What lies beneath the Trop

So many of you probably have seen our story from the weekend about the environmental conditions at Tropicana Field. If you haven't, you can read it here. We started working on the story before the Rays' announced plans to put off a stadium referendum, but decided to publish the story anyway since the redevelopment of Tropicana Field will no doubt be key.

The big take away from our reporting is that most experts -- even the environmental lawyer working with people opposed to the Rays' waterfront plans -- agree that the environmental situation isn't a deal breaker. It will just take time and some smart people.

What do you think?

Comments

[Rick K]

Congrats and thanks (again) to Aaron and the Times for yet another superbly reported article about an important topic.

Of course, not a single POWWian or ANTI will come forward and admit they were wrong in claiming that the DEP request for a deed restriction was a demand. Nor will the POWWians thank Aaron for his terrific reporting.

Instead, they will use the honesty of the officials who admitted that there is a chance (although slight) that there might be some significant contamination at the Trop Field site that we don't already know about to justify their attempts to scare people with fabrications, lies, exagerations and distortion.

The Times reporters previously didn't know that the POWWians were lying. Now that they know, it will be harder and harder for the POWWians to gain any additional traction. And that is a good thing.

I have no idea what sort of stadium proposal will come from the work of the ABC Coaltion, and I cannot predict how the community will recieve that proposal. But I do know that the more that POWW remains commited to their dishonorable campaign of deception, the less sway they will have with the media and voters. And that is a good thing.

Let the consideration of these important questions about the future of our community be conducted in a fair and honest manner.

[Thomas]

Rick, we get it. You dont like POWW.

Time to move on. Maybe try obsessing on a new conspiracy. Here's a quick list to get you started:

- Lunar Landing
- Grassy Knoll
- Big Foot
- Roswell
- Loch Ness

Tighten up that tin foil hat and start on a new crusade Kool Aid.

[Paul]

Hey hey hey, Kool Aid! (isn't that how the old commercial went?)

Deal breaker? I'm thinking hundreds of millions in tax money is the deal breaker for me. That, and a mega uber stadium on the waterfront.

[Rick K]

Paul, I have NO problem with your opinion.

Do you join me in calling for the end to all attempts to corrupt this debate through deception, distraction, distortion, exageration, straw man arguments and similar dishonorable tactics?

Now is the time for POWW to clean up their website, add the names of their key members to the site, and take a public vow to work towards an honest and fair debate.

[Paul]

uhhhm, no. I don't want to join in your anti poww crusade Rick. Sorry, I just don't see things the way you see them... and quite honestly, I have better things to do at the moment.

What's under the Trop doesn't really matter... at some point in the future, in 5 years or in 50 years or in 100 years, the Trop will be replaced and it'll have to be dealt with.

[Thomas]

What are you even talking about? You keep referring to all these lies, deceptions, distractions, etc by POWW. But, in reality, there doesn't seem to be anything even remotely dishonest on their site.

I think you just don't like people opposed to your opinion.
After all, you did stake a huge claim to how wonderful the Al Lang plan was; then you had to watch it get completely flushed down the crapper.

Don't erroneously accuse POWW of being dishonest just because your feelings got hurt Lil'Ricky.

[Clear Direction]

I agree that the piece was a fair article regarding the issue of contamination at the Trop.

It pointed out that the city's estimate of $100.000.00 to remediate the know contamination was probably to conservative and would probably cost twice that.

It also pointed out that with the who's who of potentially toxin producing tenents which called the Gas Plant site home, that it is conceivable that additional testing may reveal additional problems.

I found it interesting that Aaron reported that additional contamination exists under a boardwalk around the Trop Dome. Mr. Mussett and Mr. Conners have said that the known contamination was confined only to the areas east of Booker Creek.

I have a question for Aaron, Does the Lease-back agreeemnt with the county require the city to notify the county of the FDEP's request to place a deed restriction on the county owned land? Was the county notified?

