Ed Board: Look beyond fuzzy plans for Trop site

The business partnership that St. Petersburg Mayor Rick Baker has recommended negotiating with to develop the Tropicana Field site may offer an attractive blend of retail and residential expertise. But City Council members, who are being asked today to authorize negotiations with Archstone-Madison, should be wary of basing their decision on fuzzy artist renderings and big numbers. By the developer's own admission, those are subject to change.

The problem is that Baker's staff chose Archstone Smith and Madison Marquette primarily because the companies propose to build 5.4-million square feet of retail, residential and office buildings. As city administrator Rick Mussett writes: "The Archstone-Madison proposal is a more intensive urban vision for the project that takes better advantage of the development opportunities."

Put the emphasis on vision. The rub is that no one can readily predict the economic environment that will drive a project expected to take at least a decade, and Archstone senior vice president Kenneth Miller was candid enough on Wednesday to acknowledge the plan could ultimately shrink in size.

"You at least want to start with shooting for the stars," he said.

Continue reading here.

Comments

[Sam]

This entire charade stinks like a flaming bag of dog poopy. And we all know what you do with a flaming bag of dog poop.

Final build-out will look more like this:

1700 low-rent apartments, filled with low rent people.

100,000 sq ft call center for those apt dwellers to work in.

A 24-hour Super Walmart

2 gas stations

A Bass Pro Shop (LMAO!)

A 90 room Super 8 motel

Chik-Fil-A

TGI Fridays

Instead of Eco-Verde, we can just call it downtown Oldsmar.

[since1962]

The quickly shown parking, and other videos/renderings are INTENDED to DISTRACT ATTENTION FROM THE COMPLEX DETAILS contained within the entire proposal AND squelch debate NOT inform.

OHH PURTY!
MAY I PLEASE HAVE MORE?

I want SOME Tropicana redevelopment!
Answers and independent analysis without RAYS RUSH please.

[Clear Direction]

Aaron,

I realize that formal negotiations with Archstone-Madison have not begun in earnest, however, this morning's editorial did nothing to alay any concerns that all three phases of the Tropicana redevelopment will be gauranteed.

If the developer cannot or will not gaurantee a final purchase price for all of the 86 acre site, the citizens could be left with a 70 million bond issue to pay and no repayment from Archstone-Madison.

Also, if the market dictates that the second and third phases of the Trop redevelopment should be scaled back, then the projected revenues will also not live up to projections and once again the citizens could be on the hook to make up the shortfall.

I beleive that any agreement between the City and Archstone-Madison needs to include a fee simple purchase for the ENTIRE 86 acre site and minimum requirements outlining what MUST be built so that the devlopment WILL generate enough taxes to cover the city's share of the proposed stadium prior the the end of the Ray's lease term.

If these conditions cannot be met I would hope our city council members would not vote to place these 2 items on the November ballot.

[The KOOK antidote]

The kooks who oppose these proposals at every turn are a rather curious lot.

In examining the details of the Archstone proposal which have been shared with the public so far, I see a terrific foundation for working out an agreeable development contract in the coming weeks.

In examining the hysteria of those who post anything and everything against these proposals, I see an increasing desperation.

Everyone who is "afraid" should just chill. In another two months, we will have enough details to make an informed decision.

[Get Smarter]

Especially Sam, chill, Thanks for characterizing St. Pete as the Red neck capital of the world.

[Colorado Snowbird]

Someone has struck a chord that resonates with me. If those who are so ardently opposed to these proposals are so confident they will win in November, or before, why on earth must they expend so much effort now to derail the vote they are confident they will win by huge margins? Why must they post garbage and lies? If they believe their is no way the voters will approve this, why all the fuss?

[Demetrios]

Because, Colorado Snowbird, they hate St Petersburg. They want to see the green benches come back.

The ANTI's hate St. Petersburg and want the team to move to Colorado instead of having these grand paired redevelopment proposals that will turn this city into the Boston of the south!!

Go Rays!!

[Colorado Snowbird]

I don't think so Demetrios. I think the ANTI's, as you call them, are mostly a bunch of sad, confused people. I am sure there are some normal, decent individuals who don't like these proposals. But the best we can tell, those people aren't taking the time to post in these forums.

[Paul]

Boston of the south? What? Hey, I'm sure Boston is great. St Pete is great, today, now, right now, and this is where I live, along with 250,000 other people who also think so. If you like beantown so much, move there.

I am not up for destroying not only the waterfront, but in my opinion, selling the soul of our City to these carpetbaggers. Our City is not for sale. This bloated stadium proposal will swamp downtown in every aspect and the Rays will 'own' the identity and reshape our very beautiful downtown in a negative way.

Us simple, local yocals who live here kinda like it the way things have been going the past 15 years... and we have no aspirations of impressing others as to our cultural diversity or cool vibe we have going on. St Pete is hot! We have more arts, music, participant sports, colleges, vibe and happenings than most cities could ever expect.

