Council votes 7-1 to move Rays' plans forward

Councilman Herb Polson and Mayor Rick Baker talk after City Council voted 7-1 to proceed with the proposed referendum for a new waterfront stadium. Polson was the only one who voted no. [Martha Rial, Times]

The City Council just voted 7-1 to move the Rays stadium plan forward. Herb Polson is the lone no. A second vote is scheduled July 17.

The council is in session. They have a few other unrelated legal items to tackle before taking up the stadium issue. We'll be back here once the talk turns to the stadium.

UPDATE: While we wait, here's a lay of the land real quick. Norm Brown, president of the local NAACP branch is here, as is chamber CEO John Long. For the Rays, Matt Silverman and Michael lead a six-to-seven person contingent. Barbara Heck is here representing CONA. Will Michaels (St. Pete Preservation) is here. As are Hal Freedman and Hamilton Hanson from POWW.

UPDATES: Here we go. Leslie Curran starts by asking Matt Silverman to postpone the stadium question. Silverman says, politely, no. City administrator Rick Mussett is now taking the podium to go through details of the process.

City internal services administrator Mike Connors just gave a report at the environmental conditions at Tropicana Field. He estimated the maximum clean-up costs would not exceed $94,000 (excluding soft costs). "If it’s that modest, it might be something we do and get done with," council member Karl Nurse, whether or not the Rays' plan moves forward.

The talk is now turning to financing. City economic development official Joe Zeoli is now going through the Hines and Archstone-Madison redevelopment proposals. Neither proposal, right now, includes a sales price that would cover all of the existing debt at Tropicana Field. The Archstone proposal is $2.3-million -to-$3.135-million short. The Hines proposal is short between $4-million-to-$5.8-million. The city is still negotiating with the devevelopers on a purchase price.

"I believe we're in striking distance of accomplishing that objective," Zeoli said about paying off the Tropicana Field debt.

* The council is now doing it's 'we're mad and frustrated by the process speech.' They're taking some of the frustration out on the Rays and some of their frustration out on city staff. Mayor Rick Baker said Herb Polson was barking. Polson responded, "If I choose to bark, you will hear it." Leslie Curran just called the Rays bull-headed.

* Danner moved approval of moving forward; Newton seconds... It's Jamie Bennett's turn to talk. I think we're going to have a 7-1 vote.

7-1 it is. Polson alone voting no.

Comments

[Will Ferrell]

Did they vote for the Cowbell?

[Mike]

Dude, the cowbell stuff was funny about a decade ago. You're lame.

[Will Ferrell]

The Cowbell never gets old. Go Cowbell!!!

[Ray F]

sorry,

Cowbell never gets old. As a matter of fact, the cowbell grows expenentially... the more you boo the cowbell, the more it comes.

[Ray F]

exponentially... sorry

[Tommy Lee]

Mike- If the cowbell stuff was cool about a decade ago, then you are slow.. Man, I've been rocking the cowbell for over 2 decades now.

[Tommy Lee]

Mike- If the cowbell stuff was cool about a decade ago, then you are slow.. Man, I've been rocking the cowbell for over 2 decades now.

[Mike]

Disagree completely. It's about as cool as yelling out "Freebird" at a rock concert these days. No, even worse. It's about as cool as being in POWW. It's about as cool as having a red sign in your yard. It's about as cool as Karl Nurse's failed referendum proposal.

Speaking of signs ...

Are those signs biodegradable or made out of recyclable materials? What a waste of our precious natural resources! An unmitigated environmental disaster, if you ask me! And such an eyesore! These bigger red signs that have been popping up are ruining my views of our quaint city and have desecrated our waterfront.

POWW appears to be little more than a group that keeps local sign-makers in business. Personally, I think they are the political arm of the sign-makers union.

Eh, screw it. Give me some cowbell. It'll drown out these whiners.

[Will Ferrell]

The Yankees hate the Cowbell. Therefore, the Cowbell is good.

[Kyle]

Rays draft Tim Beckham, SS, out of Georgia HS to the sound of cowbell echo.

[Will Ferrell]

Woo-Hoo the Cowbell is Happy!

[Rick K]

City Staff's presentation about the DEP request for deed restrictions and the city's involvement in ongoing environmental monitoring at the Trop field property has been a HOME RUN!

Each day, more and more of the "arguments" of the ANTI's get stripped away. Eventually, they will have to stand up like men and admit they simply don't want these projects, that their "against" position is merely a matter of personal choice.

All the silly scare tactics are slowly being eaten up!

[All Gator Fans]

Woo Hoo ... yelling "Freebird" is just as cool as the mullet, the Camaro and JEAN SHORTS!!!

[All Gator Fans]

And just as cool as winning national championships in basketball and football too!

[All Gator Fans]

Did I mention that we're also prone to living in the past?
Gotta go ... WalMart is having a sale on Tim Tebow underwear!

[All Gator Fans]

We also have thin skin and little peepee's

[Let us vote NO!!!!]

103 million in NEW city tax revenue, 137 million in NEW tax revenue coming from the TDC, OUR parking lots & the revenue that go with it, all the be handed to the Rays.....with ZERO guarantee in return?? LMAO good luck with that.

The Rays CONTINUE to change the starting line AND the goal posts..!!!

Ain't gonna happen, folks!!

[All Gator Fans]

Your envy reeks and is flattering, but please keep this to the new stadium.

[All Gator Fans]

Steve Spurrier was a Co ck even when he was a Crock.

[All Hurricane Fans]

LOL
gayturds and nolies

WE OWN YOU BOTH!

[ConservativeBlonde]

Why do some people dislike the chance of success? If we did not move forward, we would be moving backward. If some had their way we would put the green benches back in, light the streets with kerosene lanterns, and tear down any building above 4 stories. No thanks. I look forward to the new stadium, driving a hydro-powered car, and using electricity forever. Stop being obstructionists just for the sake of being obstructionists. Your arguments against the stadium are lousy.

[Let us vote NO!!]

LOL NOW the Rays want to force the city to LEGISLATE to PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNERS (who own lots) to TAX THEM TOOO????

THAT'S where the parking "revenue" coming from???

BAHAHAHAHAHA

[Let us vote NO!!]

Hey does Stu have his hand up Rick Mussett's back? Sure looks like a paid puppet to me!!!

