Rays' newfound success brings parking mess

(MARTHA RIAL / Times)

ST. PETERSBURG — The Tampa Bay Rays' newfound success and popularity have created a parking nightmare around Tropicana Field, city officials say.

Fans park anywhere they can, and often illegally: on private property, in front of fire hydrants, in handicap spaces. Property owners are getting in on the action and charging fans to park on their land, sometimes illegally.

"It's a free-for-all," said City Council member Leslie Curran, who owns an art gallery near the stadium.

Cristina Silva, Times Staff Writer

Fans also are filling up the two-hour street spaces near Tropicana Field on game nights, despite risking a $17.50 parking ticket.

"We give out hundreds of tickets per game, but it really hasn't had any effect on people," said Joe Kubicki, the city's transportation director.

On a recent Saturday night, fans packed the dome to see the Rays beat the Toronto Blue Jays. A postgame concert by '90s rap star MC Hammer helped draw hordes of people.

The city wrote 297 tickets that night. Of those, 233 involved expired meters, with 55 on Central Avenue alone.

In comparison, the city doled out only 124 tickets for a Rays-Red Sox matchup on a Saturday in July last year. About 100 involved expired meters.

"It's horrible," said Erica Adkins, manager of Cafe Bohemia on Central Avenue, who now rides her bicycle to work on game nights to avoid the frenzy. "All the street parking on Central will be full, but it will be dead in here all night long because there is nowhere for our customers to park."

Tropicana Field boasts 7,000 parking spaces. The city has issued permits for at least 2,000 other spaces on private property near the stadium.

But with more than 30,000 fans turning out for Rays games against the Red Sox and the Chicago Cubs this season, parking within easy walking distance of the stadium is at a premium.

The city is considering increasing code enforcement and police patrols in the area on game nights. The city has even created a baseball parking page on its Web site reminding fans to "only park in legal spaces."

Property owners who want to rent out parking spaces must apply for a $200 permit. The city has issued 28 permits for temporary parking lots near Tropicana Field, up from 18 last year.

"On some nights, I've got people offering me $50 to park," said Jim Anson, owner of Food Wholesalers on 19th Street S who legally rents out his company's parking lot on a sliding scale. "I have to tell them, 'No, I don't have any more spaces.'"

Illegal parking lots are shut down immediately, said Gary Bush, the city's code compliance operations manager.

Jason Sanchez charges drivers $5 to $20, depending on the demand to park at his vacant lot along Central. Before the real estate bust, his family planned to build a condominium there. This month, they applied for a temporary parking permit. Now the lot produces up to $1,260 a night during popular games.

"It helps with our property taxes," Sanchez said.

Comments

[John]

Thanks Cristina for showing that even the Trop doesn't have adequate parking.

Imagine if that ridiculous sailboat with NO parking was actually built.

Like us "ANTI's" have been saying for months, it would have SUFFOCATED the downtown waterfront.

[Rick K]

There is NOTHING in Christina's article which adds credibility to any of bogus claims POWW and the ANTI's made about parking at a new waterfront stadium with additions to downtown parking.

There are more than a dozen MLB stadiums in downtown urban areas that have far greater parking shortages than those in St. Pete. So POWW and the ANTI's were just making up fantasies.

The situation in Christina's article is simple, really. The City seeks to regulate something without devoting the resources required to adequately do the job. I have been to a half dozen Rays games this year during which trips the person driving opted to park in some improper place.

No one has died because of it.

And it is the same for Rays games now as it is for 4th of July downtown, the race, RibFest, and any number of other major downtown events.

The same thing happens when I go to a schoolwide program at my kid's school, or arrive late to just about any High School sporting event in this county! The same thing happens at Little League games, dance recitals, band contests, and nearly any weekend on the beach! When drivers perceive that the added hassle of finding a "legal" parking space is too high, they will improvise and park wherever.

I would argue that Christina's article actually supports the contentions of we pro-stadium folks who argued that the three years of stadium construction would permit the City to effect more solutions than currently exist!

[Thomas]

Rick, that is the saddest spin job I've ever seen. Let's go to the highlights:

"There are more than a dozen MLB stadiums in downtown urban areas that have far greater parking shortages than those in St. Pete. So POWW and the ANTI's were just making up fantasies"
- So if other cities have parking shortages also, then St. Pete doesn't have a parking problem? There's a finite amount of parking shortages, so if another area has one - you have to subtract one? Amazing logic. Simply stunning.

"I have been to a half dozen Rays games this year during which trips the person driving opted to park in some improper place. No one has died because of it."
- So if no one dies, then there is not a parking problem? Improper parking because there is a parking shortage means that no one dies so there is no shortage? Again, this is a truly mind numbing form of argument.

"And it is the same for Rays games now as it is for 4th of July downtown, the race, RibFest, and any number of other major downtown events."
- Therefore, if other events have a parking shortage, the Rays do not really have a parking shortage? This is getting worse, not better.

"The same thing happens when I go to a schoolwide program at my kid's school, or arrive late to just about any High School sporting event in this county!"
- If there is a parking shortage in other places, it's ok for the Rays to have one also? Wait, that would mean there is a parking problem; and that would contradict your previous argument that it was a fantasy.

"I would argue that Christina's article actually supports the contentions of we pro-stadium folks" - Of course you would. You're a fringe lunatic and stadium-at-any-cost nut case.

People were concerned about parking downtown. This article completely validates that concern. Your spin job sure is amusing, but in the end it's just another example of how poorly conceived that waterfront plan was. Not coincidently, that plan was shut down completely.

