First reading of referendum ordinance moved back one week

The city will push back the first reading of the stadium referendum ordinance from July 17 to July 24, senior city development administrator Rick Mussett told Ballpark Frankness this afternoon.

The change does not affect the second reading, which would still happen Aug. 7, or the prospects of a November citywide vote, Mussett said.

It was made so that the Pinellas County Commission can consider its part of the financing package -- $100-million from a tourism tax --before City Council members would have to take a vote on holding a citywide referendum. The county's vote on the financing plan is scheduled July 22.

The updated schedule:

June 19 --- City Council selects a developer for the Tropicana Field site

July 9 --- Pinellas Tourist Development Council makes a recommendation on the use of $100-million in tourism tax funds

July 22 --- County Commission vote tourism tax funds

July 24 --- City Council first reading on citywide referendum ordinance

Aug. 7 --- City Council second reading on citywide referendum ordinance

Nov. 4 --- Citywide referendum

Comments

[get-smart]

Here is something interesting from NYC:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2008/06/yankees_to_city.php

[Thomas]

May I amend this post to:

Nov. 4 --- Citywide referendum*

* If Necessary

[Ray F]

Aaron,

Can the City be sued if they announce a developer and the stadium plan does not go through?

Obviously, if the stadium gets rejected by council or the voters, the Trop site would not be available and I'm sure the developer wouldn't be too happy.

[Aaron Sharockman]

Ray,
Anyone can sue. But the city has been very clear (and stated so in the RFP) that the development is contingent on a referendum of citywide voters. And that a development can only occur if a plan for a new ballpark is approved. I think the Trop developer would have a pretty weak case.

Thomas,
The whole schedule is "if necessary." I wasn't trying to imply their will be referendum. Hope you understand.

[Lakeland Guy]

Hi Get-Smart,

Didn't the Rays say they would pay for any overruns in the cost of the new ball park?

Also, the Yankees are paying for the majority of their stadium. Those bonds are just low interest loans that the team will be making payments on. They are basically asking for more financing, not a handout.

[get-smart]

Lakeland Guy -

It is ok for the Yankee's to take and use tax money from hard working citizens.

Why don't they get their own loan and pay taxes like the rest of us Americans.

These ML team owners are nothing more than treasonous criminals. For them to hold the cities hostage is criminal. They all should be thrown in jail.

And I know - You have a defense for these criminals! There is no defense. All you can do is create excuses. All you can do is aid and abet their crime!

Have a nice day ☻

[Thomas]

Aaron,

I was just joking - perhaps taunting the "stadium at any cost" crowd a bit.

I think your blog is pretty much the coolest thing ever. It's totally unbiased and offers a forum for everyone.

Much respect
T

[get-smart]

Lakeland Guy:

did I mention that they are all carpet-baggers too?

oops, gotta go ... there are some angry Yoohooru's outside with pitchforks and rope ....

[Lakeland Guy]

Get-Smart,

I'm not defending anyone, you're putting words in my mouth. I asked a question regarding the Rays' intent to pay cost overruns on stadium construction, you chose not to answer my question.

I then stated a fact that the Yankees are asking for a larger loan that they intent to payback, not a hand out. You assume that they are criminals for using the same public facility that has been open for nearly 100 years and wanting a new one. The stadium is mutually beneficial for both New York City and New York State.

Your 'Carpetbagger' post is extremely racist and your IP should be banned from the blog. Carpetbaggers were predominantly known to bring freed slaves from the North to the South after the Civil War. Your pitchfork and rope comment along with your 'Yoohooru' play suggest the lynching of African Americans.

The comment policy states inappropriate comments include content that are racially, ethnically or religiously offensive. You managed to use a blog about a stadium effort to show that ignorance is still alive and well. Congratulations.

Have a nice day.

[Mal]

Aaron,
If the Ray's find a loophole in the a new stadium lease and leave. Would they get a pro rated portion of the prepaid rent back? Say they leave after 10 years would they get $100 million back?

[get-smart]

Lakeland Guy -

I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I misinterpreted your statement. Sorry. The second post is not mine.

1 - What is and what is not an "overrun" will be defined in the contract. Rest assured, "overruns" will happen. Overruns that you think the Rays will be picking-up will be pushed to the cities side of the ledger. The Rays will say, "Read the contract!"

