Out on the beaches

My colleague Nick Johnson reports in tomorrow's Neighborhood Times about the Rays' pitch to a small group of beach hoteliers. I got the story posted here on the jump.

ST. PETE BEACH — The Tampa Bay Rays held an informational meeting on their plans for a waterfront stadium for beach businesses and residents at the Don CeSar on Tuesday.

Despite the potential impact on tourism in the area and a possible extension in the county hotel bed tax, the turnout was unimpressive.

Michael Kalt, the Rays’ senior vice president of development and business affairs, gave a presentation to about 20 hoteliers, business owners and residents.

“The group that attended seemed very positive about the proposal,” said Robin Grabowski, president of the Tampa Bay Beaches Chamber of Commerce, which hosted the meeting.

The main question for business owners: Will the new stadium bring tourists to the beaches and is it worth extending the hotel bed tax to build it?

The county’s 5 percent hotel bed tax generated about $25-million last year and $5.36-million of that went to paying off Tropicana Field in St. Petersburg and two other sports facilities.

The Rays’ waterfront stadium plans include extending the payments they receive, set to expire in 2015, for another 25 to 30 years.

Patricia Hubbard, whose family owns Hubbard’s Marina in Johns Pass Village, was among the business owners in attendance who support the Rays’ plans.

She said sports fans are easy to pick out when they frequent the shops and restaurants at the popular tourist attraction.

“Sports do attract tourists to our area and this stadium, it’s so beautiful, it’s going to enhance all of downtown and it will pull people to this area,” Hubbard said.

Part of the Rays’ pitch included the countywide economic engine the stadium would produce in return for continued hotel bed tax dollars, but not all business owners are convinced.

“If you look at the history, we’ve become quite skeptical of the impact that baseball has had on our community. It’s not been as beneficial as it was once touted to us,” said Gregg Nicklaus, co-owner of the Sirata Beach Resort on St. Pete Beach.

While he and many fellow hoteliers support any positive development in St. Petersburg, the extension of the bed tax to help fund a $450-million stadium is met with mixed feelings, Nicklaus said.

“The Rays’ success brings so much to our community,” he said, but still the question remains: “Can you justify spending those kinds of dollars for those infrastructure improvements?”

Comments

[Observer]

Thanks for another great slice of this fascinating story, Aaron. Please thank Mr. Johnson from all of us, too.

[John]

LMFAO!!!!

The Rays hold a meeting at the Don, and only 20 people show up....ROFL!!!

Could it be because everyone else has already made up their minds???

Nicklaus is a very influencial player on St. Pete Beach, and he's quite good friends with the TDC board...

Between this and the Hines "smackdown", the wheels are starting to come off the wagon.

[since1962]

The realistic forecast presented during the first half of the TDC meeting and the fact that HIGH END RESORTS are now rebating excess airline baggage charges to the affluent are undeniable indicators of the trends for the SINGLE largest economic engine we have in Pinellas.
We must remain competitive and stop the "let the TOURISTS pay for it" mantra that may stall the engine.
Tourists have HUNDREDS of miles of beaches and multiple communites NEARBY vieing for their business.
Years ago I worked at a resort and you would be surprised how many guests commented on the tax although the room rates were quite high.

[John]

I just wonder how many snowbirds our south county beaches will lose next year to the Port Charlotte area, thanks to the Rays stealing Spring Training from all of us after 90 years.

[Rays Mike]

The vast majority of those who actually showed up for Rays Spring Training (the Rays were 29th of 30 teams in Spring Training attendance -under 5,000 a game) were locals following their hometown team. I'm not sure how you can argue that spring training is great for tourism, but actual major league games in a nicer park on the same site would hurt it...

[Yay to Rays Mike]

Rays Mike at 7:19 brilliantly points out an inescapable contradiction by the POWW forces

[Average Age: 81]

[Clear Direction]

Well Mike,

Because the proposed Stadium is 34,000 not 6000 capacity.

The existing Al Lang Field is 57' tall and the fixed portion of the proposed stadium is 200' tall 350% taller.

people from the north are eager to come to florida in the spring to escape the cold weather ( not so much in the summer).

Spring training games are far fewer than the 81 game regular season.

And Last but not least,
The trop works!

[John]

Yeah, you're right Rays Mike.

Dunedin & Clearwater get ZERO tourists/snowbirds from their Spring Training Operations either.