[Dave in St Pete]

Polson is hammering them!!

GO POLSON!!

[Let us vote NO!!]

POLSON FOR MAYOR!!!!!

[Kyle]

Rick speaks? Shut up you closet deal making, non stance taking leader. That's it.

[Kyle]

Curren is killing them.

[Dave in St Pete]

Yeaaa Currran!

[Polson Power]

thank you ... thank you ... thank you

I stayed quiet long enough. I already had my mind set against this whole thing and just wanted to use it as a bigger spring board to Mayor ... just tying to spin this quicker than Curran!

[Thomas]

The Rays are getting worked over right now. Sounds like something I've actually said a few times.

If the Rays want to submit a complete proposal, then awesome.

But until they do. Go away.

Otherwise it reeks like a con job. And people are too smart to fall for that.

[Kyle]

Do they get a bill for the amount of taxpayers dollars that are spent researching an incomplete proposal?

[Raymond The Ray Mascot]

When I pop out of my mother(thats's born to poww fogeys), the doctor rung a COWBELL, then my father grab it & rung it & said son long live this cowbell b/c it will outlast you.

Move it along council, move it along, you know game, err, procedure.

Go Rays!

[josh]

Is the streaming connection not working for anyone else right now?

[Kyle]

Jim- Shutup please. Someone ring the cowbell.

[Dave in St Pete]

Are all Kennedys long winded gas bags?

[Jimbo]

What'd I say? I haven't said anything on this entire post!

[Kyle]

3 minutes? Is this dude a hairlip or something? Jamie? STFU Jim. STFU. STFU. STFU. STFU.
I feel like Archie Bunker with Edith talking to him.

[Jimbo]

Ahh, sorry...my bad. I feel like an idiot now. Not watching the meeting so I ...never mind....

[Rick K]

Great joke by the Council chair after Kennedy read his statement.

Hilarious.

[Mike]

Geez. Polson and Curran are as frothy and disorganized as the organization they shill for ... that's right, POWW! Reminds me of toddlers.

[Thomas]

We did get one very clear answer:

Excise Tax / 103M - PUBLIC
City Owned Parking Revenue / 35M - PUBLIC
Use Fee on Private Parking / 25M - PUBLIC
County Bed Tax / 137M - PUBLIC

Rays / 150M - PRIVATE

$300M PUBLIC
$150M PRIVATE

66.6% Public Cost for New Stadium.

End of Debate on that whole ordeal.

[Dave in St Pete]

Thomas,

Will the Rays be paying rent from day one on top of that 150 mil?

[Help me out here ...]

So $137 million comes from the extension of the bed tax that gets levied on tourists who use Pinellas County's hotels? Is that correct?

[Thomas]

Dave,

Unknown.

Speculation was that the $150M was a lump sum rent payment. But that is unconfirmed.

Several of the Council mentioned that the Lease Term Sheet needs to be completed and published.

[Ron]

This is 100% public financing, unless the Rays are willing to donate $150 million for construction anf then STILL PAY RENT!!!

[Thomas]

"Help me out"

Affirmative. $137M from the Bed Tax.

(Assuming the county approves that extension/use of the tax)

[Will Ferrell]

Vote Yes for Cowbell. A generation of Cowbell lovers will thank you.

[Let us vote NO!!]

WOOOHOOOO The Council is "very nicely" telling the Rays to POUND SAND and withdraw their request before they get BEAT DOWN at the polls!!!

NOT ON OUR WATERFRONT!!!!!

[Tommy Lee]

Go Jamie. Go Jamie. Go Jamie. Now ring your cowbell.

[Jimbo]

Yeah, Help, $137M would be paid by tourists (since people in Pinellas County usually don't stay in hotels in Pinellas County on a regular basis). While it may be public, you and me won't be paying that one.

[Kyle]

Do the Rays get a bill for wasting city resources?

[Thomas]

I appreciate Councilman Bennett directly said "I'm not afraid of how much you spend on a campaign."

I believe the Rays may be confident if they can just get it forced through the Council and onto the ballot, they can buy a "Yes" vote with a slick campaign.

[Will Ferrell]

The Cowbell has been rung, and it moves forward. All Cowbell haters take heed, the Cowbell will not be denied.

Go Cowbell!

[Help me out here ...]

I suppose I'm confused then as to why all the hullaballoo over this so-called "new" tax. It's an extension of an existing (but set to expire in 2015) tax that does not affect residents in St. Petersburg. I don't see how this impacts our wallets. To me, any tax on tourists is fine. The price to visit paradise needs to be such that it compensates for the impact they have on our community. I would hate to see this tax go away after 2015, regardless if the funds go to the Rays or not.

I guess the biggest question, then, is what to do with this tax revenue. Some want to see it for beach conservation. Others want to see it for the Rays' new stadium. But it surely doesn't seem that it is impacting the residents of St. Pete's wallets.

I find this aspect of the POWW message to thus be a bit disingenuous.

[Dave in St Pete]

Thomas,

I think that question could and should have been aswered today.

[Dr_Dug]

Anyone who votes "YES" is an ASSCLOWN. And will be VOTED OUT when election time comes around. Listen up City Council...you DON'T think independently, you represent the people. These so-called elected leaders are suppose to mirror and REPRESENT the voice of thier constituents! That means that if the majority of voters in an area say NO, then thier represenitve thats sits on the Council must say NO....it's that simple.
Dudley...we're watching your vote....and we expect a NO.
That is the Majority voice in this area....enough said....vote NO!
Or we'll vote NO to you when the election comes around and you want re-election.....!

[Dave in St Pete]

After 2015 that tax would have been extended (has any tax ever died?) but it would have and should be be redirected.

[Thomas]

Dave,

I believe that was the frustration expressed by several of the members of the Council.

[Rick K]

Well, I guess we will see how much political clout Dr_Dug has....

He now has to vote out 7 council members.

[Jimbo]

And that's the thing; it can't help us out, Help. It's only for "tourism-related expenditures". Other than commercials, websites, and sand, what better "tourism-related expenditure" is there than an All-Star Game? Baseball fans can (and do) ignore commercials and pop-up windows, but they don't ignore the All-Star Game. They bring their families, friends, and tell everyone when they get back to wherever about this great city they went to and from there, the tourism boon will be huge. Think Super Bowl-esque proportions, just reversed. This time, we get a bigger piece of the pie.