The Rays will use very slick lawyering to their advantage. Our Soupy Sales city attorney with the hair hat, is no match for their seasoned stadium lawyer. There will be gaping loop holes in the contract to our detriment. In other words, the taxpayer is going to be paying 100%+ of this deal.

2 - If the Yankees are going to pay for the stadium let them get their own money and pay taxes like everybody else. They want the city to finance the additional $350M. When the Yankees decide to default on the payment, it is the city that is on the hook.

One last thing: THE WATERFRONT IS OFF LIMITS!

Cheers!
-

[John]

Mal

Not to answer for Aaron, but that's just another of dozens of details the Rays have not presented yet that the voters & local governments need to make an informed decision.

Lease terms
Operating costs (who pays)
Maintenence costs (who pays)
Insurance (who pays)
Liability (who pays)
Parking (really?)
Noise (Bayfront Tower residents do have rights).
Working with the Grand Prix organizers
Environmental permits (DEP)
State approval of dredge & fill
Legislating a downtown "parking zone" (which is illegal unless they change the city charter/constitution)
Forcing non-rays fans to pay a surcharge to park downtown. (suprise!)
Al Lang demolition costs (who pays)

Etc...Etc...Etc...Etc..Etc...Etc...

They have until July 22nd (Aug 7th, at the latest) to answer every single one of these questions.

They've had 7 months, but have done nothing but shuffle big numbers and provide not-so-fancy power point presentations. They don't even have a scale model for the public to view!!!

Piss-poor deal, all the way around.

[Lakeland Guy]

Ugh. It's a shame when cowards have to use the identities of others on a blog. They can easily track that IP and should ban it.

I don't care where the stadium goes or if they even get a new one, I just don't want them to leave. If St Pete does use Soupy attorneys for a $450 Million deal then I would recommend you move to beautiful Lakeland, perhaps somewhere in the Historic District.

Stadium location aside do you feel that St Pete can't put together a counter offer of some type to make this more beneficial to the city? No offense, but a lot of what I read on here (and this is from both sides) do not really factor in credible facts and are mostly emotion based.

As for the Yankees, in NYC that stadium will more than pay for itself overtime anyways. The Yankees have the largest market share of any other team in MLB and are a huge revenue source. Besides that, economics in NYC are very different than what they are in St Pete. The Yankees do have a right (where the Rays do not) to ask for something extra, they've earned it. That's why I brought up that the Rays will pay for any over runs. It shouldn't be that difficult for even the Soupiest of lawyers to include: "The Rays will be responsible for all costs that exceed the $300 Million contribution from St Pete, Pinellas County, and the State of Florida."

[Aaron Sharockman]

Mal,
It's not pre-paid rent (tho I know that's been thrown out there a lot). Here's the evolution on this.

Rays said initially they would contribute $150-million to the project through increased rent payments. Roughly 10m a year for 30 years...

After hearing some gruff about that, and getting the ok from MLB, the Rays said they would just put the money in up front.

Now, that doesn't mean they won't pay rent at the new place. That hasn't been dicussed. Currently, the Rays pay rent based on the no. of tickets sold. Maybe that arrangement will continue, maybe it won't. Maybe the Rays will not pay any rent, but then maybe the city won't have to contribute to the stadium's operations at all (currently pay about 2mill a year).

All this means, TBD.

Hope that helps.

[Carnac]

Actually Lakeland Guy the Yankees do not bring huge economic benefit to New York. There are studies and studies and studies about this..if you care enough to educate yourself and don't simply wish to spout emotional opinion you can google heartland stop the madness for starters.

