your response was not an answer to the question. I gave you a set of facts, appraised value, asking price and the offers that I received. You then assumed that I didn't due my due diligence, bought during the "Boom" and gt suckered.

I bought my house in 2002 for $310k and the appraised value at the time was $320k.

Thomas, I passed on the offers because I thought that I could get more for the house. I haven't had an offer since.

John, I'll ask you again, what is the value of my home based on your property valuation? Please respond with a price, not insults and accusations.

[John]

NE Resident.

YOU set the "value" of your home by accepting whatever offer satisfys you.

Period.

The city is entertaining offers from the Trop that don't even cover the debt owed on it.

Will you sell your house for less than the payoff?

[Rick K]

John, you are, in your 2:12 pm post, demonstrating the reason you don't understand the value of the Trop.

There is a difference (often HUGE) between the purely emotional value NE Resident places on his house and the home's actual market value.

The market value of his home is the price a willing and able buyer will actually pay for it. Not one dime more.

That is the definition of market value.

It is also the law.

Lastly, it is common sense.

[John]

Rick, hurry on back to Troxblog, they're tearing you to shreds, man.

Save your integrity!!

LMAO!!!

[Thomas]

Cha'mon! It's Rick !

[Rick K]

John,

I don't know why I am surprised. I hurried over to Trox Blog, as you urged.

What I found there does not come anywhere near the vicinity of "tearing me to shreds."

What I found there is what I find here.

Silly ANTI's trying like heck to distort, distract, deceive and defeat.

And a few nutjobs, with the occasional innocent bystander.

[Chris]

I say they sell off the trop, use the proceeds to pay off the Ray's contract let the developers go crazy and refurb the polluted parking lot--and call the Ray's bluff about leaving if they don't get their new stadium built for them.

No one seems to have a problem with knocking down the giant diaper pail that has become the icon of St Pete's Skyline, put in more retail and housing no-one can afford--at least it will look pretty. It doesn't seem many really care if the rays stick around or not--so be done with them!

[Ray F]

I think Trox has a lot of groupies.

I don't know if South Park is in any of your viewing schedules, but I can just imagine a South Park that features Trox as the leader of some band of senior citizen blogging gypsies agreeing with his every word.

Sorry Trox. Just poking fun.

I think if Trox swung the other way on the Stadium issue without any specific reason, half the people on his blog would switch their views.

[Thomas]

Rick,

You're the fraud and the hack. No one is distorting anything.

You just don't like the fact that people are educated enough to oppose this horrific financing plan.

So you erroneously slander them. It's cool - whatever you need to do bro...

[Jon McPhee]

"Northeast Resident" sounds a lot like G. Grooms in his relentless pursuit of "an answer" to an irrelevant and distracting question.

John, I have to ask whether you meant "the Rays," or "the City and County," in your 1:30 post about doing due diligence. I'm sure the Rays owners (and not the boys in the uniforms -- there's a big difference we ought to keep in mind) have done plenty of due diligence, and it looks to date like the City and County have done d__m-all little to none.

The other public response to the Rays owners' blandishments is to the other demand your drill sergeant used to refer to: "Jump!" leads to "How high, Sir?," and "S__t!" requires asking "What color and how much?"

[Chris Jenkins]

I think Hines will still get the deal. They were the ones linked on the FFWS website, and I think they had an early in on the deal behind closed doors. It will knock a hole in the mental picture I have of their backroom arrangement if they do not pick them.

[Thomas]

I'm kind of shocked that they would select either developer at this point. I mean, they're not even covering the Trop debt (unless they include even more city land as discussed at the Council mtg)

They should pull down the proposal - extended the time line and reopen the bid processes.

[Annette]

Hey, Rick K:

The sleazy folks involved with the Signature Tower don't even live here for starters. Read the PDF -- http://www.signaturestpete.com/uploads/Signature_Release.pdf.

Too, crack open the book, "Free Lunch," How the Wealthiest American Enrich Themselves at Governments Expense (and stick you with the bill).

