Rays alter stadium design slightly

ST. PETERSBURG — The Tampa Bay Rays have slightly altered their plans for a $450-million waterfront stadium, according to new documents released by the city on Monday.

View the documents here.

The changes come in response to concerns raised by city officials about the design of the 34,000-seat ballpark. They include:

• Moving team office and retail space from a parking lot at the Mahaffey Theater to land near First Street and First Avenue N.

• Building a 240-space parking garage underneath parkland proposed at the northern edge of the stadium. The spaces will be for players and staff. The Rays say they will address the city’s general parking concerns in a separate response.

• Accommodating the Honda Grand Prix of St. Petersburg, including adding space for the course to pass through on the east and west sides of the stadium.

City officials said Monday they have not yet reviewed the Rays’ response.

The Rays’ report also included research suggesting a performing arts center like the Mahaffey Theater actually benefits from Major League Baseball. The Rays used other Major League cities to make their case.

Comments

[Ray F]

Great find Aaron. Keep up the good work.

I still can't see why people think this is bad for the city. Maybe I'm blind, but, this park looks like it would be the envy of all Major League Baseball.

I offered an observation yesterday that the people who provide links to studies that show little or no economic impact of stadiums on economies of their cities fail to acknowledge that none of those studies address the fact that 86 acres of prime real estate would be back on the tax rolls.

Anyone care to find a link that shows how 86 acres of city land being back on the tax rolls is a bad thing???

[Jason]

Thats a great point Ray.. I'm sure there will be some ridiculous reason why it ends up not being a great point by the end of the day.. but good thinking man.

[Jason]

Thats a great point Ray.. I'm sure there will be some ridiculous reason why it ends up not being a great point by the end of the day.. but good thinking man.

[Professor]

Aaron, great work. I found the last two attachments especially helpful.

Ray, you make an excellent point as well. There are no studies which point out that adding a mall like International Mall, two hotels like the Rennaisance International Hotel and a Hampton Inn, and residences for a few thousand people will lead to nerative results. Also, no one is seeking studies which show how much Al Lang currently costs the city in potential lost revenue.

