Setting the stage: Hines vs. Archstone

Here's a tale of the tape on each project. You can see more about the projects in an interactive display we created here.

Hines

• Retail --- 790,000 square feet
• Office --- 600,000 square feet
• Residential --- 1,591,296 square feet
• Hotel --- 125,000 square feet
• Phasing --- Six phases over six years
• Purchase price --- $60.64-million ($19.52/sq ft)

Other notes. Hines agrees to pay an additional $20/sq ft. for any construction that occurs beyond what's listed above. Hines will pay $5-million toward demolition of Tropicana Field, and would accept full responsibility if the city could provide additional existing conditions documentation. Hines not willing to guarantee tax revenues or pay for environmental remediation. Developer says project will create 3,172 net new jobs and $4.3-million in new city taxes a year at build out. Hines also wants to purchase city parcel just east of Trop site for an additional $1.57-million.

Archstone-Madison

• Retail --- 1,126,000 square feet
• Office --- 800,000 square feet
• Residential --- 3,162,850 square feet
• Hotel --- 360,000 square feet
• Phasing --- Three phases over 10 to 13 years
• Purchase price --- $65-million ($11.93/sq ft)

Other notes. Will pay $5-million toward Trop demolition. Remainder comes off purchase price. Will not pay environmental remediation. No tax revenue guarantees. Would guarantee up to 1-million square feet of retail construction as part of Phase 1. Developer says project would create 5,574 net new jobs and an additional $7.4-million a year in city taxes at buildout.

Comments

[John]

Aaron, you forgot to mention both developers are asking the city finance the deal in payments.

Neither developer is offering cash up front. So if things with the economy & real estate market get even more sour, what's to stop either developer from defaulting on the purchase, again, leaving the city holding the "bag".

[Aaron Sharockman]

Both projects are willing to guarantee the land purchase price (in phases)

Archstone Madison says their guarantee is based on Phase I financing. Hines says its guarantee is subject to the approval of something called a private investment committee.

But remember, it doesn't really matter. The key here is can the payments cover the debt at the Trop as the Rays and city say it must. Neither offer, as of yet, covers the entire debt. But the city thinks it can get there. We'll see.

[Rick K]

Aaron thanks again (for not the last time) for doing such excellent work. Kudos to you and all at the Times who have done so much to provide so much valuable information to the public.

[Rick K]

Following up on an observation Gary Grooms offered previously:

If all these ANTI's who are so habitually quick to automatically disbelieve experts on nearly every topic, including subjects that the individual has virtually no expertise in do the same thing in their daily lives, I am confused as to how they function.

I generally believe that full time professional fire fighters know better than I do about how best to put out a fire and so on.

I generally believe that surgeons know more about surgery than I do.

I generally believe that parking experts know more about assessing parking needs downtown than I do.

I generally believe that environemental experts know more about assessing environmental concerns than I do.

I generally believe that people who derive their livelihood from attracting people to Major League Baseball games know more about how best to do that than I know.

I generally believe that professional, real estate developers who have a track record of success and the ability to gather a billion dollars in private investment funds know a few things more about how to determine the value of land and devise a timeline and so on.

I generally believe that about most things. The only times I tend to question expert opinions is when I have a sound knowledge base for doing so, or when there are very obvious facts known to me which seem to contradict the experts.

The latter case often makes me investigate further, whereupon I usually figure out that I was wrong, and the experts were right.

I wonder, seriously, why the ANTI's do not see the world this way. I wonder why their belief system informs them that they are likely to be right and the experts are likely to be wrong, nearly every time.

[Thomas]

I generally believe that Rick is a hack and a fraud.

I generally believe that Rick's posts are best read as comic strips.

I generally believe that there are many decaf brands on the market that are just as tastey as the real thing.

[Clear Direction]

Rick K,

I Generally believe that people who wish to promote a project which will make them millions of dollars that they will retain experts who will fabricate whatever conclusion benefits the entity which commissions the study!

