Sarasota/St. Petersburg and Red Sox/Rays

Read this story from Sarasota and then replace Sarasota with St. Petersburg and Red Sox with Rays. It's kind of fun.

Comments

[Ray F]

so basicly...

A city wants to build a stadium to lure a team that is locked into a contract with another city.

Now... call me retarded, but, isn't that what everyone is saying isn't happening in the Rays case???

Wake up dummies! Cities salivate over the opportunity to lure a Major League team to their area.

$70 million (say 90mill conservatively) for 10 games each spring and probably a minor league affiliate playing 50 games a season in front of what? 5000 people???

WOW... great job St Pete... even Sarasota makes us looks like a bunch of conservative rubes.

Now I've seen it all.

[make a deal]

I'm considering Sarasota business leaders to be the new generation of forward thinkers that st. Pete use to have in the 1920's....

[Jon McPhee]

Gee, you guys, and then those other cities will also discover that the only benefit the general public gets, from mortgaging their communities to do different than San Francisco, which told the Giants owner to pound sand several times until he and his buddies built their own money-making stadium with their own money, is the "psychic" one of having a "home team" whose owners will always be looking for the next urban suckers to pull the same play on.

Even the Ricksters seem to be coming around to the lame argument that it's the unmeasurable, unquantifiable "good feeling" that makes a billion-dollar corporate-welfare subsidy to private entertainment "worth it."

Hey, sir, "conservative" used to be an honorable word, before Gingrich and Rove and those dudes. It meant, well, conservative, as in cautious, saving, preserving, looking for lasting values and truths. You even use "conservative" as the adjective to color your guesstimate of $90 million for a 10-game public-gift stadium. What are you, then, with your unbridled affection for MLB-At-Any-Cost? Some kind of pointy-headed, dirty-toed, pot-smoking, Commie-symp, anti-gun, Chappaquiddick-Lewinsky TAX-AND-SPEND LIBERAL?

If the Rays TEAM, the guys on the field, continue to win, it's likely that over time the seats in the Dome will fill up, and people will come to love "their" team as much as the "wait till next year" loyalists who stayed with the Cubbies in their (privately funded) stadium for all those lean years.

That is, that may happen if this is really about baseball as baseball, and not about some "vision" that convinces the smoked mind that economic salvation comes from a billion-dollar public sports palace, very tentative possible potential maybe staged development depending on market forces some time in the distant future, and a few low-paid resulting service jobs (after the billion has been distributed to the blessed, of course.) And a steady annual public bill for services, infrastructure, debt service and all the rest.

[make a deal]

Jon McPhee...Ever heard the old Proverb a fool has many words and the wise man few?

You really should consider typing for less than 5 seconds.

Yes, I copied and pasted what I said from the other article!

[Don Mott]

There is one undeniable fact. The time for taxpayer subsidies of millionaires is over. Cities subsidise corporations whose CEO's rake in millions while planning their next move to India, see Nielson. Major league team owners see their teams value increase greatly while they are absorbing the profits of taxpayers subsidies. Then they come back to the table and ask for more while they are stuffing millions of dollars into their pockets. Government subsidies have become corporate welfare and it is welfare for the rich, period. There comes a time when you have to say no more.

[make a deal]

so we say good bye to Jabil too? Now we can really show them. St. Pete is no ones' fool... in the meantime we will lose 2,000+ existing jobs between Jabil and the Rays, and we can get rid of more tax relief seeking Pinellas companies too.

But no concerns...people like Jon McPhee and Don Mott have a plan to keep food on the table and the tourist coming!

[Don Mott]

Near as I can tell since I've only been here about 50 years we had plenty of tourists before Jabil or the Rays were even in the incubator. And we had food on the table too. What I propose may not work but it is true. The problem with my proposal is all of the people, like you out there who think subsidies are necessary. The only reason they are is due to the fact that communities keep offering them. If you like giving your tax dollars to millionaires that is your prerogative.

[Susie Q]

Ray F. and Make a Deal: Please move to Sarasota and help them with their baseball opportunity. Blog for them. Save us your witt and wisdom. Please!

Don Mott: Keep up the good work and words. You sound smart "and" reasonable.

[Don Mott]

Thank uou Susie Q. I don't think I'm smart but I like to think I am sane and reasonable.

[Jon McPhee]

When it comes to proverbs, there's a lot of them -- like "A fool and his money are soon parted," and "A penny saved is a penny earned," and that nice reciprocal one that fits everybody, "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and dispel all doubt."