[Mal]

Finally Rick K admits there is a parking shortage. Notice he cites weekend/holiday events to make his case but fails to recognize the conflict with business day traffic. No Rick don't tell me it's mostly night games.The idea that business people leave exactly at 5 and the garages will be empty a ready for the baseball fans by 6 (so they can get to a 7pm game)doesn't fly.

[Thomas]

His spin job is sadder than ever.

What a blowhard.

[Rick K about traffic]

Mal, as you have previously identified yourself as speaking on behalf of POWW or in alignment with them, I will respond thusly.

We ALL understand and accept that CURRENT parking availability for a proposed waterfront stadium would be less than optimal for the increased close-in loads from having an MLB stadium at the site of Al Lang.

What POWW did is something entirely different.

Most reasonable people believed that the City, the Rays, and private businesses could make sufficient additions and alterations to the city's inventory of parking spaces prior to the opening of a new stadium, resulting in a manageable integration of the Rays new stadium into future traffic and parking flows.

POWW and their various sycophantic ANTI's tried to take the position that NO IMPROVEMENTS would generate an outcome that was acceptable. The POWW Mantra was that parking on the waterfront would be unbearable, period.

Further, POWW attacked the process. The Rays engaged one of the country's most accomplished organizations with a great deal of success in performing and managing traffic and parking studies and infrastructure improvements. This Parking Consultant prepared a Preliminary report of their findings from studying the St. Pete traffic and parking situations and projections.

This Report was submitted to the City, who in turn engaged experts to analyze the Report by the Ray's experts. The findings of these experts were returned to the Rays, who had their parking experts analyze the reply and respond in detail to the many different topics and concerns.

The process was responsive, credible, and progressive, and would have most probably, had it continued, resulted in signfificant improvements to the parking and traffic flow conditions downtown.

POWW, of course, sought to undermine that process.

POWW did not seek to participate in the process to improve traffic and parking downtown - they sought to stop the process, so that they could continue to moan that we couldn't build a stadium at the Al Lang site, because of the traffic and parking problems it would cause.

I know, Mal, that POWW thinks they have achieved victory here. Over time, we may in fact end up with a new stadium somewhere other than Al Lang. That uncertain future, however, does not intimidate people like me into forgetting what POWW did.

Never in the history of St. Pete has a single political minority faction engaged in a more dishonorable campaign to deceive the public and interfere with democracy.

POWW may be sipping champagne. But others of us have not forgotten.

[Thomas]

Let's play Spot the Inconsistency:

"Most reasonable people believed that the City, the Rays, and private businesses could make sufficient additions and alterations to the city's inventory of parking spaces prior to the opening of a new stadium"

"And it is the same for Rays games now as it is for 4th of July downtown, the race, RibFest, and any number of other major downtown events... The same thing happens at Little League games, dance recitals, band contests, and nearly any weekend on the beach!"

So, Kook Aid - your assertion is that it's reasonable to believe adjustments would be made to ease congestion while at the same time saying congestion is inevitable. Further, you contest that parking has been a problem in downtown for years yet now it's reasonable to assume that it will be corrected via a new stadium.

Truly, yours is a dizzying intellect.

[Thomas]

Let's play Spot the Inconsistency:

"Most reasonable people believed that the City, the Rays, and private businesses could make sufficient additions and alterations to the city's inventory of parking spaces prior to the opening of a new stadium"

"And it is the same for Rays games now as it is for 4th of July downtown, the race, RibFest, and any number of other major downtown events... The same thing happens at Little League games, dance recitals, band contests, and nearly any weekend on the beach!"

So, Kook Aid - your assertion is that it's reasonable to believe adjustments would be made to ease congestion while at the same time saying congestion is inevitable. Further, you contest that parking has been a problem in downtown for years yet now it's reasonable to assume that it will be corrected via a new stadium.

Truly, yours is a dizzying intellect.

[Native]

Great job by the Times, a month ago the Times is ripping St. Pete and the Bay Area for not coming out and supporting the 1st place Rays. Now the fans are believing in the Rays, supporting the team by showing up and they come up with this masterpiece about the parking. There is plenty of parking at the Trop, some choose to take their chances of saving $10 parking illegally and risking a $17.50 ticket.

[Don Mott]

Dear Rick K., I guess that is how they came up with ONLY 2500 available spaces, which BTW are city owned. And that is why they came up about $45 million short on estimated parking revenue. Because they were well on their way to figuring it out, right? "Never in the history of St. Pete has a single political minority faction engaged in a more dishonorable campaign to deceive the public and interfere with democracy." Can you explain how you know this since you have been a resident for what? 5 or 6 years. Have you studied the entire history of St. Petersburg? "Most reasonable people believed that the City, the Rays, and private businesses could make sufficient additions and alterations to the city's inventory of parking spaces prior to the opening of a new stadium, resulting in a manageable integration of the Rays new stadium into future traffic and parking flows." Any reason why they haven't done that yet considering Tropicana has 7,000 spaces and it is still causing problems? Sorry Rick K. but your arguments are hollow.

[John]

I am in tears laughing at Rick K's posts. Dude, you truly have gone round the bend with those gems.

How do you explain this quote, Rick?

"It's horrible," said Erica Adkins, manager of Cafe Bohemia on Central Avenue, who now rides her bicycle to work on game nights to avoid the frenzy. "All the street parking on Central will be full, but it will be dead in here all night long because there is nowhere for our customers to park."

