Week 13: Heatcheck Wednesday

Week 13 of Heatcheck Wednesday, a permanent feature here at Ballpark Frankness (that everyone likes to criticize). The idea behind this post is to track the past week's Rays home games and wonder how tolerable they would have been, had they been played outdoors.

Just one home game since last Wednesday.

So after 56 homes games, 69 percent of the home schedule, here are our up-to-date standings:

How you feeling? Hot. Hot. Hot. ---- 3

Hot, but nothing a cold beverage couldn't cure. ---- 9

Take me out the ball game. ---- 44

Rain delay (Rain plays a minor factor) ---- 2

Rain out (Rain plays a major factor) ---- 1

Comments

[John]

Isn't this thread irrelevant at this point? There won't be an open air waterfront ballpark, or an open air ballpark anywhere for that matter. When it's time for a new ballpark (5-7 years away), it'll be a retractable-roof, air-conditioned, multi-use baseball/convention facility likely on the Toytown property.

[Little Red Signs]

I agree with John. This thread is now totally irrelevant.

Additionally, I have often wondered how asking folks the questions in the Heatcheck Poll, whether the fact that the person responding was most likely in air conditioning, most likely had a cool beverage within reach, most likely was sitting, was most probably very comfortably dressed and most likely not trudging 3/4 of a mile just to get to the stadium let alone making the hike up to their seat. Just how relevant are the questions in the first place?

If you are cool, comfortable, fed and relaxed can you really answer the Heatcheck questions honestly.

I sort of equate it to going grocery shopping right after a big meal. I am likely not to buy as much or buy what I just ate.

Now send me to the store hungry and that is entirely another matter.

[^SINCE1962]

blah...
blah...
blah...

ARE YOU FACTORY WORKERS

PAID BY THE CHARACTER?

WHERE? IN WHAT? WHEN?

BASIC JOURNALISM,,,

[Rick K]

What the heck?

John has a crystal ball (a poor one at that), and he thinks his silly predictions for the future are the same as facts?

Hope you kept the receipt their, man. "World o' Crystal" gives refunds after 30 days.

Little Red signs, you might want to lay off the sauce before posting. Nowhere has Aaron discussed that he completes this blog topic each week by calling people in air conditioning who are drinking cool beverages and asking them what they imagine the conditions are like outside.

1962, um. Never mind. Actually, strike that. Please post more odd, vague, insane, pointless posts all over the Times blogs. I am sure there is value in it, somewhere. Somewhere there is a mentally challenged kid with loads of problems who reads your stuff and smiles.

[Don Mott]

Go Rays

[^SINCE1962]

Rick
So now you throw mentally challenged children under YOUR obfuscation 'short bus'...

You must be one heck of a Seminole childrens sports program 'volunteer'....

You have transformed from foolish jester to ignorant sociopath...

Any Seminole parents reading this?

[Rick K]

Since 1962, I think the parents in Seminiole are well aware of my anti-social tendencies. As are many parents in Tarpon, Oldsmar, Palm Harbor, Pinellas Park, Dunedin, and St. Petersburg, Florida.

They are joined by parents in Memphis, TN, Greenville, SC, Colorado Springs, CO, and Dayton, OH.

You really think you can insult me?

[^SINCE1962]

THREAD SUBJECT

WEATHER CONDITIONS/BASEBALL

WHERE (in)WHAT WHEN ?

[Paul]

What flavor Kool Aid you drinking today Rick? My guess is Whacky Watermelon. Try some of the Jim Jones flavor next time, heard its really tasty.

Man, you don't even have your usual babbling idiocy posts anymore, just flat out attacks on people. So here's one back at ya. You so don't understand this area, I'm guessing you'll be gone by summer's end.

[Rick K]

Yes Paul.

Keep repeating the foolish delusions over and over. Eventually, you will either snap or someone will take you to a hospital.

[^SINCE1962]

THREAD SUBJECT

WEATHER CONDITIONS/BASEBALL

WHERE WHEN (in)WHAT

[Paul]

What are these delusions? Is there a difference between 'delusions' and 'foolish delusions?' Its peoples' opinions, not delusions.

You think they have Kool Aid in the hospital? Sounds like you'd know better than most of us.

[Paul]

62, ok, my take. no. I wouldn't spend money and time to go sit outside and sweat my gibblys off then have to fight for a safe spot from lightning. Keep the Trop.