Mr. Deal, look up "reductio ad absurdam" and then review your either-or style of argument. I know, the suggestion is wasted on you. But it's more likely and maybe acceptable that Jabil, which actually makes reasonably paid jobs and has ties to a much larger part of the New World Order than a parochial "home team," will get tax breaks and incentives and other subsidies than the guys who own the Rays franchise -- who the Times referred to as "corporate nobility" in the article on them last year, who live in estates way out of town and state.

Though it still seems likely that some public funds will find their way into a "deal" with our city and county leaders, who are now sitting down to "negotiate" our futures with that same "nobility." You will likely get your "deal" yet.

Adn the last time I checked, "cities don't salivate -- only a few citizens who see an opportunity for personal profit.

Remember San Francisco, the "city" that told the Giants owner to put up his own stadium, which with some other business help and some infrastructure from the community that actually benefitted more than just the MLB team. And mirabile dictu, that franchise seems to be hauling in a good bunch of cash anyway.

Complex issues don't resolve very well in exchanges of bitter sound bites. It's often the case that a 5-second thought would benefit from minutes or hours or even days of re-thinking. That of course goes for all of us.

[make a deal]

St. Pete should make-a-deal.

That means instead of saying nothing, engage in a way that shows interest in wanting the Rays, Jabil, Raytheon, and all other too big for their britches businesses and their wealthy owners and CEO's to be here in St. Pete.

They make the initial proposal and city council and commissioners come back with what the community feels can increase our tax income.

Be it wrong or right, without a crystal ball we'll never know until it happens, a bad a** waterfront stadium is my first choice!

[Rick K]

Don Mott is endlessly amusing....

"There is one undeniable fact. The time for taxpayer subsidies of millionaires is over."

Don. That is not a fact. It is not even an opinion supported by available facts. There are plenty of subsidies which benefit millionaires, and there will continue to be many more. EVERY public subsidy benefits some people disproportionately, while also having some other benefits that are more widely spread. That is a fact.

Every subsidy benefits some people disproportinately.

But that has never been a reasonable basis for determining the suitability of some particular public investment.

That is the sort of emotional, immature, ill reasoned excuse given by people whose lives are ruled by fear and jealousy, rather than the intelligent, practical, mature approach to figuring out what to do.

For everyone but Don, imagine an island in the Bay which could accomodate 1000 new homes. Using public funds to build a bridge to the island would disproportinately favor the land owner on the island, followed by people who would buy homes there, followed by people who would build the homes there, continuing on a list of benefit recepients that could go on for a long time, depending upon one's ability to see benefits.

But the fact that some would disproportinately benefit from the public investment is not, by itself, a reason not to do it.

This is what every reasonable man thinks. This is what the Flordia Supreme Court has said over and over and over about public investment in sports facilities, transportation infrastructure, and similar projects.

The City of Oldsmar subsidized Nielson's new facilities in Oldsmar because the company brought JOBS and SPENDING to the City. Is the City greedy? Does it want MORE? Sure. Does the fact that the City is not getting what it wants mean that the subsidy was not a good deal?

Of course not.

Ask the person who works at Neilson in Oldsmar. Or the person THAT person bought their house in Oldsmar from. Or the person who works at a store in Oldsmar that derives its income from people who work at Neilson.

If Don Mott actually understood business valuation, or actually read the studies he links to, he would understand that private ownership of stadiums is generally smarter for team owners (irrespective of debt service - focusing on existing teams who own their existing ball parks) than is public ownership.

Generally, the public owns sports stadia because there are public benefits which EXCEED the costs of ownership.

That is a law of economics.

There is no law or theory of economics that says that people continually make economic choices that HARM them. None.

There are some so called economists who try to make this claim. But their claims are not supported either by any reasonable measurement of available evidence, nor by any credible theory of economics.

Those who are truly knowledgeable about the history of the Dome and the effort to bring MLB to the bay area know that the Dome was a rushed compromise choice that was sub-optimal.

The City of St Pete (with state and Federal financial assistance) relocated 461 households and businesses and demolished 264 buildings to clear the Dome site.

This was not done to enrich a millionaire. It was done to remove urban blight and clear the decks for potential future development. Development which has been greatly hampered by the site design.

This conversation about these paired redevelopment proposals was always, to those of us able to take a broader view, more about helping the community to finally realized the unreached promises of that transformative decision 25 years ago.

That the small minded like Don Mott wanted to put their heads inside their moth-eaten afghans and scream, "We are NOT going to enrich millionaires" is a little more than a sad testimony about the failings of social conscience.

