Silverman: Trop attendance 'disheartening'

Rays president Matt Silverman had some interesting comments in Thursday's paper, as reported by sports columnist John Romano.

You should read the column here. But I wanted to point out this paragraph in particular:

• Already, there are people in the organization who are suggesting it was a blessing in disguise for the waterfront stadium proposal to fall through. Already, there is talk that downtown St. Petersburg is hopeless as a major-league market and that a location in Hillsborough County might be the answer.

Comments

[Larry]

Don't let the door hit you on the.....the Rays will learn eventually that we don't take kindly to threats.

Most "regular folks", the kind that attend baseball games, can not afford the gas & expense right now. I'm $200 over budget this month due to preparing for a hurricane that never showed up. I know I am not alone. I'd love to be able to go to more games. This isn't the Rays fault, nor should the Rays be blaming the fans for a bad economy.

I also think many potential fans hold a grudge against the Rays for trying to bum rush a taxpayer funded ballpark down their throats when the city is cutting its budget by 10 million.

I do think a partial solution would be something like the NFL does and black out the TV viewers until there's at least 20k in attendence. If people can sit home and watch their team for free, there's not much incentive to get off your butt and go see a game live. Then again that could backfire and turn even more people off, you never know in this market.

[My Town]

NOT TAKING KINDLY TO THREATS, GUILT, STRONG ARMED TACTICS, OR JACK BOOTED THUGS.

[Native]

the city and majority of residents in st. pete are not happy unless they are complaining, about 3 weeks ago this paper runs an article about the lack of parking at the trop and by city councils (nurse) own admission they did not expect the crowds. Now you run an article on the lack of attendance. When will the SPT realize that having a MLB team in st. pete is beneficial to their paper.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Larry,

Thanks for a THOUGHTFUL post. Instead of ranting and raving you point out two very pertinent FACTS.

This economy is in the sh&^ter!!! The business I work for just posted it's worst quarter in over a decade! Simply take a look at the for sale signs and the thousands of foreclosures in the bay area alone. I realize if you're an MLB owner, or player, you might even lose track of how many houses you own..but for the rest of us who work for a living, baseball is still part of what used to be referred to euphemistically as "disposable" income. Do the rest of you have "disposable" income. I'd love to help you dispose of some of it. LMAO. Notice another article in the very same St. Pete Times that reported about golf courses going under because of lack of business. Alas it seems as if all the "disposable" income has already been disposed of...forgive the dangling preposition.

The other important point you make Larry is about FREE TV. The Bucs face the real possibility that some home games may not be televised this year. The NFL is very strict...no sellout..no TV. Larry you make a very reasonable compromise...perhaps less that 20,000 no TV. I realize the logistical problems of clearing TV schedules etc but SOMETHING could be worked out to help ease the problem.

Of course there is a 3rd and final point to be made. As much as I enjoy baseball...grew up watching the what used to be called the Cincinnati Redlegs...yes I'm that old...it could be that baseball is only attractive in the old traditional markets. The Marlins won the World Series and have never packed them in...then again perhaps a stadium next the the Ford Amphitheatre is the way to go at the intersection of I-4 and I-75. That is not only a CENTRAL location...it doesn't DISFIGURE a beautiful waterfront or cause 81 days a year of traffic gridlock in downtown St. Pete.

Am I the only one here taken back by the fact that there are members of the organization who say, "Already, there is talk that downtown St. Petersburg is hopeless as a major-league market and that a location in Hillsborough County might be the answer."

All I can say is BITE ME!!! You idiots put our town through an incredibly divisive six month period, pitting citizen against citizen, citizens against their government...and NOW YOU are talking about the fact downtown St. Pete may not be good for baseball.

Rick K if you have a brain you will realize that we are now all in this together...we were USED AND ABUSED BY THE RAYS OWNERSHIP!!! Read their quote again!!!!

[Clear Direction]

Well,

I believe the Ray's organization needs to determine if the Tampabay market is one which is able to support a major league team.

Because if they are asking this community to spend hundreds of millions of public money to build a baseball specific ballpark, It would be devastating for the area, for the team to realize at that point that the Demographics don't make sense!

The Ray's continue to put the cart before the horse and to plan poorly!

I sure hope they can get the front office performing as well as their on-field staff!