[Rick K to Paul]

Paul opinions are present when something is unknowable, in the future, or impossible to prove. You might think Evan Longoria stinks, I might think he is the best third baseman in the game. That would be a difference of opinion.

A delusion is a belief that is false.

This description, from MindDisorders.Com, explains it best.

"A delusion is a belief that is false and that indicates an abnormality in the affected person's content of thought. The false belief is not accounted for by the person's cultural or religious background or his or her level of intelligence. The key feature of a delusion is the degree to which the person is convinced that the belief is true.

"A person with a delusion will hold firmly to the belief regardless of evidence to the contrary. Delusions can be difficult to distinguish from overvalued ideas, which are unreasonable ideas that a person holds, but the affected person has at least some level of doubt as to its truthfulness. A person with a delusion is absolutely convinced that the delusion is real.

"Delusions are a symptom of either a medical, neurological, or mental disorder. Delusions may be present in any of the following mental disorders:

"psychotic disorders, or disorders in which the affected person has a diminished or distorted sense of reality and cannot distinguish the real from the unreal, including schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, delusional disorder, schizophreniform disorder, shared psychotic disorder, brief psychotic disorder, and substance-induced psychotic disorder, bipolar disorder,
major depressive disorder with psychotic features, delirium, dementia.

"Overvalued ideas may be present in anorexia nervosa, obsessive-compulsive disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, or hypochondriasis."

[John D]

Question: if a delusional paranoid thinks that the guvmint is out ta git him--but the FBI really is following him because of threats he has made, is he still a delusional paranoid?
Now I'm feeling verklempt: discuss among yourselves.

[Harold]

Rick K
Dude
I think you are most likely a very bright person. I admire your passion and find your comments to be insightful. I dont agree with most of them but I think that they represent and important voice that deserves to be heard. But then you seem to digress into some banal personal attacks against the "ANTI'S". Making you an ANTI ANTI.
Is it okay if some of us hold a differing opinion and not be "ANTI's"?
Is it okay if some of us hold differing opinions and not have to be delusional?
Would that be Okay with you?

[Rick K]

Of course Harold. There is plenty of room for a full range of opinions.

One can easily be oppossed to the Stadium without being an ANTI, or without being delusional.

Still, though, Delusions are delusions. Some of these posters in these blogs go beyond simply stating a position or opinion that I disagree with. They insist that things which are not true are true! They believe it.

They are delusional.

I do not think it does our community any good to let the delusional think that their delusions are anything other than delusions. For this reason, when I see delusional ranting disguised as opinion or fact, I will call it out.

You are correct, Harold, that I am committed to oppossing both POWW and the various non-POWW ANTI's who try to dominate these blogs through a combination of cyber-bullying, distraction, ad hominem attacks, and a whole host of dishonorable techniques.

If some who read these blogs don't notice or recognize the disgusting attempt to harm open and honest debate, that is okay. Because I recognize it. And as long as I have the time and the interest, I will call it out.

So, yes, Harold, feel free to think whatever you want. Post. Or don't post. Tis your choice.

But to all who post here, I hope it's obvious by now that you are no longer going to get away with using the Times to add legitimacy to your various lies, deceptions, distortions, distractions and delusions.

We're onto you now!

[Don Mott]

WOW! LOOKOUT! The spooks are onto us. Go Rays!

[Don Mott]

"Some of these posters in these blogs go beyond simply stating a position or opinion that 'I' disagree with". WOW! Go Rays!

[Rick K]

Here comes delusional #1.

Watch him claim that I am not me, and someone else is me, all the while asserting that he "knows" something (and so does 'everyone' else) that is simply not true.

His latest technique is to delude himself into pretending he is not delusional.

HaHaHaHaHaHa. Don Mott cracks us up!

[Evan Longoria]

POORRICKK

[SINCE1962]

SUBJECT THREAD

WEATHER/BASEBALL

WHERE WHEN (in)WHAT

the last thing you 'wizards' need is MORE SUN!

FOCUS STOOOOPID

[Don Mott]

I'm not me. Evan got another homer tonight! Go Rays!

Yes DO go rays!