[Ray F]

~~~~chicka chicka chicka~~~~

Victory dance....

Riding the bull, feelin it.

I'm sure someone will shoot my observation down at some point today. There is no changing the minds of people with strong convictions and I accept that, but the observation should be weighed upon by those who are on the fence still and need more positives.

[Keith]

Ray: Good point. Also, the studies that opponents DO cite are flawed (mainly because they are written by people who approach the studies with an anti-ballpark agenda). These biased studies look at whether per capita income goes up in a region after a new ballpark is built. I don't think anyone would argue that a new ballpark will lead to higher salaries for EVERYONE. What most WOULD argue is that a new well-planned ballpark will have a positive impact on the real estate tax base, surrounding businesses, new development, and jobs (temp. construction and permanent). The studies DO NOT deny this reality. A new ballpark on the Al Lang site together with a redeveloped Trop site is a no-brainer win-win for the city, county, and tax payers. That's why POWW and other opponents rely so heavily on misinformation (as they expressly admitted in this newspaper) -- the facts are simply not on their side. If these completely unaccountable, narrow-minded, elitist, self-interested POWW people somehow manage to mislead the voters into rejecting this proposal, it'll be tragic for the city and the entire region.

[PS]

A new ball park will lead to higher salaries for EVERYONE? That's a new one!

These same promises where made over a decade ago, and never came to fruition. Why does anyone think they will come true now?

You want an actual study? Look at Central Ave around the Trop. See all the new hotels and retail there? Neither do I!

[Ray F]

I agree Keith. 100% percent. Very well put.

[Ray F]

PS,

Read the post better. He said that nobody would argue that.

May want to switch to a stronger prescription.

[Kyle]

The facts aren't on POWW's side, but it sure looks like the numbers are. Boy it is hot today.

[Ray F]

Typical-

Who needs facts when you can play your flute louder and get all the rats marching right along?

That's got to be the dumbest argument I've ever heard...

"We may not be right, but more people believe us." rediculous. Kyle, you just lowered the bar for everyone.

[Rick K]

PS. It is not a new one that REDEVELOPING THE TROP FIELD SITE will increase local payroll, local taxes, and the amount spent downtown.

No one disputes this. Some try to pretend that the ballpark leads to no jobs, no spending, and no increased taxes, but that fantasy is a whole nother issue.

PS, you are missing the biggest fact, staring you right in the face.

WE who like these two pronged redevelopment proposals AGREE that the Trop never lived up to its potential to create economic spillover. That is PRECISELY why we are in favor of tearing the TROP down and replacing it with a mall, and new housing, and new offices, and new parks.

We are certain these new uses will be better than the current econmic output from the Trop.

As you point out, there aren't thriving business around the Trop.

These proposals aim to FIX that reality.

[LOL @ Rick K]

Rick K, your argument is baseless, and silly.

[PS]

Rick K,
Hate to sound like a cliche, but isn't that how one defines insanity? Do the same thing over and expect different results?

[Ray F]

in·san·i·ty-

1: a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)

2: such unsoundness of mind or lack of understanding as prevents one from having the mental capacity required by law to enter into a particular relationship, status, or transaction or as removes one from criminal or civil responsibility

3
a: extreme folly or unreasonableness b: something utterly foolish or unreasonable

Maybe I'm not reading correctly, but Websters doesn't mention anything about repeating something in their definition of insanity.

I think, maybe, you wanted to refer to the cliche that says "If at first, you don't succeed- try, and try again."

Nothing wrong with that. If trying over was insane, and I lived my life by the virtue of insanity, I would never have met my wife because after it didn't last with my 5th grade "girlfriend", I should've stopped trying lest I be labled insane.

[PS]

Rick K,

So what's keeping developers from building around the Trop now and add to the tax base?

[Kyle]

Ray, how did the bar lower from stating 2 obvious truths. I am a fence rider Ray.

[Ray F]

based on your comment about how POWW has no facts but they have the numbers is how the bar was lowered.

the fact that it's hot isn't relevant because it's Florida and last I checked- Florida is hot.

[Rick K]

PS, you really aren't paying attention if you think these paired redevelopment proposals represent doing the same thing as was tried before.

Let's review.

The current Trop Field site was originally occupied by a blighted neighborhood and a vacant gas plant. One of the city's objectives in selecting the current site was to let the adjacent neighborhood experience "urban renewal."

