Just in: City picks Archstone-Madison

ST. PETERSBURG — Mayor Rick Baker on Friday recommended developers Archstone and Madison Marquette to turn Tropicana Field and its sprawling parking lots into a urban village accented by an outdoor mall almost as big as International Plaza.

The $1.2-billion development, which would be the largest in the city’s history, hinges on the Tampa Bay Rays’ plan to construct a new stadium on St. Petersburg’s waterfront. The City Council also must approve the recommendation of the mayor next week.

If it passes both tests, however, the Archstone-Madison development would include 1,935 for-rent apartments and 755 for-sale condominiums and townhomes, 800,000 square feet of new office space and at least two hotels totaling 600 rooms.

The Washington D.C.-area developers beat out finalist Hines, a Houston company that had been working with the Rays on a smaller redevelopment concept. The Rays on Friday congratulated Archstone-Madison and said they were eager to work with the Washington, D.C.-area developers.

Though it was the largest proposed development, Archstone-Madison’s apparent selection comes as a surprise. For months, opponents of the Rays’ stadium and redevelopment proposal argued that the process was set up so that only the Rays-backed bid of Hines could win.

And even some stadium supporters simply believed Hines would prevail simply because the company was better known.

“We wouldn’t have recommended Archstone-Madison if we weren’t comfortable with them,” said city senior development administrator Rick Mussett. “We’re looking for what’s in the city’s best long term interest. We felt Archstone had a little better vision.”

Read the recommendation here.

Comments

[Don in St. Pete]

Aaron, There doesn't appear to be anything here.

[Aaron Sharockman]

Get-smart

I deleted your comment. I'm sure you know why.

[Thomas]

Aaron - thanks for another action packed day on the Frankness. Have a great wkend.

Regards, respect,
T

[Native]

so much for Chris Jenkins and his conspiracy theory

[get-smart]

AAron I didn't post anything here. It must be the phantom blogger.

[Lisa]

Geez, there is no approval for the new stadium yet and we are already lining up someone to remodel the Trop. First we kick out hundreds of poor people to build the Trop and now we have to build a new field because it is not good enough for the Rays. To top it off the city wants to build apts and condos for the rich. Mayor Rick Baker what happened? When did you become such a turn coat against the people, we can't even affort to live in St. Petersburg and this is an improvement?

[Chris Jenkins]

Haha! Native, you kill me. If you couldn't recognize the tongue in cheek in my post regarding Hines, then sorry 'bout your luck.

Here's the good thing about Archstone Madison being chosen. The Hines proposal did not include AFFORDABLE housing, as was supposed to be a requirement (ask around and see who all feels that 200-600K condos represent affordable housing). The AM deal does. Once again, if this thing goes all the way to the end, I want to see the best possible outcome. This move is in the right direction.

[Rays Mike]

"Condos for the rich" means they will be paying more property tax on land that currently is not on the tax roll = more money for schools and city services.

[Mike]

It's really cute that you think that's where they'd allocate the money first, Rays Mike. Really cute, indeed.

[get-smart]

Has any one read pg 20-21 of the pdf above? It looks like to me A-M is over extended. But don't worry nobody understand this stuff.

[get-smart]

Here is something on A-M. They are a private company owned by Lehman. Lehman looks like it is going the way of Bear Sterns. I don't get it. How about this company crashes and the city goes to Hines. Hines this time has a new deal.

http://www.archstonesmith.com/investors/pdf/MergerClose10-5-07.pdf

The mayor and city staff should be sacked!

[Houston]

Isn't there a large block of unoccupied office and housing along Central already?

[Houston]

Any bets the companies occupying this fictitious space get tax credits.

[Jill]

OMG! It is well worth the time to read the .pdf listed from St. Petersburg government. It scares me to read "if" this and "if" that happens, "subject" to this and that. 'Get-smart' is right, sounds like a fine line on the finacial side and a shaky future with AM that has no guarantees.

[Jon McPhee]

Is it time yet for all us mere minimum-wage taxpaying mortals to change our names to Ben Dover?

And Aaron -- is a "Yes" vote on allowing demolition and denseer development on the site of the Al Lang stadium an actual go-no go REQUIREMENT for this -- thing -- to go forward? Or has the "Let Us Vote" crowd just been laughing up their sleeves at our bovine ignorance of "how things really work?"

It's a serious question, Aaron. Do "we the people" actually have any say at all in which way the elephants stampede?

[Jason R.]

Sounds like a done deal. Guess we better practice bending over and grabbing our ankles. Ouch.

[Don in St. Pete]

Jason, it get's even worse. If you read the proposal the developer is not even guaranteeing any payments beyond stage one. In other works if the ecnomy stays in the tank or nobody wants to move to Florida we're stuch with the $800 million dollar bill. If the City Council votes to approve this without guarantees they will be toast. Even stadium advocates have to be concerned about the city;s exposure on this risky scheme.

[False Accusations by Ford]

I would like to hear a formal apology from Ford and POWW regarding the bid tampering accusations of the city and specifically the purchasing department.