[Matthew]

As the article points out, even with a winning team, adequate parking in an easy-to-get-to location and lots of fun and free stuff for the fans, the people are still not showing up. Why on earth do the Rays think they need a new stadium. If the above does not draw people a new stadium sure won't. But they'll continue to whine for one because that is the name of the franchise game: owners force the local government to cough up millions in taxpayer money to build their team a stadium, they watch the value of the stadium double or triple and then sell. It's not about fans, it's about the money. **

** Jerry Jones bought the Cowboys in 1989 for $150 million. The team will move into a new, $1.1 billion stadium in 2009 - paid for by tax money (oh, and by the way, the stadium was originally budgeted at $650 million. Yes, it really is a good thing for St. Pete that the waterfront stadium idea fell through) Forbes magazine just reported that the Cowboys are the world's most valuable sports franchise, worth about $1.5 billion. See what a new stadium can do to a team's value?

This is what the Rays want. Nothing more

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2007/12/17/daily43.html

[Native]

truly- how is my problem if someone got in over their head when they made the biggest purchase of their life, I am so tired hearing about foreclosures, all that means is you overbought in an inflated market on an interest only loan, prices start coming back to reality and you are stuck, so now that is my problem? if you want to use gas prices and unemployment as an excuse fine, but that is a nationwide issue not a st. pete or pinellas issue. People are still going to games nationwide and attendance is up for the year.

[Paul]

So the Rays owners killed spring training for nothing other than to get a new stadium. Thanks Rays owners. Leave now. No one will miss you... better yet, sell your ball team to our City and we'll run it, seeing as how much money we already subsidize towards the Trop. NYC carpet baggers.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Native,

I get your point. You are from the Phil Gramm school of economics. Tough crap for the folks not educated enough to realize what they were getting into. Certainly they bear some responsibility. However as someone who works in real estate you are sadly mistaken if you don't believe the misfortune of others effects you as well. Yes it is your problem!!! Until those foreclosures are absorbed the market will continue to remain depressed. Presuming you don't yet own any property...otherwise you would be aware of how much those foreclosures have and continue to devalue your property...you will still be effected by the slowdown in our economy. Of course I don't really know you..perhaps you are already independently wealthy and don't even remember how many houses you own.
Yes the borrowers bear some responsibility, but so do the lending institutions out SELLING these horrid loans which of course tended to go to the highest credit risks (read the least educated among us) and so do Gramm and all the others who packaged all these junk mortgages into "financial instruments" and wrecked our economy. Somehow I believe Gramm probably came out of all these financial disasters OK. I assume Native that you are also upset that our government bailed out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and a couple of high end New York Investment firms.

More germain to what we are discussing however is the white elephant on the waterfront. Even though you're obviously an MLB fan, you can understand the lack of wisdom in investing soooo much money when the owners of the business claim...
"it was a blessing in disguise for the waterfront stadium proposal to fall through. Already, there is talk that downtown St. Petersburg is hopeless as a major-league market"

And please don't give me a line of crap about what losers we are because we may not appreciate what you love with the same intensity as Red Sox or Cubbie fans. I shall not chastise you for not appreciating our sidewalk cafes, our open waterfront parks where we can ride bikes, hike, stroll, loll or whatever. Perhaps you don't appreciate the quarter of a million people (many of them international guests) the Dali Museum draws...but that's cool whatever floats your boat. But please don't view a lack of substantial fan base for MLB as some form of community deficiency.

[JudyToo]

Baker and Mussett must be having a lot of crow for dinner tonight. Those goofballs tried real hard to put one over on us - even had the city council all riled up, spending time and money on a scheme that would have gone bad, real bad, for our fair city, which, after all, "is hopeless as a major-league market and that a location in Hillsborough County might be the answer."

Wonder why they couldn't figure out that the economy was getting real soft, parking would be a problem, no one wants to pay more for a ticket and sit out in the heat and humidity, that actually we are just not a major league town? Oh, that's right. It didn't matter - we were footing the bill, the whole enchilada. If things didn't work out, it was us holding the bag as they went off to somewhere else.

I gotta ask, what happened? Those two guys were in cahoots with the Rays and both were telling us how much the Rays mean to St. Pete and how important it was for us to give them our waterfront and a $450 million stadium and all the infrastructure to make it work.

Now the Rays say we aren't a major league town and they might better look across the bay? I certainly hope so. I hope they are already planning their moves on the Tampa folks - they seem to love buying stadiums over there and they have plenty of room and plenty of money for yet another one. Maybe. Does it have to be on the waterfront? Or will anywhere do as long as the taxpayers foot the bill?

I CAN'T WAIT! 2009 will be a great year! Rays gone to Tampa. Mayor gone. Mussett should already be gone. He's one of those guys that just doesn't get it - he'll stick around forever if he can.

Hopefully we can get rid of the bozos on city council who kept saying they have to pander to the Rays because they are sooooo important to St. Pete and we have to be fair to them. Some of them will be running for mayor - let's see what their story is now! Some of them will be running for re-election. Let's see what their story is now!