Like a majority of urban renewal projects from that era, it didn't work as planned. The city built what they thought was a venue that would immediately attract a Major League Baseball team, whose presence would spur a revival of the immediate neighborhood, help stimulate downtown development, and serve as a catalyst for tourism and job growth in the region.

The city built the TROP without even having a tenant.

They essentially designed a suburban stadium surrounded by acres and acres and acres of surface parking.

Prior to baseball, the Trop was home to the Tampa Bay Lightning and the Tampa Bay Storm. Both these teams provided small boosts to tourism, along with a relative handful of jobs.

Once a baseball tenant was secured for the Trop, the first thing they did was declare the stadium unsuitable for Major League baseball. Millions of dollars were spent upgrading the (very new, but already obsolete) ballpark to accomodate Major League baseball.

A decade passed. The Rays certainally impacted downtown development and regional tourism, but the specific hopes of many with respect to neighborhood revitalization never materialized as planned.

The Rays recently passed into new ownership, who assessed the Trop three years ago and decided that it was not suitable. They spent about $85,000,000 updating the stadium.

As part of the business analysis preceding that investment (by the Rays), the Rays determined that the existing Trop site would soon be virtually obsolete for what they envisioned the Rays offering their fans in the years 2012 and beyond.

Another part of the Rays' history in St. Pete was their continuing use (first for their Rookie league team, and later just for Spring Training) of the decades old historical Al Lang field site downtown. Because economic realities taught the Rays it didn't make sense to have their rookie league team in the same town as their big league team, they moved the minor league affiliate away, relegating Al Lang to being used only 15 days a year, on average.

This, despite being situated on a beautiful parcel of land that is part of a fantastic, but greatly underutilized beltway of community amenities on the waterfront.

So, we have an inadequate ballpark (the Trop) which the tenants did not like, and which, because of it's improper design, never managed to stimulate adjacent neighborhood development as had been imagined.

We also have a ridiculously underutilized downtown baseball stadium only 12 blocks from the Trop.

NO ONE is proposing that we duplicate these failures.

INSTEAD, PS, what is being proposed today is to FIX the mistakes of the past and improve our city.

We are going to tear down the ill-designed Trop and tear up the acres and acres and acres of parking lots. In their place, private developers will invest hundreds of millions of dollars in building new residences, parks, offices, retail, restaurants, and so on. Most all of this land will go back on the tax rolls and we will FINALLY get the economic development the original Trop schemers wanted.

See, PS, we aren't repeating the mistakes of the past, we are correcting them.

We are also going to correct the situation of trying to force our largest and most visible City tenant to play in a facility they don't find maximally desirable. We'll also get an improved downtown waterfront that draws millions of people to parts of the city that are now visited by people that can be counted on our fingers and toes!

Along with all of this, we will build an environmentally sustainable ballpark (the first LEED certified baseball stadium in the Major Leagues) and adding a signature identity to downtown, which can't help but increase the marketability of the region to tourists.

[mlm]

This is what it boils down to; Tropicana Field is a place where games are played, just like Raymond James. The Forum is a destination. Go to SoHo or Channelside after a Lightning game. They are packed with jerseys and hats for the home team. That's what the Rays want. Old people in St. Pete? Not so much.

[Steve Lange]

Anyone know of any underground anything in St. Pete let alone a two acre, 240 space parking garage, below grade, next to a sea wall where the water table is about three feet down?

Am I missing something or will the ramps leading down below grade into the parking structure, during severe storms, and yes hurricanes, turn this parking structure into a swimming pool.

Besides the Rays already told us this two acre plot of land was to be a new shining city park, or was that the home of 300,000 gallons of storm water retention or was it the handicap drop off and pick up staging area or was in the plaza courtyard the City stated needed to be built, or was it the home of the foundation supports for securing the 320' high masthead guy wires which supports the fabric roof?

I don't know. My head is swirling. So many options, so many weekly choices offered by the Rays PR machine.