It can't fund schools, police, fire, hospitals, or anything else, except "tourism-related expenditures."

[Will Ferrell]

It's official. The Cowbell has won round one.

Go Cowbell!

[LOL @ Help me out here]

To the moron who stated above that said the tourist tax does not affect our wallets. Perhaps when the county & municipalities can no longer afford to supply city services because the Tourist Development Council loses that 137 MILLION DOLLARS to market our area to tourists who SPEND MONEY HERE, we can enact a local income tax to make up for that loss. Nah, doesn't affect our wallets.

[Rick K]

All those who have been jumping up and down about the sixty something percent who the Times poll say oppose these proposals should notice this...

In an ACTUAL vote, that ACTUALLY counted, 88% of Council voted to move forward.

as others sometimes say, "SCOREBOARD!"

[Dave in St Pete]

Though I am disappointed in the vote (and I will be contacting my council woman Curran) this is hardly a defeat for the red signs or a victory for the Rays.

[Mark]

This is great. I can't wait to have my tax money handed over to mulitmillionaires. Heck, it's hard to get by on only 20 million dollars a year. These people need help.

[Thomas]

There's nothing wrong with giving the Rays until August to provide the complete plan.

There was no verbal clutter from the Council. If the Rays don't step up with the all the details, the Council is going to kill it.

Polson is already a no.

Danner, Nurse, Curran, and Kennedy will become "no" also.

[Let us vote NO!!]

Council Chair to the Rays: "If THIS is what you want, you're going to get it".....the VOTERS will speak for you.

[Rick K]

LOL @ LOL.

Many marketing experts would agree that there is virtually no reasonable alternative the Tourist Development Council can purchase that will more effectively promote the region. In other words, investing a 1% bedtax in supporting the county's second most identifiable community asset yields a greater return, per dollar spent, than any known alternative.

[Curious...]

88%88%88%88%88%88%88%88%

88>67 or what ever it was.

hahahahahahahahahaha.
Put that on a sign POWW!

[District Resident]

I will also be contacting Leslie and letting her know I appreciated her vote today, and would encourage her to keep on voting yes.

[Nancy]

I think council members Curran, Bennet at Nurse all made it clear they were not happy with the Rays tried to shove this down their (and the citizens) throats without ANY alternative.

I think the Rays, after they get another verbal beat-down by the county, IF they ever meet with them, are going to abandon this so they can keep other options open. If it goes to a vote, they are DONE. And I think they're starting to understand that.

[Dave in St Pete]

So 601 people are too small a sample to predict the vote but 8 is enough?

[Thomas]

Rick,

You are the consumate idiot.

First, you should be posting your retraction/correction/apology for your errors regarding the sales tax receipts of Jan 2000 vs Jan 2001.

Second, the Council vote to move the process along is not a "Scoreboard" moment. The Council can move the project all the way to the ballot - where 68% of the people are going to kill the deal.

Figure it out yet buddy?

[Dave in St Pete]

So 601 people is too small a sample to predict the vote but 8 is enough?

[Mitch]

88% 88% 88% woo hoo! POWWWWW right in your angry faces! Let's build this ballpark! The naysayers have been and will continue to be trounced!!! Time to Celebrate!!!

[Dave in St Pete]

Sorry about the double post y'aal.

[Curious...]

8 people that actually matter in the process. 8 very large votes.

yup they sure do!

[Help me out here ...]

To LOL: Those leaps in financial logic appear to lack any substantial support or factual validity. Statements like that, when made by the Rays, have been referred to as a "shell game." I don't believe you. That money has already been going to the Rays for 11 years and does not appear to be hampering visitor rates. In fact, according to Pinellas Co., for most of these years (and 14 out of the past 15), annual visitors have increased, with 2006 being a record year.

But I'll let you see for yourself:

http://www.pinellascounty.org/budget/08Budget/presentations08/info_TDC_CVB.pdf

P.S. LOL? Really? Are you 12?

[Thomas]

I think the conclusion from today is that the Council is going to demand the Rays step up with a complete plan in order to get a referendum.

I think that's fair.

If the Rays were going for the "Oh, dont worry, just put it on the ballot and we'll get you the details along the way to Nov" they now know that is not going to fly.

I think that's fair.

Maybe the Rays will take this as a sign that they're going to need to significantly increase their contribution in order to get this done.

And that would be really fair.

[Rick K]

Thomas, thank you for your post directed specifically to me.

1. Being called an "idiot" by a person I believe to be an idiot does not intimidate, scare, or bother me.

2. Thomas, I will not take guidance from you. For three reasons. First, I think you are an idiot. Second, you have made more ridiculously false claims in these posts than any other person. Third, I can tell it frustrates you, and I rather like that.

3. Thomas, keep clinging to your fictitious 68%. I challenge you right now to come up with something (ANYTHING) you would be willing to bet. The bet is simple. If this comes to a vote in November, the NO votes will not be 68% or more. You choose the stakes.

BUT most of us are certain you will refuse.

[Dave in St Pete]

those 8 votes cannot authorize the building of the stadium so I would call them very small votes.

[Curious...]

better forward that along to Don Mott. He is up in arms that the FOR's can come up with any webpages supporting our thoughts. Because everything on the internet is full of truth and fact isn't it Don?

[Brad]

Dr. Dug - your logic is correct.
"These so-called elected leaders are suppose to mirror and REPRESENT the voice of thier constituents! That means that if the majority of voters in an area say NO, then thier represenitve thats sits on the Council must say NO....it's that simple." (Nice grammar and spelling by the way.)

The nice part about today's vote is that by saying yes, the leaders of this city today went one step closer to allowing the people they represent to voice their opinion directly on this issue and person by person rather than the council having to identify a summary sentiment and convey that with their own votes.

Congrats to the council - they did the right thing. They went one step closer to giving us, the public, the decision making power on this issue...and that's what anyone who cares about living in a democracy would want. If you don't like the way the government operated on this one today, then perhaps you should leave the country because a support of no on this vote means you must be anti-democracy.

Besides, there's no way you can say that the majority of the city right now wanted these council members to say no. Had the no's won, not only would it have been unfair to the people of this city, it simply would have been an incorrect representation of city citizen's feelings on this issue.