I beleive that everyone can agree that more time and testing will be required before a proper remediation plan can be developed.

Or we could just leave the contamination in place because according to Rick K, the pollutants will just degrade on their own. I sure wish Rick K was around in 1986, he could have saved us all 6.4 million dollars.

Clear

[Frank]

Hmmm...I am sure the people out at Azalea are no longer complacent about what contaminants are lurking underground. Wouldn't you think we might learn something from their situation about underground contamination?
I don't see me putting in an offer to buy a home that might be built on the Trop site unless or until it gets a cleaner bill of health from someone without a vested interest in developing the land.
'Course some people might buy residential property to rent. Think many people would willing rent there without that same clean bill of health?

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Rick K.

You simply labeling POWW as liars doesn't make it so. POWW simply pointed out that there were environmental issues concerned with this site that were not being taken into consideration. As to whether the FDEP deed restriction was voluntary or mandatory...say we give you that as a POWW error. Nobody is going to say POWW is 100% accurate. POWW's mission was to simply ask the proper questions. It was simply to point out that many, many items were not being considered properly and the due diligence in the rush to a waterfront stadium was pathetic..obvious to EVERYBODY BUT YOU!!!

Now as to Aaron's article. As a former journalist it is obvious to me that Aaron has been biased in his reporting ever since he began this charade with a "few beers" at a Central Avenue Bistro, with Michael Kalt according to his own reporting. Welcome to St. Petersburg Michael. It would have been nice if Aaron had provided the same courtesy to his fellow citizens on the other side of the issue. The slant in this story is his obvious LACK OF IN DEPTH REPORTING on the first go around at the Trop. He reported the 6 million plus to clean it up but absolutely gave it NO CONTEXT!!!! Aaron fails to report that city staff...Rick Mussett was a part of that staff but to be honest he wasn't in charge then...so GROSSLY underestimated the cost for cleanup they had the city let bonds for less than half the eventual cost resulting in serious budget repercussions in the early 90's.

Most recently Rick Mussett told a crowd at the Pinellas Point meeting that there were NO MONITORING WELLS at the site and it was totally remediated. Let's give Mr. Mussett the benefit of the doubt and say he simply made a mistake. His subordinate Mr. Connors claims a $100,000 projected cleanup cost when the so called expert Aaron lined up already has DOUBLED that figure. Given the enormity of the screwup the first time around with some of the same players still working for the city...given the fact that the best case scenario Aaron could produce is that Mike Connors is only off by 100%..Why would Rick K call it lies or distortion to simply question the credibility or accuracy of these assertions. Winston Churchill said.."Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it!"

It's fine to disagree with any of these positions and NOBODY with a brain denies that we're simply talking about money here...nothing is impossible to clean up...but HOW MUCH MONEY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? Could we get some more credible information before leaping?
Nobody has even looked under the Dome itself because the city violated the law (and was fined 10,000) by putting up the facility before a throrough exam.

And so Rick K. is asking questions about credibility, historic results, and logical questions your version of lies and distortion.

[Harold]

Rick
whats your interest in all this?
I have been reading these blogs for a short period and you and I have exchanged a few comments. i understand people having passion and being commited to a cause. But I gotta tell you, this seems to be a little different. Your venemous attacks and purulent diatribe go beyond that of a "FAN". After reading these comments you have made over the past few months I am suddenly confronted with the thought that you must have some financial stake in this. The importance of this issue does not merit the malicious attcks that you routinely levy against those that oppose your veiwpoint. I would like to say that it is limited against POWW or the Anti's but it isn't is it?
I am neither a POWW nor AN ANTI . I dont think the time is right to build another stadium. I think a waterfront park would be wonderful except the traffic problems would be debilitating at the Al Lang site. i am not against the Al Lang site but the time is not Now.
Yes I understand the length of time it takes to get a project going and that it wouldnt be done for several years.