I wonder if this underground parking structure is to be drawn neatly on their next set of proposal drawings for us all to see?

Or, is this just this weeks rope a dope distraction by the Rays's to keep us all distracted from the real issues at hand. Which is as I hear it, is putting out thousands and thousands more of those little red signs Stu and Matt love so much.

I don't know it is all so confusing.

Who knows?

This whole Rays thing, the way they dribble information out, the way they have disrespected an entire community, the way that they have lied and scamed to date. It is all just to too much.

Gotta go.

Time to fill my trunk with some more little red signs and head out to the south and west sides of St. Pete. Those folks are clamoring for signs. It is almost more work than I can handle.

Hey Stu, Matt, what are you guys doing later this aftenoon? Can you possilby give me a hand?

[NOT Steve]

No, Steve, Stu and Matt can't help. They are busy meeting with business leaders from Pasco and Manatee counties, respectively.

Steve, if you are in fact driving your truck on public streets, I hope you don't get pulled over. Cuz, based on what you've posted lately, it doesn't look like you could pass the field test.

[PS]

Rick K,
I appreciate your arguments. I guess we have two basic disagreements.

1. I disagree that downtown needs the Rays to "progress."

2. If the Rays want a new stadium, build one adjacent to the Trop and replace the Trop with new retail and housing. Everybody wins, right?

[Otta D. Blue]

Judging from the fan attendance, St.Pete doesn't even need to have the Tropicana stadium.
It appears that on most game nights, Al Lang would accommodate the actual paying fans.
Welcome to "the big league" St.Pete!
How's that workin' out for ya?

[Leroy Jenkins]

I found this website a couple of seconds ago. Very interesting. Nowhere did it say anything about our wonderful waterfront parks.
http://www.answers.com/topic/saint-petersburg-florida?cat=travel

[Matt]

Great post Rick K. Downtown St. Pete is going thru a major redevelopment and is vastly trying to improve its image as a major metropolitian center. People only need to check out the Downtown Development site on this website (http://stpeteshines.stpete.org/) to see what is in the works. Those high-rises aren't cheap. They are meant to cater to the yuppies and professionals. These people will flock to the new waterfront stadium bringing in tax revenue. This process is in the works, people, you can't fight it.

If you want proof of what the new stadium can do, just look at the emptiness that is the "Million Dollar Pier". A new stadium will bring people downtown and keep them downtown and will help the Pier (a major tax revenue source) get back in business.

Vote "Yes" on the new Stadium. Don't let just the St. Pete people vote on this, let all of Pinellas County vote and watch St. Pete really become a sister city to Tampa.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Matt you link goes nowhere.

[Rick K]

PS, I appreciate your thoughts, as well.

I do not think this is a question of 'need.' I think the City and Region will progress with or without these proposals. I frame the question in terms of which of several possible alternative futures is best for the City/County/Region.

The alternative proposal you have suggested is not as good as the twin redevelopment projects proposed by the Rays. Redeveloping Al Lang into something that will bring more people to the waterfront WHILE also providing an iconic image to market the city is BRILLIANT.

And the Trop will get suckier each year.

PS, this region is blessed. We have world class beaches, ideal climate, a world class airport, low taxes (relative to most other tourist destinations), 2 world class sports venues (Raymond James and the Ice Palace), affordable lodging, and loads of recreatonal opportunities.

We have before us a once-in-a-generation opportunity to voluntarily make transformative changes to our community, which will, when finished, add a WORLD CLASS system of waterfront amenities adjacent to a vibrant urban downtown to the great mix of regional assets which attract tourists.

I say we're foolish to settle for some second rate alternative when the top option is doable.

[Matt]

Leroy, just type in the address minus the ) at the end and it will work. I messed up the hyperlink.

www.stpeteshines.stpete.org

[Chris]

St Pete has a long, storied baseball history and nearly all of it was predicated on tourism business during the springtime.

Combine tourism related discretionary spending and springtime temperatures and average rainfall on Florida's west coast and you have a combination so winning that even POWW will buy a ticket.

Shift that play forward three months and 25 degrees Fahrenheit and expect a community with average household income the likes of those within a 30 minute drive of downtown St Pete, and you have a very different recipe. Much of the 30 minute radius is water. Many seasonal residents(who skew the median income higher) are out of state during the majority of baseball season.

