The Team of Nine: What it might look like

So I'm back from three weeks of vacation (me pictured behind a stein of beer in Tallinn, Estonia). And what did I miss on the stadium front? It seems like not all that much. We still don't know who's going to be on this baseball coalition, other than Progress Energy CEO Jeff Lyash.

We do know the size of the committee, however, nine. And we know the group also has a name, A Baseball Community, Inc. If I had to guess, here's what I think the committee will look like when it's seated in September.

1. Lyash, chairman
2. St. Petersburg resident leader (CONA?)
3. Pinellas County civic/community leader
4. Rays season ticket holder.
5. St. Petersburg business leader (chamber, partnership, Steve Raymund of Tech Data?)
6. Pinellas beach business leader (Clearwater perhaps)
7. Somebody from Hillsborough/Tampa
8. Ex-politician
9. ????????????? (Could this be the POWW seat? Will Lyash give them one?)

Am I missing something?

Comments

[get-smart]

AAron -
Is it me or are the Rays targeting your blog for their advertisements?

Where is the picture of the super model?

I thought there were nine team members and a coach.

Who is actually going to do the work on the committee?

Do you think the ABCB web blog will compete with your blog or is it a joke?

What's with the donations?

-

[get-smart]

AAron -
Is it me or are the Rays targeting your blog for their advertisements?

Where is the picture of the super model?

I thought there were nine team members and a coach.

Who is actually going to do the work on the committee?

Do you think the ABCB web blog will compete with your blog or is it a joke?

What's with the donations?

-

[Rick K]

Aaron, welcome back and thanks for yet another great topic.

I am glad to see that the Coalition as declared it mission "will serve as a community-wide effort to identify what it will take to ENSURE major league baseball here is vital, viable and successful over a long period of time, in the best interests of our community." {emphasis mine}

And, as I correctly predicted,
"All contributing members of the Coalition fully share in this fundamental proposition."

If Lyash sticks to his guns (which he will), no POWW people need apply.

Here is how I see it shaking out...

1. Lyash, chairman (with loads of support from paid folks at Progress Energy who will be the "staff" of the Coalition.

2. A St. Petersburg resident leader who has experience with the Citizen governance organizations, but who may not currently be a member of them. I am not sure if anyone in CONA's leadership will commit to the "we are finding a way to do this, not arguing about if we should do it" pledge.

3. A highly visible Pinellas County civic/community leader, or a celebrity /former athlete with some business credentials, or one who has an affectionate relationship with the community. (Mike Alstot or Ron Diaz, for example)

4. A "joe (or jane) schmoe," who is either a Rays season ticket holder, or someone who goes to a lot of games. I predict this person will be a transplant to the Bay Area.

5. Someone major from the St. Petersburg business leadership community (like you said, from the chamber or partnership. Steve Raymund of Tech Data would be huge.)

6. A Pinellas beach business leader, from anywhere on the beach. (I agree that Clearwater seems to imply more certain geographic diversity).

7. Somebody from Hillsborough/Tampa. It would be best if this was either a high profile business person, someone who was involved in sports, or someone with Tampa business interests who will be obviously playing the role of advocating what is best for the region. As Ted Webb was involved before, he might make a great choice. Or perhaps CowHead (who lives in Pasco County).

8 & 9. I think the last two seats could be filled by former politicians, beloved sports figures, entrepreneurs, or more joe schmoes.

It would be pretty powerfully persausive to the undecided citizen to have had 3 "regular" citizens on the panel.

There are enough talented people in this pool who could actually bring real quality contributions to the panel and add to the process.

Of course, each of the nine members will also be responsible for being the visible point person with various sub constituencies.

I think it will be interesting.

[Rick K]

Another thought, Aaron... the Coalition could form (informal) sub committees to expand their reach.

If they had a major media figure on board (Dickey V, anyone?), that person could meet with other radio/tv/print journalists regularly.

Lyash can spearhead the efforts inside board rooms all over town.

A former or current elected POL could meet with elected POLS from governments far and wide.... Bradenton, Crystal River, and all the rest.

A key player from the local Chamber of Commerce can coordinated communication with other Chambers in the five county area.

A Tourism official (involved in operating one of our resort hotels) could be the "unofficial" link to the tourism industry.

And so on.

[John D]

Once again, Rick K, I applaud you for an interesting, informative post. You have obviously thought long and hard on the subject--far more than I. There's one thing that's not entirely clear to me, however. You're a huge proponent of totally free markets (not that there's anything wrong with that)--so I wonder: why does gov't or the general public have any right to interfere with the Rays' ownership? Souldn't they have the right to buy land, build a stadium on it--and then play ball forever, or sell it to the highest bidder?
Or did I miss something?