Since you are obviously a baseball fan as am I let me forecast for you what will happen. This particular proposal is dead before it even hit's the starting gate. And don't be fooled by all the 1.2 billion dollar development BS...the developers said they would develop even if the Trop stays. That simply means the 75 million..give or take 10-20 mil on whose projections you utilze from the sale price will go for a garage with all of the REST of the taxes going back to the citizens..the rightful owners of that property. This is NOT ABOUT ST PETE CITIZENS GETTING A 1.2 BILLION DOLLAR PROJECT. We can have the developement without the new stadium.
However before Rick K and the rest panic here is how it will go down. The politicians being the incredible cowards they are...or in some cases Dudley and Newton just incredible dullards will put it on the ballot. It will get trounced 70-30 at the polls.
In a couple of years..Sternberg..being the incredible genius he is..will come back with a new proposal..not on the waterfront..where he would face a vote..but either at the current site or somewhere else. He won't have to deal with those pesky voters and he and Mikey Kalt have already shown their talent for manipulating our administration, councils and commissions. This time the voters won't have a say and the Rays can negotiate an even better financial package with the battle cry of "We tried to work with you once before and were rejected, if you reject us this time we are gone!"
Of course there is another possibility which would find the Rays jumping to Orlando..Charlotte..Tampa or wherever which would be a tremendous financial windfall for all citizens of St. Petersburg and Pinellas. The FACTS SPEAK VOLUMES..STADIUMS DO NOT BRING ECONOMIC BENEFITS!!!!

[get-smart]

Lakeland Guy -

Other then a word filter, I believe in the freedom of the blog. I am an American I call a spade a spade. I have no problem with name calling.

When your opinion is fixed, I am not going to change it with my reasoning. There is no reason to talk if I can't insult you and visa versa. I wouldn't participate on a blog when everybody is in agreement.

I believe the big corporate welfare giveaways days to the ML Teams are over. Even your own beloved Lakeland isn't going to cough up a half a billion dollars and hand it over to the Rays.

The Rays can build their own stadium with their own money on the existing Trop site. That is the area that needs redevelopment not downtown.

Many bloggers show links to facts that prove ML teams provide no economical benefit to the city they are in. The supposed benefits are a mirage not a fact.

And as far as Lawyering goes, it depends on "the meaning of the word is."

Long Live the Internet & THE WATERFRONT IS OFF LIMITS!

-

[Jon McPhee]

04:28 sounds exactly like Rick K, who swears he is "not not" a politician.

"carpetbaggers

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition | Date: 2008

carpetbaggers: epithet used in the South after the Civil War to describe Northerners who went to the South during Reconstruction to make money. Although regarded as transients because of the carpetbags in which they carried their possessions (hence the name carpetbaggers ), most intended to settle in the South and take advantage of speculative and commercial opportunities there. With the support of the black vote the carpetbaggers played an important role in the Republican state governments. The corrupt activities of some made the term carpetbagger synonymous with any outsider who meddles in an area's political affairs for his own benefit."

Which part is scurrilous, again?

[Don in St. Pete]

Lakeland Guy, Though you are technically correct in the assessment that the Yanks are paying for most of the cost of the new stadium, there is still a huge public subsidy over $800 million. In addition they are benefitting from the tax free bonds which is a value of probably another $200 million. Still a huge public giveaway in times where the general populace is hit hard by the weak dollar, high food and gas prices and rising unemployment.

[Don in St. Pete]

Lakeland Guy, Though you are technically correct in the assessment that the Yanks are paying for most of the cost of the new stadium, there is still a huge public subsidy over $800 million. In addition they are benefitting from the tax free bonds which is a value of probably another $200 million. Still a huge public giveaway in times where the general populace is hit hard by the weak dollar, high food and gas prices and rising unemployment.

[get-smart]

Carnac -

They could build a stadium anywhere else in the city without a city wide vote. They engineered the demise of a 90 year tradition of spring training in St. Pete without consulting the city council or residents.

What's wrong with Al Lang? The Rays are in 1st/2nd place! They could have worked with the city [perhaps they did$] to make a team swap. Their greed is so overwhelming that the only deal was the waterfront. Typical Goldman Sachs criminality.

And you are saying their Plan B is to go to some other mid-size city. Call Tampa! to see if they will give these crooks a billion dollars. Call Charlotte! Call Nashville! Call Portland!

I cannot see any city spending a billion dollars to enrich these greedy NY Goldman Sacks investment bankers who became wealthy by aiding and abetting the outsourcing of our American jobs to China and now pushing oil to $200/bbl!

They are stuck here! and we hold all the cards!! I raise you 350 million dollars sucker! HA HA

Long Live the Internet & THE WATERFRONT IS OFF LIMITS!