These are serious statements that should not be made without hard proof. Ford quoted a green building NY website and a building construction bid information service to make a case. Both are not journalist. They are services who try to predict the future of the construction industry so that contractors have a opportunity to contact such developers about projects.

Ford wishes to be mayor but insults and claims illegal activity by the people she would like to lead. These statements are a disgrace and have were given maliciously to taint our cities reputation.

Hine's not being selected merely cements the reputation of this process because they had the weaker proposal. The city chose the developer's plan that would benefit St. Pete the greatest. They made the right decision.

[Trop Redevelopment is needed]

This is exactly the time when we need such a development. Your putting to work 1000's of contractors tradesmen and professionals. Your injecting the local economy with a influx of dollars. Once office and retail space is built you have opportunities for more new jobs.

Even if only a third of the project was completed it would still be one of the largest developments ever in the city and would be a significant tax base increase. The day it changes hands they start paying taxes on the dirt.

The anti "waterfront stadium" protest has tainted your opinions of the trop redevelopment on it's own merits. This development would be good for the local economy through construction and the final product.

[Get Smarter]

1.2 billion dollars coming into St. Pete's economy. Why in the world wouldn't you embrace this. This doesn't even take into account the 450 mil of construction work and money coming in for the stadium itself.

OK so the worst thing that happens is that they only build 400 mil of the project and get 70 mil for the site. Not too bad.

The city will have a clause that if they do not develop portions of the site in a given time it will revert back to the city. Case in point the Grand Bohemian Site behind progress energy. This land will revert back to the city if they don't break ground next year. Progress energy has first right of refusal, if not exercised it may be sold through another RFP. The Progress energy tower was done in a similar manner.

[Will Ferrell]

It's 1:30 a.m., time for your nightly dose of Cowbell action. Oh, YEEEEEAAHHH!!!

[Joe]

Sound like a very exciting plan.
This master-plan could set the stage for downtown for the next 25 years.

bravo!

[Paul]

Nothing like putting the cart before the horse, before you've even decided to get a cart or a horse. I'm rather unhappy at the huge waste of time, money and resources our City is throwing at this sure to fail turd laden project.

[Robert Thompson]

Mr Sharockman, You write as if the ball park "will" be built. This is not carved in stone. The city cannot afford it and the voters must vote. Historically the people of are very conservative. So hold on just a minute.
Quite frankly I'm against it. Hter is nothing wrong with the one we have and IT is NOT paid for.

[since1962]

Redevelopment of the wasteful barren tropicana parking lots can be accomplished WITHOUT sacrificing the waterfront and WITHOUT the traffic and parking nightmare/fantasy.The ADVERTISING revenue that would benefit the Times from this "bigger than International Plaza" is clouding objectivity.

[The Liars have lost another one]

Nearly every day we learn that yet another of the POWW lies was never true in the first place. It's startling how quickly they move on to the next set of lies.

Lisa (6:18). The timeline has always been that it made no sense to negotiate a lease with the Rays for a new stadium unless it was known that the Trop was actually a viable site for redevelopment that the City accepts. The NEXT step is to negotiate the lease with the Team, then let the citizens vote on it. Nice try at pretending that the order of events is not proper.

Mike (7:23). Nice try at PRETENDING that the law does not specifically allocate property taxes. Why must you people try to lie about things that are so easily checked out.

Get-Smart (7:57). We can read. Your assesment of the credit worthiness of a multi-billion dollar enterprise does not convince any of us. We wouldn't value your assesment of your next door neighbor's credit worthiness, either.

Houston. We have a problem. (Ha!) There are unoccupied properties in the neighborhood you identify. These proposals should help correct increase occupancy in those existing structures, or we might see them replaced with less obsolete buildings.

Jill (9:08). If the word "if" scares you. Please seek help. Everyday of our lives present a never ending stream of "ifs." The condition you describe is a form of irrational paranoia. If you call 2-1-1, they can help you.

Jon (9:22). You may also want to call 2-1-1. They can get your help for your form of paranoia, too.

Don (11:18). Funny. "risky scheme" did not work as a campaign slogan for Al Gore. It will not work for you, either. This development proposal is no more risky than any private land sale the City/County has been involved in to date. Worst case scenario, the City ends up with a million square feet of retail and still has the Trop. Which, oddly, is what some claim to want. The risk is that you'll get what you want, I guess.

Ford was false (11:27). You will not see apologies. Nor will you see Ford as Mayor.

Trop (11:55). Yep.

Get Smarter (12:07). The crazies in the "anti rebellion" will never acknowledge that you have stated an excellent case demonstrating how the risk they claim to fear has been greatly mitigated.

Joe (4:42). Yep.

Paul (7:01). You should use Turd a few more times. And, so that you know, many of us hope to see you eating those turds when the voters approve this deal!

Robert Thompson (8:26): Aaron does not write as though the projects will be built. He is very even handed in his presentation. If anything, he gives a bit too much legitimacy to the straw man arguments of the POWW kooks. (See entire thread about Long John Silvers ads on the Sail). Nice try at lying that Aaron's reporting has biased in favor of these proposals.

