Rays' presentation to TDC

Here is a copy of the Rays' presentation they made to the TDC on Wednesday, if you're interested. (Probably a big file to open).

Comments

[get-smart]

Here are some hard numbers:
http://www.goodjobsny.org/lootfinal3.pdf

[Ray F]

Aaron,

On the last page, it mentions a Tourism Marketing Package with the new deal. Is there anything elaborating a little more on this?

I notice when I watch the local broadcasts, all I see is outside shots of the domw and occasionally- the Pier or downtown Tampa.

On the other hand- When I watch away games, I see Boston Commons, The Statue of LIberty, etc. throughout those broadcasts. As well as other area landmarks when they intro back into coverage from a commercial.

I've never been out of town and watched a Rays game on an out-of-town feed.

Do opposing teams broadcasts already showcase the area more than our local broadcast when we play at the Trop???

[Rays Mike]

Most out-of-town broadcasts mostly show the Dome, followed by the pier, and occasionally the beaches..

[Rick K]

The interesting thing about this portion of information the Rays (and others) provided to the TDC is that the info debunks even more of the myths propagated by the ANTI's.

The Rays have HARD numbers which show their minimal impact on tourism in the County. These numbers (which surely understate the impact, because of flaws in the way the Rays collect the data) PROVE that the ANTI's are wrong when they claim that the Rays provide a neglible impact upon tourism.

We can set aside the ridiculous pair of contradictory claims advanced by some Anti's: that 15 spring training games downtown during the height of tourist season are good for the city, but 81 games, many of which take place in the tourism off season would not be beneficial.

What we are left with is a series of questions:

If, in fact, these proposals will yield surpluses in the tourism tax beyond projections that don't include these proposals, then this is a reason for the TDC to embrace these proposals.

If, in fact, having an AllStar game in downtown St. Pete would generate $60 to $75 million in NEW tourism dollars, that is another reason for the TDC to embrace these proposals.

If, in fact, these paired redevelopment proposals will ALSO benefit local schools, that is yet another reason for the TDC to embrace these proposals, because the schools are training their largest pool of future employees.

If, in fact, these proposals will actually bring an additional 200,000 (annual) Floridians to Pinellas who wouldn't have otherwise come here, that is another reason for the TDC to embrace these proposals.

If, in fact, these proposals will result in increased "free" exposure to national and international consumers (would-be tourists), that is yet another reason for the TDC to embrace these proposals.

Some people who post here claim, with very vigorous screaming, that they are certain the TDC will reject supporting these proposals.

For the reasons outlined above, I am not convinced.

[John]

Rick K is going to personally financially guarantee every one of his above facts will come true, right Rick?

...and the spin goes on

[get-smart]

My questions are:

1-How come they don't show the $100 million to clean the Trop site?

2-How come they don't show the $100's of millions for infrastructure?

I have an idea. To get the city from under this whole deal. Sell the Trop site to the developer with the Rays team on it. Let the Rays deal with some developer directly. Let the Rays pay their rent to the developer. Let the Rays pay their fair share of taxes on day one.

The Big Benefit to St Pete is St Pete has rid itself of these leeches and we have a tax stream on day one.

Oh! They did forget another thing:
--The Waterfront Is Off Limits!--

[editors notes: When Matt says,"Symbiotic" he means, "Parasitic."]

See - It's All Good!

-

[Rick K]

In reply to GetSmart's post at 11:40 AM.

The reason no proposals show "the $100 million to clean the Trop site and the $100's of millions for infrastructure," is the very same reason the proposals do not show the
$100 million it will take to relocate Santa's workshop from the North Pole to St. Pete.

It's the same reason the proposals don't show the hundreds of millions the City spends in collusion with the Ministry of Magic to keep wizards and witches concealed from the muggle public.

It's the same reason the proposals don't show the hundreds of millions the City will steal from poor children who will no longer have nutritious lunches, air conditioned schools, or dedicated teachers.