We "ANTI's" have been saying for MONTHS now that a ballpark downtown will choke the life out of downtown businesses, and we continue to feed you and your ilk proof of that.

Rick K what do you say to this woman Erica who has to ride her bike to get to work and then stand around an empty business while the self-contained mini-city the Rays built sucks the life from her business by eliminating all the parking spaces?

Remember all that talk about people strolling to the game, stopping off at local businesses to patronize them before or after the game? It was all lies, Rick. You know it and we know it.

We were wrong about one thing Rrrrrick, you don't work for the Rays. The Rays would never hire someone as idiotic as yourself to promote their business plan.

By the way, Rick, what happened to your fan club? You seem to be the only one left spouting this crap. What happened to Rays Mike, Ray F, Colorado Snowbird, Observer, et al....did they by chance come to their senses?

But please do keep on with the POWW paranoia, it's great entertainment.

[Thomas]

Erica is a LIAR!

Her objective is to obfuscate, distract, distort, exxagerate, and deceive.

If Adkins doesnt know that the Rays HELP her business, she is ignorant. If she does know, then she is LYING!

[Sabine]

I may be missing something here... there are 9,000 DEDICATED parking spaces (7,000 on site, and 2,000 nearby, set aside by the City) at the Trop. And people are still forced to eat up all street parking, park on peoples' lawns, and generally destroy the quality of life for everyone who lives or has a business in the area.

Rick K, why do you want to destroy beautiful, downtown St. Petersburg? Do you live in Tampa? Will you move back to NY, after your team gets its pound of flesh?

[Sabine]

Thomas, did you really write that, possibly libelous, stuff about Erica Adkins?? It sounds more like Rick K. Do you feel the same way about Leslie Curran, who also has a business out there, and feels it's a "free-for-all."

[Thomas]

Pssst - Sabine

It was a joke. A satirical play on Rick's favorite phrases against the backdrop of someone disagreeing with his opinion being incompetent or willingly inaccurate.

[John]

BOOOM, Outta Here!!

Just getting it in now because I've got a Rays game to watch...

[Pella]

Let's remember that all of the existing parking in St. Pete is generally being used as we speak. To think that whatever amount of parking can be added up into some sort of Ray's statistic and that it is simply sitting there, vacant, waiting for Ray's use is simply demented.

Most of the parking spaces in St. Pete have an owner, user, customer, visitor, employee, shopper or delivery person using it. When the baseball fans pull up they displace the users listed above.

But, according to Rick K. that is OK. Those are RAY'S PARKING SPACES don't you know!

Let's all be thankful that God has blessed the Rays baseball team with a few good victories of late causing larger than normal crowds to attend causing larger than normal parking issues. Now it is clear for all to see that putting this amount of parking, or more, downtown, would be a collossal mistake.

No NEW Waterfront Stadium.

Go POWW.

Keep up the good work.

[Don in St. Pete]

Rick K., There is no proposed waterfront stadium. It's now called NO WATERFRONT STADIUM, and if the phony baloney ABC, try to go there they will get the same answer from the MAJORITY of St. Pete residents. Maybe you should consider developing the empty space between your PAIRED ears Rick.

[Rick K]

LMHO!

[Don in St. Pete]

Must be a lot of echoing going on inside there.

[Bobby Fenton]

These comment threads are becoming a complete farce because you guys are obsessed with Rick K. Every time I think I'm about to read some discussion on one of the posts, it's the same 6 or 7 people howling about Rick's latest post. It's like, no matter what the individual toipic of the post was to start, it doesn't matter because it always comes back to the same thing. Now I'm not here to specifically defend Rick as much as to point out how ridiculous it maes the rest of you look. Get past it.

As far as this parking story, what a complete and utter waste of time. No reason it even needed to be printed. About 75% of the home games come and go with parking in the main centerfield lot still under capacity, so you can almost always park there. On the certain nights like Saturday's where the crowd gets up over 30 grand, you have to work a little harder, but there are still plenty of places if you don't mind walking a little bit. And Rick K wasn't toally out of left field - when there is a large crowd of people anywhere it can often be difficult to park. It's a novel concept for St. Peterheads I know.

Those who park illegally want to take a chance that they may pull it off, I've got no problem with that, but they aren't forced to either. I can't believe we're even talking about this as if 1) it's a big deal and 2) it has anything to do with a new stadium, which, I may remind people like Pella and the rest of you close-minded naysayers, is no longer about the waterfront.

The comfort I take is that, again, it's the same 6 or 7 names commenting here all the time. I hold out hope that the outlook for the greater Tampa Bay area in general is more promising than the garbage this group spews forth.

[Don Mott]

Dear Bobby Fenton, If I'm not mistaken you are from Hillsborough County right? So just how much knowledge of parking downtown do you possess? Are you stating that the busines owners, including a council member, quoted in the article were lying?

[Bobby Fenton]

No, I'm not accusing anybody of lying, Don. I'm just saying that this kind of stuff is pretty normal. We've been sheltered from it because before this year, the Rays had like 3 sellouts in their entire history, and nowadays there are bigger crowds, at least for some games. But this isn't anything that any other place with a ballpark doesn't deal with.

And if it is happening more often than on just nights with large crowds, I would then contend that the problem has little do do with a "parking shortage" because, again, that gigantic lot on the outfield side of the dome has spaces left to spare almost all the time.

Yes I am from Hillsborough, but I go to games every week, inclduing about 15 so far this year. So during the times in question, I have spent plenty of time around the Trop.