I think Trop attendance is a strong statement that this community doesn't wish to support a MLB team in the manner to which Sternberg believes is warranted - not in the Trop and not on Beach Drive

[Matt]

Let me try this one last time. The website is called St. Petersburg Shines. There is no "www" in front. It is just http://stpeteshines.stpete.org

Hope this one works. If not, I give up. :-)

[tunamanz]

Just think of the positive impact building a new stadium, redevloping the old stadium, and building out the port of St Pete to be a "Seattle Pike Street Market" type facility would have on the city. St. Pete would be filled with visitors year round and would be a wonderful vacation destination. Wake up people...St Pete is on the rise and why would anyone want to hold the city back. In a time when most places are not growing at all St Pete has a chance to excel! Move forward with the stadium, redevelopment, and the port build out.

There should also be large ferries that go from Channelside, Apollo Beach Area, and Bradenton area to port of St Pete. This would allow those other ports to experience economic growth too and share in the wealth of having a major league baseball team in town.

Everyone knows that the first stadium was a bust and nobody is denying that, but get over it and move on. The previous owners made a lot of mistakes too and nobody is denying that either, but get over it and respect what the new owners are doing. Everything they have done since taking over has been positive.

I drive 40 minutes to go from St Pete to Tampa to go to Lightning and Bucs games. Why the hell is there a problem with everyone that lives on the Tampa side driving to St Pete for the Rays. When I lived in Michigan we drove 2 hours each way to see the Tigers, Lions and Wings and never once complained. Sorry the Rays can't cater to you and send you a private limo to take you to the game. Stop being lazy and go support the Rays.

Bottom line is no stadium, no Rays! Then we can all hear you complain about driving to Miami for a game!

[Thomas]

"I still can't see why people think this is bad for the city."

The plan is not bad for the city - the proposal is bad for the city.

Redeveloping the Trop site would be great. Getting a new stadium would be great. But the details of the Rays proposal makes it bad for the city.
The public puts up too much money and takes too much risk. The Rays don't put up enough money. We don't have the lease terms from the team yet, so we cannot say the Rays are making a good faith effort there either.

The only thing we know is the Rays want to take, take, take.
They want the Trop redevelopment money, they want parking revenue, they want the bed tax, they want, want want. Yet they give nothing back.

That's why people think it's bad for the city.

The Rays could gain a lot of support if they stepped up and made a fair deal instead of trying to pillage the tax payers under the guise of "improving the city".

[Dave in St Pete]

Hey Matt,

I love it. One of the links at the bottom of that page you linked to goes to the Grand Bohemian condo complex. Here is a quote from their site.

"For the sports enthusiast, St. Petersburg is located across the bay from four professional sports teams: the Tampa Bay Devil Rays (MLB), Buccaneers (NFL), Lightning (NHL), and Storm (AFL)."

The Devil Rays 'across the bay from St Petersburg'. Fine by me, take them Tampa.

[Matt]

Excellent idea about the ferries, tunamanz!!!! "Rays Across the Bay" Cruises. I love it. How long would it take to cross the bay by boat?

[PS]

Rick K,
While your "top option" is certainly doable, the dollars being batted about (punny, huh?) are purely speculative and many questions need to be answered before anyone can evaluate whether its a net gain for the city.

[Matt]

Thomas,

Have you read the proposal? As I understand it, the taxes that the Rays would be using is called the "Bed tax" which is a tax ON TOURISTS who stay in local hotels, etc. I'm no tax accountant, but that seems to me that tourists will be the ones that fit the bill for the new stadium, and not the tax payers, unless of course you stay in hotels here in the area. How are local taxpayers being pillaged? The only ones being pillaged are tourists, and they are coming here anyways.

How are the Rays not putting up enough money? They are paying for a third of the entire project, developers of the Trop are paying for part, tourists are paying for part, and the only part we taxpayers will pay for is with the parking money that is generated on game day.

As for attendance, with all of the new condos and high-rises that are being built by the time the new stadium is finished, there will be tons more "yuppies" here to fill up the new stadium.

Just my two cents.

[Rick K]

PS, you may think these numbers are "purely speculative." That is fine.

My experience teaches me otherwise. I can, based on the broad strokes that have been revealed thus far, evaluate whether these deals will result in a net gain for the City.