Unfortunately we are stuck with a couple of them - the ones who really should be running - running right out of town with embarrassment. Oh that's right, city council doesn't get embarrassed. They know it all.

Anyway, I think ol' Matt has just about put all the icing on the cake now and we can finally celebrate!

Or maybe he will wake up and figure out that he and the Rays are making a whole lot of money with their sweetheart deal at the Trop and quit whining. Their franchise keeps appreciating every year, they make a ton of money (something like third most profitable team in the league), they have a cozy air conditioned stadium and plenty of parking. And they have that sweetheart deal until 2027.

Maybe they better get smart and stick around even if attendance is down - they have been making lots of money every other year with lousy attendance, so they should be used to it.

Point is, they do need to leave. Lots of us are getting really tired of their schemes and their belly-aching. And very tired of those children who keep posting all those insane comments telling us why the Rays are so wonderful and why we should build them a new stadium wherever they want it and we shouldn't ask any questions, we should just vote. Well we will get to vote in 2009 and that's when we get to clean house!

[Native]

truly,

I am a property owner although not independently wealthy, and I understand how the foreclosures "devalue" my property, I am just tired of the masses crying about them. How many times do we hear the sob stories from investors or your real estate colleagues (because they decided to get into the flipping biz) that they are losing 1 of their "investments" and possibly their primary home because they were greedy and saw the quick cash.

Obviously we are on opposite sides of the baseball and stadium fence, I favor MLB in St. Pete and would love to see a waterfront stadium. I see the value it would bring to an ever changing landscape in downtown. I also see the value in the parks and museums, I believe they would feed off of each other. I enjoy going downtown regardless of what is taking place, Mainsail, Ribfest, Taste of Pinellas etc, I attend these events and visit our museums as well. I believe our waterfront is underutilized, just as our port is. I do not agree with the idea of al lang becoming another park, that will not generate any type of revenue, and the argument of a permanent home for the Sat morning market is ridiculous, if they want to put the Sat morning market in a park setting the already have a slew of choices available.

I am not claiming to be an expert on these subjects, just my own opinions of the city where I was born and raised.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Native,

What a well thought out and responsible post. It is an illustration to other posters on how to disagree without resorting to juvenile, personal, ad hominem attacks. Of course I completely RESPECT your opinion. In fact I suspect we agree far more than we disagree. I would love for MLB to remain in St. Petersburg, just not on the waterfront.
I was not born in St. Pete but I made a CHOICE to live here. Home is where the heart is and not where some accident of sperm meeting ovum dictates. This is not to disrespect the fact that you are a justifiably proud "native" of our wonderful city...simply to place it in perspective. Having been raised in Cincinnati and watched what stadiums have done to my FORMER home town's waterfront I can only tell you it's not very pretty. Now imagine if the Ray's management newest line of reasoning is right and the team failed to draw on the waterfront. It would bring new meaning to the term "white elephant".
I am a commercial broker and so not largely effected by the "residential" foreclosures in any way different than you. And while I absolutely agree with you that the borrowers bear some responsibility so do the lenders and the regulators or should I more correctly say the DE regulators like Phil Gramm who all grew rich on this debacle while their fellow citizens suffer.
And so I conclude by saying that it is far easier for me to "feel the pain" of the family who perhaps made a bad decision in the hopes of building a better future for their children..than it is for the co-conspirators of this national tragedy. The real estate professionals...some of them my friends..who looked the other way during the runup to this irresponsibility...or as you suggest even exacerbated the situation by "flipping" or speculating themselves. Appraisors who simply looked at contracts and signed off on whatever value was needed to close...realtors who perhaps failed to caution the buyers because they too needed to close..lending institutions who floated these garbage mortgages in hopes of grabbing the quick buck...but most of all the people like Phil Gramm who went from a position of "regulation" to a position of taking advantage of the "regulations" he DE regulated. Who personally profitted millions by assembling these trash mortgages into so called "financial instruments" to trade internationally..and the fact that these people walked away unscathed in the mess and then have the nerve to call those whose mistakes have forever disrupted the lives of their families whiners is just disgusting.