[Don Mott]

So Bobby, If there are spaces in the Tropicana lot can you tell me why people would park blocks away and hike to the stadium while risking a parking ticket that costs more than the parking fee? And please tell us how the situation would be any better without those 7,000 spaces if the new park was to be built downtown. That was, afterall the original argument.

[Bobby Fenton]

"So Bobby, If there are spaces in the Tropicana lot can you tell me why people would park blocks away and hike to the stadium while risking a parking ticket that costs more than the parking fee?"

Well, my argument is that I don't grant the premise that this is happening all that often. I can't prove it, but I'm willing to bet that this story is centered around and cites anecdotal evidence from people whose experiences, I suspect, are being drawn from a handful of games. You can't convince me this is a nightly problem when we just came off a homestand out of the all-star break where only one game got above 25,000 people. Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees, or a Saturday night - then yeah I can see this stuff happening.

Also, the main lot does cost $10. If someone thinks they're parking for free on the street, they may still want to try to beat it. I personally find it pretty surprising that St. Pete still requires meters to be fed on weekends and after work hours. I think that's wrong. Whether people make the same assumption and don't know they need to pay or are just trying to get away with one, I don't know.

As far as the once propsed waterfront park, I don't argue that more walking would be involved, which I personally think is fine, but I also think the Rays would've had to have caved and agreed to put up that garage to pad the numbers too. I just didn't see parking as a dealbreaker for the entire plan.

[get-smart]

Great argument. So the Rays fans are stiffing the city out of a parking fee. They then park in front of this ladies coffee shop for three hours and she loses business and you say "So what!"

I said months ago that Rays fans make bad neighbors and this bares it out.

Bobby you may be a Tampon, but at least you go to the games.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Bobby,

I understand your post about our obsessing with Rick K. Quite honestly Rick K. is our entertainment. I sometimes wonder if Rick K. is not a Ray's plant but rather a Times plant to keep us all entertained. Reading that pompous, arrogant, condescending blather from such a supercilious idiot does provide some of us with entertainment value...I know we need to get a life. LOL

But now for your genuine arguments and what you consider to be thoughtful posts. First off you must realize that as someone who makes his living from covering the Rays your opinion is absolutely prejudiced! Secondly as someone who lives in Hillsborough you have nothing on the line financially.
Finally as someone who lives in Tampa and finds it enjoyable (I presume you're not a captive there) you are TOTALLY out of synch with what the majority of citizens of St. Pete enjoy.
We don't really crave your traffic jams, lack of waterfront parks...and well I could go on but it's not really relevant. Let's just say we don't want to be Tampa west. That's why most of us CHOOSE to live in St. Petersburg.
All of this doesn't mean you are not entitled to your opinion, just realize that your opinion is incredibly biased from your line of work, your choice of where to live, and the fact that you won't have to pay for ANY of it.

I could respect you a lot more if you simply went for the obvious argument. Since Tampa is already a cluttered nightmare why not simply lobby to have the Rays move to Tampa. That's the best of all worlds. You could pay for it...of course according to Rick K you would actually earn a 100 million each year...you could put up with the traffic and parking issues. NOBODY can deny these are issues.

In the meantime Bobby I suspect if you wish to appear intelligent you'll stop with the Ad Hominem attacks on St. Petersburg residents who are not baseball fan(atic)s like yourself. Folks who don't earn their living from reporting on baseball. Comments like..
"It's a novel concept for St. Peterheads I know."
"it has anything to do with a new stadium, which, I may remind people like Pella and the rest of you close-minded naysayers, is no longer about the waterfront."

Bobby try this link to America's most livable cities to see how the rest of the country views Tampa/St. Petersburg
http://www.mostlivable.org/general/st.-petersburg-the-colors-of-st.-pete.html
You'll see that Tampa is NOT EVEN LISTED...ST. Petersburg is in the top ten and if you read why you'll see that NOWHERE IS BASEBALL EVEN MENTIONED.

[since1962]

MR Fenton and other luminaries

Your defense is pitiful!!

The LEGAL parking is NOT full YET....
IDOT IRRESPONSIBLE FANS WILL PARK ANYWHERE TO GET THEIR FIX

DESTROY OUR DOWNTOWN BUSINESSES IN THE PROCESS...

PUT NEW STADIUM AT TOYTOWN DUMP AND REOPEN TOYTOWN FOR TRASH COLLECTION!

Enough compromise and resonable consideration of opposing viewpoints....

Get these idiots as FAR AWAY as POSSIBLE

[since1962]

Joe Kubikis and the citys 'master parking/traffic' plan is unraveling as the petty revenue generating ploy it is.

$200 temporary parking lot permits issued UP substantially...

Parking meters Everywhere...

Traffic Tickets issued UP...

Two way street(s) conversions of once free flowing ONE WAY FEEDERS intentionally slowing,congesting and confusing traffic....

Is this really the BEST WE can do?

Joe & Co. claim they don't know what to do....
I say staff knows EXACTLY what they are doing and it must STOP!

If Rays fans and other visitors are NOT being coerced into this petty revenue net and illegal parking by OUR STAFF then adequate solutions must be found by RESPONSIBLE COMPETENT LEADERS.

[Native]

1962....the trop lots have not been to capacity any game that I have been to this year, 20+ including the sat concerts, boston, ny and cubs) even with the 4 and its free offer. sometimes I choose to park in a $10 lot on central as it is more convenient for me to walk to my car after I patronize some of the local business on central AFTER the game. some people just take the chances of parking illegally, it is up to the city to enforce this and this is not a trop or a Rays issue only, it happens at events all over the city and even at the boat ramps. as for the 2 way street conversion that slows traffic this has been pushed by downtown business for years, complaining that the 1 way streets moved traffic to fast to notice their business was even there.