It's fine that Don Mott thinks he is some sort of genius. He looks at a scene in which hundreds of public subsidies are visible, and singles out only a few as unacceptable.

Don Mott reaped the benefits of subsidies, but he is not a millionaire, so everyone else can go to heck! Don and his ilk, represented by the aged ANTI's who post in these threads, are what we in the economics field call "unaware ignorants."

They live in a city which subsidizes millionaires every day and will continue to. Yet they pretend that they are putting a stop to it!

All they are really doing is hurting the much wider population of non-millionaires who would have reaped the benefits from these proposals.

[Don Mott]

Hi RRRick! Thanks for cheering me up today. After last weeks drop in the markets I needed a laugh. I'm sure the laid off workers from Nielson could use one too.

[Don Mott]

Oh, by the way I don't have an Afghan. My fiancee has a Schnauzer but it is not bothered by moths. Neither is my down filled pillow which is where I usually put my head. Have a great day RRRick.

[Movethedome.com]

I know all have been anxiously waiting for MTD opinion on this, so here goes: we don't think moving the dome to Sarasota is a good idea.

Your in the movement to a St. Pete locale,

MTD staff

[Paul]

I'm all for MTD. I would like to propose a movethedome.com 'plan B'. We put the dome on Rick K's property and if it doesn't fit, we just add some landfill to make it so.

That should keep Ricktum busy for the near term.

Looks like we need to step up our efforts to get Al Lang zoned out of the new stadium business. I have a gut feel that the new Progress Energy CEO is going to poise this turd (yeah, that's just for you Ricktum) be moved to North Carolina.

[Truth Machine]

I am not paying any of my taxes for a new stadium until Tropicana Field is falling apart. Until then it is not needed. What ever happened to "fidutiary responsibility" by public officials.

[Ditto Head]

The coalition (Baker's term) or task force, which is what is needed, should be open to all groups who participated actively within this public debate and process. If it ends up being nothing but corporate CEO's, the you know what will hit the fan. Anyone know how to spell "back room deals" and "recall of public officials"?

[John]

You people can type your happy little selves to death over this but in the end, there are only two realistic options.

The current Trop site or Gateway/Toytown. That's it.

There is no way any gov't body nor the citizens are going to build the Rays an outdoor, non-air conditioned, baseball-only ballpark with taxpayer money. It's been stated over and over by many local major players in this "game".

The Rays 1st choice, as well as the fans, is an air conditioned, retractable roof stadium designed primarily for baseball yet which can be utilized for multiple other events that we have a desparate need for.

That simply won't fit at Al Lang, the Rays said it themselves, so drop it already.

The Trop is the only sizable meeting/convention space left in the entire county now that Harborview Center and Bayfront Arena are gone. This is a fact.

The only way the TDC would get up off bed tax $$ to help subsidize the cost, is if a convention space/hotel component was included in the design. This is a fact.

The Rays need corporate support. Putting the team at Toytown is a viable option because most of the largest employers in the county are less than a mile away in Carillon and Gateway. This is a fact. This option would, of course leave the Trop site open to build Rick K's fantasy village Eco-Verde.

So there are your options. Tampa is out. Steinbrenner already said he'd pull the Yanks out of town if it was even CONSIDERED. Whomever said putting it on the Pier must be smoking mushrooms and the airport sites are a fantasy.

Is a retractable-roof stadium with a/c built in the future going to cost more? Probably so. But you know what? I'd rather pay more to have the right mix and balance in this county for the next 30-40 years than this knee-jerk "we have to build SOMETHING YESTERDAY!!" mindset that will end up a failure. Then what?

[John]

I find it odd that Rays Mike, Ray F and Jimbo, etc aren't on here LAMBASTING the city of Sarasota like they did REPEATEDLY to posters on here who emphasized the value of Spring Training to a city as a SPRING TIME tourist draw. Sarasota must be on crack or something, even considering spending millions to lure a "worthless" Spring Training team to their city limits, right boys? Remember Ray F and Rays Mike, you both repeatedly stated Spring Training doesn't do jack squat to draw people to downtown, but it's GREAT NEWS!!! that Sarasota can do it, but we can not. Hypocrisy, defined.

[Rick K]

John, you are, of course, completely mischaracterizing Ray F and Rays Mike's positions about Spring Training. They were pointing out that it was stupid and logically inconsistent for the ANTI's to argue on the one hand that Spring Training in downtown St. Pete was the cat's meow, but that MLB at the same location would lead to the ruination of the city.