Again, thank you city council!

[Kyle]

Someone feeling guilty for what appears to be wrong?

[Curious...]

Are you serious. These 8 votes ARE the 8 votes that authorize the stadium. Without them it doesnt happen does it? These 8 are way more important than 600 citizens because there are 250,000 other one to back them up.

[Dave in St Pete]

Brad,

We don't live in a democracy, never did.

[Thomas]

Open Forum really brings the COWBELL !

[Rick K]

Brad, Dave is right. Unless of course our type of democratic republic is not a type of democracy.

Ohhhh! It is.

What Dave should have said (in a nasal, condescending tone) is that our system of government is not a PURE democracy.

But of course, a City Wide vote on this question is as close to pure democracy as one could imagine.

[Mike]

600 people in a straw poll in May is supposed to be indicative of how this will turn out in November? Ha! Ask Barack Obama and John McBush how they feel about polls 6 months before reckoning day.

If they believed in them, we'd be getting ready to watch Clinton-Romney unfold ...

[Curious...]

Ok dave. You have made yourself look like more of a moron than ever. Just because you didn't get your way and the majority of the city got there way that ultimately means it's now a socialist government? What a quack.

[Ray F]

From what I understood, Polson will not be renewing his season ticket plan???

Wengay came out and said it, though. Basicly, if this doesn't get done, we will lose this team and what we fought for for so long.

[Kyle]

Throw this woman out.

[Let us vote NO!!]

That's great Ray F, see how threatening people works out for ya!!! LOL!!

[Professor]

The Professor finds Dave's "correction" to be absurd. If one looks up the types of democracies, ours is in the list.

The Professor encourages Dave to be more reluctant to try to correct others.

[Dave in St Pete]

We do not have a democratic republic (never heard of that one) We have a representative republic.

The representatives have the right and the responsibility to spend their time and the city's' money in a responsible fashion.

While I don't really have a problem with todays vote (give the Rays more rope to hang themselves) if the 'proposal' isn't 99% done at the next meeting it should be killed.

That would actually be a favor to the Rays because if the council kills it they can bring it back up. If the voters kill it in November (and I am confident they will) then it will be dead forever.

[Professor]

This lady making "Open Forum" comments at 4:06 pm is very, very funny.

[Curious...]

Will POWW make the same promise "let us vote"? Willthey leave if we build it? That would be awesome and our mean age would drop 15 years in the process.

[Thomas]

Oh, Silly Rick.

You dont frustrate me. You amuse me greatly. And I dont really think that you would ever be accountable for your errors - it would violate your hypocrite code.

So, back to the point. Did you find the numbers for sales taxes for Jan 2000 vs Jan 2001 in Hillsborough County yet? Did you see how there was no significant year-over-year increase?

How about we bet on you admitting that you made that up sales figures and posting a correction first. Then I'll let you go double or nothing on the outcome of a potential stadium referendum.

[Raymond The Rays Mascot]

It's going to happen folks, & I'm over joyed. We're not afraid of a few lying sacks of popp, aka poww, & I eat red yard signs for lunch and very late night snacks.

Go Rays!

[Tommy Chong]

Dave's not here

[Apparently represented by Mama T]

Watching the meeting . . . this is Mama T, the "community activist"?

Really?

What . . . a . . . joke.

[Curious...]

...and thats not a democracy how???

[Kyle]

Mama T looks like a Jack A S S

[Ray F]

Let us vote,

I didn't threaten anyone. Wengay stepped up and tossed the b/s out the window by being straight forward.

Baseball's a business and bottom line is, if you don't support this business, then they'll take their business elsewhere.

If you don't like baseball's contributions to the culture and history of the USA then I'll straight call you a card-carrying commie!

[Dr_Dug]

85% percent of the city says NO! 7-1 on Council vote "Yes"!
Our Council is either out of touch or complete assclowns!..or BOTH!

[Matthew]

Mayor Baker. You said today that the Ray’s proposal is “good for the city.” It’s not good for the city; it is good for the Rays. Remember, this is how owning a major sports team goes.
1. Buy team
2. Ask for new stadium
3. Put in as little of your own money as possible
4. Soak the taxpayers for everything
5. Get new stadium
6. Wait a couple of years and sell franchise for double or triple your investment.
7. Your cost – not much. Your gain - gazillions

[skunk]

It's was a slaughter in favor of building it. Can one say landslide or resounding YES. All the council members said the Rays are a important part of this city and community. Now that why we voted them in, baby, representing the msjority.

Hip Hip Hoo Rays!

[Professor]

Mayor Baker had it right. The Rays are an important partner of the City's.

[Dave in St Pete]

Oh, please! When Brad mentioned it going to a vote and that being the way of a 'democracy' we (those with reading comprehension skills) know he meant a pure form and thinks every thing should be voted on (aka mob rule).

[Pgailey]

Always remember the St. Pete Times supported the right of New York Investment Bankers to get their issue on the ballot but dismissed the citizens of their own community for trying to get their issue on the ballot. Cancel your subscription. DO NOT ADVERTISE EVER AGAIN!!!!!

[Curious...]

Did you go door to door Dr ON DRUGS???? Pretty sure you didnt. 85% of 600 people said the didnt want it or didnt know. I would ask the hundreds of thousands of other citizens first before you go spouting BS like that. It might hurt your reputation.

[Thomas]

Dude, simmer.

7 out of 8 voted to allow the Rays until August to complete the details.

They were not voting to "build the stadium".

I am strongly against the proposal - I think that's clear.

I also agree the Rays should get until August to provide the complete details.

[Let us vote NO!!]

Actually, skunk, from what I saw, at least half think the Rays are pushing this too quickly, without offering any alternatives. They ALL sound like they're getting very impatient with the Rays, and rightfully so. Nice try at spin, though.

[Thomas]

Forget Cowbell -- we've got an Open Forum SKULLET !

Check the mullet on the bald guy!

[Curious...]

Pretty sure that majority rules is how it works there Dave. If more of the people like the idea it gets passed. Not sure what they taught you in school 50 years ago. Thats how officals get elected, and how ideas get passed. If thats not democracy im sure I can get you enough money to fly to N. Korea and you can share your ideas with that Kim guy. Maybe you can have lunch or something

[Ray F]

Awesome mullet/pony tail.