[Mike]

Uh ... there's never really anybody at Cafe Bohemia. It's sad, because it's a cool place with good coffee.

[Bobby Fenton]

ATCC-

I'll address your points in order. First of all, am I biased as a baseball fan? Absolutely. No argument there. But am I biased based on my profession? Not a chance. In no way does my job affect my stance on this. Believe me, if I was doing anything else, I'd still feel the same way. I've been a sports fan my entire life. Plus, even if a stadium got either rubber stamped tomorrow or struck down completely, it would be at least 2012 by the time the team either moved to the new place or left town. They will be at the Trop for the next 4-5 years minimum no matter what, and who knows if I'll still be doing this by then anyway? I assure you that while I am passionate about the team, it's rooted in my being fan and not my gig. I promise you that.

As far as Tampa vs. St. Pete, believe me, my FIRST choice would be just what you suggest, to have it in Tampa. I've suggested that all along. Then the St. Pete folks freak out about the idea of Tampa "taking" the team. Well fine, but if you want the ballclub, you've got to deal with some stuff like this. And as far as "paying" for it? Please. I know much of it has to do with principle, but c'mon. Hillsborough approved the half cent sales tax back in 1996 for RJS, got that done, and this entire area is far better off for it, whether you like football or not. And who even notices the difference? I've never felt burdened by a stupid half penny per dollar. It's the cost of doing business (and being in radio I don't make all that much so don't think I'm rolling in it or anything). You guys act like it's some awful financial burden on each individual taxpayer. The government just blew $450 million on something 1000 times more trivial than a stadium even as I typed this post. At least this is good for our area.

Basically, I'm not here to argue against anyone's way of life in St. Pete. My only original point was parking at the Trop is so much more of a non-factor issue than this story makes it out to be. I just wish St. Pete would come up with solutions instead of problems and get it done, or otherwise let the team go to somewhere farther north in Pinellas or Hillsborough. Hopefully this committee will do something to sort all that out.

St. Pete needs to try harder or get out of the way, that's all I'm trying to say.

[Don Mott]

Bobby, Thanks for being congenial. The fact is though, the way to pay for the Rays stadium was highly questionable. The proposed site was, according to polls and citizens off limits. The Rays and the City sequestered in secret to come up with the proposal. As for the parking issue I would once again refer to the fact that you do not live in nor own a business in downtown. So please explain how you can speak for these folks when they say there is a problem. I am with you on one thing let the Rays go to Tampa. One less expense for the citizens of Pinellas. Maybe they can add another half cent tax while their infrastructure is crumbling.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Bobby,

Thanks for your honest and thoughtful reply. I don't mean to suggest that the cost to the taxpayer should be measured in our individual tax bills, although I'm sure there are plenty of posters who will disagree with both of us and say it IS more than simply a matter of principle and more than a simple 1/2 cent tax.

My point is actually directed more towards the opportunity cost. 300 million is a LOT of money that could buy more police protection, perhaps improve our park system, maybe deal with our homeless problem...well you get my drift..it's a lot of money.

A prime example of what to you is a meaningless cost to the taxpayer and society is the so called bed tax from the County that represents about 100 million of the tab as originally proposed by Mr. Kalt and the Rays. All the sports talk radio hosts laughed at our concern and said..we don't even have to pay it..it is a tax on the tourists. However that money is supposed to go to tourism one of our top industries. And our beach renourishment programs could be in danger and very soon at that. The Feds have been very generous with matching funds and we cannot assume that will go on forever. In fact in these tight budgetary times there are many respected politicians who believe that the rest of the country will eventually rebel at renourishing OUR beaches. There can be little doubt that the cost of renourishment is increasing exponentially regardless of Fed help or no Fed help. The cost of fuel has made the cost of renourishment triple and quadruple in recent years with no end in sight. This is just one example of what appears to be an INNOCENT expenditure of a tax that is paid for by tourists and not us actually having a huge impact. It's not simply being a naysayer to believe that overall the beaches draw more tourists than baseball.

And remember Bobby that is just one example. Meanwhile we have the Rays drawing well at the Trop because as we suspected the product is FAR more important than the stadium. Wrigley Field, Fenway Park have lasted generations. Alas my former home town Cincinnati caved to MLB and moved from Crosley Field to Riverfront. Now they along with the Bengals have two stadiums to join along with an indoor arena to make Cincinnati's waterfront look hideous..a wall of three stadiums blocking the skyline.

Just because the MLB slime like Bud Selig..see..http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE4D9123FF932A15751C1A9659C8B63
claim the NEED for a new stadium doesn't make it so. Really can anybody argue that watching a game in air conditioned comfort from nice state of the art seats at the Trop is such a "horrible" experience as to demonstrate true NEED. In fact it was just a little over a year ago that Mayor Baker an ardent supporter of the Rays wrote an oped piece in the Times praising the pleasure of watching a game in the Dome. We could be celebrating the unique challenges of the Dome and the home field advantage of things like the catwalks..much as Red Sox fans laugh at visiting left fielders misplaying balls off of the green monster. We could create a facility visiting tams dread and fans love.

Remember when the citizens of San Francisco stood up to the Giants and threats of moving..even here to the dome...and defeated the MLB on four referenda they got a decent deal...perhaps not totally privately financed but far better than our New York friends have offered.