Since1962 (9:32): What you are bringing up is not on the table, and is not what the Rays and City staff think is optimal. Nice try at distraction.

Everyone: I was with three friends last night. Someone began listing on a napkin all the lies, distortions and distractions that have been raised thus far by the "anti rebellion". More than four dozen attempts to trick the people. It will not work.

[To the moron @ 11:51am]

Rick K--guerilla blogger extrodonaire...

Let us vote!

We'll see who loses!

[since1962]

Liar
This is OUR issue and OUR table. The vote may determine the outcome and when no alternatives have been allowed to be discussed and city council is begging the rays to table the issue for FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THE ISSUES you have a an unnecessary rush of a major redevelopment for which the city is NOT equipped to negotiate properly in this rushed atmosphere.

[John]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let me get this straight.

Archstone proposes 600 hundred hotel rooms on the redeveloped Trop site. Yet they're going to demolish the Trop?

Does this make any sense to anyone?

The Trop has so much under-utilized potential as a convention center, pro-sports venue, concert venue and community events center, in addition to being the home of the Rays.

Who is going to fill these 600 hotel rooms? If the Trop is demolished, our chances of landing more sports events(can you say final-four or NBA?), large conventions, trade shows, home shows, boat shows, etc is all but effectively wiped out, FOREVER.

Last time I checked, they don't hold conventions & Final Four tournaments in an outdoor ballpark. And the way the seating is configured at the proposed new ballpark, the views for a football layout would be horrendous. Concerts at a new ballpark would violate existing noise ordinances, so they're out too. (Fresco's can't even have a live band INSIDE without the police being called).

So basicly we'll be gambling on keeping a few shoppers from heading to International Plaza in Tampa, in exchange for the GUARANTEE that the Tampa Convention Center and St. Pete Times Forum have a monopoly on all these potential future events. FOREVER! But hey, we might get ONE All-Star game for all the trouble.

Does this make sense?

With the amount of office/hi tech planned for "Eco-Verde", the only hotel that would be sustainable would be a 125 room Courtyard by Marriot or similar size hotel. Not 600 rooms!!!

Are people going to come to "Eco-Verde" to spend the night so they can shop at Nordstroms? Or will they stay on the beach or at the Vinoy? If I had the money to shop at International Plaza, I can tell you my answer. A no-brainer.

Add 1700+ apartments to the downtown grid, several thousand new office workers, 5-9k additional cars looking for a spot to park for a baseball game 1 out of every 5 days, several hundered more condo units, 600 more hotel rooms....are you kidding me? We would have to completely rebuild the entire downtown street grid to handle that kind of volume. Who's paying for that?


My parents always told me never to complain about something unless you have an idea for a solution. The solution is quite simple. Leave Al Lang alone so we can solicit another FSL/Grapefruit league and/or spring training team. Build a 3-4 star convention style hotel on the NE corner of the Trop property (with an independent parking deck to service the hotel to the the south). Replace those lost spaces with a parking deck on the property west of 16th St. And partner with the Rays to actually market the new convention hotel and the Trop to bigger and more profitible events on the 284 days a year the Rays aren't playing ball.


Let's think this out, folks. We're being rushed into a decision that will forever alter our city's character and livability, and we're being offered ZERO alternatives other than....NO.


Respectfully,

John Rose
St. Petersburg native and resident

CC:
Mayor Rick Baker
St. Petersburg City Council
Members of the BOCC
Members of the Tourist Development Council
CONA
CNCN
Barrier Islands Governmental Council
St. Pete Times Editorial Board

[Moron]

We will see who is a moron. The idiots who must make up lies and distract, or the majority who will approve this thing!

BUILD THE NEW WATERFRONT STADIUM!

REDEVELOP THE TROP SITE!

KNIBBS HIGH FOOTBALL RULES!

[get-smart]

"Say it ain't so Joe" -

Why is the city being put at risk at the behest of these Goldman Sachs hucksters? Why is the city being sucked into this mortgage meltdown crisis?

Apparently, the mayor, city staff and council don't realize with whom they're dealing in the form of the Rays ownership. If they do, then it is malfeasance.

Lehman is crashing right now and the mayor and his band o' merry men accept some email statement from an Archstone salesman telling them how everything is fine.

Archstone is probably the only part of Lehman that might have some value. But don't worry, the CEO of Lehman with his gang will loot whatever has value in the company before the ship goes the way of Bear Stearns and the CEO and his pals will disappear into the sunset of the Hampton's.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/WHAT-S-THE-DIFFERENCE-BETW-by-Ellen-Brown-080613-112.html

-
My proposal is to sit this one out until the mortgage fiasco passes and let us see who is standing.

Can I get a second! Can I get a witness!

It may take two or three years, I am in no rush. This will give us enough time to figure out where to build a new stadium. Everybody knows that the Al Lang waterfront is off limits.

Cheers!

[Amused by distractions]

John and Get-Smart will try ANYTHING to derail this train!

ANYTHING!

[Amused by 1962]

This is not a rush. Your mischaracterization happens to square 100% with the "anti rebellion."

They want this deal killed, by any means necessary.