[Paul]

So Rick, you think a guy named 'Cowhead' would be a good fit for the coalition?

haha

ok.

This coalition is already annoying me. No members from the large pool of people who believe the Trop is just fine? Ok. Hey, its not like its everyones 1/2 billion they want to spend, I mean why should I have any say about how our/my tax money gets spent? What the heck, my property taxes have only doubled on my non-homesteaded properties in the last few years... I shouldn't be included, of course not, I only pay lots of taxes in St Pete/Pinellas, don't include me. nope.

[Don Mott]

Rick K for mayor, as soon as he tells us his real name. He sees all and knows all much better than anyone else.

[since1962]

A coalition is by definition an alliance of FACTIONS...

not a fan club!

This issue has generated tremedous grassroots interest both pro and QUESTIONING.
A large segment of Pinellans will be excluded during this important economic discussion
and another failure will ensue if only baseball fans voices are heard.

[mrclean]

I nominate Rene Flowers. She will add to the entertainment. She would also fill the minority role. Ex city council role. Talk about harpies. I couldn't wish her on a better group.

[since1962]

Let THEM pray

[John]

Rick K is sounding more like Aaron's parrot every day...too funny.

I posted a thoughtful comment on the new "ABC blog" a few days ago, yet it still hasn't shown up. Wonder why that is? Are they censoring posts already?

This whole "coalition" is a dog and pony show and nothing more.

Read the comments from TBO and Bay News Nine stories about this. Not a single taxpayer in favor of a new stadium, anywhere, until the economy rebounds significantly.

The Rays blew it with their hidden agendas and secret meetings and ruining our tradition of Spring Training in this city in hopes of grabbing Al Lang for themselves. Didn't work then, won't work now.

People don't forget. They won't forget next city election, either.

This stadium is going to be a major local campaign issue next year, regardless of Bush style "coalitions of the willing".

The only good thing is the fact we don't have do listen to the moron espouse his beloved "Paired redevelopment proposals" any more.

And for that, I am grateful.

[Dave In St Pete]

Where is this "ABC Blog"?

[Rick K]

Dave, you will find it at the coalition's website.

www.abc-baseball.com

John, sticks and stones.
And if you read THIS blog, you will still be encountering mention of the paired redevelopment proposals. If you don't wish to read it, you can always stay over at those "100% negative" blogs you adore.

John D., ON the off chance that you are actually curious about my economic philosophy, permit me to explain.

My study of economics has convinced me that free markets are the most efficient mechanism for allocating scare resources, setting prices, and determing the quantity of outputs and inputs.

However, I recognize that some regulation is desirable. The easiest example is permitting only a single electric utility to operate in a particular neighborhood, but regulating the monopoly.

I also think it is somtimes a reasonable part of the democratic process when citizens choose to tax themselves and allocate those tax collections to be spent on the provision of various public goods, even though those goods can often provided entirely by the private sector.

The key to me is to have the process be democratic enough. So, while I did not think "long and hard" about this topic, I think this coalition task force is a terrific idea. I wonder why those who were in favor of the work POWW did would oppose a contrary effort of citizens, whose recommendations must, at the end of the day, win approval from voters and/or elected representatives.

For example, let's say that the outcome of the coalitions work is a proposal for a privately financed stadium in Pinellas to open in 2013. That would still require approval from at least the City Council, because they would have to modify the Rays existing lease agreement. I am okay as long as their is honest and fair exchange, and the people or their representatives get to vote.

To me, it's the best possible marriage of free markets and the collective choices of electors.

[John D]

Rick--
Points well taken, as usual. And, believe it or not, I tend to fall on the free market side myself--as long as there is reasonable, effective regulation. I say this because in every case, the unregulated free market ends in monopoly: witness all the robber barons of the past, and the drug dealers of today. In no case is an unregulated monopoly a good thing for the consumer.
Back to the Coalition: I still maintain that it's a useless waste of time, no matter how it's constituted. We know enough right now to put several proposals to the people's reps and let them hash through to a final one, which, I assume, the populace could accept or reject. Toytown, with all its probs, looks like the winner. I believe the money will magically appear.
Howsomever, we happen to be nearing an election, and nothing ever gets done in an election year. Thus the Coalition is a convenient delaying tactic.
Meanwhile, tomorrow, I'm off to get tix for Labor Day week, when visiting friends and my wife & I will enjoy a couple Rays games in A/C comfort. Dey better win, da bums. Or else.