Colorado Snowbird, I have read alot of your posts over the months... and you seem like an ok guy, but dude, you don't live here year round. Why not? You so want to change the vibe of our City, yet you're not a day to day participant. I understand the rights of property owners... I got a few places myself. Move here, roll up your sleeves, like alot of us have over the years, and then lets hear it. As far as being 'sad and confused', I call you on that, I'm the happiest dang person you will ever meet, and I'm pretty darn sure of what I want out of life as well. Living in a corporate owned shadow of a city is not one of them. How do you survive in Colorado? That seems like quite the open minded state to me. You have no control over your town up there?

[Reply to Paul from Snowbird]

* Paul, your claim that everyone in the City of St Pete wants no changes to the City is unserious.
* Telling people to move before there has been a vote is immature. City residents are permitted to vote. People are free to move if they don't like the outcome of the vote. But your side does not own the City.
* What you call destroying our downtown waterfront, many of us call improving it. The difference in views is why we should vote.
* You rely upon an unfortunate overly charged term when you whip out "carpet bagger".
* Many of us see the Rays ownership as genuinely trying to find a solution to their perceived business problems that works best for the team and best for the city. The difference in views is why we should vote.
* No one is suggesting selling the City. Your insistence on describing these proposals in extremists terms does not help your cause.
* Most of us do not believe that a 15 acre ballpark will swamp downtown. Most of us do not believe this ballpark will be a negative for downtown.
* Many of us who moved to St Pete because of the new vibe over the last 15 years believe that these proposals will keep that going and draw more people like us to the City.
* I am not a dude. Although I do own a ranch and ride nearly everyday when I am there.
* Paul, your opinion that everyone who supports these proposals is an outsider trying to force unwanted change upon you is precisely why we should vote. You incorrectly assume my history and where my heart is.
* Your opinion that people who think like you have more rights to have a say in determining the city's future is pure hogwash.

[Paul]

ahh, you have to be kidding me. Rick, Rick?? you are also Colorado Snowbird? That is one person I actually had some long term respect for... alas, bye bye for that.

Man, go get another passion, you're beyond understandable.

At least take a writing class and learn another style. Dude, yeah dude, that's the way I talk.. not in the fake cowboy way you imply, I have 1 identity on here. Been here since November 2007.

Rick, you are an interesting person. And I don't mean that as a compliment. man, you got to get yourself another hobby or you're going to pop.

You know... I'm almost thinking this.. and don't call me on this its just a thought. What if St Pete Times has a person on here to kick up the dust, aka a persona... that would increase activity. I mean its such a dumb idea, it just may be true. It would be brilliance, almost too much to credit to a newspaper, but it just may be so.

[Colorado Snowbird]

Paul? Hello. I am not Rick. Stop reacting to fiction. Respond to reality. There are MANY of us who do not think like you. Not just one of us.

[Paul]

Ok Colorado, we don't recognize your writing style, we are ignorant. So then, answer my questions I posed to you.

[Jon McPhee]

I think Rick-is-Ray-is-Demetrios-is Xenu or whoeveritis, is somebody Aaron hired to drive people off this blog because it has become so annoyingly, cloyingly tiresome and so bereft of any actual content. Other than serial proofs that humans can't think their way out of the kinds of mental corners that compel them to make "enemies" and propaganda-propogated evil straw men out of anyone who doesn't agree with them.

What's this shat about "KOOKs" who "hate St. Petersburg" if they don't want to have a large green weenie shoved up their behinds? C'mon, girlies, you should be able to do better than that -- your predecessors like Joe McCarthy at least could come up with "Communists under the bed and in the Water Department" and "Better Dead Than Red" and "Rays Petersburg -- Love It Or Leave It."

Were you people on the Debating Team and the last to be picked for kickball? Is that why you do this inane dance?

Oops-- gotta sign off to give you folks another chance for some SmugTime.

Smurfs.

[Rick K]

what?

Have you folks lost it.

Am I everywhere now?

[Rick K to the Editorial Board]

I keep coming back to this part of the editorial....

"The rub is that no one can readily predict the economic environment that will drive a project expected to take at least a decade, and Archstone senior vice president Kenneth Miller was candid enough on Wednesday to acknowledge the plan could ultimately shrink in size."

While it is absolutely true that no one can predict with precise accuracy what will happen, that isn't the yardstick by which we should measure this.

If lack of precision always meant we would pass, nothing would ever get built, because almost nothing is that precise.

What is on the table is a ten year buildout of 86 acres, which will probably totally a Billion dollars or more in investment.

While it certainally makes sense to pursue more complete answers and various gaurantees, overplaying this notion of uncertainty only plays into the hands of the organized ANTI movement, whose objective is to NOT have a vote this November.

If the City can get the purchase price up a few million, to cover the amount of the remaining Trop field debt; and if the City can get the developer to commit to a bonded gaurantee of phase I; and if the City can get the developer to agree to pay the entire land purchase price, regardless; and if the City can get the developer to agree to demolish the Trop

Then I think we have a workable deal and ought to move towards a vote on the Stadium question.

[Papa Smurf and Smurfette]

Yes?