All the same reason, really.

[John]

Well Rick, seems you're coming around, comparing the Rays proposal with "Santa, The Ministry of Magic" and other wild-eyed fantasies that never came true.

Great work

[Rick K]

John, no.

I will not personally guarantee anything, nor will anyone else. There are no guarantees of this type anywhere that have any real value.

Gaurantees are largely tricks.

However, here is what we do know about these proposals. While much of this is not gauranteed, it is highly likely.

If these paired redevelopment proposals are approved, downtown will see $1,200,000,000 in construction over the next few years, just on these two projects.

If a developer spends between $500,000,000 and $750,000,000 developing the Trop field site, the taxable value of those properties will increase to something close to or in excess of the amount they spent. (Since, by law, County Tax Appraisers are required to use the cost basis in determining value for new developments).

That is what we know John.

No spin.

Those are the likely outcomes if these deals move forward.

The people who ought to be required to come up with gaurantees are the ANTI's. You ought to have to come up with a guarantee of $1.2 billion in new construction in downtown in the next decade. You ought to have to come up with a gaurantee of $900,000,000 in NEW tax revenues that we will not get if we DO NOT build these projects.

That would be an honest and fair debate.

Not spin.

It's your side who spins John.

Show me how you'd come up with the two billion bucks, and we'll believe you aren't just an anti-development hack.

[Rick K]

John, you aren't paying attention.

Talk about spin!

I was comparing Get-Smarts fictitious claims of $100 million for Trop Field clean up and $100 million for Infrastructure cost to other fictitious expenditures.

You took a straigt forward presentation from me and tried to spin it 180 degrees, claiming it makes a point exactly opposite the point I actually demonstrated.

And you still insist on saying I am spinning.

[John]

Rick, I don't need to "come up" with anything because I don't want either proposal. Period.

I don't want the stadium on the water.

I don't want the city to be lowballed on the price of the Trop.

I don't want the 4th cent bed tax to be handed to the Rays for 30 years.

I don't want the excise tax to be handed to the Rays for 30 years

I don't want to pay a dollar surchage for the Rays, to park at South Core garage to take the family to dinner downtown.

I don't want to fight all the new traffic a waterfront ballpark will bring with it.

I don't want to see Al Lang torn down, and our chances of bringing back FSL or Spring Training to go with it.

I don't want a gigantic 30 story tall igloo on my waterfront.

Should this go to referendum (which it won't), you are going to get a reality check the size of the sail that most everyone else doesn't want this either.

Keep talking though, I enjoy calling you out for the lies and spin.

[Rick K]

John, as you have yet to identify either a single lie by me, or any attempts at spin, that part of your assertion is hilarious.

Those who are watching have now noticed that you refuse to call the County Property Appraiser to determine which is the correct and binding definition of market value.

The Trop is worth what these developers are willing to pay for it, period.

Those who are paying attention will also notice that you refuse to show how you will replace the monies these projects will generate.

You are the dishonest broker in this exchange.

You spin this as these projects will cost this community. You pretend that not pursuing these projects will not have a cost.

Silly.

[John]

Rick, what's your charity? Have you forgotten our wager?

Man up, son. You agreed on this blog to it, and now you're avoiding it at all costs.

Let me go find a few examples from these threads about how Rick K is even turning off fellow supporters. I'll be back.

[Rick K]

John, I am fellows with no one on this site.

My fidelity and friendship is to the truth, as best I can uncover it and explain it.

John, I will bet, if you stop changing what we are betting on.

My assertion was that the Pinellas County Commission will not kill this proposal. Yours has changed a few times.

State your bet, and when we agree, we can both send the money to be held by an arbiter of some sort.

[John]

No Rick, it never changed. Go back and read it, even Troxler came over and made a "funny" about it after I clearly stated I accepted your bet.

More lies, Rick....it's on the blog, dude, you can't hide from it.

[Rick K]

John, you are not reading the blogs.