[Bill]

Aaron,

What about FANS? They support the Rays, support the stadium, support a long-term commitment to Major League Baseball. Doesn't that fit the criteria that Lyash is looking for?

FANS should be given consideration as well.

[Rick K]

Paul, I will resist the urge to make a smart-mouthed comment about you being annoyed, and instead ask you a serious question.

Why on earth would ANYONE seeking to assemble a group of people to accomplish a specific task include people who aren't 100% committed to accomplishing the task?

POWW did not include Pro-Waterfront Stadium folks on it's executive or steering committee. The Democratic National Committee does not include Republicans as key members, and American Courts do not generally welcome convicted felons into chambers to help judges figure out how best to dispense justice.

Does your boss routinely assign people to a work task that they have no interest in completing? Is that the formula for success as you know it?

Paul, I am not sure why you are complaining about the possibility that you might not have a say in the ultimate stadium proposal that comes out of the coalition. That was POWW's objective. We were headed towards a series of votes by publicly elected government bodies, followed by a city wide ballot question that would have permitted citizens of St. Pete to decide for themselves.

POWW opted to form an unelected coalition, answerable only to themselves, to deprive Citizens of a chance to have a say this November on the Rays proposal. Because of the actions of POWW's "coalition," another coalition is now being formed to do much of what POWW asked for. This coalition will search, survey, and seek out information. They will assemble data and analyze it, and come up with a plan that they believe best serves the community and the Rays.

At that time, if a vote is required on whatever proposal the coalition has come up with, you, along with everyone else, will get to vote.

That is a beautiful thing.

The American colonies did not send representatives to Philadelphia in 1776 to debate how best to formally declare our independence from England. They sent representatives to work out HOW to do it.

it but it but it but but

[Rick K]

Sorry about the weird typos in my previous post.

The last bit was meant to be that we didn't send people to Philly to debate whether or not to formally separate from England, we sent them to figure out how to do it.

(Those "buts" at the end are a new weird glitch with my wireless internet. Has anyone else ever seen that?)

[Mr. Tibbs]

There first task should be to change the name of the team to ST. Petersburg Rays .

[Paul]

Well Rick, the mayor appointed Lyash to head up the coalition. The mayor works for the people and me, as I help pay his salary... and the resulting coalition doesn't seem to represent all the people, only those favoring a stadium. That, to me, is a conflict of interest in the Mayor representing the people of St Pete.

As much as you don't like to admit, many of us do not want a new stadium. So, the way I see it, since the mayor started this and our mayor and county commissioners were standing next to Lyash when he made the big announcement on Monday, that kinda seems like my tax dollars at work... and working against my tax paying wishes, which, are to not build a new stadium. To me, it seems that the local govt is organizing against the numerous number of people who have clearly shown they don't want a new stadium on the waterfront (that would be the red yard signs). Lyash said 'no site is off the table for consideration at this point'. That is not cool. That smacks of disrespect to every single person who had or has a red yard sign and the others who agree. There is my point of annoyance. There ya go. Nice and civil too, smart alec free response, for the very first time.

As for my boss, that is irrelevant. As for POWW, that too is irrelevant. This is about the coalition, today and now. What happened over the past few months clearly doesn't matter to Lyash, the Mayor or the mission of the newly founded coalition. This is a coalition with the purpose of raiding the City and County coffers. Nothing less.

My prediction: round 2 will be even uglier than the Rays first attempt. Let the games begin.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Nobody needs to be too excited about this coalition. This is simply a gambit to help the Rays justify another huge MLB grab of corporate welfare. It is a PR move and nothing more. There will be NO real research or genuine discussion. The result is a foregone conclusion with the exception of the site. One can guess however it's either Toytown or Tropicana because these people do NOT want a vote...especially in an off year election with the majority of voters actually informed.

When you listen to Mr. Lyash list the qualifications for inclusion in this "coalition", "You must be a baseball fan. You must be committed to helping the Rays succeed in the longterm.", you can see that this group is not looking for answers, but simply for justification for the conclusion they have already reached.

Mind you I'm not totally "anti" subsidy. We gave 12 million to Jabil for close to 3,000 good paying jobs. I believe in excess of 3 million came from the state for SRI for quality high paying research positions. In fact the SRI investment has led to the recent announcement of yet another research company setting up shop in both St. Petersburg and Tampa. Councilman Jeff Danner is trying to beg 1 million from private sources so that the city can subsidize the "Arts" in an ongoing fashion with the endowment. Perhaps "some" subsidy would be in order for our baseball fans. Could we at least have some sense of perspective when it comes to the MLB subsidy? 300 million...roughly 15 million a year for 30 years...actually very low estimates and probably not realistic...simply seems totally out of proportion to me.