-

[get-smart]

Carnac -

They could build a stadium anywhere else in the city without a city wide vote. They engineered the demise of a 90 year tradition of spring training in St. Pete without consulting the city council or residents.

What's wrong with Al Lang? The Rays are in 1st/2nd place! They could have worked with the city [perhaps they did$] to make a team swap. Their greed is so overwhelming that the only deal was the waterfront. Typical Goldman Sachs criminality.

And you are saying their Plan B is to go to some other mid-size city. Call Tampa! to see if they will give these crooks a billion dollars. Call Charlotte! Call Nashville! Call Portland!

I cannot see any city spending a billion dollars to enrich these greedy NY Goldman Sacks investment bankers who became wealthy by aiding and abetting the outsourcing of our American jobs to China and now pushing oil to $200/bbl!

They are stuck here! and we hold all the cards!! I raise you 350 million dollars sucker! HA HA

Long Live the Internet & THE WATERFRONT IS OFF LIMITS!

-

[Demetrios]

Carnac (not so magnificent)

"Of course there is another possibility which would find the Rays jumping to Orlando..Charlotte..Tampa or wherever which would be a tremendous financial windfall for all citizens of St. Petersburg and Pinellas. The FACTS SPEAK VOLUMES..STADIUMS DO NOT BRING ECONOMIC BENEFITS!!!!"

That has got to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on this blog and I've seen a lot! I grew up in downtown St. Pete, from 1979-1986. There has been such a huge change in the past 20 years and I personally believe it stems from the construction of the dome. I heard the same arguments then as I do now. It's a known fact that the Vinoy renovation was a direct result of that facility going up. Someone, who actually lived in St.Pete at that time, tell me where the St.Pete waterfront would be without the Vinoy. IT STARTED THE CHANGE!

So, somehow downtown St. Pete has thrived in the past 10 years. That's amazing since stadiums "bring no economic benefits" and by your logic, should be draining the life out of the county. Or quite possibly it did benefit this community. You can google any publication you want, look at any statistcs you want. I lived it and know that THIS stadium was a huge benefit and the new one would be even better. It's only my opinion. You want to change my mind, show me something that states that the TROP had no economic impact.

[get-smart]

Demetrios: RRRick K : Lakeland Jack ,whatever, Go back to Tarpon. you know nothing about the Vinoy.

Here are some hard numbers:
http://www.goodjobsny.org/lootfinal3.pdf

[Demetrios]

get-smart

Would you say those things if you were face-to-face with Stu Sternberg? Do you know Stu Sternberg? Were you hugged as a child?

People, and this goes for the pros and anti's, let's be objective and keep personal attacks out of it because you are just showing your insecurities by hiding behind fictitious names and spewing hatred.

[Demetrios]

get-real

I rest my case.

Hope you get a hug tonight.

[Don in St. Pete]

Demetrios, you must be drinking Michael Kalt's kool-aid. Look around the Trop and tell me what you see, other than Ferg's it's devastation. Go to BayWalk and interview the people there and I'll bet less than 1 in a hundred went to the Rays game. The Vinoy was built to house the opposing team's player when in town. Big freakin' deal. Pinellas Park has probably gotten as much out of Sunshine Speedway as we got out of the Rays.

[John]

LOL Rick K is now Demetrios and espousing a civil blog? LMFAO!!

Rick K, have a beer, and go back to Match.com

This sideshow is all but over.

[Demetrios]

To all

Just my opinion. If you go by the dome, there are new condos in the area and new apts going up. It's not a lot but it's something. It's not devestation. Granted, the dome didn't live up to everything they said it would, but it did help the downtown area. I lived there and work there. Do any of you?

BTW, not all Greeks are from Tarpon. If you are going to be an idiot, at least try to be original

[get-smart]

Demetrios

I got news for you. Stu and his kind hide from the public. They are called everything under the sun, just like the politicians.

[neanderthalsrule]

We have learned well from our masters the Rays. Did you see the cool way the Rays pulled their gas guzzling Hummer and other vehicle in on private property to block the big Red Sign.
Well we just destroyed two more of them..that's three signs down for our side. Those poor POWW people don't have the money to keep replacing these things since they don't have deep pockets like the Rays. Who needs shills like Aaron and Rick K and Ray F..we'll take care of this thing ourselves. THE RAYS RULE!!!