St. Pete never got any Cards fans, either....

Never EVER see any New Yorkers here in the Spring at Legends Field, either.

Heck, come to think of it, I hardly EVER used to see a New York or Ontario license plate around here in the spring.

[Rays Mike]

Actually, the Rays saved Spring Training in St. Pete for an extra 10 years. The Cardinals bailed on St. Pete the year that the Rays started play, and rather than try to expand their fanbase (or just Vince Namoli's cheapness) they became the first team in 70 years to hve Spring Training in their home city.

[That is not enough]

John is ignoring Rays Mike's point. How can Spring Training attract people and be good, while regular season games do not. Mike didn't say NO ONE comes from the North to games at AL Lang, but he did point out the glaring contradicition in POWW arguments.

[John]

Wrong again, Mike

The Cards were forced to leave by the Rays (Namoli) who didn't want any competition for fan base. Part of the agreement to secure a team was that the Cards had to go, in lieu of the Rays.

Nice try, though.

[John]

I'm not ignoring anything Rick

We have a ballpark for Spring Training and we have one for the Rays. (And this is the way it will stay).

The Rays VACATED AL Lang in the name of 'building our fan base" in the ridiculously small Port Charlotte market only so they could free up the Al Lang site for themselves.

Greed greed greed.

[Rays Mike]

You are proving my point, John. People from Phily and Toronto fans DO come down to Clearwater and Dunedin from Spring Training. Nobody came to St. Pete from up north to see the Rays. New Yorkers and Bostonians who might not come down now to go to the perceived dump of a dome would be more likely to come down for a weekend to see their teams in a waterfront setting - and in summer months when there are more occupanies int he hotels then in the winter/spring...

[Thomas]

"How can Spring Training attract people and be good, while regular season games do not."

Ask Arizona. They have mass amounts of people come into town for Cactus League, but the DBacks don't draw anyone from outside the area.

There is not going to be a mad rush of people travelling ot St.Pete just to see the new stadium. The same "baseball tourists" that come to the Trop now will still come. But that's it.

Trying to sell the plan because it would "bring people to St. Pete" is just plain stupid.

[Rays Mike]

And this is the point where John, without anything to counter, has to resort to calling me Rick, or makes some inane bet that nobody cares about...

[Thomas]

"New Yorkers and Bostonians who might not come down now to go to the perceived dump of a dome would be more likely to come down for a weekend to see their teams in a waterfront setting."

Um, no. Nice try.

[Or me]

I know Rick K is at the Trop right now. Which makes it even more amusing when they say he is here posting.

[Thomas]

I dont think it's dawned on Rays Mike that if the Boston and NY fans are already selling out the Trop for their games now, AND the new stadium has fewer seats - THEN utlimately less people from the NorthEast will travel to St. Pete because they won't be able to get tickets, WHICH was the point of them being "baseball tourists" to begin with.

Congrats Mike, that was the most backwards support for the plan I've seen yet.

[Nice try]

Thomas, keep selling that spittle. Somewhere you have received feedback that someone wants to buy it. So keep right on pedalin'.

None of us are buying your childish attempts to convince us that you think you are clever and have answers and the likes of Gary, Ray, Rays Mike, Chuck, Rick K and others are ignorant fools.

[Rays Mike]

John - The FSL St. Pete Cardinals had to move when the Rays started, although they were compensated by the Rays because it was technically SP Cardinals territory. The SL Cardinals voluntarily moved out of St. Pete. Think about it. If Vince wanted exclusivity, the Blue Jays, Cards, Yanks, White Sox would all be on the East Coast or in Arizona..

The D-Backs have spring training in Tucson - 116 miles away - further than the distance from St. Pete to Pt. Charlotte..

And from a personal perspective, I have traveled to Pittsburg, Cleveland, and Baltimore - just to see their new parks..

[Rays Mike]

I think Thomas is confusing the bandwagonning local Sox and Yankees fans with the ones who are actually from the northeast who travel down for a series...

[since1962]

The focus of the story AND this thread should be EXTENSION of the BED TAX which the HOTELS in THIS COUNTY collect for this STADIUM PROPOSAL WHICH GARNERED "UNIMPRESSIVE" TURNOUT.

NOT the weather
NOT spring training
NOT baseball history
Not your encyclopedic knowledge of OTHER teams stats and personalities.