Consider that Alex Rodriguez of the New York Yankees makes enough annual salary to pay that 15 million annually and still have 10 million left over for himself. Consider that the top 3 Ray's players salaries would more than cover the 15 million needed annually to pay for the stadium NOBODY can actually claim the team NEEDS our money. However it is simply a fact of life that the team can get the money from us or some other community with an inferiority complex large enough to desperately need to be called "Major League". Can you say Rick Mussett or Rick Baker? My point is simply that is there no sense of fairness?

In an age when folks are facing foreclosure, high gas prices, a shaky economy, outrageous insurance premiums and yes skyrocketing tax rates do we really consider it fair to subsidize multimillionaire athletes and billionaire owners?

[Don Mott]

It is never fair. And it is getting ridiculous. Someone somewhere has to put a stop to the bleeding of communities on the false pretenses of monetary gains. The only ones who gain are the millionaire owners. Regardless of what some say it has been proven over and over again. Even the Sonics owners said before their move that the franchise did not contribute to the city coffers. Did anyone else notice that the abc sight has removed the Blog option? I wonder why? Did you also notice that besides asking for donations they are also looking for volunteer fund raisers? Sounds more like a PAC than an independent coalition.

[Don Mott]

Also as I understand it an employee of Progress Energy owns the domain. An employee of Progress Energy is also the treasurer of abc. Hmmmm! I smell something and it ain't roses.

[get-smart]

Mr. Tibbs -

The committee is controlled by Matt.

The committee was set up at the request of the Rays. Once the Rays realized the waterfront scenario was a disaster, they went to Mayor Baker and asked him to begin a process that was local. Matt quickly learned that he was the outsider when dealing with the county and the voters.

Baker called on his buddy Lyash to set up the committee because Lyash has the resources to do so. Matt is still calling the shots.

As a committee, the first order of business should be to vote on a new chair and get rid of Matt and Lyash. But that's not going to happen. That is why this committee will fail.

By having Lyash and Matt attached to this council, the findings will never be impartial. These guys may be able to BS and bribe their way with the mayor, city council, BOCC and the other elected officials but they won't be able to withstand the re-tooling of POWW, CONA and other 'not with my tax money' crowd. The '09 elections will change the political landscape in St Pete.

The best thing for the Rays is to take the ToyTown land build their own stadium with their own money.

-

-

[since1962]

Rick
Your obsfucation and juvenile 'chatter' does not negate the real economic impact any proposal will have on our and economic and geographic structure.

Convicted felons and republicans aside (office of redundancy office?) such implications REQUIRE maximum public participation and discussion....

NOT a GLEE CLUB

[since1962]

Truly Concerned
Perhaps the most unfortunate and economicly destructive consequense of this charade will be the subsidy fallout.

Subsidies are intended as a business attractor not an onoing taxpayer funded extortion racket for existing business.

Now the word subsidy has the lowest connotation and our economy will suffer.

THANKS RAYS, City Staff, Jabil And...
the
TIMES
for NOT kepping us informed BEFORE public turned against ALL subsidies.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Rick K.,

Just a quick question. In your 9:43PM post you state...

"However, I recognize that some regulation is desirable. The easiest example is permitting only a single electric utility to operate in a particular neighborhood, but regulating the monopoly."

Since MLB is clearly a monopoly protected by a very special exemption issued by Congress...would you be in favor of regulating MLB. That of course would be the simple answer to all that is hideously wrong with Professional Sports in our country.

The owners claim free enterprise and capitalism..then go to the socialism of demanding ENORMOUS amounts of subsidies from the citizens. The players UNIONIZE then chafe at the very thought of collusion on a wage scale. Talk about having the best of both worlds!!!

[Rick K]

but but but but it but A truly concerned, Don Mott, and 1962.

With all due respect. You folks continue to confuse your own passionate delusions with reality.

Don Mott can tell himself that investing $250 million to get a return five or ten or twenty times that amount is the same as "bleeding of communities on the false pretenses of monetary gains."

He can say it twenty-five million times, and it will never be true. It will be believed by a small portion of the populace (including many in mental institutions, but that is another topic). Don's problem is that he is perpetually frustrated that elected decisionmakers and accomplished executives won't abandon their silly insistence upon making judgements based on verifiable fact and join with Don in a world where up is down, lies are truths and multiple returnes on invested dollars are "bleeding the community."

Don takes exception to the fact that an executive at Progress Energy would use Progress Energy resources to start up this coalition.