[Jon McPhee]

Lest we forget, at least Sternberg and Co. always have something to fall back on...

Link: http://www.slate.com/id/2196393

today's business press
Wall Street Is Hiring!
By James Ledbetter
Posted Thursday, July 31, 2008, at 6:11 AM ET

That is the surprising conclusion of a CNNMoney story: While some 7,600 jobs have been slashed on the street in the past year, there is active recruitment going on, especially "at buy-side institutions like hedge funds looking to pick up talent on the cheap," notes writer David Ellis. The Financial Times agrees; it reports that Morgan Stanley chief John Mack is telling associates that the financial sector's recent tumult "is a historic opportunity to recruit bankers, traders and risk managers."

Ironically, there seems to be particular demand for bankers who got us into this credit mess in the first place, those with "experience dealing with some of the structured mortgage and credit products that have fueled billions of dollars in losses and writedowns at the nation's largest financial institutions." They would appear to be the only ones who know how to value these noxious financial instruments.

Outside Wall Street, however, the job environment remains cloudy. More than a few economic observers have asked themselves recently: If, as so many believe, the United States is in the midst of a recession, then why has there not been a major leap in unemployment? The New York Times has a grimly fascinating story that may help explain the anomaly: "The number of Americans who have seen their full-time jobs chopped to part time because of weak business has swelled to more than 3.7 million—the largest figure since the government began tracking such data more than half a century ago."

Involuntary part-time workers, you see, do not get measured as "unemployed." But they nonetheless represent what the Times calls "a stealth force that is eroding American spending power." Drilling a little deeper, the Times cites Labor Department figures indicating that men, and especially Hispanic men, are particular victims of these slow-motion layoffs: "Among those who were forced into part-time work from the spring of 2007 to the spring of 2008, 73 percent were men and 35 percent were Hispanic."

That, apparently, has to do with the decline in construction industry and other sectors that heavily employ Hispanics. In this election year, some observers think disproportionate economic hardship among Latinos will undermine John McCain's ability to woo that critical voting bloc.

In these lean times for consumers, it might appear counterintuitive that at least some credit card companies are cleaning up. It's easy to forget, but in March of this year, Visa pulled off the largest IPO in U.S. history. Today, the business press is filled with reports that Visa has announced a 41 percent hike in quarterly income over last year. How does that happen? Doesn't nearly everyone cut back spending when the economy sputters, and doesn't the credit crunch curtail Visa's ability to extend credit to its customers?

Not really because, despite popular perception, Visa is not a credit card firm. As MarketWatch succinctly explains: "Visa processes payments on debit cards and other types of payment cards and charges fees for these services. Unlike credit card companies, it doesn't lend money to anyone. That means it hasn't suffered as the global credit crunch begins to dent consumers' ability to repay debt." Moreover, ample evidence suggests that the more Americans suffer economically, the more debt they put on their credit cards. Visa gets a chunk of the transaction fees without having to assume the debt. Now that's a business to be in.

Unlike, say, the auto industry, which seems to rust by the day. The Detroit Free Press notes that GM is about to slash another 5,000 jobs by Nov. 1 from its depleted payroll and is scheduled to announce a "significant second quarter loss" on Friday. The Wall Street Journal reports that Chrysler, having recently pulled out of the once-lucrative leasing business, "is scrambling to slash costs and line up partnerships with foreign auto makers to shore up its finances amid a painful downturn in sales and a deteriorating outlook for the company."

Specifically, India's Tata and Italy's Fiat are mentioned as partners—none of the major American papers asks today why those companies are doing reasonably well when domestic dinosaurs are on the brink of extinction. Here's a hint from Honda, via Bloomberg: Build affordable cars that appeal to drivers in growing markets like Russia and China.

James Ledbetter is the editor of The Big Money, Slate's business site, which will launch later this year.

Copyright 2007 Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive Co. LLC

[Rick K]

LMHO!!!

[Rick K about the Mottster]

Some remarks....

The ANTI's continue to embrace all manner of untruths and fantasies. But first, props to Bobby Fenton and Mike for some good, thoughtful posts.

As to Don Mott. I have changed my view on him. I now believe he is an extremist nut job who is so unreasonable as to be unworthy of discourse. However, for those who might wish to discuss Ron's "contributions" without him, I will say this about his 7:36 pm post, above.

I find the whole of it to be fairly worthless.

Filled with poor judgement. Assumes facts not in evidence. Lacks logic. Focuses on irrelevant issues.

Don/Thomas/JudyII asserts (as fact) that the "citizens" said the waterfront site was off limits. That is a true claim, but not in the way Don/John/Jon intended.

A few citizens did say the waterfront site was off limits. But the same numbers say ANY site is off limits. These people are not a majority, and their view is the opposite of the view held by majorities. So it's just silly to assert that the highly vocal but very small minority are the definitive answer on this issue.

When Don says, "I am with you on one thing let the Rays go to Tampa. One less expense for the citizens of Pinellas. Maybe they can add another half cent tax while their infrastructure is crumbling."

That actually made me snort audibly. First, Don is one of a handful of nutjobs who think that the Rays cost the City's economy more than they attract or stimulate. And he THINKS his faulty understanding of economics (and his loving fantasy) should be our public policy. But what makes it REALLY funny is the line about the infrastructure "crumbling."

Crank government critics love that lie. There has never been a time in Tampa history when the "infrastructure" was in better shape. But Don pretends it is "crumbling."