[Harold]

This will never end
When there are 20K it will be a shame ther isn't 25k then 30k
the Rays are entitled to be disappointed. To be succesful you must own those disappointments and find ways to improve. I wonder if the "Whis Kids" are really commited to the long haul or are they just looking for the big "Score". The fact that their background is wall street makes me think the later more than the former. Here is a metaphore . Just because your daughters date started shaving and wearing a clean shirt for three dates in a row are you ready to bless their marriage?
the St pete fans have been beat down and disappointed and I think most of them are waiting for teh other shoe to drop. I think they are afraid it wont last and the Rays will be this years Mets.
I think that it would be counter productive to take the team off TV at this time. I thnk its an important part of building a fan base. Maybe St pete cant support the team but moving it to tampa If there not going to come across the bridge theyre not going to go no matter where it is. Is it possibel to improve the draw from Orlando? maybe But thats a pretty big gamble. keep winning and convince the fans that they have a good product if there is no improvment over the next two years then I would say they gave it a reasonable try. But to expect 10 years of crap to be forgotten in a couple of months is unrealistic. i doubt attendance will be an issue for the remaining games. The issue is next years season ticket sales.
But thats just my thoughts
ANd Im No Joe
Im just some schmoe
OUT

[Pella]

The way I see it. The citizens are alright. The Rays players are alright. It is the Rays management that stinks. Can't we just fire them and get new management that would be happy to play here in St. Pete? Why do we have to have corporate raiders for our teams owners? So much for them coming in to be a local business wanting to help the city.

The only thing Matt Silverman wants is a bigger wallet with more slots for holding more money. What sad commentary, especially in a world with so many hurting economically. And all this clown wants is to get richer. He is rich enough.

[Scaramouche]

To John Romano
jromano@sptimes.com
re: “Pennant Fever?”, Times front page, 8/28/08

Dear Sir:

Didn’t I just see an analysis, maybe by a Times writer, of how the fan base here is doing enriching the Rays owners and players through ticket sales, relative to other MLB, Inc. “markets?”

My aging recall is that for the population base, “we” are right up near the top in “fan participation.”

Just the other day your paper had an article on how baseball fans in other “major markets” like NYC are pretty much spitting on the ticket price offerings of the NYC MLB, Inc. teams. Wonder why?

Maybe these patently greedy franchise owners, in their arrogance and their assumption that the demand for their “product” is inelastic and not subject to market forces, are seeing “it ain’t so, Joe.”

I used to go to a lot of games at Wrigley Field and Comiskey Park, and after I moved to Seattle, at the Dome there. Sit in the cheap seats, box score the games, know and actually care about a lot of the players and follow their stats.

But I think I’m like a lot of folks, who can’t taste the difference between a $2 hot dog and a $10 offering, or a $1 can of Bud Light at home and the $8 or $9 dollar beer at the so-ironically-named “concessions” at the local MLB, Inc. stadium which I have been so kindly allowed to pay the purchase price and insurance and maintenance on. Now gas is expensive and parking is an expensive or bothersome pain in the butt.

The Rays owners are particularly obnoxious, though only in degree compared to other franchisees. These guys bought the franchise, knowing a whole lot about tricky business from their participation in the runup to the present “sub-prime” bubble-pop. What’s with the notion, therefore, and their present whining that it’s not panning out, that profit and increased value from an “investment” like an MLB, Inc. franchise is supposed to be automatic, and a free ticket to even more wealth? Or that they are “entitled” to a Free New Stadium, at the expense of everyone in Pinellas County, for being so good as to honor their contract and “keep the team here?”

Baseball is a great game, but that’s all it is. Whatever their skills, $44 million players are not worth it, in the absolute sense. In a general boom and a period of huge upward wealth transfers to people who already have “more than enough” disposable income, excesses like huge player salaries and $100 million subsidized new “team office palaces” might be argued by the few (including grossly overpaid and demonstrably incompetent CEOs as “okay.” Along with billions of dollars for new Coliseums for our pinstriped basepath gladiators. But there’s a limit, and I can’t say it breaks my heart to see these pampered pouffes running into it like Billy Williams hitting Wrigley’s vine-covered outfield wall in vain pursuit of a long fly.

These Rays owners are MBAs, and they likely studied “the beer game” at B-school. Sorry, Charlies, but no amount of drum-beating and chest-beating and whining will get them past the reality that they’ve priced yourselves out of their own market, not just here but in a lot of places.

The attendance numbers, and the various other cells in their spreadsheets that hold various multiples of that basic figure, have got nothing to do with a too-weak case of that disease called “pennant fever,” no matter how much you squinch your eyes, shake your fists and stamp your feet.. Your natural prey, the “baseball fan,” has been inoculated by his or her own economic troubles and your obvious and excessive greed.

Best regards.

[Scaramouche]

And Native, what's happened to your insurance and tax bills, or are you rich enough to self-insure and sniff at the tax bump?