Those of us who live in the normal world, where maturity and sanity are more common, have no problems with either the involvement of a private company or an attempt to embrace the reality that the Rays are a valuable community asset who are responsible for attracting millions atop millions of dollars into the local economy each year.

1962, I would like to reply to you, but I fear that you are so far gone my response might cause you to do yourself bodily harm, and I cannot have that on my conscience.

ATrulyConcerned, you continue to focus on an aspect of this issue that is not important to most of us. It's your right to do so. But most of us won't be joining you.

Most of us do not live lives, like Don Mott, ruled by fantasies that are not widely accepted by everyone else. Most of us do not live lives, like you, Truly, dominated by jealousy and irrational hatred.

Because it is very simple for most of us.

It does not matter if we personally like the Rays or enjoy baseball. Just as it does not matter if we like to boat, read free books, look at art, or toss a frisbee.

We make decisions about which sorts of community amentities ought to be subsidized with our tax money based on an assesment of which amenities we think would make our community attractive to the sorts of people we would like to have as our neighbors.

One need not own a yacht to be in favor of the ongoing subsidies for City owned marinas. One need not be in college or own a company to favor the ongoing subsidies for USF St Pete. One need not be fearful of drug smugglers to appreciate the ongoing subsidies for the US Coast Guard. One need not be a general aviation buff to appreciate and support ongoing subsidies for Albert Whited. One need not be a reader to appreciate ongoing subsidies of public libraries. One need not be a park goer, arts patron, concert goer, or rider of buses to appreciate the ongoing public subsidies for public parks, art museums and public art, Janus Landing and the Mahaffey, or PSTA.

Truth is, Many of us support ongoing public subsidies related to Major League (and Minor League) baseball because we value the addition it provides to our community. Many of us do the easy math and see that an entity that brings $150,000,000 per year to our local economy is worth a fraction of that each year in public tax support.

Most of us don't really care who receives specific benefits from public subsidies. We don't care that a particular artist may earn millions, that some musicians and song writers earn the same, that some yachts are owned by the mega rich, and some planes are owned by people in the upper 10%. We don't care.

We don't care how much a player or the team owners make. We don't buy into your bogus views, based on fantasy or jealousy or fear. We view baseball as a valuable addition to our community.

That is the long and short of it.

[John]

Rick K you forgot one.

Most of us don't care about your ridiculous spin and delusional fear of grassroots organizations like POWW that borders on paranoia.

Seems to me you are the one who is outnumbered in this discussion. Those reader/view comment sites I mentioned that you said were "100% negative"....why is that, Rick K?

Why aren't those people just gushing with joy over the formation of this new coalition? Because they're not stupid, Rick. That's why.

Why did ABC take down their blog before a single entry was posted? Fear of the truth from the citizens? I thought this was going to be a "transparent process"?

I can make an educated guess that they recieved several dozen, perhaps several hundred posts that read something like this:

"Make the Rays pay for their own damn stadium"

"NOT ON OUR WATERFRONT"

"Jeff Lyash is a Rick Baker puppet"

"There's nothing wrong with the Trop"

And so on....

So much for a community-wide open discussion on their forum. At least the Times provides this and other open forums without censorship of different views.

It may be time to start making "new and improved" red signs.

[John]

And one more thing

Who's bright idea was it to put the president of the local electric utility company in charge of this charade?

Seems to me if you want community-wide support, one of the LAST people you'd want is a person who is behind the upcoming massive electric rate hikes to pay for a new nuke plant. Money coming off the backs of the very same citizens they'll be looking for support from to subsidize another for-profit corporation with our tax dollars.

As they say on the Guinness commercials....

BRILLIANT!!!

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Ahhh Rick K you've picked up where you left off before your arguments went down in smoke with the Rays tossing in the towel....again nothing but ad hominem attacks and absolute BS.

Explain the facts behind your scattergun assertions..

"Those of us who live in the normal world, where maturity and sanity are more common,"

Great Rick now you're a psychiatric expert as well as a world renown economist.

"Many of us do the easy math and see that an entity that brings $150,000,000 per year to our local economy is worth a fraction of that each year in public tax support."

Rick provide your source for those ABSURD NUMBERS. Provide it from an INDEPENDENT, PEER REVIEWED study, not some sham purchased by a group with a vested interest...like say the MLB or NFL or some government folks like Rick Mussett who want their views validated not any actual research.