To that, I say, "HA!"

[Rick K about the Mottster]

Some remarks....

The ANTI's continue to embrace all manner of untruths and fantasies. But first, props to Bobby Fenton and Mike for some good, thoughtful posts.

As to Don Mott. I have changed my view on him. I now believe he is an extremist nut job who is so unreasonable as to be unworthy of discourse. However, for those who might wish to discuss Ron's "contributions" without him, I will say this about his 7:36 pm post, above.

I find the whole of it to be fairly worthless.

Filled with poor judgement. Assumes facts not in evidence. Lacks logic. Focuses on irrelevant issues.

Don/Thomas/JudyII asserts (as fact) that the "citizens" said the waterfront site was off limits. That is a true claim, but not in the way Don/John/Jon intended.

A few citizens did say the waterfront site was off limits. But the same numbers say ANY site is off limits. These people are not a majority, and their view is the opposite of the view held by majorities. So it's just silly to assert that the highly vocal but very small minority are the definitive answer on this issue.

When Don says, "I am with you on one thing let the Rays go to Tampa. One less expense for the citizens of Pinellas. Maybe they can add another half cent tax while their infrastructure is crumbling."

That actually made me snort audibly. First, Don is one of a handful of nutjobs who think that the Rays cost the City's economy more than they attract or stimulate. And he THINKS his faulty understanding of economics (and his loving fantasy) should be our public policy. But what makes it REALLY funny is the line about the infrastructure "crumbling."

Crank government critics love that lie. There has never been a time in Tampa history when the "infrastructure" was in better shape. But Don pretends it is "crumbling."

To that, I say, "HA!"

[^SINCE1962]

1)SEVERE TAMPA FLOODING

next....

[^SINCE1962]

2 UNDRINKABLE 'POTABLE' WATER

[^SINCE1962]

Didn't move here from Ohio recently like you...

Grandparents in Tampa in 1940

'Infrastructure' includes more than that which is selelectivly touted by 'promoters' and politicans...

Perhaps it IS better than OHIO?

[SINCE1962]

THREAD SUBJECT

OUR CITY
OUR PARKING
OUR TRAFFIC
OUR STREETS

Rays created issue...

HOW WILL WE SOLVE IT?

TOYTOWN + RAYS = SOLVED

[Rick K]

Here is the issue of this thread.

Until Now, City had not planned or prepared for parking issues which come with this unprecedented level of Rays success / popularity.

I say, had the proposed waterfront stadium proposal proceeded unimpeded to this November's election, the City would have benefited from professional planning and considerable new investment aimed at increasing the inventory of available parking spaces downtown, and the various public safety agencies would have improved planning.

Thanks, 1962, for continually obsessing over the immature, goofy, undemocratic notion that you somehow have more rights of citizenship than I do, because your parents fled another part of the Country, while mine chose to serve the United States of America and the advancement of freedom!

Absurd.

[^SINCE1962]

OBFUSCATORY RHETORIC ASIDE

(all family served and retired miltary)

Support MY troops indeed!

ALMOST THERE...

Past tense ruminations of 'superior' waterfront parking expertise will NOT solve issue.

Toytown venue is only logical choice UNFORTUNATLY.

[Rick K]

Since 1962, with all due respect, Toytown is not the only logical choice.

It is illogical and sophomoric to suggest such a notion.

The Waterfront is a choice. So far, all we know about that choice is that a very, very small, extremely vocal minority was able, through a dishnorable campaign of distortion, distraction and deception, to convince enough of the public to slant the results of a preliminary opinion poll, in such numbers that it convinced political leaders and the Rays ownership that they would need to build more community support for a waterfront stadium, instead of simply trusting the political process.

So now we have a coalition which will set about doing what has already been done privately by the Rays. The coalition will engage in public discussions about the site and stadium design which is best for the Rays and the community.

Odds are, the Coalition will land back at a waterfront stadium, since that idea is far superior to all others. Most probably, the Coalition's work will result in a ranking of potential sites, and the first political vote will be on their top choice.

I am betting that top choice is the Al Lang site.

[^SINCE1962]

THREAD SUBJECT

PARKING NIGHTMARE

CAUSED BY RAYS(and city manipulation)

INEPT CITY STAFF/OFFER NO SOLUTION

[Paul]

And I'm rather certain that if the 'coalition' selects the Al Lang site, round 2 will be even organized and well equipped with volunteers than round 1.

No waterfront. Period.

You forget all the red signs Rick? or are you still calling the thousands of them a 'very small number?' The politicians saw them too. Heck, there are still quite a few out there. I'm putting mine back out until Council gets off their butts and makes Staff zone Al Lang as parkland.

Go to an optician and get your eyes checked.

[^SINCE1962]

btw

COALITION

as defined by AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY....

1. an ALLIANCE of FACTIONS.

NOT a small group of PREQUALIFIED, FAN ONLY, GLEE CLUB MEMBERS!

FACTIONS....

ALLIANCE...

SOLUTION!

[Mike]

I'm personally downright giddy for the council to turn Al Lang into parkland zoning for perpetuity. The homeless need another place to camp in this town. Protect our homeless! POH! I'm thinking brown signs for this one ...

[Rick K]

I am somewhat of an advocate for programs to attack homelessness. But I find Mike's 2:26 remark to be HI-Larious!