THE BED TAX EXTENSION "HERE"

IS IT WORTWHILE AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER NEEDS?

[Rays Mike]

I don't have the exact numbers or quote in front of me, but Rays have said that they wouldn't need all of their penny of the bed tax throughout the life of the extension. But of course, none of you trust govt or big city slicker carpetbagging New Yorkers...

[Micah Mills]

No taxes needed if we move the dome. Just a AAA membership for $40 for the year and we're all set. I'll even pay for it!

movethedome.com

[Get Smarter]

John is pissed about losing 8 games of spring training so that gives him reasoning to get back at the Rays and lose 81 games of MLB.

It's not payback if it hurts your own community. Get off the owners and do what best for the community...keeping baseball here for the next generation.

Revenge is not the answer.

[Get Smarter]

Tampa collects bed tax for the Yankees, Buc's and lightning. I don't here any complaints over there.

Pinellas collects bed tax 75% for the beaches re-nourishment and 25% for our only professional team the Rays

So you would rather have more sand than baseball. Do you actually think they will lower the bed tax 25 percent when the Rays leave or that would make any difference in hotel usage.

Why are you worried about the beaches or the rest of Pinellas. Be selfish, this is for St. Pete.

[Thomas]

You should get smarter,

The Rays aren't going anywhere. The public doesn't have to pay to build a stadium.

The Rays will be at the Trop for the next 19 years - ask a city attorney.

[Thomas]

"The Rays must play baseball in St. Petersburg for 19 more years, says city attorney John Wolfe. It's not a lease breakable by buckets of money, he says. It's a contractual promise enforceable by injunction"

See - nothing to worry about. Not going anywhere.

[Don in St. Pete]

Rays Mike and the rest of the bloggers with their heads up their nether regions, I have talked to over 100 people who will not be renewing their season tickets if the Rays build an open outdoor stadium. I have spoken to nobody amongst the thousands of people I converse with who's said, " oh yeah, if the build an open air ballpark I'll be there". You guys need to realize this proposal will kill the Rays if it's approved, but thank god that won't happen.

[Get Smarter]

You've got to be joking if you think they will be here another 19 years in the Trop.

[Get Smarter]

Don, So you've talked to "thousands" of people. Unless your running for president you are full of it. No one talks to Thousands of people. Are you going door to door or taking polls of everyone leaving the Trop. Your exaggeration is laughable.

I've talked to millions who have said they aren't buying season tickets until the Rays move to the waterfront!!!!

[Get Smarter]

Sorry I'm having a hard time blogging right now while I'm conversing with my ttttthousands no mmmillions of friends about the Rays downfall.

Rays beat the Cubs 3-2
Yeah kick those losers out, right Don

[Chuck Norris]

Even Chuck Norris is against this.

[Don in St. Pete]

Get Smarter, obviously you haven't taken the advice your own name implies. Unlike yourself whose only cultural interaction is probably the Rays games, I do lots of stuff and get to meet and talk to people from many different walks of life and many different political views. Don't sell yourself short man, eventually you'll be able to form a full sentence in front of a group of people.

[Thomas]

Get Smarter - when you say: "You've got to be joking if you think they will be here another 19 years in the Trop."

Are you suggesting that you know more about the lease and it's legality than the City Attorney? Is that what you're trying to say?

[Getting Smarter]

Ahhh thats cute Don. Maybe Tom Peters and Michael Abrashoff will have you come give a speaking seminar on their next book tours.

Ouch and Don sends a uppercut to my cultural awareness. I suppose whether I know how to transpose music, write four part harmonies, or list the impressionist in alphabetical order that will make a difference in my analysis of the socioeconomic and urban renewal merits of this proposal.

Have a point, make some type of argument, poke holes in others statements but try not to throw outlandish statements about the thousands of people you've talked to.

[Getting Smarter]

Leases are broken every day. If the city can not prove damages because some other city has paid the outstanding balance on the Lease they have little to stand on. If they go through with the injunction they tie up the Rays and themselves. No one gets paid and the city can't develop the land until it's settled. I'm not a Lawyer and don't claim to be but there is more to a contract than the words alone, they must be backed up with cases which set precedence and the city most be willing to live with the effects of exercising it's rights under the lease.

You can bet that this would be a battle of the City against not just thee Rays but MLB. Thats way too many lawyers in a room.