Every time I offered a specific bet, you countered with an offer to bet on something else.

It's right there in black and white.

I have now decided you are either a child or a person with a mental handicap.

I apologize for assuming otherwise, prior to now.

Sorry, dude.

[Rays Mike]

Rick K has my support!! Answer the question: Give ONE example that he has lied...

[get-smart]

RRRick K:

Last time I checked Santa out-sourced his elf jobs to the Chinese with the help of Goldman Sachs. Santa remarked while walking through the workshop, "I can hardly tell the difference!"

[This is John calling Rick K out]

From the bed tax primer thread, copied exactly as it appears. Who's lying now, Rick K?

___________________________________

Silverman looks like a lamb trying to convince the lions not to eat him for lunch. What a poor presentation.

Posted by: John | June 11, 2008 at 10:36 AM

John sees what he wants to see.

I think Mr. Silverman's presentation is exceptional, and having seen some of the numbers which estimate the impact the Rays have on beach tourism, I will be VERY surprised if the Pinellas County Commission doesn't approve an extension of the bed tax.

Posted by: Rick K | June 11, 2008 at 11:00 AM

Care to make a wager, Rick? $1000.00 to my favorite charity says the TDC recommends not to extend the 4th cent bad tax to the Rays as the request was presented today.

You're very bold with your keyboard, but me thinks you don't have the cajones to back it up.

You've obviously not met those people, nor the people they represent.

And Kudos to Leslie Curran, you go girl!

Posted by: John | June 11, 2008 at 11:17 AM

John, my bet is that the BOCC will approve moving forward with an extentsion of the bed tax, regardless of what the TDC says today.

Wanna wager?

Cuz I do have $1000 for charity that backs up my view on this. I prefer not to bet on something that doesn't mean all that much.

Posted by: Rick K | June 11, 2008 at 11:22 AM

So you're suggesting the BOCC will ignore the TDC should they vote against the extention?? LOL!!!

You have a bet.

My charity will be the St. Pete chapter of the Red Cross.

You can send Aaron a copy of your donation reciept for him to publish here as proof you kept your side of the bet when you lose.

And, in the unlikely even I lose, I'll do the same.

Posted by: John | June 11, 2008 at 11:32 AM

ST. PETERSBURG, June 12 -- Times blogger Sharockman arrested on charges of operating a gambling establishment.

Posted by: Howard Troxler | June 11, 2008 at 12:40 PM

[Rays Mike]

Newsflash, John.....Nobody really cares about this silly bet.. Provide evidence that Rick K lied in his case for the stadium.. If you are concerned about charity, the Rays just gave $125,000 in grants to local charities. If not stadium is built, those grants will go to the needy people of Charlotte, or Vega$...

[Rick K thanking John for proof]

John, thank you for proving, beyond a doubt, that you tried to change the bet beyond what I wanted it to be.

Thank you.

Now please take your meds and go to bed!

[John]

Rick, have you lost touch with reality? What did I change? I accepted YOUR offer!

You still haven't provided the name of your charity, Rrrrrick.

Rays Mike, do you need help packing for your move to Charlotte? LOL

See y'all July 22nd at the BOCC meeting!!!

[Thomas]

The New News on the Rays generic proposal which really just regurgitates the same old claims teams have been using for years to fool the public... let's have a look at the highlights:
-- -- --
"If, in fact, these proposals will yield surpluses in the tourism tax beyond projections that don't include these proposals, then this is a reason for the TDC to embrace these proposals."

-There is already a viable baseball facility in Tampa. Building a new stadium will not magically increase the number of "baseball tourists" enough to offset the $100M contribution from the Bed Tax. The TDC should reject this plan out of hand. They already contributed a massive subsidy to the Trop and the Rays signed a lease through 2027. The team is coming back to the "well" way too early asking for way too much. TDC should say "No Thanks."
-- -- --
"If, in fact, having an AllStar game in downtown St. Pete would generate $60 to $75 million in NEW tourism dollars, that is another reason for the TDC to embrace these proposals."