Obviously, there are assumptions in my analysis.

Interesting, based upon my calculations of the gains for the City, we could invest about $2 Billion all together before it becomes a push financially (in which case we would still have the non-financial benefits of the deals).

I am pretty confident that the amount invested in the new stadium site will not approach 2 Billion.

Thomas characterization is way, way off.

The Rays are offering the City/County a deal that is better for the City and County than the existing Trop Deal. It is also better for the public than every other public (big league) stadium deal in the state of Florida.

Thomas uses "funny accounting" to pretend that the Rays aren't stroking a check for $150,000,000. He also ignores the almost $1.5 BILLION the team will spend over the next 25 years.

Thomas wants us to pretend this is about a net loss to the citizens of St. Pete and Pinellas County, in order to enrich the owners of the Rays, with no other significant benefits to the city and region.

We cannot pretend that. This isn't a POWW conference, it is a community discussion. We know that the redevelopment of the Trop site (after the Trop is torn down) will be a great boost to the community in ways both financial and non-financial. We also can easily calculate a reasonable range of likely tax revenues from these developments. When we do that, the conclusions are obvious.

The ANTI's really, really, really WANT the numbers to add up to a NEGATIVE sum. But they don't. And they most likely won't.

[Thomas]

Matt,

There are only two things that increase attendance for a significant period of time: Winning or being the Chicago Cubs.

The new ballpark and surrounding development will create a one year spike in attendance then the market will correct itself back to the original level of attendance.
This has been proven time and time again in MLB.

[Thomas]

Rick says: "My experience teaches me otherwise. I can, based on the broad strokes that have been revealed thus far, evaluate whether these deals will result in a net gain for the City."

I stopped reading and started laughing when I got to that part.

You have no credibility, no accountability, and no accuracy. Anything you say on this topic is null and void.

[Matt]

Ummm, Thomas, I know winning helps drive attendance. Have you checked the standings? I know it is only one half of one year, but this team will be winning for a long time. So the attendance will come.

Also, by attracting the young urban professionals with the development that St. Pete is ALREADY DOING, you will have a larger population to pull attendance from.

But what we are talking about is how the stadium will affect the area as a whole.

But the horse is dead, I can't beat it anymore. Your mind is already made up.

By the way, are you even a baseball fan?

[Thomas]

I'm a diehard fan.

[Matt]

Thomas, what is your "crediability" or accountability?

Rick has as much right to post his "facts" as you.

[Thomas]

Matt, for more details on Rick K and his lack of integrity, check out previous blogs:

Start here:
http://blogs.tampabay.com/ballpark/2008/05/so-i-went-for-a.html

May 22, 7:49p is a particularly good example.

[RUss]

The TOYTOWN location is BIGGER and cheaper (no CREATING land where water is now). Plus BOTH stadium sites could be back on the tax rolls. AND it's more centralized.

[tunamanz]

And if you build it at the TOYTOWN location people from the other side of the bridge still won't come. So build it downtown on the water and let the people that do go to the games enjoy a waterfront stadium.

[John]

I hate baseball. How ya like that?

[Matt]

Thomas,

Interesting read. Thanks for posting that.

My question to you is what is your beef (in summary form, I have a short attention span) with the proposal?

I like the idea, I would support it but I live in Largo, so my opinion won't matter come November.

[Ray F]

Wow, John... why such violence???

[Thomas]

Developers:

- Redevelopment projections of new taxes generated are overstated.

- Redevelopment projections for sales taxes fail to account for displaced spending.

- Redevelopment proposals fail to account for new city costs for police, fire, etc requirements at new developement.

Rays:

- Rays use a powerpoint as a "financing proposal"

- Define redevelopment of public property at Trop as "private contribution"

- Parking Revenue details not provided

- Lease Term Sheet details not provided

- Beginning 2017 using money generated at the Trop site to pay off new stadium construction debt.

[Boomer]

I saw a cool website with an alternative to the two being discussed thus far: www.movethedome.com

Seems pretty logical....

[Thomas]

Matt,

Also, please note that Rick K never even acknowledged - let alone corrected - his mulitple inaccuracies and invalid assertions on that thread.

Hence, Rick has been glossed as the "Ultimate ANTI"

Anti-credibility
Anti-accuracy