Your LIE that this is a rush is an attempt to cloak the agenda to kill these proposals in deceptive robes.

[since1962]

Amused

Fortunatly the televised meetings are preserved and the economic forecast of the TDC meeting combined with the unresponsive RUSHED agenda of the rays as captured on camera are undeniable.

[John]

Rick K, c'mon man, at least use your real name when you make personal attacks.

You do exactly what you accuse members of POWW of doing, except you change your name. That is called hypocrisy.

[John]

And I'm sure the TDC would be much more receptive of a responsible, reasonable offer to use the bed tax money in a way I mentioned above.

The TDC IS allowed to use that money for conventions, hotels to support them, etc. And I'm sure they'd like to keep the snowbirds coming, that have for 90+ years come here for a week on the beach and to watch their home team train at Al Lang. That part of the draw is gone now that the Rays took away Spring Training. Snowbirds don't come here in the summer, they come here in the spring, to escape their extended winters.

[Greg]

Aaron,

As I have followed this story, it appears that yet another POWW position proven to be untrue..

It sure would be nice for you to run a fact vs fiction on POWW in the paper. But make sure you go back to when they formed and capture every comment/allegation they have made.

The list is growing on their statements being proven as baseless.

[John]

I agree with Greg about exposing POWW...but to be fair, we must expose both sides of the argument since both sides have been equally guilty of personal attacks, sign stealing, making up projections and calling them facts, etc.

I especially like the one from Silverman and the Rays telling the TDC that over 60% of the stadium financing is sourced from non-public (private) funding. That's hilarious.

[since1962]

of course !!
investigate opponents fully while ignoring the pesky details of this complex proposal lest the ramifications become clear BEFORE the vote!

[get-smart]

RRRick K. -

You are amazing! If it wasn't for you this blog would be boring.

Have a good Fathers Day!

I could care less about POWW. I still don't want to see this huge stadium built right on the waterfront. No amount of lies or sinister behavior on either side of the issue will change my mind.

I will vote NO as will 68% of my friends.

[Jill]

Just a thought but geez where are we going to hold all those High School Graduations without the Trop? The new statium would not guarantee no rainout on these special moments as the Trop can, not to mention unlimited seating for families. (this was a big controversy in another county) We no longer have a Bayfront Convention Center, now the Trop is used for many of the former with AC! Also the trop offers an effective soundbarrier for local residents against loud concerts with AC. You want new hotel rooms for what a large non-existing convention center that will not be in St. Petersburg. I doubt we would get any overflow from Tampa events unless a person is willing to waste gas driving back and forth. We can 'develop' some unused areas of the Trop parking to enhance downtown. I want to see the city grow too but also use common sense in the process. I for one do NOT want to become another Tampa. There is no sense in the new ballfield except greed for the waterfront. We have a gift in St. Petersburg of such a beautiful waterfront. I for one will not be going to any more games if it is in the open oppressive & humid heat. Oh well the bottom line is when it is time to vote, the people will speak one way or the other. Remember the St. Pete airport, we voted to keep it!

[Paul]

Shhhh, smell that? Its Rick K. at his keyboard magically being other people. Happy Father's Day Rick K. and I really mean that. Take a break on Sunday, you need it. You're getting quite awnry with your name calling to just about everyone on here. Go to the beach, go to a ballgame (if there is one), just do something that doesn't involve a keyboard. We worry about you at times.

[Mike]

$65 million to be paid over 7 yrs.?? So not only does the offer fall short of paying off the existing debt, but the city will have to go out and borrow even more money to front the team against future payments and our repayment source this time is from a developer? Do we really want to get into another business deal/partnership (a la Bay Plaza) with these guys? Not to mention the 13 yr buildout and the fact that they are significantly overbuilding every product type for this market. Silverman/Kalt talk like those tax revenues will be there overnight. The developer is simply backing into a purchase price by proposing the amount of development that justifies this price based on some very optimistic (unrealistic) projections without much regard as to what this market can really absorb. A-M is proposing basically three Signature Towers' worth of condo units, 800k s.f. of office space well away from the downtown core which already has significant vacancy. With regard to the retail component, what does this guarantee mean? If they don't have anchor tenant commitments, this part of the project will not get financed and the current economic environment is such that most of the larger anchors are struggling themselves. They are pulling out of deals all over the country and pushing back opening dates of the stores thay committed to before the last holidays' sales debacle. The projected start date of this project in 2010 is delusional. The project should be scaled down with a new stadium anchoring the existing site. The A-M proposal has the best design (and worst name) but they fail to understand this market, which is typical for an out of town developer.

Hey Kalt, there is no breeze anywhere here in August/Sept. and if you lived here longer than a few months you would know that.

[Don Mott]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in the re-development debate is what effect it might possibly have on the downtown merchants, restaurants, bars and Bay Walk. Admittedly I quit going downtown years ago so I am not up to date on the current events there. But I do believe that it should be something to be concerned about and considered. I certainly don't have an opinion on this I'm just throwing it out there for debate and opinions from others.

[since1962]

Don
This was discussed in meetings with developers who included movie theatre component to tropicana redevelopment which was nixed but otherwise little discussion has been heard regarding overall mix with existing business. Again THE RUSH!