[Rick K]

Clear Direction, say that again, please.

You believe that experts, who will lose their livelihood if they turn out to be wildly wrong, will make false claims about the environmental status of a property?

You believe that parking experts who only derive continuing income as long as they produce credible reports (which are easily checked against actual performance of their predictions) will willingly risk EVERYTHING so that a single client will get rich?

You believe that people who are professionals and who are likely to lose their jobs or find their future earnings severely hampered will happily throw their professional weight behind losing propositions?

Okay.

Just so we know what your clear direction is....

[Clear Direction]

I also gennerally believe that the Rays time table is too short to comprehensivley evaluate a proposal of this magnatude.

I also generally believe, that the Rays srtategy of witholding all subtantive information until the very last possible moment in the hopes that the City & County will " Kick the Can down the Road" will not be successful.

I further generally believe, that the majority of voters will soundly defeat a November ballot question just as they always have.

[Sue]

How about those Uhurus? We haven't stopped laughing since yesterday when we read this about their protest for the police shooting of, apparently, an armed, threatening teenager: The notice says the ballpark plans and the shooting are "part of efforts to gentrify and disperse the historically African community and turn St. Petersburg into an enclave for wealthy white people." Omali says NO NEW WATERFRONT $TADIUM. Bet that kind of bites Mayor Ricky in the butt.

[Clear Direction]

Rick k,

I DO for clarification beleive that almost any position is able to be justified with a study.

I beleive my point can be illistrated by all of the studies (many of which you site) showing "stadia" benefit the comminities in which they are built. And an equal or prehaps larger number which conclude the opposite.

[Rick K]

To the person posting at 2:20 pm as "Sue."

Please take your odd racist rants to a different blog where people enjoy reading about you laughing at "those Uhurus."

[Rick K]

Clear Direction:

Two things amuse me about your assertion at 2:22 pm.

The first is that you ignore my principle question, which is what are the odds that ALL the experts would be wrong and laymen are right on practically EVERY issue?

The second thing that amuses me is your contention that "an equal or prehaps larger number which conclude the opposite."

That assertion is not supported by the actual facts.

Would one of you people who keeps telling this lie PLEASE do some ACTUAL fresh research.

Don't quote ANYONE who claims that stadiums don't make money. Don't believe anyone I point you to who says the opposite.

Instead, do this.

Go online, find the list of Professors in the Economics department at UF, FSU, Miami, or MIT.

Send them each a brief email asking them if the following statement is true or false:

"There is near unanimity among economists that public investment in pro sports facilities nearly always produce net negative economic costs in excess of their benefits."

Ask about 12 or 25 professors at one or two colleges (but don't start at the ones on your list, choose a respected school about whom you know nothing in regards to what the faculty think on this issue).

Do that research, then come back here and report.

Because what you are going to find is that the single biggest lie in this debate is that there are "an equal or prehaps larger number which conclude the opposite."

[John]

Rick K, we have learned one thing in this whole experiment, if nothing else.

You have no life. ;)

[Paul]

I have a little stadium blog riddle for you:

Q - What weight more? A pound of Rick K's brain or a pound of dog poo?

A - Neither. Their both a pound of doo.

[Ray F]

Clear,

Ask any Bostonian what Fenway means to them. Ask anyone from Chicago what Wrigley means to them. Ask Yankees fans what the House that Ruth built means to them.

Busch Stadium in St Louis. The Astro Dome. Old Comiskey Park. The Polo Grounds.

Sometimes the benefit isn't measurable in dollars and cents. You can't put a price tag on how much your mother means to you. Even though to somebody else, she may be just another recipient of a middle finger on US19.

Ballparks can tie a community together. Even if you are a casual fan (1-5 games a year), if Carl Crawford legs out a first inning RBI Triple, chances are the guy next to you or behind you will give you a high five.