And last but certainly not least Rick answer the burning question. Why are their literally dozens and dozens of reports, academic research papers, etc done by peer reviewed folks with PhD's and other advanced degrees..nothing I'm sure to compare to the Rick K degree of economics...WHAT IS THEIR MOTIVATION?
Why would they produce a study to simply debunk EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING. Is it because they dislike you personally? Is it because they had a bad experience in little league...perhaps on the playground? Why Rick Why would dozens and dozens of HIGHLY RESPECTED researchers produce reams of documents pointing out the fallacy of your abolutely absurd
statement..."Many of us do the easy math and see that an entity that brings $150,000,000 per year to our local economy is worth a fraction of that each year in public tax support."

IF the math is sooo easy why do SOOOO MANY ACCREDITED EXPERTS WITH ADVANCED DEGREES PRODUCE PEER REVIEWED STUDIES THAT STATE EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF YOUR FALACIOUS ASSERTION? What is their motivation Rick. Are you so incredibly arrogant that you totally disregard their degrees, qualifications, and peer reviewed studies that are not funded by ANYBODY looking for a certain outcome?

[since1962]

Yes the Progress Energy portion of the 'community discussion' was silenced before it began.

Ironically these same business/government titans foisting TWO WAY street conversions(for their business intrest$) on our populace now prefer limited access ONE WAY communication FOR THEIR BUSINESS INTREST$.
Contact us...
We'll consider SUPPORTIVE documentation....

[Jamie]

I think some people have lost their grip. The blog at the ABC website hasn't been installed yet. The site template has a place for it, but it isn't up and running. No one is trying to silence anyone. A Truly Concerned, the problem with your argument is that for every study you point to by academics you like, there are 20 that come to precisely the opposite conclusion. Being an academic doesnt make someone right.

[since1962]

Aaron

I am not a proponent of censorship and the TIMES 250 character limit on other public venues is often just shy of what is necessary...

BUT

some limitation on this blog would force concise obsfucation from erudite professor poseurs and better reflect Pinellas County demographic reality.

Want MORE participation on this site and potential advertising revenue?

That seems to be a PRIMARY goal within the job description for Customer 'Insight' Manager posted on Times site.

[since1962]

Jamie

BLOG WAS there

NOW contact us....

[Paul]

Another thing missing from these blogs is user registration. You create an account and have to provide a valid email address to activate it... and most importantly only one account per email address. That would prevent people from talking to themselves and creating multiple persona's to support their own opinions... and it would enable the Times to delete anyone who gets out of hand with insults.

I've got to think this blog software provides for that. I agree, there should be some limit on number of postings per hour / day and definately a character limit of sorts.

[since1962]

Sorry guys, I need some prune juice this afternoon ... afterall I am a VERY bitter old codger that hates progress and people that don't agree with my narrow-minded shtick

BITTER AS HELL ... since1962

[Jon McPhee]

>>>I am not a proponent of censorship and the TIMES 250 character limit on other public venues is often just shy of what is necessary...<<<

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Jamie,

I could simply repeat your hyperbole and say for every study showing baseball to be an economic boon there are 20 studies to refute that. You simply stating that doesn't make it true. I have at least a dozen hyperlinks I can post if you wish to accept the challenge. Do you have 240 to counter...heck can you even match me study for study? Will your's be independent and academic..or paid for by an entity that stands to benefit from the result?

[atrulybittercitizen]

my studies are by other progress hating weanies like myself!

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Well by all means let's see your studies trulybitter...coming from someone as intellectual as you, they must be enlightening indeed...certainly tossing over 300 million of taxpayer money at millionaire players and billionaire owners is REAL PROGRESS!!!

[John]

Jamie, quit lying please.

The ABC website not only had a blog installed already, they even had "Question #1" posted for replies. However they did not post any replies and have now removed the blog from the main page AS WELL AS re-wording their welcome statement about "joining the discussion on our blog" which is now gone.

It's quite clear what this means.

[since1962]

This 'bitter old codger' just turned 50 and is attempting an INCLUSIVE REPRESENTATIVE conversation unburdened by BLOG BLOATING DIATRIBES FROM EITHER SIDE.

[since1962]

See even Jon can do it...

Very funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Don Mott]

Jamie AKA Sybil AKA RRRick K, show us the proof! You constantly grab numbers out of thin air with no proof to back them. Being an academic may not make one right but when MANY more than one agree on the same subject it certainly gives them more credence than some anonymous keystroker. Certainly one who tries to convince people he is MANY different people. As John said the blog link WAS on the ABC site and HAS since been removed. I'm with Paul on the user registration, it gets ridiculous when one person shows up under 10 or 20 different names.