[St. Pete Rays]

Ah whats wrong @Matthew,can handle the truth from your mayor & don't put words in his mouth, but that's what losers(poww)do.

Go Rays!

[Ray F]

That's the same guido that was sitting behind the podium during the last meeting.

[Thomas]

"Baseball's a business and bottom line is, if you don't support this business"

Ray - they have a great deal at the Trop (a sweetheart lease that even includes giving the team revenue from non-MLB events held there)

I mean how much "support" are you talkign about?

How about if they want your wife or first born?

Gonna "support" that too.

[Ray F]

Well, no first born but get back to me about the wife. :-)

Seriously, though, of course they should get revenue. If you have a lease on an apartment and the complex wants to use your house for a property party, you'd want some compensation.

[Brad]

Label our system of government whatever you want. The fact is the city council took the appropriate steps today and they should be applauded.

[Dave in St Pete]

Curious,

Yes, we elect officials though not always by majority (and did ya ever hear of the electoral college?). Those officials are then empowered to make decisions on our behalf.

What were you taught yesterday in your dumbed down, pc, government school?

[gwo]

Bottom line...this will go to a vote and the Rays--along with the mayor, just might buy the election. We are seeing city govenment at its all time low. MLB has blackmailed city after city, now it is our turn. Who really cares if they move? Don't let the door hit you in the axx on the way to Orlando. First, the Rays took spring training from us without a word from our mayor, now we have to put up this this mess. Should some leadership Mayor Rick.

[TRUTH]

The deal the Rays have at the Trop, which they say they would be happy to extend to a new ballpark, is the most favorable to the landlord (the public) of EVERY such lease in Major League baseball.

Look it up.

It's also better for the public than the deals the Buccaneers have in Tampa.

It's also better for the public than the deal the Lightning got in Tampa. (Look up who built the Ice Palace and who now owns it).

In fact, the Deal the Rays have at the Trop is better for the public than the deals most MINOR LEAGUE and SPRING TRAINING teams have with their respective stadiums. I am only aware of two deals, out of the nearly 160 on this larger list, that are better for the public than the Rays current lease.

Please stop the lies!

Let the TRUTH come out

[TRUTH]

gwo's post at 4:40 pm is, as someone else might say, revealing.

Many who are opposed actually know that a majority of St. Pete voters will approve this deal. Thus, their spin is "the voters were bought off."

When the County Commission approves the deal, they will be "bought off."

When the City Council moves this to a vote, they will be "bought off."

When a majority of actual voters at an actual election approve this deal, they will be "bought off

Of course, that premise presupposes we ignore the cost of no votes.

[Rays Mike]

According to the season ticket newsletter I just got in the mail, The Rays just gave $125,000 in grants to local charities... But you don't care if they move??? (Of course, they are probably lying, right POWW-heads??)

[Kyle]

So tell us what the "deal" is.

[Brian]

This prooves that poww'r arguements are WEAK! The have no substance. They're just a bunch of angry old whiner who personally don't want the stadium so they make up stuff. They've admitted to that!

Glad to see the Council step up and shove this one down poww's throats.

Hey poww...You are crumbling. You will be dissolved soon as the city and residents aren't falling for your bitter lies.

Go Rays! Build this ballpark!

[Curious...]

... and who elects the EC......
THE PEOPLE!!! Good job Dave! Im proud of you. Democracy for everybody.

Dont get mad at the computers Dave, not there fault you had to write everything down and look everything up. Just go sit on your green bench and tell the squirrels about that 15 mile walk in the snow to school.

[Ray F]

Nobody ever mentions ALL the donations the Rays give back to the community.

How about the Rays Foundation which every signee since Carl Crawford has donated to when signing a new contract?

What about the Dream Foundation that goes to children in the BAY AREA ONLY?

How about individual players that go out into the community on their own time to visit schools, hospitals, little leagues, etc?

How about turning the area around the trop into a green zone?

...and POWW says- let them go. we don't need them??? Get real- I'll tell ya what-
If POWW agrees to donate as much as the Rays do if the Rays leave, I'll change my vote to a no for them.

[Boomer]

I read that they are going to include another option on the ballot. It is detailed at www.movethedome.com

[Tim Tebow]

I still wear jorts and and I won the Heisman!

[Trey Parker and Matt Siverman]

Curses and drat! You have obstructed us for now, but your feeble bid to save humanity will fail! Hail Xenu!!!

[Let us vote NO!!]

I just love how the few people who support this go online, see a 7-1 city council vote to give them more time (to hang themselves) can see this as a "win" for the Rays. Silverman and Kalt looked to two schoolboys getting scolded for not turning in their homework....every single council member stated, if they had to vote today, they ALL vote would be NO!!

You think that sentiment will change before August? Not likely, and it probably won't matter anyways because they're not getting past the TDC/BOCC.

So keep calling names, heralding "the end" of our city, whining about POWW, and stealing red signs, in the end you're going to have your lunch handed to you, on a permanent designation of Al Lang being added to the park system.

[Dave in St Pete]

Curious,

When is the election for the electoral college members?

[Thomas]

I swear, were you all watching the meeting?

No one voted to build a park today.

The Council told the Rays to step up and get the proposal complete and to them or else this thing is dead come Aug 7.

Ray - nice line on the "wife", you would have been an excellent addition to "Improv at the Council" today.

Skullet man in the Hawaiian shirt was the big winner today. His self deprecating humor... "and 2 of the 3 children went on to be educated and productive" - what a yuckster!

Shields tries to salvage a game vs Boston... Special 605p first pitch because Thursday is the new Friday - so hit that happy hour.

[Trey Parker and Matt Silverman]

Curses and drat! You have obstructed us for now, but your feeble bid to save humanity will fail! Hail Xenu!!!

[Rick K]

To address the silly claim that the Rays offer to pay $150,000,000 upfront, and to cover any construction cost overruns are public contributions...

Not if the lease for the stadium calls for the same rent payments the Bucs make to their landlord at Raymond James.

Using that actual market lease which exists in this region as the guide, the Rays offer for the entire lease term amounts to closer to $281,000,000 in 2007 dollars.