[Jon McPhee]

For all the folks that think we should just trust our omnicompetent government officials to know visions from reality, there’s a couple of stories in the Times today for you to ponder or explain away. On the question of “projections” and math-by-staff, it appears that Hillsborough County staff missed short of the mark (by a large fraction of a billion bucks) in, I guess, guesstimating the actual retail value of various “contributions” developers were supposed to make to the road part of infrastructure. Guess who makes up the difference on the $6 billion the County says is needed to deal just with congestion on certain roads? Now that’s Hillsborough County for you – I’m sure our own city and county folks will be spot-on.

And I guess we should be happy that the rate at which properties are falling into foreclosure has dropped a little this quarter. That’s the good news, to counter the “surge in unpaid real estate taxes.” Might the latter have some effect on municipal borrowing, not to mention yet more belt-tightening for the average schmuck? Naw – the billions and billions in new taxes TBD “down the road” will fill them public coffers right back to overflowing.

There was one more – Oh yeah, the surprise rise in the costs of the planned Bruce B. Downs bypass to New Tampa. Like the writer said: “The problem: At $50 million a mile, the expressway would be expensive, even by road-building standards.” Seems that after dumping a whole lot of money in the laps of various consultants and engineers, Mayor Iorio now thinks that even with a $6 toll, the public-private partnership wouldn’t pan out. Maybe what the Two Towers needs is toll booths?

Will the "Oops" from underestimating public costs and overestimating payback times and amounts, or plain old dishonest fudging, be credited to "understandable and forgivable errors and oversights," with the "Oops"ers shading off into the wings?

I’m sure the “paired developments” will come in on time, under budget and better than expected, so long as the owners and developers have a free hand in the double-bookkeeping that would require.

If you want to build it, you should darn well pay for it yourselves. All of it. Like the real live actual business people managed to do in putting up the Giants’ new park in San Francisco. And they are actually making a reasonable profit off their risk capital adventure.

[John]

What irritates me is the fact that we, as residents of Pinellas, have one of the biggest convention/trade show magnets in the country. Our beaches. If we SERIOUSLY marketed the Trop, and added the hotel like I mentioned above, we could be a premier convention spot in the country. Bigger than Tampa. We could use that Trop 250+ nights a year. We could easily maintain a profitble convention hotel on the property. It just takes marketing.

Convention & Trade show planners love Orlando/Disney because conventioneers often bring their families. We have better than Disney...free beaches. 2 of the top-rated consistently in the country. Day one, Dad goes to a convention at the Trop, while mom & the kids hit the beaches. Day two the family goes downtown to explore. Day three, the Rays are back in town. Some will stay at The Trop hotel, some will stay on the beaches. Same goes for the dozens of graduation/awards ceremonies that can no longer be held at Bayfront Arena someone mentioned above. Those 1-3K people per event may seem like small potatoes, but they draw family members into town who need a place to stay. They spend money downtown in the restaraunts & bars, like the conventioneers do. And they go to Rays games.

The conventions, paired with the new hotel, will bring new businesses & residents to.....you guessed it, the blighted central ave corridor we were supposed to revitalize in the FIRST PLACE!

The dome is worth far more to this city than the narrow-sighted baseball fan cares to believe. We just haven't utilized it properly or aggressively enough.

Bring downtown to the Trop, not the other way around.

Tear it down, and none of the above is possible.

[Rick K]

Why are the exact same people on this thread making the exact same arguments they made five or six or eight weeks ago?

[Don Mott]

Maybe, Rick it is because they are good arguments. I would hope you weren't throwing my comment @ 5:17 into your mix. If you were you are wrong it is not an argument. If you weren't why do you not have an opinion?

[John]

Rick K

It's time to call you out. Your a jackass, in my opinion. Perhaps that's your "M.O.", perhaps you just enjoy being a jackass. That is your right.

For weeks on this and Troxler's blog, people have been airing their opinions, solutions, compromises, critizisms, jokes, good points and bad about this entire project. It has been informative.

While you have done nothing more than write 10,000 words of facist (trust the companies, they will do us no wrong!!!), slanderous, silly, liable, ridiculous ad hominem spin nonsense.

If you're doing it for entertainment, I feel sorry you have no life. If you're doing it for education, you've got a long road ahead.

You've not offered one SINGLE alternative (negotiate/compromise) to this proposal that you can not deny is opposed vehemently by many other voters, other bloggers, other commenters, polls, the TDC, etc...etc...etc....

And if you retort with "This is the offer the Rays & A/M presented, and I am 100% for it"...then you truly are a facist.

Just because the Rays' made the mistake of offering NO alternatives for discussion or compromise, that is not the citizens' fault. It is the Rays fault.

But we do get to vote.

This country was founded on debate, on discussion, on free expression of alternative viewpoints and ideas. On Compromise. That is what makes us great.

You, on the other hand, are nothing more than a corporate-lemming-facist, screaming "how high?" when the Rays ask you to jump.

Happy Fathers Day

[Rick K]

John:

Thank you for proving my point.