Further, Neither Ray nor Mike live in Sarasota which currently lacks any appreciable baseball presence. Ray and Mike both live in St. Pete.

As for your "only two options," theory.

Hogwash.

Silly, unsupportable fantasy.

The Rays have not indicated that they are against a privately developed stadium.

What has actually happened in the past weak, John, which is obvious to all of us who are paying attention, is that the Rays just greatly increased their leverage and have improved the liklihood that they will now find an optimal facility to replace the Trop.

NOW, EVERY POSSIBLE location is in play. That includes all of Hillsborough County, Polk County, Pasco County, Manatee County and Sarasota County, and every other county, for that matter.

Despite the fantasies you cling to John, the cities of Nashville, Knoxville, Memphis, Biloxi, New Orleans, Las Vegas, Portland, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, and a dozen other locations are now IN PLAY.

John you can convince yourself that none of these other locations would welcome a MLB team. You can convince yourself that MLB or the existing Trop lease with St. Pete would keep the team in St. Pete.

However, John, whatever fantasies you choose to cling to have nothing to do with the reality in which the rest of us live and function.

The Rays have now turned the tables. Instead of being the presenters asking to have their plans shot down, they are now the presentees, able to shoot down any number of proposals as being less optimal to their interests.

It was a BRILLIANT move on the Rays part. As to what it will bring, we shall see soon enough.

[John]

Rick K

You're entire purpose on this blog is a silly fantasy made up in your feeble little mind to play mind games with those you feel less intelligent than yourself who don't agree in lock-step with your views. It's comical to watch, really. You've been made the "waterboy" of this blog. The joke of this entire discussion, even by people who agree with you.

If you enjoy taking pleasure from that, by all means. Enjoy yourself.

I know the difference. I was right the whole time Rick K...I told you over a month ago that the Rays would abandon their experiment, didn't I? Yes, Rrrrrick, I sure did. That makes Rick K respond in one-sentence entries like "Yeah, right, you guys are silly"....

Did you hand the Red Cross a check for a $1000.00 in my name yet for losing our bet Rick? Of course you didn't, you're not a man. You're a kid with a keyboard and a wild imagination.

How are those "paired redevelopment proposals" working out for you, anyways?

The Rays have made a wise choice. I think you give them too much credit Rick, you seem to think they're smarter than even you, when that is likely not the case at all. If they were, we'd still be on the road to a referendum, wouldn't we, Rick?

Keep drinking your beer, looking for your soul mate and posting your 1000 word manifestos of nonsense, we're here for your enjoyment, Rick.

Maybe you should ask that Sara chick out, she sounds like a hottie.

[John]

Oh and Rick K, those multitudes of sites you bring up (Biloxi? LMFAO!!!) have ALWAYS BEEN IN PLAY, you meatwhistle.

The Rays could tell St. Pete at ANY TIME THEY WISH to pound sand, because another city offered them a ballpark. It could happen tomorrow, or it could happen the day after the sailboat was built. Let the lawyers work out the details. That is true for any professional sports team, at any time, any where Rick.

You yourself have argued this point (about the City's lease being non-ironclad), ad nauseum. Remember?

So what changed, Rick K?? Why hasn't Mike Kalt or Matt Silverman been invited to Las Vegas or Portland on a junket? If the Rays aren't soliciting a city, they're not in violation of the lease. But if other cities solicit them, who's to say they haven't secretly been racking up frequent flyer miles checking out leads? It's because they haven't, Rick.

Your spin is getting rather weak, indeded.

[John]

(Here is where Rick K changes names to cheerlead himself and make fun of me).....wait for it...wait...here it comes....

[Don Mott]

Good ole RRRick, I remember when I questioned why the Ray's waited so long to contact the Bocc knowing they would need their help. The "genius" known as RRRick told me it was a brilliant move on their part. Didn't work out that way did it RRRick? Yeah RRRick we all know you are the mastermind economist and know all see all genius. Certainly so since you now espouse the backing down of the Ray's as a genius "new" plan. Uhh... excuse me but they had two choices go forth and lose or reorganize and try to create something acceptable to the local populace. This is not something they wanted to do. It was something they were forced to do.

[Rick K]

We will see how it all shakes out.

Meanwhile, John and Don, enjoy your premature celebration.

I haven't yet given up on this City.

[Jon McPhee]

Hey Ricky, it doen't appear that Don and John and Thomas and Lorraine and all the other people you try to demonize as "antis" have "given up on this City" either.