[Thomas]

So the answer to the question is "YES- You do think you know more than the City Attorney".

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the City Attorney knows what he's talking about and you don't.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

I truly respect the anti's who try to make seemingly valid points..Rick..the two Mikes...but really guys reread some of these threads and you'll begin to pick up some real contradictions.
Let's begin with..the Rays ownership has been upfront and done only what they've promised they'd do...followed by "You can bet that this would be a battle of the City against not just thee Rays but MLB." Stu Sternberg is on the record a saying the Rays will not demand a new stadium. So which is it guys...am I to believe Sternberg is a man of his word or "Leases are broken every day."
On one hand I've heard the anti's defend city staff over and over again as always getting things right...so which is it.."The Rays must play baseball in St. Petersburg for 19 more years, says city attorney John Wolfe"
...or..."You've got to be joking if you think they will be here another 19 years in the Trop."
So am I to trust Mr. Sternberg or believe he is doing this as a Machiavellian ploy to leave town? Am I to feel confident about city staff or believe Mr. Wolfe doesn't know what he is talking about.
Most of all..am I to trust projections on a deal spearheaded by a man, Michael Kalt, who has a record of abysmal failure at making projections in his own home town. See infrastructure overuns...and a request for an addtional 350 million dollars for Yankee stadium. Again..NOT ONE STADIUM has come in as projected!

[Getting Smarter]

I never said the statements that you say I'm contradicting. If you want to lump all bloggers together you will find many contradictions on both sides.

They haven't threatened leaving because they are confident in their plan and don't want to seem like they are strong arming the city. Kalt hasn't been directly forced to answer the question. What happens if this falls through. If he has I haven't read it. Stu has said that they are proposing a new stadium only once so you fill in the blanks.

[Demetrios]

atruly........

Comparing apples to oranges when you bring up the Yankees project. The Rays stated they would pay for overruns if they had control of the building process.

[Ray F]

truly...,

If you're getting thrown through a loop over a blog, you may need help.

These blogs have nothing to do with the outcome of this proposal. The people who post here constantly haven't changed their overall views of the way they're going to vote if they get to vote.

If the City Council actually puts 2 thoughts into making a decision based on the posters on this blog, they need to be voted out regardless of how they vote.

This blog is full of people with their own opinions for and against and as people with opinions, they are going to present facts or speculation that supports their opinions from both sides.

It's all rhetorical b/s.

Nothing anyone says here would change my view on the stadium; just like no one will change your view on it. Some people just need more solid answers but that won't come from a blog... it's going to be in the story at the top of the blog... Then those answers are going to get spun in every direction possible by us.

It will go on and on and on. That's the soul of rhetoric. Read Aristotle's Art of Rhetoric and you'll understand better.

[The Real Rick K (with DNA to prove it)]

A Truly Concerned:

I think many of us may from time to time offer thoughts that seem to (or actually do) contradict our previous posts.

I know I try to avoid it.

And when I discover a glaring contradiction, It sticks out.

Take, for example, the recurring assertion by many on the ANTI side that the City Staff does not know what they are doing. They cannot be trusted. The fix is in.

They cite all sorts of "evidence" that they say proves their contention that the City staff is not to be believed. Ignorev for a minute the true problem that a lot of their evidence is often proven to be wrong, and just focus on their consistent position that the City is not to be believed.

City staff speaks about Environmental remediation at the Trop, and the ANTI's say, "Don't you believe the City!"

City staff publishes financial projections of property and sales taxes (which are evidence of careful study and adjustment of the numbers submitted by potential developers) and ANTI's say, "Don't you believe the City!"

For nearly everything the City staff says, the ANTI's are right there telling us "Don't you believe the City!"

Then along comes an attorney for the City who offers what is obviously a professional OPINION about the current Trop lease's long term ties between the Rays and their current stadium.

These very same ANTI's who have been telling us ""Don't you believe the City!" are NOW saying, "See, the City says it, therefore it MUST be true."

That is as absurd as it gets, in my opinion.

[since1962re R]

Unlike this blog, a clear un "chattered" record exists WHICH WILL BE EXAMINED IN COURT IF NECESSARY.

Hines may or may not challenge but at least ONE of the 930,000 county residents will BASED ON THE AVAILABLE PUBLIC RECORD ALONE!