Anti-accountability
Anti-integrity

[Rick K]

No offense at your joke boomer, but that is one of the WORST ideas I've ever heard.

[Boomer]

Rick,

It actually solves most of the disagreements about the stadium.

It would put a stadium on the water without any cost to taxpayers. Who would say no to that? It would only require a $40 annual membership with AAA where the first 5 miles of towing is free. It is all about compromise and seems like the obvious choice.

[Rick K]

Thomas, you are sadly, shamefully delusional.

Rick K gets loads of email from people on this site, as well as many public comments applauding his posts here.

You and a handful of delusional idiots are the only ones who thinks that Rick has made incorrect or invalid assertions.

Your description of Rick is laughable and unimportant. I reply to it because you are under the mistaken impression that I am afraid to reply to your silly, insanely inane posts.

Thomas, you have demonstrated a propensity for idiocy exceeded by only GetSmart. You made a RIDICULOUS claim that you asserted Proved that the last Super Bowl in Tampa did not generate a $300,000,000 impact upon the regions' economy.

When your faulty analysis was shredded, you moved on to silly analysis of taxation in Pinellas. At one point, you talked about a 6 % tax. Later, you switched to a 7 % tax rate (as if it mattered).

You provided misdirected links that did not go to where you indicated they would go.

And, when confronted with math that proved your assertions were ludicrous, your response was to assert that I had been dishonest or disingenuine.

Thomas, it is very plain. There is no person who comes to these threads and reads your "analysis" of numbers and comes away thinking you know what you are talking about.

I, on the other hand, have received loads of positive feedback regarding the proof I have provided which contradicts and disproves many assertions by you and your idiot codependents.

While it is true that a small number of your hopeless ANTI associates agree with your baseless opinion that I am any of the negative things you say I am, that impresses no one but like minded idiots who have already made up their minds to oppose these proposals NO MATTER what the numbers show.

Because, the TRUTH, Thomas, is that most everyone who reads these threads believes that there is NOTHING at all that could convince you and most of the ardent ANTI-s to embrace these deals.

NOTHING.

You aren't an honest broker of information. You are a biased hack who will do anything at all to cloud the issue. Your hope is that you can cast doubt upon these questions and cause the public to recoil. You hope to achieve victory through obfuscation.

Thomas, your tactics impress no one.

Your reasoning impresses no one worthy of impressing.

Your attempts to call me names are pathetic.

In short sir, you are a sorry excuse for a participant in important discussions about our community's future.

Other than that, though, you are a fine gentleman, I am sure.

[LOL @ Rick K]

"Rick K gets loads of email from people on this site, as well as many public comments applauding his posts here.

You and a handful of delusional idiots are the only ones who thinks that Rick has made incorrect or invalid assertions."

BAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. Just exactly HOW do you get "loads of email" from this site, Rick??? My god, you really are a 12 year old in a middle-aged man's body.

Rrrrrick K, myspace idol, G.E.D. touting, bad spin spweing JOKE of Ballpark Frankness!!

....and STILL smothering the REAL debate, since 2008.

[John]

Ray F violence? I personally hate baseball. I find it the most boring of all pro sports. And professional bowling or poker aren't sports no matter how much ESPN tries to make them into one. I would love to see the Trop redeveloped and the Rays move to Orlando. Anyone who wants economic impact knows St Pete does not "need" baseball.

[Rick K]

LOL, you do not scare me.

I get loads of email from four sources on this site.

1. I have reached out to various participants here who have shared their email addresses in posts. Many of these people have written back to me.

2. My email address has been provided on this site in several threads.

3. My Myspace page URL was published in these pages. Many people have used that to message me via MySpace's internal email feature.

4. I have also "registered" at websites designed for people interested in those issues. People who have come across my writings here have gone to those organizations and asked for my email, which has been provided.

See, LOL, you can pretend all you want.

You don't scare me.

[Thomas]

My my Rick,

You seem to be getting very upset. I guess being exposed as a total fraud is making you tense. It's not going to get any better, you're about to get owned ... again:

"You made a RIDICULOUS claim that you asserted Proved that the last Super Bowl in Tampa did not generate a $300,000,000 impact upon the regions' economy"