-Special Events like the All-Star game do not create "new" dollars. They simply displace the normal pattern of visitors to the area. The only "new" thing the All Star game brings is expenses for additional police, safety, etc. There is no significant net gain. Reference the independent report on San Francisco last year for additional details of how MLB misrepresents the economic impact of the All Star game.
-- -- --
"If, in fact, these paired redevelopment proposals will ALSO benefit local schools, that is yet another reason for the TDC to embrace these proposals, because the schools are training their largest pool of future employees."

-The appropriate way to help the schools would be to launch a referendum to change the way the Bed Tax can be used. Let's put a referendum on the ballot that says the 4th cent can be given to the Pinellas's Schools. The Rays can find a private way to finance that portion of their plan.
-- -- --
"If, in fact, these proposals will result in increased "free" exposure to national and international consumers (would-be tourists), that is yet another reason for the TDC to embrace these proposals."

-Shopping Malls and Condos don't get international attention. There is already "free" exposure for Rays games at the Trop. The TDC doesn't need to spend another $100M or so for something they already have.

-- -- --

I have no idea what the TDC will decide. But the logical thing for them to do is say: "No thanks. We've already given you a massive subsidy. In return you honored just 10 years of your 30 year agreement before you came back asking for more. Go away, we have nothing more for you right now."

[Fools gold]

Here comes Thomas with his patently false and wildly absurd accusations that All Star games do not bring visitors to the area. Anyone who believes this line of faulty reasoning and gets suckered by the "studies" who make this claim deserve Thomas.

[Let's see]

Let me see. Hotel vacancy rates during the all star break in Pinellas and Hillsborough are at 61%.

Bring an All Star game, occupancy shoots to 90%.

Thomas claims that this 50% increase would have happened anyway.

He can offer no economic theory to support his claim.

But he makes it anyway.

It defies common sense.

But he makes it anyway.

HaHaHaHa!

[John]

Rick K is now fools gold?? LMAO

Rick, you've been called on this problem you have before, even by Ray F, for using fake names to blast someone's opnion.

Class act, you are.

[Thomas]

Rick asserted that he would no longer reply to my posts a while ago.

Now in a "clever" attempt to honor that commitment he uses an anonymous name to reply.

That dude is a hack.

[Thomas]

Major League Baseball has rewarded cities that build new baseball stadiums with the chance to host the All-Star Game. Although the league asserts a significant boost to metropolitan economies due to the game, are these economic impact estimates published by the league credible? In two separate economic impact models, the authors find that All-Star Games since 1973 are actually associated with worse than expected economic performance in host cities.

Robert A. Baade
Lake Forest College

Victor A. Matheson
Lake Forest College

BOOM - Outta Here

[since1962]

The first half of the TDC meeting was ALL we needed to know regarding the insanity of this proposal.
REDUCED BED TAX REVENUE
LOWER OCCUPANCY
LESS FOREIGN TRAVELERS.
Pinellas County poorly positioned to attract afflent travelers and NO capital in the market for upgrading existing hotels or adding the essential new resorts REQUIRED to attract those with disposable income!
The projected 100 million will NOT be there and the 55 million parking fantasy IS is NOT currently possible.
Do not gamble with our MAJOR economic engine for this!

[Paul]

Is patently false more false than just 'false'? If I'm going to be false, I think I want to be patently false. It just sounds so officially false, a lot more false than false.

Am I wrong for thinking this? I mean, am I false on my thoughts on being patently false? If so, excuse me for being false about false or one upped falsehood on patently false or... ahhhh, heck with it I'll just stick with being wrong.