One might say that all us people who want the City to go in various directions, you included, are "political recivitists," and ought to be locked up in that new re-education center you've got planned for Albert Whitted.

I would add for Don that, in my humble estimation, the francise owners (remember, the Rays are the actual baseball players -- labor under management) have several more than two options. The one that I would guess is in the works is some kind of "show trial" presented by the CEO panel and the Ed Strongarms as their counsel, a kind of Potemkin Village of participatory democracy.

So keep a weather eye out for a stealth attack on the original lines. RRRrrrik sure hasn't strayed from his "vision" of The Two Towers. As in Tolkien's book, referring to Minas Morgul, lair of that source of all evil, Sauron, and Orthanc, the hangout of the would-be master of an evil world, Saruman the Wizard.

Where are all the Hobbits when they're needed?

[Rays Mike]

What I actually SAID was that in St. Pete's case, you were not getting as much tourists coming to spring training games, because the hometown team already played here. I also SAID that spring training is great for towns that want to bring a team's northern fanbases down for vacation, but not as a substitute for having an actual MLB team play here.

I'm sorry to John that I didn't answer within 5 seconds of the new posting. I actually have a life outside of this blog...

[Rays Mike]

And Steinbrenner will pull the Yankees out of Tampa if the Rays come? Is that a threat or a promise? With a sweetheart deal, he isn't going anywhere, unfortunately. Having a popular team Yankees not only keeping their base in the Bay Area, but actually wielding influence on the Rays has been nothing but detrimental to the growth of the Rays as a team for all of Tampa Bay. It is absurd that even their games are on local radio down here. This really has to be the stupidest argument that John has ever made….

[Jon McPhee]

putting blogs to sleep for years with mindless rambling, I am ....

[Thomas]

Is Bozo K still at it with this junk: "...the cities of Nashville, Knoxville, Memphis, Biloxi, New Orleans, Las Vegas, Portland, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, and a dozen other locations are now IN PLAY... you can convince yourself that none of these other locations would welcome a MLB team"

Dude, for the last time, no one has to convince themselves that these are empty threats of relocation:

If they were IN PLAY they could have had the Marlins (or Expos) over the last decade. They didn't want them. That's the fact. The fantasy is that there is a possibility of relocation.

New Orleans? Are you on crack? You think that city is going to publicly fund a stadium for a baseball team amid their own going crisis?

Get a clue Ricky.

There is NO VIABLE RELOCATION OPTION for the Rays.

Anyone who says otherwise is using an idle threat in an attempt to extort public funding for a team that is not going anywhere to begin with.

[Rick K]

Thomas, again, proves his idiocy....

Over and over.

New Orleans has entire neighborhoods which are STILL not redeveloped and which sit in flood plains.... Legislators from there are contemplating the attempt to build an MLB worthy ball park in one such neighborhood, because it is as seen as one of the few things that won't be terribly damaged in a flood . . . .

Plus, they believe there are considerable economic benefits to be had from such a project.

Thomas, only you and the kool aid drinking anti's believe the nonsense that the Rays have no viable relocation options.

That is pure fantasy on your part, not supported by any ACTUAL facts.

[Thomas]

Yawn.

Just like all those times the Marlins threatened to leave. There's fact NUMBER ONE right there. What city made them an offer? NONE.

Of course you cannot refute that, so you cook up some lame story about New Orleans.

You're so weak dude. It's an empty threat, just like the Marlins before them, they have NO PLACE to go.

[Rick K]

Thomas, it's one thing to want, as you so badly do, to cling to fantasy.

It's another thing entirely to expect strangers to come along for the ride.

Just keep foolin yourself that no one else wants an MLB franchise, and there is no one willing to pay for it.

It matters to no one, really, what fantasies you embrace. Your fantasy life will also not impact what actually happens one little bit. Which leaves us with the question,

"why must you display your silly fantasies here?"

No need to answer dude, we already know.

[Thomas]

Check the scoreboard Ricko - the "strangers" completely disregard your opinions, not mine. We all know who is in fantasy land. It ain't me brother.

Also, I see that you still got no answer as to why no one jumped up in all the years of the Marlins being available huh... just more gibberish about "foolin yourself that no one else wants an MLB franchise, and there is no one willing to pay for it."

Where were they Rick? It's a simple question. Did you have an answer? The Marlins have been threatening to move for a decade. What other cities made an offer for that franchise?

While you avoid answering that, enjoy the game.

1st place and a fight!