I'll ignore your poor sentence structure. In fact, I referenced the published "Year over Year" sales tax receipts to show that the 2001 Super Bowl did not increase the overall sales for the region. The numbers from 2000 and 2002 proved there was no $300M impact in 2001. Thats what we call a "verifiable fact".

"At one point, you talked about a 6 % tax. Later, you switched to a 7 % tax rate"
All of my calculations were accurate. The developers tax projections are split between city return (1%) and state return (6%). Hence, it is applicable to use 6% when referring to their state numbers and 7% when using the total sales tax. Again, this is a "verifiable fact." You can look up the pdf from the developers or reference my entirely accurate calculations.

"You provided misdirected links that did not go to where you indicated they would go."

My link: http://www.pinellasclerk.org/aspInclude2/CAFR2007/2007CAFR.pdf
Rick's link: http://www.pinellasclerk.org/aspInclude2/CAFR2007/Financial.pdf
Notice anything about the links yet Rick? Any similarities catch your attention?

.
But serioulsy, I'm very impressed that you get "loads of positive feedback".

You can post your admission of inaccuracy, correction, and apology whenever you're ready.

[John]

LOL be careful. Rick K is a SuperBlogger.
Duhnt da dah...

[LOL @ Rick K]

What is poor Rick K going to do for 18 hours a day after this SHAM is shot down?? Poor guy.

[MoveTheDome]

The OBVIOUS choice is to move the dome to the current home of Al Lang. It is the FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE thing to do. As Boomer stated, a $40 AAA membership garners free towing for the first 5 miles. As you can see, moving the dome to Al Lang's locale is less than 5.

movethedome.com!

[Don Mott]

"My email address has been provided on this site in several threads".
"I have reached out to various participants here who have shared their email addresses in posts". Wow I must have missed all of those posts and threads.

[Don Mott]

"I, on the other hand, have received loads of positive feedback regarding the proof I have provided which contradicts and disproves many assertions by you and your idiot codependents". Beyond name calling maybe you might expound on the proof you have provided?

[Boomer]

It appears that both sides of this argument are more interested in calling each other names than finding a simple common sense solution. Otherwise everybody would join the campaign to move the dome and satisfy the masses.

www.movethedome.com

[Steve Lange]

Now the Rays are putting up a four story team office building on the NW corner of the two acre park while re-routing, again, the Grand Prix race track without "EVER" talking to the Grand Prix operators.

Have Matt and Stu lost all sanity?

I mean yesterday it was an underground two acre parking facility for 240 cars under this two acre parkland and now today it is a four story building in OUR PARK on the NW corner.

Which is it Stu and Matt?

Is it a park or a place to stuff all of the left over crap you can not fit anywhere else?

This entire architectural design, this entire architectural site planning and urban planning process is a scam.

A very dangerous scam for St. Pete.

It is the most pathetic performance by a major architectural firms (HOK) that I have ever witnessed.

Put something on paper and see if it sticks.

I thought that is what you do when cooking. Not screwing around with a premiere waterfront park system.

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

[Old Northeast]

Steve,

You have no credibility in this community, none whatsoever. I have lived in Old NE for over 20 years. You got kicked out of the association for being a jerk, then turned around and sued the Neighborhood Association. Are you kidding me?

[kyle]

I support building the field on top of the parking garage. 500 cars per level for 34000 fans that would be 12-15 stories and then the sailboat on top of that. I hear that air temperature is cooler the higher you go. So why not?

[Movethedome]

Kyle is brilliant. Almost as brilliant as moving the dome. I bet if we had a meeting of the minds we could move a parking garage and put the dome on top of it. Voila - problem solved. Kyle, Boomer and the 6HOS folks are headed over to the Middle East to starighten that place out next.

movethedome.com

[Movethedome]

Kyle is brilliant. Almost as brilliant as moving the dome. I bet if we had a meeting of the minds we could move a parking garage and put the dome on top of it. Voila - problem solved. Kyle, Boomer and the 6HOS folks are headed over to the Middle East to starighten that place out next.

movethedome.com

[Steve Lange]

O. Northeast:

I never sued the N. A. That is a lie.

Go to the courthouse and prove it if you can.

I will save you some time.

You can't.

[Thomas comes up short]

We who read those threads know that Thomas had his lunch eaten by Rick.

No contest.

[Thomas]

Rick got owned and disappeared to another thread... again.

Tells you all you need to know.