There are older "native" people who were prudent and followed the best investment advice and just LIVED in thier homes and raised their families and were civic-minded, were teachers and nurses and maybe even actual efficient government employees (there are some). Some of these people are losing their homes and any hope of something better than being ignored off down the nasty hallways of some Medicare-based "nursing home," at the sorry ends of their lives, because, in part, of the "Flip This House-ers" and of course because of the Phil Gramm-ers -- to foreclosure and tax sales (the latest "bubble-" based scam), all because they what? weren't intelligentlly greedy enough? Because the ones who lived the '50s American Dream of a picket fence and a pension after 5 decades of loyal service discovered that some set of smartypants lobbied legislative changes that let the $100-milion-a-year CEO steal the pension fund and renege on the rest of the social contract?

Got any spare empathy for them, or for the nurses and teachers and firemen and such of today, who are also losing their modest homes in this great "greed-is-good"-inspired meltdown?

I hope YOU and your loved ones won't end up in some of the Manors in this burg -- but then YOU are probably slick enough to have covered that, right?

God bless.

And maybe we could open up a suicide parlor, you know, lobby through a change in the law that would let the old and obviously unfit expire peacefully like my old dog at the vet's. And then maybe we could form a company, let's call it "The Soylent Company," and use the dead bodies as fertilizer for some green and yellow and red stuff that we could sell to the remaining stiffs as food! Sound like a real opportunity?

[Scaramouche]

Maybe we could even package the Green stuff into Hot Dogs we could sell at the Waterfront Stadium!

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Scaramouche,

Your 7:23PM Post was the very best on this thread and perhaps all the others.
It wrapped up this issue so concisely that I can add no more. Excellent!!!

[John D]

Well, it wasn't THAT great; good, yeah.
Here's the problem, IMHO: the Rays really ARE an asset to the St. Pete community. I sell stuff to tourists, and believe me, when the whole family is wearing Indians gear,or Jays gear, it's easy to figure where they're coming from. Bottom line--it doesn't really matter if the Rays owners are greedy bastards, Gekko-ites who think 'greed is good.' What matters is that the Rays remain here for the community good. Even IF they make money, because we do benefit, and not just from 'civic pride.'

On the waterfront? Nah. At the Trop? Sure! I ask every tourist, "whereya from?" and "what brings ya to downtown?" The ones from out of state say, "the ballgame."
And a side note: Monday a lady asked me what the weather was gonna be like, because she was going to the game Tuesday. I was nonplussed, to say the least, and explained why it wouldn't matter! She didn't know, but we do. Long live the Trop! And go Rays--just don't try to jump into, or fill in, the bay.

[harold]

Scaramouche
I hear what you're saying
But i see something else between the lines
Quote "Because the ones who lived the '50s American Dream of a picket fence and a pension after 5 decades of loyal service discovered that some set of smartypants lobbied legislative changes that let the $100-milion-a-year CEO steal the pension fund and renege on the rest of the social contract"
Perhaps you were under the mistaken impression that you were living in a socialistic society instead of a capitilistic.
I read these argument over and over and they all boil down to "If you have more money than me you probably dont deserve it".
Where are all you hard working retires when it comes to pay for the schools in Florida? I guess since you dont have any kids in school its not your problem.
you mentioned firemen and other social services. Did you vote for a tax increase to pay for them?
If you think that professional sports players and Owners dont deserve the money they make then dont go to the games. dont support the teams by watching sports on TV.
no one makes you pay admission or buy
Eight dollar beers.
Quote "Baseball is a great game, but that’s all it is. Whatever their skills, $44 million players are not worth it, in the absolute sense. In a general boom and a period of huge upward wealth transfers to people who already have “more than enough” disposable income, excesses like huge player salaries and $100 million subsidized new “team office palaces” might be argued by the few (including grossly overpaid and demonstrably incompetent CEOs as “okay.” "
Who decides they have "Enough"?
You ?
the government? Church?
I missed the part in the constitution that said it was wrong to make more money than Scaramouche.
I reviewed the salaries of the Rays on MLB website. I didnt see any 44 million dollar players{ note the table below.)