[Will Ferrell]

Even the people with mullets agree Cowbell is the way to go. Never doubt the Cowbell or the new stadium

[Curious...]

The EC is based on how many seats we have in Senate and HOR. So every 2 to 6 years. And the parties get to chose who will be representing them in the EC.

[Boomer]

I heard that Move The Dome Campaign is also at movethedome.com and at myspace.com/movethedome... sounds like an ideal plan to me

[Don Mott]

This vote was a no brainer and highly expected by anyone with half a brain. The city, backed by Mayor Bakers comments, does not have the necessary information to make a judgement. For everyone who seems to be gloating on the fact the measure was approved, there are four more votes to go. Two by City Council, one by BOCC and one by the public. Either one of the four could kill the deal. And the Rays have a short time to change those opinions. And Curious, show me something that proves those tourists came here because of the Rays, show me something that says a MLB team provides value to a city other than anonymous words. Then you will have a valid argument.

[Trey Parker and Matt Silverman]

Curses and drat! You have obstructed us for now, but your feeble bid to save humanity will fail! Hail Xenu!!!

[Curious...]

Roll out the red carpet Don Mott has graced us with his presence. How lucky we all are.

[Curious...]

Don ask the mayors of NY, Boston, LA, maybe even Chicago. Ask them if having a baseball team provides a value to a city.
You dont think a Mayor's words are anonymous do you?

[Dave in St Pete]

"And the parties get to chose who will be representing them in the EC."

also

"... and who elects the EC......
THE PEOPLE!!! Good job Dave! Im proud of you. Democracy for everybody."

So which is correct? You stated them both. They cannot both be correct as one says the people and the other says the party.

Gee....Proved wrong with your own words.

Boy, sure am glad I was sitting on those green benches and not making a fool of myself like some people.

[Don Mott]

Rick K @ 5:01, you really should stay out of the medicine cabinet.

[Curious...]

Are the parties made of cheese Dave? People make up parties.

[Don Mott]

"Don ask the mayors of NY, Boston, LA, maybe even Chicago. Ask them if having a baseball team provides a value to a city.
You dont think a Mayor's words are anonymous do you?" I guess that means you have no evidence HUH?

[Trey Parker and Matt Silverman]

Curses and drat! You have obstructed us for now, but your feeble bid to save humanity will fail! Hail Xenu!!!

[Curious...]

Do you have evidence that it doesn't?
Do you have any webpages up your butt that states that having MLB teams in those cities are not providing a value?

Sorry I dont have them on speed dial, next time i speak with them though I will go ahead and have them sign a waver and a notary will sign that what he said is truthful.

[Dave in St Pete]

Are the parties a majority, Curious?

That is what you have been saying.

Please stop trying to spin your way out. You're just making yourself look more and more silly.

Maybe you should pay attention to that old saying about keeping quite and being thought a fool instead of talking and removing all doubt.

[Rick K]

I just now discovered this newer nifty two page summary of the Ray's financing proposal...

http://www.majorleaguedowntown.com/userfiles/Media/Finance_TwoSided_05.pdf

As for Don Mott's predictably preposterous post.

Don, saying that the Rays have no impact on tourism is like saying that the beaches or the weather have no impact on tourism.

You have previously refused to do the math yourself. Add up just the revenue to this city from teams who visit the Rays (81 games times about 40 people, on average, each staying in a single hotel room) 50 plus charger flights into and out of the city. Bus charters to get the teams from the airport to the Vinoy and back to the Airport, then to the Trop and back.

Add up all the limos and cabs the teams take while they are in town. Be conservative, assume that only 5 players on each visiting team use limousine service sedans to pick up their girlfriends/wives/parents at the airport and bring them downtown, then back. A typical cost for such a trip is around $75 each way. Assume NO players actually rent Limos while in town (at about $500 on average per trip).

Add up the amount all these people spend on meals in St. Pete (since they aren't driving to Bradenton for breakfast, lunch or late night post game meals).

Major league players and coaches get more than $70 a day on the road to cover meals and tips related to traveling. Assume they only spend $50 of it each day they are here.

Add all THAT up, and tell me what figure you come up with?

You've previously asserted that there is NO benefit. Add up all that on your own and tell me what figure you come up with Don.

Then we'll go from there.

[Don Mott]

Yeah Curious I have already presented it, look through the archives.

[Alex]

A yes vote today is appropriate. This deserves to be on the ballot, where it will be trounced 80% against. That should send a fine message.

[Curious...]

SO you have documents saying that a MLB team in NY does not add value to the city. So if the Yankees just got up and moved to Orlando the Bronx's value wouldn't decline and Orlando's wouldn't increase?

[Dave in St Pete]

Rick K

That's not a summary, it is at best advertisement and if you want to be honest it's propaganda.

[Rick K to Don Mott about medicine]

Addressing Don Mott's unfunny attempt to reply to an important and valid point.

There is NO BASIS for claiming that the Rays offer to voluntarily contribute $150,000,000 up front, plus be responsible for construction cost over-runs, plus continue paying "rent" to the City along roughly the same terms they now pay equates to these contributions being PUBLIC money.

Those monies come from the Ray's checking account. These monies only come from the Ray's checking account because the Rays' volunteered to pay them.

This is VERY, VERY different from the amount the Bucs and Lightning pay the Tampa Sports Authority.

The most common market arrangement for deals of this type is for the primary tenant to pay NO RENT.

NONE.

The Rays offer is considerably better than the most common or "standard" public stadium deal with pro sports teams.

[Rick K]

Dave, if you think that factually correct summary is propaganda, it is no wonder you are confused.

Please refrain from posting until you have finished your basic English vocab lessons.

(i.e, asserting that a direct vote by the people on this issue is not a democracy and asserting that a summary of facts about the Rays proposal is not a summary of facts about the proposal)

Please.

[Trey Parker and Matt Silverman]

Curses and drat! You have obstructed us for now, but your feeble bid to save humanity will fail! Hail Xenu!!!

[Dave in St Pete]

Rick K,

Please show me where I said that a direct vote on the stadium was not democracy.

I stated that we do not live in the type of democracy as inferred by Brad.

Spin, spin, spin.

[Craig Kidwell]

I heard people at the Sox game chanting "Move The Dome" and "Tow The Trop" this past weekend. Anyone know what this is about?