[Susie Q]

Seems that the editorial board for the Sarasota Herald newspaper has come out against the proposed waterfront location for their proposed stadium. Now why is their paper so smart and ours not? Maybe we could switch papers!

[Next Round]

Please switch addresses as well then.

I think the Times has held a pretty open dialog. Sorry they don't take talking points from POWW or the UHURUS or any other loosely organized group for that matter.

[Next Round]

LONG LIVE "AL LANG II"

[Thomas]

You spin me Rick Round baby Rick Round - like a record baby - Rick Round, Rick Round.

You spin me Rick Round baby Rick Round - like a record baby - Rick Round, Rick Round.

Will any of your fake names help the Rays hit a knuckleball tonight? If not, please take all your stupid aliases and go away.

[Next Round]

Ahh Thomas, don't blame Rick for every comment. Really, there are other Ray Stadium Fans out here.

Neither the Rays or the Sox have lost a home game to each other yet. Hopefully the trend will keep going tonight.

#1 Rays equals a changing tide. Can you feel the momentum?

[Kathleen]

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080626/OPINION/806260683/1627/NEWS02

Now there is real leadership at the Herald Tribune. The editorial board does NOT favor giving over Sarasota's precious public waterfront to Major League Baseball!

[Thomas]

I'm hoping that Percy isn't heading back to the DL.

I'm not worried about Wheeler closing, but if everyone's role pushes back an inning, they lose the "bridge" of Howell-Balfour / Wheeler / Percival.

Something about Jay Hammel or Gary Glover trying to get big outs in the 6th or 7th makes me nervous.

Luckily the All-Star break is right in front of them so Troy can get healthy.

[Next Round]

Kathleen,
We had no problem giving the waterfront to MLB for the past 90 years. Whats new?? Should we tear down the yacht club too? It's actually in the park land.

[Next Round]

Percy looked pretty gimpy. He needs to take as much time as needed. They brought him back too early the first time he pulled his hamstring.

[Mal]

Next Round lets have a ballpark at Al Lang. No taller no more capacity just a ballpark like there is now.Please don't make a comparison between the present structure and 20 story one with a 300 foot mast and tent.

[Next Round]

Why do you have a issue with the height.
Up is better than out. You can't see over or through Al Lang now.

Why are you protecting the Air above Al Lang.

20 stories is approximately 260 feet. The main structure is half of that, say 10 stories at most. The stadium 90 percent of the time won't have the sail up.

If AL LANG II is 100 million cheaper than the other sites would you re-consider it?

[Rick K]

20 Stories now?

The scale of the new waterfront ball park (which I am betting STILL gets built), next to two tall skyscapers, will be perfectly appropriate to the site.

The exagerations about lack of appropriate scale are little more than POWW propaganda. We've seen the drawings and 3D models. We've seen the openend of the stadium onto the bay. We've seen the open views into and out of the stadium from/to the North.

Stop with the stupid, silly, exagerations.

[rustyeibeam]

I am sorry for those of you who cannot viualize what the proposed waterfront stadium would really look like. At over 200 feet, the permanent structures such as the roof above the south wall (not including the rectractable sail) would be massively larger than anything that Al Lang currently has. The 300 foot mast would be almost as tall as Signature Place, and the total mass of the stadium is very close to Tropicana Field in scale. Tall slender towers will hold no candle to the massive, almost 2 square blocks of city owned property that will be dominated by this behemoth.

[rustyeibeam]

Oh, by the way--for game days, the sail will have to be up most of the day in order to cool the field appropriately--I'm pretty sure that 81 games is more than 10% of the time...I think that 10% of 365 days is only 36 or 37 days, depending on how you round...what about the other days?

[Susie Q]

NO New Waterfront Stadium. Not now now ever.

Pick another location already.

[Rick K]

Susie Q, we have heard the mantra. It does not impress us, nor does it scare us.

Our community will now proceed in a mature manner, wherein the shrill voices of the reactionary oppositionists are now appropriately diminished to the fringes where they naturally belong.

We will engage in a community wide participatory process to come up with the BEST solution for the City.

I am betting this process leads us right back to the waterfront.

But I have been wrong before.

And RustyIbeam, we can see the pictures and renderings and have the capacity to picture things quite well, without the aid of your "scary" imagery.

It is not at all clear to any of us (who are not afraid of boogey men) exactly what it is you imagine the new stadium would be "dwarfing."

The extensive open space around the stadium lends it scale.

From the North, with the tiered public parklands, the stadium will seem like a cool, inviting place of public assembly atop a sunny hill.