The stadium nonsense is just that, NONSENSE. I hear the "sucking sound." Go team go!

[Chris Bryan]

Can you imagine how easy it will be to develop that property one the dome is moved down to the water? The Rays can continue paying off their debt on the stadium, the city can make a bunch of money off the development of the old land, and the lease on the dome will be fulfilled. Perfect solution - move the dome.
www.movethedome.com

[MTD]

Do you have your Move the Dome shirt yet? Support the sensible solution and leave these fanatics to their name-calling and "facts".

[Chris Bryan]

Maybe once they finish moving the dome down to the waterfront, the AAA guys can tow Al Lang field to the old trop site. Double the baseball!!!!!

Who wouldn't be happy with this arrangement?

www.movethedome.com

[Pinker Tones]

Chris, I hear that the first 5 miles of towing are free if you have a AAA membership. I think the dome is about 1.1 miles from the Al Lang site - so moving the dome would be free. That is a really smart idea. Thanks for the info - love the website.

[Katz]

Chris,

There are other cities that have two major league teams, so I think that you are on to something. Al Land wouldn't take up as much space at the old dome location - so they could still develop some of it. Great idea!!

[118holesofgolfin3hours]

Moving the dome is catching on everywhere...I heard them talking about it on the radio today. Is this really possible?

[Cristophile]

I heard that the Governor may come out in favor of moving the dome because it will cost at least 4% less than building a new stadium.

[Native]

so John has the I have my waterfront house/view so screw the rest of you attitude, nice

[Danny Boy]

John and Rick you guys are great. John, sorry, but you just got worked. I do wish, however, that you just got worked while discussing something in literal relation to the new ballpark. Instead, you guys played dictionary wars and argued over definitions of words and how they are used in business.

Although it was a fun read, and although you guys might have enjoyed it, it was completely worthless to this discussion. Aaron could care less; he's just happy his has people visiting the blog. So that leaves it up to you guys to maybe do a little self-officiating?

Both of you lose notches in your credibility belt when people read this. John, sorry, you moreso, but nonetheless both of you.

Grow up, kids.

[Grott]

I was walking by the dome the other day and there were loose cinder blocks laying about. I heard that the preparation to move the dome was already underway because of how logical the idea really is.

[These immature Move the Dome peeps]

I have been pondering for a few days who these "move the dome" kids are. A friend pointed out the obvious to me.

"Any distraction to take the public's eyes off the actual proposals."

[John]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let me get this straight.

Archstone proposes 600 hundred hotel rooms on the redeveloped Trop site. Yet they're going to demolish the Trop?

Does this make any sense to anyone?

The Trop has so much under-utilized potential as a convention center, pro-sports venue, concert venue and community events center, in addition to being the home of the Rays.

Who is going to fill these 600 hotel rooms? If the Trop is demolished, our chances of landing more sports events(can you say final-four or NBA?), large conventions, trade shows, home shows, boat shows, etc is all but effectively wiped out, FOREVER.

Last time I checked, they don't hold conventions & Final Four tournaments in an outdoor ballpark. And the way the seating is configured at the proposed new ballpark, the views for a football layout would be horrendous. Concerts at a new ballpark would violate existing noise ordinances, so they're out too. (Fresco's can't even have a live band INSIDE without the police being called).

So basicly we'll be gambling on keeping a few shoppers from heading to International Plaza in Tampa, in exchange for the GUARANTEE that the Tampa Convention Center and St. Pete Times Forum have a monopoly on all these potential future events. FOREVER! But hey, we might get ONE All-Star game for all the trouble.

Does this make sense?

With the amount of office/hi tech planned for "Eco-Verde", the only hotel that would be sustainable would be a 125 room Courtyard by Marriot or similar size hotel. Not 600 rooms!!!

Are people going to come to "Eco-Verde" to spend the night so they can shop at Nordstroms? Or will they stay on the beach or at the Vinoy? If I had the money to shop at International Plaza, I can tell you my answer. A no-brainer.