And I am pretty sure facists don't celebrate fathers day.

[Rick K]

Don, I wasn't necessarily including your remark at 5:17 in my summative description of what I found on these blogs today.

However, in reply to your post. You must have missed where City Staff is, as part of their analysis of these proposals, attempting to gauge the negative impact of any retail cannibalization that might be created by these proposals.

The fact that you apparently missed this is evidence of the large amount of information the Rays and the City have provided to the public in recent weeks.

[since1962]

At the TDC meeting ST Pete Councilmember Curran was asked by fellow TDC board member if INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS of proposal had been completed and the answer was NO.
Trust the Rays
Trust the city
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Rick K,

Can you at least stop spouting the 1.2billion figure as if it were FACT. It is a PROJECTION. The folks making this projection Rays/developers have an obvious conflict of interest..another FACT. These projections have been used repeatedly in the past..Bay Plaza here in St. Pete..the Centro Ybor fiasco more recently in Tampa. At the time these projects were announced there were many Rick K's on the sidelines touting these PROJECTIONS as Facts. You continually site the professionalism of city staff even though the last time they PROJECTED a 2 million dollar cost of remediation which turned out to be 5.7 MILLION!!! Did these folks SUDDENLY become professional. It is widely known in city circles that Rick Mussett will do ANYTHING to prostitute our city for MLB. It is his right to be an MLB fan, but when he has been such an abject failure with OUR MONEY it is our right to wonder why he hasn't been fired and our right to wonder how you can possibly call his many blunders professional. He said there were no remediation wells monitoring the Trop site. MISTAKE!!! Now you wish to believe his lackey Mike Connors that the risk is only $100,000!!!
Smart investors examine risk versus return. The only return on this is for the New York Owners and the baseball fanatics! The average citizen sees absolutely NO return with a HUGE RISK!!! What if the redevelopment fails. What if remediation estimates are as flawed as the last time our PROFESSIONAL STAFF performed their due diligence. Rick K you might be Michael Kalt's favorite blogger but you never produce facts..only opinions which quite frankly is at the root of this entire debate. The PRO's toss out their projections and opinions with NO FACTS to back them up...the ANTI'S counter with historical FACT and the PROS resort to name calling. I have had this debate with many friends and the only intellectual response I've received that I can't actually counter is "I don't really care how much the taxpayers get soaked..I love baseball and will do ANYTHING to make sure it stays. Incuding succumbing to the despicable types like Bud Selig who is a true slimeball by anybody's definition, blackmailing us." How can you argue with that? Notice I didn't call Mr. Sternberg names because I believe he is simply a New York investor trying to maximize his profit. Nothing wrong with that...nothing wrong with us telling him to do it at somebody else's expense. Bud Selig on the other hand is a true weasel and slimeball by anybody's definition. That is not an attempt at namecalling simply identifying Selig for what he is and what he has been referred to by many of his fellow Wisconsins including elected officials...journalists...etc.

[Rick K]

A Truly Concerned.

I have presented MANY, MANY facts.

You aren't paying attention.

Or you don't know what Facts are.

And you also ignore the reality that facts only serve to reinforce the emotional decision everyone will make about whether or not to support or like these paired redevelopment proposals.

You act as though the only facts that are available point towards a NO VOTE.

You do this, interestingly, while mixing in unsupported claims with your post.

As to the impact on development, it's very simple.

If the Stadium construction will cost $450,000,000 (in 2007 dollars). And if the GUARANTEED phase I of the Trop Field redevelopment will cost about $500,000,000, then we KNOW that downtown will see almost a BILLION DOLLARS in construction.

That is the only reasonable conclusion from the facts, as we know them so far. If these deals move forward, that money will be spent. Thinking that all manner of extremely rare things might happen to prevent either of those two expenditures is not reasonable.

Keep on fooling yourself.

Doesn't impress me.

[Don Mott]

Rick, to save me time can you direct me to reports of those discussions?

[John]

More attacks from Rick K....Rick, you realize you represent the Rays opinion when you post, right? You're only hurting the Rays credebility, regardless of whether they pay you. Yay?

We're not trying to imress you, Rick K

You offer nothing but ad hominem spin.

Who cares about YOU!

I originally thought you were a shill, but now I see the real Rick K, megalomaniac.

[John]

Per the Times...."The construction industry has seen costs for concrete & asphalt double in one year's time"...gasoline/diesel prices are up 30% in one year....

This $450 million "estimate" is already 7 months old. So double the costs of building materials?

Let's make it a $750 million dollar stadium in "today's dollars"

But hey, the Rays will build it for $450 million....the 300 million in inflation will be absorbed by the Rays, right? LMFAO!!!

[Demetrios]

John

The Rays stated that hey would pay for all cost overruns if they have control of the building process.

To all

You can throw all the numbers around you want, but they will change over and over again. The negotiations haven't started yet. These are only ballpark figures.......so to speak.

[Dr_Dug]

Rick K..your an assclown! Can't wait for the Vote so this crap will finally get settled.... No New Waterfront..... AssClown!

[get-smart]

Finally, the Times is talking about other locations.