[carnac]

Demetrios,

Thanks for trying to be civil. You make exactly the point of why trying to discuss this issue with the PRO's is so futile. As you candidly confess it's all about your OPINION.
"You can google any publication you want, look at any statistcs you want"
That's the spirit Demetrios...insist that your opinion outweighs ALL scientific data or the countless independent studies. No I was not suggesting that the Dome has bankrupted us...but 12 million a year in subsidy has hardly repaid itself despite your lofty OPINIONS!!! We pay our police force 80 million a year...the Rays pay 3 players..Pena, Crawford, and Kazmir 30 million a year. Lets's see..30 million a year for 3 players...80 million a year for an ENTIRE police force!!! 30 million a year for 3 players yet still requiring a 12 million a year subsidy. This would be funny if it weren't such a pathetic commentary on our society's values. Ohhh I know Rick K start spouting about a 1.2 billion development yadayadayada.
Once again we are left with your OPINION the Rays PROJECTIONS versus HISTORICAL FACTS!!!!

[Rick K]

Carnac, you are guilty of that which you accuse Demetrios of commiting.

You WANT to believe that public investment in sports stadiums create negative economic benefits, so you soak up and adore any source that repeats that myth, despite their being no proof (at all) to substantiate it.

What all those studies and articles (all 100 of them, or however many Judy-Too and Don Mott have linked to) do is the very same thing done in this thread.

Someone says, "sure there has been a resurgence in development in downtown St. Pete, but the Rays had NOTHING to do with that."

Such an assertion is preposterous, flies in the face of common sense, and, far more importantly, CANNOT BE PROVEN.

This is the same as people who peform studies and claim that Florida's lower tax burden DOES NOT attract people to the state. Or a study which claims that the nice weather actually has a NEGATIVE economic impact on the area.

A study can claim anything. It can even conclude anything. But it can't prove that which cannot be proven.

CARNAC, your assertions are absurd. You claim that historical facts prove that public investment in infrastructure do not produce economic benefits.

That assertion is false. And has never been proven.

HOWEVER, If that assertion was true, than THESE paired redevelopment proposals represent a way to overcome that particular built-in handicap of public investment in sports stadia. By replacing 86 acres of public sports stadium property with PRIVATE tax-generating, job-generating property, these proposals may actually be the ultimate model for moving forward.

If the new stadium investment will lose money, it MIGHT be possible that the gain from the Trop field redevelopment will MORE than offset that. Which means we may have stumbled upon a solution other regions have not tried.

But you won't even allow for that possibility, because your mind is made up.

[Ray F]

Happy Friday 13th,

BUILD IT!!!

[Albany]

As we get closer to decision dates, we have to evaluate the benefits vs. risks of the Rays proposal. It seems to me that the grade for the Rays to date is neither A+ nor F, but Incomplete. When that happens in school, you have to repeat the course to get credit.

[Rick K]

Nice try, Albany.

The course is not yet complete.

If the Rays have not presented enough information to the Council by August 7 (when the course is over), they will get an F.

Until then, let's not try to CHEAT the debate by pretending their is some artificial (and always moving) deadline.

The flow of information is coming on a time schedule acceptable to overwhelming majorities of the populace, who will not even TRY to figure all this out until October or November.

[since1962 re RICK]

The TDC votes in ONE month for the 100 millon dollar piece of this fantasy baseball and yet NO INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS as requested by TDC board member and concerned St Pete council members pleading with the Rays for alternatives and to TABLE THIS!

[Sween]

Looks like the Rays got a big fat Incomplete! Now lets see if the business community wants to subsidize another business. The Rays can pay for their new stadium in St. Pete after they have paid off the debt and paid for the demolition of the current stadium. Every damn one of the franchise owners knew what they were getting into. The taxpayers were duped once. It will not happen again. Anarchy if that occurs.

[Rick K]

Sween, fortunately for the rest of us, YOU will not be dictating the terms of any future stadium deal with the Trop.

What you devoted ANTI's have done is taken the public out of the mix, probably.