[since1962]

and for the record while I did join AARP as a goof on my 50th I despise prune juice and embrace progress at every turn in fact went shopping for new Sony All in One' LCD HDTV/Computer yesterday which will enable lightning fast retort from these 'arthritic' digits while viewing golden girl reruns in spectacular HD.
Take that whippersnapper.

[Don Mott]

Oh and BTW check this out. http://majorleaguedowntown.com/ Scroll to the bottom and read. Thought they were a grassroots org. to counter POWW. Wrong, a site paid for by Rays Management.

[since1962]

intresting
then THEY must not be seated with the 'coalition' if strict adherance to 'rules' is to be enforced.

[Don Mott]

And then check this out. http://www.floridalobbyistdirectory.com/Principal.aspx?id=348 They are registered lobbyists. I wonder how involved they are with the supposedly INDEPENDANT ABC coalition. What a freaking joke!

[since1962]

This entire charade is unfortunate particularly when relative newcommer$ claim owner$hip of OUR tradition$ and twi$t them to their own device$.

Even I was involved in Seminole baseball and Al Lang before Rays existed yet must endure monologues by newcommers like Progress CEO Lyash regarding "OUR" long baseball tradition and what "WE" must do to maintain...
now that Rays have destroyed that tradition at Al LANG!

Lobbyists don't surprise me one bit.This EX-clusive effort will implode and may end the tradition.We'll have those brass reminders...

[Don Mott]

It gets even more interesting. If you Google the two lobbyists you will find they also lobby for the N.Y. Yankees. Isn't that a laugh? Or not?

[since1962]

I think not...

But unlike some do not object to all lobbying
(AARP?)

DO object to an apathetic populace allowing 'insider' deals at taxpayer expense...

With POWW,CONA,etc it looks like we're 'mad as he!! and not going to take it anymore"

[Rick K]

Aaron, please do us all a favor. Look at the information available to you and let these idiots know that for the fiftieth time, their claim that I am posting under a different name is wrong. And, further, please ban, forever, from the site anyone who has made an untrue assertion in this space, as fact.

These ignorant idiots are too much!

They live in a fantasy world. Much of what the believed is the opposite of reality. Someone must do these dopes the favor of telling them that they are wrong, stupid, and wasting everyone's time.

[Rick K]

Don Mott must either be an idiot, or taking meds which render his intelligence unusable. There is no person in St Pete who EVER thought that majorleaguedowntown.com was anything other than a site built by the Rays to promote their waterfront stadium proposal.

Someone needs to do this idiot a favor and save him from himself.

[Thomas]

Massive public subsidies for stadiums/arenas are horrible investments. That's widely accepted at this point. Only a great fool would attempt to justify a new stadium based on "economic benefits".

Did anyone catch the Marlins act in court?

First they put Tony Villamil on the stand to describe the huge benefits of having the team. They called him an "economist" but actually he's a paid consultant for the Marlins. Villamil referred to a study he helped produce about the hundreds of millions of dollars in economic impact of the team.

But under cross-examination Villamil acknowledged the study was based on 2001 data supplied by the Marlins which Villamil didn't even attempt to independently verify.

So there you have it: If you want a study that says MLB provides huge economic returns, you hire a consultant and hand him the numbers you want used.

The Marlins also called Beacon Council President Frank Nero. He said the Marlins have been a factor in "selling" South Florida since 1992. But during cross-examination, Nero said he couldn't cite even one example of a business that moved to the area as a result of the baseball team.

It's pretty simple: Teams do not yield a significant enough economic benefit to justify the massive subsidies they demand. They're feeding the public fabricated studies in attempt to rob them of tax money to increase their margins.

[Don in St. Pete]

Rick K., How convenient to call everyone who disagrees with your views an idiot or worse. I guess the fact escaped you that there will be NO paired redevelopment proposals, since you seem to be a mama's boy with a mammary infatuation. The city and/or the Rays could have easily developed the parking lots at Tropicana Fiel without the benefit of a referendum. Can you see fit to grab just one hanful Rick, instead of 2? I am a Rays fan and am in favor of finding common ground on a cetrally located multi-use facility that benefits a far larger portion of the population that just Rays fans and can pay for itself with local leadership. You've got it all wrong with many of the locals. They were mainly against the downtown stadium and subsidizing a single use facility. For you to attack them offhand and call them names is totally irresponsible. There should be seat at the table for all invloved in the ongoing discussions and for that not to happen smacks of another give the taxpayers the shaft Coalition. By now they should know better and want to operate in the sunshine with public input and consideration.

[since1962]

Locally, Klages original Suncoast Dome study is being "dusted off" and reconfigured to justify THIS stadium attempt according to BOCC.