NEVADA is FULL of potential sun 'stroked'
fans

[G2]

When Barack Hussien Obama did his performance at Gibbs high school, he added a little flavor by having the Uruhu’s there to show how unattached he is to organized black coalitions.
Right after he admonished them for interrupting him they began applauding him for every thing he said.
They were sporting a very professional sign that more than likely was paid for by Obama’a campaign.
There is no way they could be on the stage behind him without his, or the Secret Services knowledge.
Now were is this guy coming from??? .
And By the way ~~ he switched his position on drilling off shore yesterday, is that what you wanted to hear??? Kerry only thought he could flip-flop.

MEDIC

HEATCHECK

Sun Stroke??????????????????????

FLY BALLS???????????????????

Those suckers do bounce around the catwalks.....

Open air stadium not a good idea....

Enclose and confine?

Drilling Stoopid!

Subject is WEATHER....

[Rick K]

Great job by Aaron and the Times on the superb article about the remaining environmental issues at the Trop field property.

Superb work!

Yes Sycophantic off topic rant must be quite pleasing!

Taxpayer 'incentive$' for PRIVATE builder$ to clean up environmental degredation from PRIVATE bu$ine$$ is not quite the clean up the story implied...

Unlike the Jabil deal Taxpayers would get stuck in the the toxic 'muck' this time...

Everything's fine though Mike Connors was quoted in the Times so it MUST be TRUE!

[Rick K]

Nothing even remotely "Sycophantic" or "off topic" about it, Anonymous poster....

The ANTI's attempted to discredit the plans to redevelop Trop Field by fabricating lies out of whole cloth.

Example: That the DEP request for a deed restriction was a demand.

Simply put, those who said that were lying, as there was NO evidence whatsoever to back up their claim. The DEP notices, published on this site, made it quite clear that it was not a demand. A phone call to the DEP also made that clear.

Yet, several POWW folks and their like-minded ANTI's made the LIE a centerpiece of their campaign of distortion and deception.

Here is the telling thing, Anonymous. Not a single ANTI will apologize or express regret for the extent to which they got it wrong.

In fact, they will take the remaining uncertainty about existing contamination at the Trop Field site and use that to JUSTIFY their previous lies which have now been proven to be wrong. (Of course, I said they were lies at the time, but as I am not the St. Pete times....)

There is NOTHING wrong with being opposed to the paired redevelopment proposals. What is wrong is trying to bully or trick others into agreeing with that position thru distortion and deception.

Why can't everyone be committed to true facts, strong opinions, and letting everyone make up their own minds.

I call on everyone in POWW, especially Kathy and Chris Jenkins and Clear Direction, to join me in renouncing any DECEPTION or DISTORTION in this campaign. Let's serve the people by serving the truth, and let everyone decide for themselves.

[Pellar]

Rick K: First off the name is POWW not anti's or critics.

Next, "What is wrong is trying to bully or trick others into agreeing with that position through distortion and deception", to quote you.

Let's see:

1.) Planning this new stadium for years keeping it a secret from the public who are supposed to be their adoring fans.
2.) Using a confidentiality agreement when one was not necessary.
3.) The Rays working in concert with the mayor and city legal department to conceal the out of the public eye skullduggery to avoid public debate prior to the last election.
4.) Working with the mayor to shorten the timeframe from the point of public disclosure (after the election) until the next election such that the public would not have a suficient time to respond.
5.) The Rays secrecy of all pertinent and necessary facts and figures about the entire Rays stadium scheme.
6.) The Rays avoiding all direct public hearing questions or other questions by stating that the requested information was under study, or under production or back on their office desks. Information I might add which "never" came.
7.) The Rays setting up their own Lets Build the Stadium club and The Fans for a Waterfront Stadium front in order to call for a vote they then cancelled.
I could go on but I think their has been plenty of concealment, lieing and deceit from the Rays side to last a lifetime.

Do not attempt to pick on the public who had to come from behind, fund itself, fight the local establishment (city, paper and corporate CEO's, Chamber, etc.)to expose this scam this run on the public's treasure.

I for one will fight this bunch of corporate raiders and conniving public insiders to the end. No amount of Rick K. distractions will deter me and my merry band of volunteers. See you at the next dust up.

[Paul]

Its hot out. I'm inside, wouldn't want to be at a crowded outdoor ballgame now.

Rick Kookaid is still babbling. No surprise. The residents of St Pete are not up for wasting hundreds of millions, Ricko. I give up hope on you ever understanding our beautiful City. Enjoy it, since you claim to live here... and thank those in our history who have worked so hard to make it the beautiful place it is. As for the stadium, blog all day and night, you have zero conviction in most all things you post on.