No I dont think, as 9=8 thinks, that you have said it all
i think that you are suffering from Envy. How do you know what school the owners went to? Who are you to suggest that they didnt earn their degrees and studied the "beer game" ' to quote you again.
this may come as a shock to you and others on this post,but nobody owes you anything.
Nobody owes you a pension. Nobody owes you a home or a job or healthcare or even food. Nobody owes you a baseball team in your hometown. Market forces, Not Social interest run this country. And all the whinning about your position in life wont change the fact that you chose your own path. If you wanted to be a millionaire you probably shouldnt have been working a job for fifty years holding out for a pension. Why do you deserve a better place to live than a retirement community "Manor". Because you worked? because you are an AMERICAN?
Or Are you one of those that Want a pension and a health care and medicare but you want somebody else to pay the difference between your contibutions and the real cost BUT nobody can make more money than you?
Yeah
maybe instead of busting on the Owners because they have "MORE THAN enough " disposable income you should do some remedial math and see what a burden YOU are on the social system. I challange you to review the contributions to your retirement , Social security and medicare over your lifetime and then add up the benifits that you have /will recieve,. Whether you admit it or Not I KNOW that you are going to be a little short. Whos supposed to pick up the difference? ME? The Government?
If its too expensive dont go to the game and dont watch the game But dont try to turn it into some Social commentary on the evils of Capitalism when you cant even pull your own weight for the last 20 years of your life. Nobody cares that you worked hard for five decades.
Thats what you were supposed to do.

Here is the table of salaries I promised
Note the lack of (quote)"$44 million players"
1. Carlos Pena 6,000,000
2. Carl Crawford 5,375,000
3. Troy Percival 3,897,797
4. Scott Kazmir 3,785,000
5. Chad Bradford 3,666,667
6. Dan Wheeler 2,875,000
7. Cliff Floyd 2,750,000
8. Akinori Iwamura 2,400,000
9. Rocco Baldelli 2,250,000
10. Trever Miller 1,600,000
11. James Shields 1,000,000
12. Eric Hinske 800,000
13. Jason Bartlett 416,600
14. Gabe Gross 414,000
15. Edwin Jackson 412,700
16. Dioner Navarro 412,500
17. B.J. Upton 412,100
18. Matt Garza 404,600
19. Willy Aybar 401,200
20. Chad Orvella 400,700
21. J.P. Howell 397,400
22. Jason Hammel 396,300
23 a. Ben Zobrist 395,800
23 b. Andy Sonnanstine 395,800
25. Shawn Riggans 392,100
Total Team Salary: 43,422,997

NO JOE
ALL SCHMOE
OUT

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Harold,

Since you are so against SOCIALISM AND WELFARE I presume you are against asking taxpayers for a 15 MILLION DOLLAR ANNUAL Subsidy to help pay those handsome salaries you listed. Carl Crawford is due a huge increase next year and so by then you'll be able to take the top 3 salaries ALONE and come up with a payment for a new facility for these millionaires to work.

Great lecture Harold...it'll just have more impact if you put our taxpayer money where your mouth is and not to fund folks who need it the least!!!!

[Scaramouche]

Last time I checked, Harold, I have "enough" myself and a little bit left over to share with some folks who have less than I do. I live frugally like a lot of folks, out of a sense that it's the right thing to do. If you want us to believe the economic system in play in this country is "capitalism," you and RRricckk need to go in a corner together and wink and nod and tell each other how much better and smarter you are than everyone else, and maybe better off, too! And come out with some mealy-mouthed factoids about how it's all true!

Thanks possibly to the corporate welfare state that's existed here since before the railroad builders got "the government" to give them every other section of land across the continent, since J.P. Morgan did his public beneficence in his robber baron performance, since the oil and tire and car companies got together to kill off intra-and inter-urban rail lines, since "timber and pulp" companies get pretty much free woodstocks off public lands, and the military equipment suppliers and other government contractors that suckle shamelessly off the taxpayer's withering breast, and even our very own Rays owners, who were part of that great social movement that one day will be known as the "greedisgood'deregulation'savingsandloandotcomsub-primebailout" era.

So it's okay by you if a corporate raider, having jiggered the law that applies by "buying influence" in Congress, grabs "legal" control of a corporation and rips off the pension funds that were an earned part of employees' compensation, to pay for his "raid?" Life ain't fair, but enough of those is the reason you find revolutions in other countries, including the colonies that became our own. So maybe if you had an enlightened notion of "enlightened self-interest," you might see that there's some, ah, virtue in having a little concern about the guy or gal with the Cotton-top, as some of your fellow-travelers put it, who bags your groceries at Publix. If nothing else, I bet you (like me) are a great believer in the power that comes from a gun, courtesy of the NRA's reading of the Second Amendment.

Nothing you say is going to persuade me, and nothing I say is going to persuade you that your smug sense of personal rightness is based on some fundamental falsehoods. So keep a good grip on your rationalizations about how the theory that the fittest survive and prosper as proof of their status among the Elect -- that social Darwinism is just peachy, Bunkie. They're the stuff that people who claim a profound belief in Creationism and call the notion of evolution an abomination, have no trouble believing fiercely at the same time. Right there in the same mind that says that the weak NATURALLY succumb.