A new study(ies) NOT based on previous figures and conducted by company(ies) other than KLAGES is the fiscally responsible action that OUR representatives MUST take.

[since1962]

Yes Rick
OUR baseball tradition existed long before transients with 'superior' economic/demographic/geographic/legal/... advice arrived and claimed it as their own...

we will muddle through when you move to your next stop...

Y'all come back and see us..
Ya Hear!

[mrclean]

If the ML teams brought in all the economic benefit the team owners claim, there would be no problem in finding investors to build a mini city around the stadium with suites and services and rake the money in themselves.

[Don Mott]

WOW RRRick did I touch a nerve there buddy?

[Don Mott]

While we're at it RRRick why don't you tell us your real name so we can can all see where your motives lie?

[Don Mott]

"And, further, please ban, forever, from the site anyone who has made an untrue assertion in this space, as fact." I guess that means you will be banned forever RRRick.

like the 'coalition' pseudo intellectual sycophantic delettantes ONLY need contribute.

[Don Mott]

RRRick, face it dude. You have nothing and no one to support your inane remarks. Give it up!

[Paul]

Shhhhh, smell that? Its Rick K's brain boiling.

I bet if we put up a poll on who should be banned, you'd win by a landslide Rick. I'd bet a beer on that too.

The only thing I feel bad about with this coalition is the likely scenario that Lyash will dictate the dirty PR work to his 'interim' minions at Progress Energy. I'm sure those folks want to do their jobs and go home and perhaps not deal with comments and feedback from the public, specifically on the 'no site is off the table yet' comment. I know I've nominated a few people so far and well lets just say I know they won't be selected.

Just lookup the domain abc-baseball.com and see who owns it. Its some lady who lives over on Maderia Beach in a very very nice waterfront home on the intracoastal side. I"m not posting her name or address as I wouldn't want mine posted... but figure out how to do a 'whois' on a domain name and you can see for yourself. I don't recognize her name. This, in my opinion, is about as rookie as it gets. You never ever put your home address and phone number on a domain record... or you at least have the smarts to hide the info.

[mrclean]

It will be 'The Committee of the Chiefs' and Lyash will be the Grand Sachem. They could always use the Chamber of Commerce -PW study. That study (if you want to call it that) calculates the economic benefit dollars in 2010 dollars. In other words, all the numbers they use are inflated by at least 30%.

[since1962]

Paul
State Road 666 Does run through Mad Beach...

If a 'techtard' such as 1962 can access site you mentioned and visitors are urged to 'send her some love'...

Her inbox must be brimming with non fan 'sentiment'

Wanted to give 'coalition' benefit of doubt until 'fan only' limitation and evaporation of 'community discussion' blog into internet ether...

This exclusionary attempt will further divide the community and may end the 'long baseball tradition' these transients have attempted to hijack as their own....

917,437 - 15,000 Rays Fans=902,437 excluded ANGRY Pinellans...

[John]

Paul,

The owner of the ABC website is Nancy Loehr (I'm not afraid to put her name out there if she's going to be lobbying to use my tax money for a ballpark).

She's a general manager for Progress Energy Florida who deals in community affairs for our region.

Seems as though we're not just battling the Rays any more. They have taken on Progress Energy as a partner.

Perhaps instead of using public tax subsidies, the Rays & P/E will just raise our electric bills to pay for Progress Energy Park II.

I emailed a question to the ABC "contact us" the other day about why they removed their blog program before it even got started, and have not received a response. Shocker.

[John]

I wonder if the Florida Public Service Commission would find any problem with a public utility in bed with a private corporation to garner public tax money for private enterprise for their own financial gain (naming rights, etc).

I suppose I'll email them and find out.

[since1962]

ONE WAY 'discussion' from the same BUSINESS interests who appropriated OUR tax dollars for TWO WAY street conversions 'benefitting' BUSINESS to the detriment of free flowing fuel efficient traffic...

'$50,000'PLUS in additional additional conversions happening soon...

Apathy has its price...
NO DISCUSSION

[John]

Very interesting post 1962 was referring to on www.stpetersblog.com

A link to Nancy's email address (the one she used to register the ABC website) is posted there for your typing enjoyment.

[Beth]

The group should include at least one member who is simultaneously passionate about the Rays, the St. Petersburg community and the game of baseball. An understanding of the game and business of baseball would be a real asset. I hope the group includes those who focus on the future of our community, including the powerful cohesive impact a strong baseball franchise can have for the entire community. The relationship between the community and its government with its sports franchises is more than just another economic development deal.