From the East, the stadium will look like a terrific, one of a kind urban amenity which can be enjoyed from the water! I can't wait for a Jimmy Buffett concert with thousands of parrotheads on boats, or the All Star week home run derby, broadcast on TV all over the world, with lots of kayakers and canoers in the Bay, ready to dive for home run balls.

From the South, the large open space separating the Mahaffey from the Stadium will give the impression that the City has two tremendous, valued prizes on neighborhing lots, upon which the city had the foresight to inlcude LOTS of open space.

From the West, the street level displays which tie St Pete's century of baseball history with the current stadium will add excitement to first time stadium goers who approach from that direction, while providing a continuing source of civic pride for St. Petersburgians far and wide.

I personally think the Stadium design should include an indoor-outdoor baseball history musuem that further leverages that exciting and rare history.

More than 80% of the great players in the Baseball Hall of Fame have played baseball in St. Pete!

The stadium design, as proposed by the Rays, is a fitting tribute to that history which will fit in with the existing urban landscape on an appropriate scale.

[John]

Rick K

Changing threads to spin your nonsense to someone who posted yesterday is not going to get you your sailboat at AL Lang, Rrrrrick.

I LOVE watching you get hammered on one thread so you switch gears and run to another to attack someone else.

Classy stuff.

Drop the Al Lang fantasy already. It's dead, Rick. Dead. Not on a shelf, it's dead.

[Rick K]

John, I did not change threads for any reason other than I have been catching up on posts that I have missed.

I typically post here for the person who will come along days from now, searching for answers. I do not post out of some sense of immediate urge to reply to the latest ANTI rubbish.

John, I am getting hammered no where today. Your glasses must be obscuring your vision.

The Al Lang proposal is not dead, John.

We are now engaged in a community-wide process to find the best possible site.

I am betting that site is Al Lang.

[John]

Well then, care to go for double or nothing?

It won't be built at Al Lang. Simple.

Al Lang field will be torn down eventually, and replaced with green space and possibly SOME retail along 1st St S frontage.

There's your future for the waterfront.

[Rick K to Mal]

John, we cannot go double or nothing, because our previous attempt to bet was voided by actions outside our control. (Neither of us bet on the proposition of the Rays withdrawing their proposal, I was insisting that if the Rays stuck to their timetable, no government group would vote to keep it from coming to a vote. You were insisting various things, but none of them involved you asserting that you wanted to wager that the Rays would withdraw the proposal, and me accepting that wager).

John, each time you make a post like that, where you "pretend" that what happened is something other than what really happened, you make people wonder.

I am not willing to bet how the vote will come out. I am not willing to bet that there will be a vote, because I allow for the very real possibility that some new alternative will arise, or a political and financial deal will be struck.

For example, the Rays ownership group has the bank to pay for their own stadium. Given free land and enough appropriate subsidies, they might just opt to do that.

What I have been saying is this, for anyone confused. Of all the stadium proposals we have heard about so far, it is obvious to me that the waterfront location is far superior to the others we've heard about.

Unless that changes (and it might), we are probably still on a path towards some sort of vote about a waterfront stadium.

[Purple Mountain's Magistry]

Hey Rick K:

Do you really think that the public is now out of the stadium and stadium site selection process? That the suits will take over and make all of the decisions? Get real man.

We are in charge. John and Jane Doe. Get used to the idea.

[Rick K to Purple]

No Purple, I do not think that the public is out of the process.

ON the contrary, I think the public will now get a fair chance to participate in a manner which accurately reflects true public sentiment.

[YESvillages at gateway fields]

Ammendment 1.5 anyone?

[Pella]

Hate to burst your bubble Rick ol buddy but I am up here in northern Pinellas County organizing these folks into another division of scrappy POWW supporters. Teaching them all of our little tricks of the trade as it were.

Soon there will be a North and a South POWW. We are making good use of this time the Rays were so nicely forced to give us. We will not waste the opportunity. See you not at our next celebration party. POWW.

[Pella]

User fees! Let the baseball fans pay for the new stadium themselves. End of the dilema!

[Rick K]

Pella, you have not bursted my bubble.

I expect nothing from POWW other than a continuation of their campaign to inject as much dishonesty and confusion into the public debate as they possibly can.

However, the forces who will overcome their silly, immature attempts to win through theft and deception grow ever more powerful.

Time will tell who prevails!

[YESthe villages at gateway fields]

No MORE Rrrrrrrrickettes
Eliminate the slavish, unquestioning unquestionable parroting of this hack.