... saw the TDC meeting the other day. That guy who was speaking about tourism before the Rays got up, wow! now that was a presentation. The guy had more info than you could imagine on the local and state tourism market. He even commented on the European market and how it would impact Florida in the next 6 months. Everyone on the TDC had raised eyebrows of interest and for the few questions they posed, guess what, they got direct, precise answers on the spot... very much unlike the Rays who continue to reply with their now sound bite/standard lines of, 'uuuh, we hope to get that to you... uhhhhhmm, we're planing on hiring someone for that study, soon.'

What nonsense. This stadium turdfest is going to get flushed like the stinkbomb it is, for sure.

[John]

Since1962

There's a tiny little detail being lost here. It's 100 million the TDC does not yet have.

Therefore, the TDC must secure bonds in that amount to pay the Rays up front so they can build. Those bonds have interest, just like a mortgage. In the end, after 30 years that $100 million bond will be more like $250 million in tourist bed taxes needed to satisy the bond.

More cloudy numbers from the Rays and their shills.

[Rick K]

Nothing cloudy about it.

John wants to PRETEND that the numbers are cloudy, because that helps him to sell his pack of lies.

It's disgusting, really. The way these ANTI's try to wear us all down by throwing a never ending stream of lies, distortions and distractions at us all.

The extension of the bed tax is money that will be collected. There is a possible chance that a nuclear explosion or some other collosal disaster will strike the county resulting in no tax collections.

But if al proceeds as most sane people expect, the County WILL collect that fourth cent bed tax.

ONLY by choosing to commit to invest that money into this new stadium does the County receive the many likely benefits from the new stadium and a redeveloped Trop Field site.

It's simple.

Without the investment, the county loses out on the $1.2 billion in development and the $1 billion or more in future economic benefits that will be generated (without nuclear explosions) from these new redevelopments.

[since1962]

Paul & John
Wouldn't it a better public service if the TIMES reported this essential info on tourism rater than the one glib comment "not what the Rays wanted to hear" in the PAPER?

[questioner]

Since1962: Let's see if we have this right. One guy's opinions about the future are right? The other guys' are pie in the sky fantasy?

On what basis do we sort that out?

[since1962]

AARON?
PULITZER ANYONE?

[Jon McPhee]

Questioner, maybe with pistols, or more appropriately with baseball bats at point-blank range?

[Kathleen]

Saw this on the Cinn Reds website. Sounds nice:

Great American Ball Park - Home of the Reds

Located on the winding banks of the Ohio River in downtown Cincinnati, Great American Ball Park serves as the home of the Cincinnati Reds, baseball's first professional franchise.

[Rick K]

Kathleen, good catch!

One of the more interesting aspects of the story behind Great American Ball Park was that the movement to replace the old Riverfront Stadium/Coliseum in Cincinnati was almost hijacked by forces who wanted to put the NEW stadium OUTSIDE downtown.

That's right.

Various political factions proposed building the new ballpark in Indiana, and also in Kentucky.

Instead, the City leadership forged a public-private partnership with the Reds ownership group and managed to build both new stadiums in downtown Cincinnati, rather than in another state or out in the Suburbs, as many had suggested.

One interesting part of the story behind the two new stadiums in the Queen City is that an ANTI Stadium group hired a pair of university professors to analyze the economic return to the City from their (then 30 year) investments in Riverfront Stadium & Riverfront Coliseum.

The ANTI's engaged the professors because they expected them to come back with the conclusion that the three decades of stadium ownership had resulted in a net economic/financial loss to the City. The ANTI's were stunned when the professors came back with conclusions that were precisely the opposite.

Among other things, the researchers in that case identified people like my family, who lived an hour north of Cincinnati in rural Ohio. Four or five times a year, we'd venture to Cincinatti as a family, parking downtown, shopping, eating, and spending money that we would have otherwise spent elsewhere. Through the cooperation of downtown hotels, the study's authors found hundreds of people who lived outside the City who made one or more trips to downtown annually, including an overnight hotel stay.

It all reminds me so much of the Ray's situation, really.

[Observer]

College professors who actually work in Arizona.

http://knowledge.wpcarey.asu.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1597