[Rick K]

Pellar,

Nice Try.

If that is your best defense for the intetional campaign of deception, distortion, exageration and distraction waged by POWW and their like-minded corps of sycophantic ANTI's, you might want to give it up.

Your allegations, reflective of POWW's general approach to all questions, includes lies, distortions, and deceptions. And, in ANY case, it is off point.

You seem to be saying PELLAR (pella?) that POWW was justified in lying to people and trying to trick them.

Sad.

What the Rays did is this:

A. Because they were not sure if they wanted to actually request that the City and County governments vote on supporting a waterfront stadium proposal until all the pieces fit together, they requested that their work towards hammering out the specifics of a proposal be kept confidential, until such time as the proposal was sufficient to convince the Rays management that it would work. This is not only the Rays rights under the law, it is what most adults agree is the best way to hammer out public policy proposals of this sort. Your assertions that the Rays choice to avail themselves of the legal option which was created for ECACTLY this situation was somehow dishonest or underhanded is unserious. And, in any case, it is not a justification for POWW's decision to wage a dishonorable public campaign.

B) The "time frame" during which this proposal would have been in the public eye would have been a year. Most people think that is more than enough time for the public to make up their mind. POWW's chief worry was that they would not have enough time to spread their lies, in order to overcome the natural appeal of the Ray's paired redevelopment proposals. The good news is, we will now have enough time. The longer this debate plays out, the more POWW will be exposed as a group of desperate liars trying anything and everything to prevent the majority from deciding.

C) The Rays did not keep relevent details secret. They released more information than has been released by similar teams at the same points in the timeline in most other American Cities. Your assertion to the contrary is a lie.

D) Your assertion that the Rays avoided public scrutiny of their proposal is ludicrous and dishonest. The "details" did come. And POWW had plenty of opportunity to attack the details, which you did with energy and a specific devotion to propaganda and dishonorable conduct.

E) Fans for a waterfront stadium was not set up by the Rays. Your claims that it were are libelous, untrue, and pathetic.

F) Your characterization of POWW is way off the mark. And your admonition that I should stop "picking" on POWW and like-minded ANTI's is silly. As long as POWW engages in a fundamentally dishonest and dishonorable campaign, there will be people who will speak out against your attempts to deceive the public.

POWW would be better off turning over a new leaf. You'd do better to denounce all past deception, distortions, exagerations, distractions, and remove all bogus or questionable claims from your website. You'd do better to make this a debate about truth, and let people make up their minds based on true facts and strong opinions.

I fully expect that you will ignore my advice. And I predict that the extent to which you do so will be POWW's ultimate undoing.

Sincerely,

Rick K

[get-smart]

RRick K. -

There is no financial scheme that could have worked then. There is no financial scheme that can work now and there is no financial scheme that will work in the future.

The best thing for the Rays to do is take the county ToyTown land and build it themselves. If it's a good deal, they can get the money from their criminal friend investors.

Besides, "The Waterfront is Off Limits!"

[John D]

As usual, I'm late to the discussion, since I just got off work--where BTW, I met a bunch of Tiger fans eager to see the game in an A/C Trop.
To the point: I'm a bit nonplussed at one poster's use of the word "lie." If I take the standard def as 'using a false fact to deceive or create a wrong impression,' I wonder just how POWW has engaged in so many.
For ex, POWW says that the Rays proposal was for 'almost' a half-billion $, with the 'bulk' of the $ coming from the sale of public land and additional taxation.
Certainly these facts are designed to buttress their point--that the waterfront proposal was a bad idea--but prevarication? Enlighten me, please.
Aaand, I'm happy that those Tiger fans spent lots of money--and are going home VERY unhappy with their team's performance. Reminds me of the old Oregon bumper sticker: "Welcome to Oregon! Now go home."

[Bobby Fenton]

I'm staying out of the always nauseating Rick K feud the rest of the posters have going here.

A couple things:

There are a lot of ways to define "multi-use", so what John said in the opening post of this thread may not necessarily be a bad thing, but in the past, multi-use ballparks (Three Rivers, The Vet, etc.) have been stretching it to call thyemselves "ballparks" at all. They have been souless, charmless eyesores not unlike otudoor versions of the Trop. Again, modern technology and design can probably make a "multi-use" place still feel like a baseball-only ballpark (the best kind of park), but still, I hope no one plans on building a mini-mall that happens to have the ability to be configured into a baseball field. That would be a terrible idea. If and when the day comes this gets built, wherever the site is, it deserves and we deserve for it to be one of the coolest parks in MLB, not a "multi-use convention center facility". Again, modern design may make both of these things possible. I'm not an expert on that.