The Villages at Gateway Fields

[Pella]

Hey Rick K: User fees have not been mentioned to date and are a viable option for the baseball users to pay their own way. What is wrong with this idea? Add a buck or two to the tickets, parking and beer, etc. and raise the money that way. If you did, you and your ilk would not have to play the part of a roadside bum constantly asking others for money.

Instead of just trying to lampoon everyone, why not answer the dang question?

Its about user fees in case you forgot.

[The REAL Rick K]

Pella, I already answered your question.

First, monies collected from Rays game attendees was the single largest source of funding contributions in the proposed financing plan.

And I think that is appropriate.

I think adding user fees would be fine.

But, as I view a Waterfront stadium as also having OTHER benefits, beyond those which accrue to the Team and those who attend games, I think it is reasonable and fair that others who share in these benefits should share the cost of this valuable revenue-generating community amenity.

I believe that a waterfront stadium as proposed by the Rays would be a very effective tourism attractor. The Rays are in the Tourism business, and their efforts result in more free media exposure than anything else going on in Pinellas.

For this reason, I think it makes great sense to fund a portion of the public portion of stadium costs from the Optional Tourism Marketing taxes that will be paid almost entirely by people who do not live in Pinellas County.

Additionally, since I believe it is clear that the Rays contribute significant economic benefits to the City, I think it is appropriate that some of the City Sales taxes generated by the Rays (and the Trop Field redevelopment) also be used to help fund the public investment in this public-private partnership.

The Price Waterhous Coopers study of the Rays economic impact found that the Rays contribute $112 million per year to the local economy, and that amount should increase by about $60 million per year with a new stadium like the one the Rays proposed.

To me, it's a no brainer that the City should use some of it's sales tax revenues (less than the amount of City sales tax revenues generated by the Rays) to pay for a portion of the stadium.

As for the idea of essentially trading the current remaining city/county portion of debt on the Trop for identical debt on a new stadium, that is brilliant as well, because it represents expenditures that would be laid out no matter what.

So, Pella, my answer is that I think USER fees are great.

But I think the best plan is to have public ownership of a waterfront stadium, constructed with a mixture of public and private funds.

[YES villages at gateway fields]

"monies collected from game attendees the largest source"

FALSE

"Rays are in the tourism
business"

INSANLY FALSE

"more free media than anything else going on in Pinellas"

DISREGARD OF ECONOMIC REALITY
Free to whom? 100 million?
State,County,Local and innumerable unfunded private entities beg to differ.

"a mixture of public and private funds"

one glimpse of reality here.
the relative proportions of that mixture will determine voters trust of any subsequent proposal.
That first attempt will cost the Rays substantially more next time.

[Rick K to]

YES, I am sorry to be the one to tell you this. But your 11:36 post offers little but silliness.

Which group do you believe would have paid the largest portion of funding for a waterfront stadium, under the financing outline presented by the Rays, if not game attendees of the Rays?

Why do you dispute what nearly every serious economist admits, Professional baseball, just like our beaches, is a tourism industry. At the VERY LEAST, you must admit that SOME tourism dollars are generated by the Rays.

Free public media is the following: Newspaper articles, website stories, radio discussions, TV programming, magazine articles which mention the City/Region, without the Rays having to pay money to the publishers for the mention.

VILLAGES at Toytown, are you really that dense that you want us to believe that mentions and images on Sports Center or bylines in the Chicago Tribune and Boston Hearald are not "free media?"

As for your last point, you may or may not be right.

I would imagine the Rays would be willing to contribute more than they had already offered.

On the other hand, if ToyTown costs $100 Million More, I think the Rays would be right to say they aren't coming up with extra money to play at a less ideal location.

[YES villages at gateway fields]

Like the Rays, you do not have the slightest interest in or knowledge of the local economy OUTSIDE BASEBALL.

"the Rays are in the tourism business" was YOUR inane pronouncement.

The Rays themselves though full of overeaching wouldn't
step SO firmly on the toes of
a potential dancing partner.

MLB and the many fans might be interested to hear that baseball is secondary to tourism in the Rays priorities. That WOULD explain that very long losing streak.

[Rick K to "YES to ToyTown"]

The Rays are in the business of drawing fans to watch their baseball team put on events that are described as either entertainment or recreation, but which are part of the tourism industry.

The rest of your post is just goofy and filled with wild fantasy.

[Susie Q]

I hear North Pinellas County residents are organizing. Ah-oh!