[Harold]

Now I might have missed it in the middle of all the "na uhhs's" and "un huh's" but It seems to me the City and the Trop could fix some of this parking BY OPENING UP A FEw MORE LANES.
No need for major demolition. Cut a curb here or there. if you come in from the south side you still have to go all the way around and attempt to merge with four lanes. It is the most idiotic parking system I have ever seen. The city could use the police officers to make sure people merge ie let other people in(huge problem) A 5 year old with three crayons could devise a better entrance and exit plan. Instead the city profits by handing out (by its own admission) over 250 parking tickets.
There is empty land right next to the stadium the city could annex for game day parking. But it is more profitable to write tickets. the city has no interest in finding better parking solutions when it has a cash cow everytime the rays play at home. This has NOTHING to do with a New stadium or the ANTIS or the POWWS or the PROS or Anime or Hentai or anything other than Piss Poor Planning by the TROP and Greed by the city for their cut of the Rays success.

[Rick K]

Harold is exactly right. The City is creating the bulk of the "problems" through ineffective management.

The night of the MC Hammer post game concert, we arrived in the vicinity of the Trop about 20 minutes before game time. We were not permitted (by the police, who had ML King blocked at the intersection) to turn onto ML King from 1st Ave South. We could see that there were still five or six rows of spots empty, and several hundred spots here and there throughout the main lot (6B).

Knowing there were still plenty of empty spaces at the Trop, we tried to work our way back to the Trop lot. The police also wouldn't let us turn onto 7th Street S. We ended up parking, along with 30 others, in an unpermitted private (but empty) parking lot near the corner of 2nd Ave and 5th Street.

As we walked our way back to the Trop, they had already "closed" the main lot (6b and 7b). There were several dozen empty parking spaces. Probably close to 200 or more, just in the four most eastern rows of parking. As we made our way along the ceramic tile to the Stadium, we easily saw several hundred vacant spots.

The UHaul parking lot (lot 8?) had more than 100 empty spaces. When we went by the Vendor/Employee lot (Lot 5), their were probably about 100 spots in that lot empty, too.

That was easily about 1000 spaces that could have had cars in them.

Curious about the inefficiency, we took this conversation up with a Parking Lot attendant at the next day's game. She told us that although the parking passes for each game are numbered, the workers don't necessarily give them out in order. Thus, when the parking coordinator asks each person which ticket number is on top of their stack, the numbers which are being provided do not permit the coordinator to do simple math to figure out how many parking passes have been handed out for that game.

(Even if you park for free, you get a little pass for your dashboard)

So, based on our observation, there are 1000 spaces (probably more). Yesterday I was talking about this Times Article and our experiences at the game with a PC Sheriff's deputy. He said that he and a pal had walked the length of the lot in about the third inning on that Saturday, counting empty spaces. They had counted over 1300 spaces.

The ANTI stadium zealots will try to use this story as yet another reason to attack the waterfront location.

The lot we parked in is a small surface parking lot for an office building that had no one working there on Saturday night. We did not pay to park, and no one tried to ask us to pay. The city might consider that a disaster, but if the property owner doesn't have a problem with it, I am not sure it is any of the City's business, under current law.

Persuing the waterfront location would have provided the City with a better mechanism for addressing downtown parking for special events.

[Don Mott]

Go Rays! And Thank goodness the Sheriffs Department is counting empty parking spaces. Maybe I should call my buddy Mister Coats and tell him about this since he just laid off a few folks. I'm sure they had nothing better to do. Ha Ha What a joke! Evan for AL Rookie of the year!

[Rick K]

Off Duty Deputies who volunteer, getting paid overtime (not impacting department budgets, except in a positive way, as the money from the Rays increases job satisfaction among deputies, thereby reducing the amount the Sherrif must pay to keep his troops happy), whose job is to patrol the outside of the Trop on foot and make themselves available if needed for something else.

Counting empty parking spaces is something these guys do all the time, but then, Don lives in a Delusional land, where up is really down and twenty one people beside me are really me and pro sports do not create positive economic benefits and Don Mott is sauve and widely respected by girls who mail him their underpants!

Baaaa Haaa Haaa.

[SINCE1962]

Rick k and his baseball morons can approximate empty parking spaces at Trop...

BUT UNABLE TO PARK LEGALLY...
'unpermitted PRIVATE but empty'

NOW BUSINESS OWNERS ARE EXPECTED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST YOUR THEFT OF THEIR LOT!

Why not REQUIRE SUPERIOR business plan to JUSTIFY
business usage/non usage of ALL PARKING
game days ......petty thieves.

YOU BOYS TAKE TOO MANY FLY BALLS TO THE HEAD?

[Harold]

Since 1962
Uhhh
whaaaaaaa?
perhaps a bit obtuse for moi.
There is something to be said for brevity
but only if its concise

[^SINCE1962]

Sorry Harold

Presupposes that one has read
the previous often off topic drivel...

I refuse to restate too much sycophantic verbose vollyball.

will try to use ^ as indicator but obfuscation is their intent and the lemmings follow ignorantly...

support our troops!

[^SINCE1962]

Native,Harold Bobby F....

The city knows EXACTLY what it is doing in manipulating, capturing,and ENHANCHING PARKING REVENUE...

WITH the ignorant cooperation and illegal parking habits of 'entitled' RAYS patrons...

AND unsuspecting tourists visiting other businesses/venues...

Thus we have ONE of our citys irrational responses to Ammendment 1...

Rather than cutting waste, city contines to increase buget and 'ENHANCE' other revenue.

[Don Mott]

Evan got another homer tonight! Go Rays! And don't sniff the panties.