[Rick K]

Dave, the way you NOW describe what you said, while reflecting what you probably WISH you had said, is not an accurate portrayal of what you actually said.

At 4:03 pm today, in this very thread (scroll up, go ahead, I will wait. Actually, let me just cut and paste your ENTIRE post)

"Brad,

We don't live in a democracy, never did."

---------

I am so very sorry poor boy, but you do make me laugh.

[Trey Parker and Matt Silverman]

Hail Xenu. You will believe come November.

[Thomas]

Rick:

"asserting that a summary of facts about the Rays proposal is not a summary of facts about the proposal"

Um, yeah - that proposal still says "Public Cost" $175M

But just this afternoon, at the City Council Meeting, they reviewed the finance plan:

Excise Tax / $103M - PUBLIC
City Owned Parking Revenue / $35M - PUBLIC
Use Fee on Private Parking / $25M - PUBLIC
County Bed Tax / $137M - PUBLIC

Total = $300M PUBLIC

Hey Look! It's yet another chance for you to post a retraction/correction/apology buddy!

[Dave in St Pete]

Rick,

Hmmm what you pasted looks suspiciously similar to what I posted in rebuttal to you.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Also the 'facts' in the summary you linked to say 55mil from parking. Today they said 22 (25?) mil from parking. Which 'fact' is it.

[joe]

can we impeach city council?

[Rick K following up to Dave (so sorry to defeat you)]

Dave NOW claims that his remark to Brad was NOT about a direct vote on these issues.

But the facts say differently.

Brad's post (immediately above Dave's, at 4:01 pm) said,

"These so-called elected leaders are suppose to mirror and REPRESENT the voice of thier constituents!"

(Which means Brad clearly recognizes most governmental matters are decided by our elected Representatives). Brad went on to say,

"The nice part about today's vote is that by saying yes, the leaders of this city today went one step closer to allowing the people they represent to voice their opinion DIRECTLY on this issue and person by person rather than the council having to identify a summary sentiment and convey that with their own votes."

Which makes it very obvious that Brad is now talking about a vote in November on this issue. Brad next said,

"Congrats to the council - they did the right thing. They went one step closer to giving us, the public, the decision making power on this issue...and that's what anyone who cares about living in a democracy would want. If you don't like the way the government operated on this one today, then perhaps you should leave the country because a support of no on this vote means you must be anti-democracy."

Which seems to make it very, very clear that Brad recognizes, as most intelligent adults do, that there is no more pure form of democracy than a direct vote by the people. Brad's argument is that a move by representatives or citizens to thwart a plan to let everyone vote would be an impediment to that purest possible form of democracy.

To that post, Dave said, at 4:03 pm

"Brad,

We don't live in a democracy, never did."

-----

Dave, you are trying to lie. Not spin. Lie.

Just forget your lie and move on to the NEXT diversionary tactic, it's what you ANTI's do best.

[SpitBaby]

Another way to kill the new park is to boycott the Rays games. They'll just pack up and leave if everyone stops going.....oohh never mind, that's already the case. Maybe we can get the last few die hards to stop going.

[Trey Parker and Matt Silverman]

Xenu will handle the believers and those with doubt. All Hail Xenu!!!

[Dave in St Pete]

Rick,

First, I caution you. Do not impugn my honor.

Second, what you surmise ('it seems'...) is not always correct. In other words what you infer is not what I implied.

[MoveTheDome]

All this wasted energy posting useless opinions on a blog when a real solution lies right beneath our noses.

wwww.movethedome.com

[Rick K]

Dave, you are a chicken. You have no honor. I impugn it out in the open.

You are trying to lie to us.

Simple.

I have no idea WHY. But you are.

Brad made it CRYSTAL clear in his post that he never thought we live in a pure democracy. He made it CRYSTAL clear that he knows we live in a representative democracy wherein elected representatives make most public policy decisions.

He also made it CRYSTAL clear in his post that he applauds the rare chance, in this case, to have a direct vote on these matters.

No one reads his post and thinks he didn't understand our form of government.

Your arrogant attempt to prove yourself superior to Brad has failed.

Now, instead of apologizing and moving on, you kick up dirt.

Be a man.

Geesh!

[Rays do provide value]

Don Mott comment "show me something that says a MLB team provides value to a city other than anonymous words. Then you will have a valid argument."

The Rays employ hundreds of people. They spend money and will leave with the team.

There staff rents condos all through downtown. I have a friend renting a town home in Charles court to a player.

There statistician lives a couple blocks away from me and moved his family here to work for the Rays. The same is true for many of the office staff.

The Rays run numerous camps for kids.

They routinely make appearances at charity events.

When people by Rays gear which is up significantly they buy it from bay area stores.

Before the games many fans eat out in downtown, you can see them/us wearing Jerseys and hats.

After the game, at least on weekends many stay downtown to drink and eat as well. My friends at the independent can attest to that.

I have a friend that owns a frame store and the Rays are a large client always having things framed for different events.

These are just the ones I have personal contact with. If multiple people I know have experienced direct economic effects don't you think there might be a few more. Any company with their staff is going to have a large economic benefit to the community otherwise the city wouldn't be willing to give incentives like the 20 million given to bring SRI to town. That doesn't even touch the effect of bring fans and TV exposure to St. Pete. Do you now how much tourist cities pay for commercials selling there community. You get it free every time the rays are on TV someone realizes St. Pete is on the map. Sorry but your argument is baseless.

[vindiesel]

UNBELIEVABLE...
CITY COUNCIL HAS MADE AN EGREGIOUS ERROR ASSUMING THE TAXPAYERS WANT TO SUBSIDIZE A SPORTS TEAM. WHAT CAN THE DEVIL RAYS DO FOR ME? THE ANSWER, IS NOTHING!

[Mike]

Which last few diehards, SpitBaby? The 60,000 who showed up in an 18 hour time span over the past weekend? Those last few? The nearly 19,000 who show up on average, up 10% from last year? Those couple of folks? Clarify, please.

[Dave in St Pete]

Hey Rick,

Stuff it where the sun doesn't shine!

Is that man enough for ya, boyo?

[Don't bother]

Don't bother trying to prove anything to Don Mott. He is inconvincable.