We shouldn't settle for mediocrity, on or off the field.

[Don Mott]

Bobby, I tend to agree with that. I don't know the answers but one proposal recommended previously which sounded good to me was a new stadium and a convention center built at the current site. Add some hotels and retail shops and that may be a winner.

[Don Mott]

I forgot to add, built with private funds and with the total necessary parking garages.

[Pella]

Yes, Rick K. it is Pella not Pellar, my bad.

Yes Bobby Fenton I agree with you. It is absolutely pointless to discuss anything with Rick K. From this point forward I will not respond to him.

[Bobby Fenton]

I didn't single out being for or against Rick K. I said the entire feud was nauseating and that it bogs down every thread.

[Rick K]

I agree with Bobby Fenton, both about the nausea-inducing Feud and his "on the mark" point about seeking to avoid mediocrity.

While I am no Trop basher, I have long thought this community could have done SO much better. Too often, political compromise produces a solution that NO ONE likes. And that seems stupid, really.

[Pella]

Sorry that I misunderstood every nuance of your blog Mr. Fenton but I am still going to avoid Rick K. It is a pointless, circular discussion with no end. He will not change his view nor will I. A Mexican stand off. Besides I am quite tired of his vitriol.

If I had to paint a picture of him my wild guess would be: white, in his sixties, retired, more than a high school education and way too much time on his hands. Chow.

[Harold]

Uhhmm
Back to the weather check thingy
Sunday I took three friends to the game . One of them a Detroit fan in towm for business.
Waiting in the car(a convertable) to get intothe game
we were all glad that it was inside. Detroit fan loved the Trop . He saw No problems with the facility. I would like
Aaron to include me in his little census. Cause I would not have been at an outside venue on Sunday.
But thats just me.

[Rick K]

Harold, with all due respect on this Thread topic... the issue, it seems to me, is not what YOU would prefer....

I think most Rays spectators would rather not bake in the heat.

The point of this weekly recurring thread is to counter the odd improbable assertion by the ANTI's that people will not come out in sufficeint numbers to the ball park if it is outdoors.

Nothing convinces those who assert that people will not come to games in an outdoor park.

If you say to the ANTI's, "Surely you can admit that you are only speculating, because you cannot know for sure."

They ignore you and persist with their assertion.

If you point out that 25-30 thousand people regularly attend outdoor baseball games in the Bay Area each weekend, they ignore you.

If you point out that a review of gametime weather conditions for each home game on last years schedule indicates that about three games would have been postponed and maybe a dozen would have been unbearably hot, they ignore you.

If you attempt, as Aaron is doing, to actually gather objective data in real time, the ANTI's will ignore you.

Truth is, NOTHING will convince the ANTI's that their assertions are false and misleading.

They will not concede an inch.

[Jimbo]

I went to the Ford Amphitheater for the Journey concert on July 30, and it was horrific! The concert started at 7pm and when it was all said and done, 164 people died, 325 people had heat stroke, and another 500+ had to be carted off with dehydration. People were collapsing all over the place because of the extreme 85° heat after 7pm. The cool breeze blowing through nor the canopy over the seats didn't help, as even the stage hands were feared dead by the end of the oppressive night.

I wish I wasn't one of the almost 20,000 that was there, because I think the heat may have permanently made me impotent. It wasn't worth risking my life to watch these legendary musical acts, let alone a first-place baseball team. Please, save yourself! Don't build an outdoor stadium! No one will go in the oppressive 85° 7pm heat! You have been warned!

I just don't know why the Times didn't report the tragedy that this outdoor concert under a similarly-shaped venue as the Rays waterfront ballpark has produced. It must be part of a bigger cover-up, since they still allow concerts there, despite the thousands of dead every week (since they have concerts every week over there). Makes you wonder who's telling the truth and why someone's covering up something....

[John]

Jimbo if you went to a Journey concert you were likely impotent to begin with.

See that storm at Wrigley Monday night that cleared the ballpark and had fans running for cover? You know, the kind we get here almost every evening during baseball season? It made every news broadcast....funny.

[Jimbo]

Yeah, because we usually get 95mph winds and quarter-sized hail all the time here....