The shrinks call it "cognitive dissonance." Not a virtue. In my mind, at least.

2007
1. Alex Rodriguez New York Yankees $ 27,708,525
2. Jason Giambi New York Yankees $ 23,428,571
3. Derek Jeter New York Yankees $ 21,600,000

My values system is way different from yours, and the above seems a little out of keeping with the old Golden Rule, and all those teachings of all those old-time religions.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Scaramouche,

You argue with intelligence and wit. Alas I am not sure that intelligence is the asset it used to be.

How many houses do you own...I don't know.

What about evil...I'll fight it!!!

What have you done to become qualified to be VP and a 72 year old heartbeat away from assuming the Presidency. Well I've governed a state with a population smaller than 15 of our American cities for 18 months...ohhh but wait...I was a member of the PTA...and Mayor of a city of 9,000...and by golly I'm a member of the NRA and I can kill a Moose.

George Orwell must be rolling over in his grave laughing as he's viewed the past 8 years of American government.

What about nuance?...What's that mean?

[get-smart]

Harold -

If I may interject. I'm not going to defend Scaramouche or his fandango but not to long ago many companies provided defined benefit plan retirements (pensions) to its employees. The pension is now a thing of the past for the average worker. The pension is a contract between the company and employee. This is not socialism.

The Federal Reserve System (Fed), which is not government, is a private corporation that is owned by the big investment banks (Goldman Sachs, BoA, etc) and the thirty richest families in the world. In fact the list of owners is a secret.

These people have the power to print U.S. Dollars. That is not capitalism. These people suppled our U.S. Dollars to set up shop and export our American $30/hr job to Mexico and China in exchange for $8/hr service jobs here in America. That is not Capitalism.

The reason they did this was to increase profits using cheap labor and American technology. The CEO's and directors were stuffing their pockets with the cost difference between American labor and foreign. The banks made trillions on the higher stock prices. These people know what they are doing and are criminals.

These people are dis-assembling America and we are letting them. There is no world market. There is no capitalism.

These people are creating a single world bank for us to kowtow before.

As far as the players go, if there is that much money in the game pay the players.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Since this has morphed into something broader than just a stadium and misuse of taxpayers funds....take a look at what ten billion dollars a month in Iraq is buying us...,.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/08/30/iraq.china.oil.deal/index.html

[Harold]

The Federal Reserve System (Fed), which is not government, is a private corporation that is owned by the big investment banks (Goldman Sachs, BoA, etc) and the thirty richest families in the world. In fact the list of owners is a secret.
From get smart
"These people have the power to print U.S. Dollars. That is not capitalism. These people suppled our U.S. Dollars to set up shop and export our American $30/hr job to Mexico and China in exchange for $8/hr service jobs here in America. That is not Capitalism. "

Which people? the Fed?
Or the rays Owners? Or the Triumverate ?
The exit of Jobs you talk about was due to NAFTA not the fed
Correct?
Next quote
"The banks made trillions on the higher stock prices."
the banks?
Or would that Be the Stockholders?
Perhaps many banks were stockholders but ordinary citizens own stock and benifit from that stock appreciation. even Pension funds own said stock

A truly concerned citizen said:
"Since you are so against SOCIALISM AND WELFARE I presume you are against asking taxpayers for a 15 MILLION DOLLAR ANNUAL Subsidy to help pay those handsome salaries you listed."
I am unsure of which 15 million dollars susidy you are referring to but the answer would still be yes I am against the use of Public funds to fund private enterprize unless a defined benifit exist for the community. An example would be a toll road for instance that is built with bonds guarenteed by federal or State monies. But a stadium? No sorry, cant see the benifit despite the Ricksters economics.
This one from scarmouche ;"If you want us to believe the economic system in play in this country is "capitalism," you and RRricckk need to go in a corner together and wink and nod and tell each other how much better and smarter you are than everyone else, and maybe better off, too! And come out with some mealy-mouthed factoids about how it's all true!"
Now,now, now, there was no need to be mean. Mealy mouthed factoid? I gave you a table. second off the "you " i was referring to wasn't the person but rather the Poster "Scaramouche". For all i know you could be a very wealthy librarian who doesnt need social secuity or medicare.
You still havn't answered the questions I posed to you.
Who decides when someone has enough money?
And Who are you to imply that the rays ownership have performed Evil Deeds to gain their wealth? Or is it just "PROFIT IS EVIL"?
I again suggest that your blanket statments reveal an attitude of "More Money than Me Must be Wrong"
You seem to have a penchant for lumping and grouping as evidenced by your knee jerk attempt to link me with Rick. I understand the benifit of this. It doesnt require or allow for thougtful debate. just toss a blanket over the whole lot of them and if someone disagrees then they must be Evil Too.
Excellent premature termination of discourse ,challange and rebuttal.