When was the last time you were walking in a park and someone gave you a high five because they painted the beches??? You'd probably pepperspray the freak.

[Thomas]

Rick,

Here's my report:

All independent research and university economists agree that stadiums don't make money. In fact, quite often then end up in the red.

The only reports that claim economic gain are prepared by MLB or by firms retained by MLB.

[Clear Direction]

All,

I understand all of the arguments being made for the staduim.

However, I do not share your excitement for the proposal.

For me it comes down to this.

Not on the Waterfront.

Not with 67% Public Funds (I consider the sale of public assets to be a public contribution)

I enjoy games as much as the next guy.

I don't want the team to go. Mr. Sternberg has promised that they they won't. and I choose to beleive he is a man of his word.

[Ray F]

Clear,

If they do build the new park on the waterfront, would you go to opening day???

Would you go to any games???

Would you never buy another shred of Rays gear???

Would you never watch a telecast???

Would building the stadium make the team any less than your hometown team???

[Will Ferrell]

COWBELL BREAK! Let's all take a second and admire the Cowbell for what it represents.

Okay.

Now back to our petty bickering....

[John]

Ray F

If your question is open for anyone to respond, I'll go for it.

No, I would not go to any games. I do now, roughly 15-20 a year.

No, no more gear for my kids. You know why? I will no longer see the Rays organization as a role model for my kids, by raping public coffers to enrich themselves. That is not a character trait I wish to instill in my kids.

No, I would not watch it on TV. Let's be honest, watching baseball on TV is about as exciting as watching shuffleboard.

The Rays do not define nor brand St. Petersburg and the entire area. The city's character, beautifull waterfront and beaches do. And they always will.

(and Rick K, I don't care to hear your 3000 word, 14 paragraph response to my opinion or motives)

[Thomas]

My name is Thomas, and I'm a petty bickering addict.

I have tried to do more productive things with my time, but I always find myself drifting back to petty bickering.

Can Petty Bickering Anonymous help me?

Please PBA - I have a problem.

[Ray F]

John,

When was the last time you went for a swim at the pier beach??? Or spa beach???

If recently, what do you usually wear to games??? I'd rather not touch you with a high-five.

Maybe a lot of you don't realize that the water in Tampa Bay is nasty. I wouldn't jump in it if I was on fire.

I don't think the Rays are raping public funds. How is the public benefitting from them taking up 85 acres of land when they can be down the road taking up 15 on a plot of land you couldn't walk across today anyway???

[Ray F]

Thomas,

We at PBA can help.

With our extensive rehabilitation program, you can be agreeing with people from all walks of life in no time.

Here at the PBA we put the utmost emphasis on one-to-one consultations and therapy sessions.

Our therapists are trained in the art of passive argument techniques.

Some of our clientelle that have chosen to participate in our yearly symposiums include:

Mikael Gorbachev
Tina Turner
R Kelly

The list is far too long for somebody like me who doesn't get bothered by specifics...

[Thomas]

John,

I saw a disk land completely within the small triangular tip zone without touching any part of the borders of the triangle, it was worth 10 big points for the shooter!

Then the next shuffle went completely within the trapezoidal second tier of the triangle, it was worth another 8 points!

SHUFFLEBOARD EXTRA FRAMES on DirecTV in HD is madhouse fun! You'll pay for your whole seat --- but you only need the edge!

[John]

Ray F

It's too bad you think our water is so toxic. That's unfortunate.

Yes, I have a boat and go to the Bayou Grande sandbar almost every weekend. Maybe you've never heard of it, but every weekend over 100 boaters bring their dogs, their kids, etc and play in those toxic Tampa Bay waters.

How many cities have a beach on their downtown Ray? How many have a giant pool, open to the public, right on the water, Ray?

The Rays are not the end-all thing to do in this town. You're obviously not a native, like myself.

And no, neither me, my kids or any of my neighbors have ever gotten green hair or violent illnesses from swimming in our bay.