What's the rush? Maybe Stu has a buyer. If he can get a waterfront stadium contract this year the sweeter his deal will be; if not he will be gone before spring training. Of course he will keep the parking concession himself. Hey! It's Free Money! This guy is a leech!

Where were the mayor and city council when the Rays decided to destroy our 90 year Spring Training Tradition?

This whole project needs to go on hold now. We need first to decide if we want a new stadium. Then we need to decide where we want to put it. "On the Waterfront" is a movie not a stadium. The location decision can take 18 months.

The developer decision needs to be declared null and void. Their selection puts the city square in the middle of the mortgage meltdown. Their select proves there incompetency.

Is there anything we can do to put the city under review? This is their selection:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/60845-archstone-smith-lbo-sags-under-debt-barron-s

The city council needs to end this debacle on the next vote. They are pushing this city into bankruptcy. We need to sit this one out until the mortgage crisis passes.

Happy Father's Day To All!

-

[John]

Well, Aaron, I applaude your employer and wish to welcome the Times back to reality for today's stories about alternatives.

So, the Rays CAN'T leave, even by paying the lease off, as St. Petersburg can get a 20 year injunction from them playing anywhere but within our city limits. Kudos to the city attorney for that clause.

That fact changes everything, and explains why the Rays have not made such a threat.

Enjoy the Trop, boys, you're stuck there for at least another 10-15 years until it's paid off.

I personally hope Sternberg sells the team to someone who will actually partner with the city in seriously making this team part of the fabric of our community, instead of just raping the taxpayers to increase franchise value.

If anything, the Rays should be forced to either bring back Rays Spring training or allow another team to come in and play at Al Lang, as well as change their name to the "St. Pete Rays" before we, the taxpayers, even THINK of "giving" them a damn thing.

[since1962]

Unanswered questions about ALTERNATIVES is a start that should spur the Times to return to its proper role.
The TRAFFIC issue with Toytown is a bit ironic as I have watched downtown streets converted to a confusing maze of increasingly constricted half one way streets for the reasonable sake of business yet unreasonably with the full knowlege of this proposal.
1st Ave S is now reduced to 2 lanes leading to the proposed stadium site spilling onto the half one way streets of 1st and 2nd. yet Toytown is somehow less desireable?

[J]

I assume when you say "half one way" you mean two way streets.

1st Ave is three lanes with the 4th lane now converted to the Pinelas trail which ends directly at Al Lang.

I don't believe they are finished with the plan yet but right now 1st, 3rd and 4th streets are still one way. You may be thinking of 2nd street instead of 1st that was made two ways.

Coming to the Stadium 4 lanes of 5th ave extend the interstate almost directly to the stadium.

Leaving you have one way 2nd and 4th ave's. You also have the one way 1st to 5th to the interstate path.

The city intentionally left some one way streets to connect to the perimeter interstates but some streets are underutilized and would be better for commerce and pedestrian traffic being two way.

Originally there were not one way streets everywhere. It was a true grid system having two way traffic and street parking. One way streets were put in when no one was thinking about urban design and pedestrian traffic. They were only thinking of the car and businesses eventually suffered.

The city is trying to find a better compromise to help shops and businesses by making more two ways streets. This calms traffic and creates a better street scape for walking. Basically would you rather walk on central or 1st ave north. Already the strips along 9th street between central and 9ave have seen a drastic change in tenants and general accessibility since the change.

The traffic study that created the rationale for switching to two way accounted for events larger than Rays games occurring downtown and along the waterfront.

The change is good for the downtown. One way streets are the source of confusion and should be limited to interstate feeders. St. Pete has a great traffic system due to it's grid design allowing for multiple choices when leaving. A location such as toytown only has two choices currently on small roads. They will need to expand those roads and look at a interstate ramp with the DOT.

[Rays Mike]

Did someone actually say that they would rather have spring training or a FSL team than a Major League team in St. Pete? That is absurd..

[since1962]

J
You obviously do not live downtown as do I, Both 1st and 2nd ARE PARTIALLY converted one way/two way streets causing DAILY wrong way driving, near misses screeching tires and occasional accidents. 1st Ave S IS constricted to TWO LANES between these same confusing streets.Events held currently BEFORE consideration of additional stadium traffic require police and HOURS to empty downtown parking garages onto the FORMERLY FREE FLOWING ONE WAY TIMED SIGNALED STREETS.

[John]

Since1962

Don't forget to add the built-out Trop development with its 1900 apartments, 700 condos, 5000ish new office workers, 600 (LMAO) occupied hotel rooms and all the drivers those numbers represent adding to the downtown fun!!!

Stupid location, stupid idea.

[since1962]

Add the coincidentally named Tropicana BLOCK bordered by Central,1st Ave N, 1St & 2nd St which has approval for hundreds more condos, hotel rooms and shops CURRENTLY SERVING AS SURFACE PARKING FOR EXISTING HOTELS, BUSINESSES AND VISITORS DOWNTOWN.Plans available at the Times.

[Rays Mike]

So John, now we are going to say no to $1.2 Billion in development instead of rerouting some one=way roads? Unbelieveable...