The attachment of Labels of "Good ,Bad,Greedy,Honest Dishonest" imply that you have some divine knowledge of motives and content of heart. Usually these sorts of labels are just thin underpinning to support a position or argument with a shaky foundation.
Out

[get-smart]

Harold you don't understand what is happening.

[harold]

I dont?
Aw Schucks?
Does that mean I can't vote?

let me sum up what i have been trying to relate.
1) No new stadium at this time
2)Wealthy doesn't equal Greedy and getting paid less than someone else doesnt make you deserving
3)Having a firm belief doesnt make it right
4) Only God knows if someone is Evil

% Support the team in the way you see fit or not. God still loves us all the same. Even the Owners of the Rays

[John D]

Harold--
I for one think you understand quite a few things, and IMHO, here they are (or aren't, as the case may be):
4) I know Osama bin Laden is Evil, and I'm not God.
3)Boy, are you right! However, everyone does have a right to an opinion, no matter how stupid.
2)Some people are just to the manor born--take Dubya for example--and are not really greedy. On the other hand, there are degrees of greed, and not everybody thinks that enough is never enough--take Nelson Poynter for example. Success in business is OK by me. As to the 'deserving' argument: you'll never convince me that I was ever paid enough. I always deserved more than those jerks paid me. Period.
1)Amen.

[Scaramouche]

Harold, I must abase myself and prostrate me down before your superior judgment of what's Good and Evil, whether there even ARE any such categories, and what is Just The Way Things Are.

Of course, I know The Way Things Are, and I think a lot of us simpler humans have this obviously misguided notion that those "religions" we are supposed to adhere to have a notion of kindness and fairness and honor built into them, by the people recognized as "holy" who are their manifest God or prophet.

As to who decides about "enough" money, in your world there is apparently no such category. There are folks in the past who have decided the contest between their right to survive and prosper, and the right of some "capitalist" or "communist leader" or "kleptocratic despot," by use of spear, gun or garrote.

If I get your philosophy, I guess the Emir and the Sheik are entitled to whatever they can grab off the table, Right? Gotta say, "profit" is not necessarily "evil," but is there anything in your universe that IS evil, other than maybe Guv'ment regulators" and the SEC? Osama bin Ladin, for example, or Hitler or Pol Pot or Idi Amin? Do you think you have any right to judge the content of their hearts and their motives? Or is averything just tooth and claw and predators fighting over a carcass?

As for God being the only One who knows who's evil, I guess you haven't any use for the Bible, Old or New, which gives some pretty clear indications on the subject. Including some pretty straight talk about whether "profit" is okay. Maybe that T-shirt I picked up in Vietnam with the slogan "Kill 'Em All And Let God Sort 'Em Out" is the Right idea.
But thanks for the sophistry. by theway, I might like more income, but I do think I am presently paid "enough." I don't "envy" the outrageously rich, but I do get ever so slightly annoyed by their notion that "God gave me my money" and that if other people starve, toughsky shirtsky.

Oh, and the outsourcing of US jobs by those paragons of virtue, "American Capitalists," was under way well before NAFTA. But who's counting.

But once again, you and will never see eye to eye on any of this, so you go ahead and criticize the attachment of labels by others while you do so yourself every day. As one of the apparent Elect, God has seemingly blessed you with the ability to rationalize The Way Things Are.

[get-smart]

Harold - Something to think about -

It is the CEO's and Directors of these corporations that are the greedy criminals. The CEO's pump up the value of the corporations in the short term just long enough for them (ceo) to rob hundreds of millions of dollars at the expense of the shareholders. Examples are Enron, Bear Stearns, next is Lehmen. There are other stock where the corporate stock soared at $60/$70 per share on 'pumping and dumping' and pure lying. The stocks are now worth $8/share. The CEO's walk away billionaires. The Rays owner's come from this background. These people produce absolutely nothing. They are selling this country off.

You cannot tell me the Rays owners are not greedy SOBs. They have the means to set up a stadium corp and sell shares. The Stadium corp can buy their own land and stadium. They know though, that a stadium is a losing proposition. That is why they want us to build it for them.

[guy]

This article containing Sivermans statement about not have a full house at the Trop was when we were awaiting Hurricane Fay .
Why dont you guy's get a life or move on der Org.

[John D]

Heh. I agree: guy should get a life.