[Rick K]

Dave, are you serious (our 6:05)

Offering some weak words that a lame eleven year old might say and calling that "being a man."

Oh, cool. I see you stuck in your thumb and pulled out a plum!

Why don't you just say, "My post to Brad was wrong," and move on.

[Trey Parker and Matt Silverman]

Come to Xenu. Xenu shall protect you. Xenu will be with you. Xenu will not be thwarted in his efforts. Xenu will not post blank threats.
Curses and drat! You have obstructed us for now, but your feeble bid to save humanity will fail! Hail Xenu!!!

[Dave in St Pete]

I explained my stance very clearly. That you refused or were unable to understand it is your problem

Much like your problem with the facts on the summary you linked to.

[Thomas]

Rick K: "Why don't you just say, "My post to Brad was wrong," and move on."

Does that mean that you are going to retract/correct/apologize for your erroneous statements about the accuracy of the finance information on that link he provided.

[2 cents ...]

Rick K ... stay above the fray. You represent those who support the stadium. Keep the frothing at the mouth for the POWW wackos and retain some dignity. We gain nothing by sinking to the level of POWW and its out-of-touch, desperate supporters. I mean, if you want to. We do live in a free democ ... er, nevermind.

[Trey Parker and Matt Silverman]

Xenu will bring you clarity.

[Thomas]

Rick K: "you think that factually correct summary is propaganda"

But it's not factually correct.

Why don't you just post that you were wrong in asserting that it was?

Will you do that big Rick?

We're waiting --

[Trey Parker and Matt Silverman]

Xenu will make you always correct. Xenu makes you never be wrong. Viva Xenu!!!!

[Trey Parker and Matt Silverman]

This explains the whole stadium proposal-
www.scientomogy.com/xenu.php

[Thomas]

I guess it's just another typical Rick day.

Talk a bunch of inaccurate nonsense, then when it's time to be accountable for it ... disappear.

Poof goes the Rick.

Also, that savant Ramirez just hit a 3 run bomb.

[I will see your two cents, and raise you two cents]

To Rick K. You are the best poster on these blogs. Please do not stop. Please keep ignoring Thomas, too. We think he is an idiot. Dave is not a man. Ye peretius moronum!

[I'm wondering.....]

Is anyone on here not a "for" or an "anti"? I, like a great number of people I talk to, am on the fence right now.. I think everything does seem a little rushed by the rays.. but I also really think that the new stadium would be great for downtown, and don't buy that no extra money would be coming in. I was surprised by the amount of times they used the word negotiate, after reading countless times by some of the anti's that there is no negotation to this at all. What I took from the meeting was that the counsel members really want to, at the end of the day, make things work for the new stadium.. I think they are justifiably apprehensive and want the rays to make some concessions.. Hopefully they will, since, regardless of the outcome, I couldn't imagine not having baseball here. O.. and to Don Mott.. just because you pull a study doesn't mean that the study applies to this situation.. like someone said they other day.. show me the study that adds 86 acres of taxable land and then we can compare the two situations, until then don't say that pittsburgh added to their sales tax and that hasn't worked out so good so obviously baseball stadiums are the worst thing that could ever happen to a city outside of godzilla. And Rick k, the don mott of the "for's", I'd be curious for you to answer Thomas question about the super bowl numbers.

[Rick K]

To I'm wondering,

I decided not to reply to Thomas. I have judged him to be an incurable idiot unworthy of my attention.

But I didn't know that he apologized or admitted that his "Super Bowl" calculations were hopelessly wrong.

Where was that?

[Thomas]

Mr. Wondering,

Rick is never going to be accountable or answer questions. It's not what he does.

But, if you are actually interested, here's how it went down:

According to sales tax receipts, Hillsborough County reported January 2001 sales of about $1.44 billion. In January 2000 they reported roughly $1.4 billion.

There was growth but not more than is seen in any year-to-year comparison. In fact, it was less than the average growth by year.

Now, people certainly did come to Hillsborough specifically to attend the Super Bowl in 2001. However, in the end, all of their spending yielded no net increase in sales tax receipts from the previous January when there was no Super Bowl in Hillsborough.

John F. Sugg, Investigative Reporters and Editors and the Society of Professional Journalists award winner, has written some excellent pieces on this topic while he was doing research prior to Atlanta hosting a Super Bowl.

[Rick K]

(My last post for today)

Don Mott says, "show me something that says a MLB team provides value to a city other than anonymous words. Then you will have a valid argument"

http://blogs.tampabay.com/ballpark/files/RaysReport06022008.pdf

Check out the last four or five pages of this Report....

There it is Don, "something not anonymous"

(Each claim with regard to the AllStar game impact, by the way, comes from separate studies peformed by professional economists each year, after the All Star game, the Rays merely provide a summary of the findings of these studies)

Who wants to bet that Don Mott will post more links to the same studies quoting the same people who say that no economists think public investment in sports stadiums pays off?

[Thomas]

See what I mean - Since Rick just exposed as a fraud by the facts, now he's going to "ignore" me.

Interesting that he wanted a retraction/correction from someone else when he himself refuses to provide one when there is no doubt that he is wrong.

Rick is the utlimate ANTI:
Anti-credibility
Anti-accountability
Anti-accuracy
Anti-integrity

[Tony]

i truly wish the 'no new stadium' folks would take their fingers out of the ears and eyes. they spread blatant lies and distortions. please get your facts straight before you start your 'arguments'.

and you can't judge a stadium's benefit based on a single event. go to denver, go to baltimore, heck even go to st louis and ask them how their new stadium has affected their tourism. hmmm, a morning boat rental, afternoon at a museum, early dinner, and a evening rays games sounds good enough to me to draw folks from sarasota, ft myers, and orlando.

[Thomas]

Hey Tony,

I'll take my fingers out of my ears and eyes if you take your fingers out of your ...

[Thomas]

I'm just playing around dude.

Anyway, the problem is the public pays $300M (plus bond interest). The team cannot draw enough new money in to offset that amount. Especially when the product on the field has been so bad.

The Rays need to increase their contribution and make a fair deal.

Oh Tricky Ricky, You demand peer reviewed articles from me and then don't acknowledge them when they are posted. You deny dozens of reports from PhD's, college professors and established reputable economists. Then you present something drummed up by the Rays PR staff with nothing to v