[John]

Hey there Mik..err...Rick, did you have a nice Father's Day?

[Rays Mike]

So John - Why do you think that forcing the Rays to bring spring training back to St. Pete is better for the team or for city? Having their spring training camp in SW Florida will only increase the statewide interest in the team, resulting in greater attendance at the Trop or any future park the Rays play in St. Pete. And do you honestly think that 15 spring training games has a greater economic impact than 81 major league games?

[since1962 re rays mike]

PARTIALLY converting those roads at GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE to SLOW & TRAP ILLUSORY PROJECTED BASEBALL FANS downtown and "force" them into spending money rather than providing ample parking,navigable streets and desirable amenities is unbelievable "PLANNING" and ONE reason that St Pete would not join PINELLAS COUNTY INTELLIGENT TRAFFIC DESIGN.

[D-Ray Mike]

Try again, Since 1962, this time make it coherent...

[John]

Rick,

I never said anything about the Rays leaving. Why can't the two entities co-exist? They did before, didn't they? Yes, they did.

I'm talking about bringing back what the Rays stole from this city in an effort to bum-rush this ill-conceived, incomplete plan on the city. Even the Rays said a sail was not their 1st choice, but they "settled" on it.

You read the story today in the Times, Rick? How DARE the Times explore other alternatives, when the Rays have presented an oh-so glorious "1.2 billion dollar paired redevelopment proposal"...see Rick, I don't even have to go look for that phrase from you any longer, because you've repeated it ad-nauseum.

Oh and Rick, if the Rays spring training is in Port Charlotte, tourists will go to Port Charlotte, Englewood, Punta Gorda, and Sarasota if that was their goal, to follow the Rays or the teams they play, in the spring. Instead of coming here, like they have for decades.

you're such a nitwit sometimes. Ok, all the time.

[Rays Mike]

Alternatives need to be explored, Joanne, because myopic morons like you will probably vote down the proposal, in the name of protecting parkland that looks suspiously like a parking lot.

[John]

LOL you're right about the vote, at least. Enjoy your misery in this podunk, green bench hellhole you call home!!

[since1962 re rays mike]

of course proponents don't comprehend/support intelligent traffic as practiced throughout THE COUNTY.The BOCC holding 100 million pieces of this fantasy baseball does.

[Rays Mike]

No.. We just don't understand people who can't string a sentence together without coherency and punctuation...

[since1962 re rays mike]

DUH...
BASEBALL GOOD.
POWW BAD.

If punctuation and syntax were the primary focus then this blog would be quieter than a Rays game.
TOO RUN ON?

[Will Ferrell]

It's 3:15 a.m., do you know where your Cowbell is?

This message brought to you by Will Ferrell, and your local station.

[Observer]

Is there a bigger moron on this blog than John, who accuses every one who doesn't agree with him of either being on the Rays payroll or being the (Much lusted for) Rick K?

[Ray F]

to 1962 @ 12:06am,

Have you been to a Rays game recently???

You say quieter than a Rays game...

Maybe you should pull your head out of the sand...

Fri- 19,312
Sat- 31,195
Sun- 28,886

Those are the attendance from this weekend against the Marlins (the lowest draw in baseball).

Tuesday is near sell-out. Wed and Thurs are close as well.

Wednesday's game is going to be televised Nationwide on ESPN. Millions of baseball fans from around the country will focus on St Pete for 3 hours straight on Wednesday night.

I'm sure it won't be as quiet as you prophesize.

[Rand Moorhead]

St. Pete has reached a saturation point in development...I mean, just who is going to fill all those new residential towers, let alone the laughable affordable housing proposed for the Trop site? It's a classic "rob Peter to pay Paul" scenario. There is precedent of this happening all over the country. It happened to a degree already in St. Pete when BayWalk was opened and the
truly local businesses on Central Ave. started closing as patrons flocked to BayWalk and the corporate stores and restaurants. AND...why was an out of state design firm chosen anyway? Florida has plenty of residential developers...DUH!
MOST IMPORTANTLY....if there is ANY discussion of spending tax money on ANY public project that will have positive economic impact, THE TIME HAS COME to restore aesthetic, functional mass transit in our city and region.
Talk of a new stadium and new upscale housing is truly a luxury and is irresponsible...more on this later.

[Rick K]

Rand:

We should just impose your opinions (which I am sure you regard as being reasoned judgement) on the populace then?

This isn't Iran, dude.

[Let's ask the fans]

Why don't the Rays or the City make everyone entering the Trop for a game fill out a one question survey...and have an independent accounting firm manage and tally the results.

Question: Do you prefer the trop or would you rather attend in a new, outdoor waterfront ballpark.

A. Trop
B. New Ballpark

[Rick K says]

I would argue that the more important group to survey is people who do not currently attend Rays games.

Which is not to say that I think the opinions of current Rays fans are valueless. I just happen to think that the bigger and more important questions in this debate are how the Rays can draw people who currently do not come to games.

Just as I think the citizens of St. Pete should be asked if they would rather have 50 acres of parking or places that provide year round jobs.

And so on.