Add 1700+ apartments to the downtown grid, several thousand new office workers, 5-9k additional cars looking for a spot to park for a baseball game 1 out of every 5 days, several hundered more condo units, 600 more hotel rooms....are you kidding me? We would have to completely rebuild the entire downtown street grid to handle that kind of volume. Who's paying for that?


My parents always told me never to complain about something unless you have an idea for a solution. The solution is quite simple. Leave Al Lang alone so we can solicit another FSL/Grapefruit league and/or spring training team. Build a 3-4 star convention style hotel on the NE corner of the Trop property (with an independent parking deck to service the hotel to the the south). Replace those lost spaces with a parking deck on the property west of 16th St. And partner with the Rays to actually market the new convention hotel and the Trop to bigger and more profitible events on the 284 days a year the Rays aren't playing ball.


Let's think this out, folks. We're being rushed into a decision that will forever alter our city's character and livability, and we're being offered ZERO alternatives other than....NO.


Respectfully,

John Rose
St. Petersburg native and resident

CC:
Mayor Rick Baker
St. Petersburg City Council
Members of the BOCC
Members of the Tourist Development Council
CONA
CNCN
Barrier Islands Governmental Council
St. Pete Times Editorial Board

[North East Resident]

Jon, the reason I have asked twice for an answer was to get an answer, which John still has not given.

Rick K gave the response I would have written, so I did not respond to Johns last comment.

I will answer his question. I would not sell my house for less then I owed on it.

I would sell a piece of commercial property for less then I owed on it, if I were to get residual income on the property and eventually make a profit.

I, of course, would make the best deal possible and get the ok from my lawyer and accountant before signing a contract.

[Rick K]

You ANTI's really, really crack me up.

We are having a very fine laugh, thanks to y'all.

Priceless!

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Rick K,

Can you at least stop spouting the 1.2billion figure as if it were FACT. It is a PROJECTION. The folks making this projection Rays/developers have an obvious conflict of interest..another FACT. These projections have been used repeatedly in the past..Bay Plaza here in St. Pete..the Centro Ybor fiasco more recently in Tampa. At the time these projects were announced there were many Rick K's on the sidelines touting these PROJECTIONS as Facts. You continually site the professionalism of city staff even though the last time they PROJECTED a 2 million dollar cost of remediation which turned out to be 5.7 MILLION!!! Did these folks SUDDENLY become professional. It is widely known in city circles that Rick Mussett will do ANYTHING to prostitute our city for MLB. It is his right to be an MLB fan, but when he has been such an abject failure with OUR MONEY it is our right to wonder why he hasn't been fired and our right to wonder how you can possibly call his many blunders professional. He said there were no remediation wells monitoring the Trop site. MISTAKE!!! Now you wish to believe his lackey Mike Connors that the risk is only $100,000!!!
Smart investors examine risk versus return. The only return on this is for the New York Owners and the baseball fanatics! The average citizen sees absolutely NO return with a HUGE RISK!!! What if the redevelopment fails. What if remediation estimates are as flawed as the last time our PROFESSIONAL STAFF performed their due diligence. Rick K you might be Michael Kalt's favorite blogger but you never produce facts..only opinions which quite frankly is at the root of this entire debate. The PRO's toss out their projections and opinions with NO FACTS to back them up...the ANTI'S counter with historical FACT and the PROS resort to name calling. I have had this debate with many friends and the only intellectual response I've received that I can't actually counter is "I don't really care how much the taxpayers get soaked..I love baseball and will do ANYTHING to make sure it stays. Incuding succumbing to the despicable types like Bud Selig who is a true slimeball by anybody's definition, blackmailing us." How can you argue with that? Notice I didn't call Mr. Sternberg names because I believe he is simply a New York investor trying to maximize his profit. Nothing wrong with that...nothing wrong with us telling him to do it at somebody else's expense. Bud Selig on the other hand is a true weasel and slimeball by anybody's definition. That is not an attempt at namecalling simply identifying Selig for what he is and what he has been referred to by many of