What is your Stake in this Rick K?
Your comments are too vociferous and I wonder what your NOT saying in the midst of all of your acrimonious accusations.

[sween]

As has been repeatedly stated, the Trop site is not contamination free. Rather, there is STILL CONTAMINATION ON SITE. The questions remain: How much contamination? How much will remediation cost? How will the tenant, the public and surrounding residents be protected during remediation if it is started before the lease expires? And, if the public is going to remediate when is it fiscally responsible to undertake that project in light of our City's current needs? Does City council have a contract with the firefighters? the police department? a solution to the Azalea pollution? Anyone care? At what point does this failure to act become malfeasance?

[Rick K to Harold]

Harold, it is very simple, if you are truly interested in knowing where I am coming from.

I am passionate about this cause.

Initially, the stadium proposal was unveiled and it struck me as sorta cool. Then the proposals to redevelop the Trop site were released, and I fell in LOVE with the idea.

I was able to see a future version of our downtown where all the unrealized dreams for urban renewal at the Trop Site finally came to fruition, in ways far better than the misguided planners of the original Trop could imagine.

See, I always thought that the compromise decision that brought us the Trop was such a horrible compromise that was guaranteed both to be obsolete as soon as it was built and also which was guaranteed to NOT achieve the hoped for urban renewal.

Finally, after two decades, St. Pete would have the chance to correct the huge mistakes of our past.

Finally, we'd see TRUE urban renewal in the very neighborhood that used to be dominated by urban blight. A beautiful, diverse, eco-friendly combination of residences, places of employment, stores, restaurants, pubs, parks, and open spaces!

Simply stated, Harold, I, having no particular opinion about the new proposed waterfront stadium (other than a very basic notion that it matched up with what many long time area residents had said they wanted when the City originally built the dome). I fell in love with the visions for a fully redeveloped Trop Field site.

The chance to tear down the eco-disaster that is the Trop, clean up the enviro-hazards that are on the property (any and all of them), and replace all those acres and acres of ugly asphalt parking lots with new homes, offices, hotels, stores and green spaces was too beautiful to pass up.

Cities like St. Pete don't often get a chance like this, to redevelop 86 acres in the dowtown core in ways that will make the City better, add to the population, grow the job base, and grow the local economy.

My adoration of the redevelopment concept for the Trop Field property led me to this TIMES Blog, where I began to try to learn more about the "ohter" proposal. As I read the Times and Tribune articles about the stadium proposal, together with all the different supporting documents, I became increasingly impressed with the design concept and many of the pieces of the proposal.

I was able to envision a corridor of urban renewal, stretching from the redeveloped Trop Field property to the City's uniquely awesome ribbon of waterfront amenities. The two proposals, together, represented, to me, an almost unimaginable opportunity to significantly improve the City's economy, culture, and attractiveness to tourists.

My reaction to these proposals, when I first learned more about them, was that they represented a bold plan to change this City. It was, in my view, exactly the sort of thing we should all get to vote on. Confindent that events were proceeding towards a city-wide ballot question to be decided a year after the proposals were unveiled, I was excited by the opportunity to be part of an important and truly historic city-wide debate about the future of the City.

It was during my period of initial discovery of the issues associated with the Rays' stadium proposal at this Blog site (during late April and early May), that I discovered something unpleasant and hard to stomach.

In these Blogs, back then, there was this very committed, very agressive group of devoted ANTI-Stadium enthusiasts who were hell bent on trying anything and everything to deny the citizens of St. Pete a right to decide what we want our City to be.

These cyber-bullies were merciless. They outnumbered "pro" posters and would pounce in large numbers, with brutal force, to terrorize anyone who dared speak in favor of the idea of voting.

Curious about this oddity, I began to try to figure out what motivated these cyber thugs. This led me to the website of POWW, to many public statements by POWW's leadership, and to other information promogulated by the most devoted ANTI's.

What I discovered was disturbing.

POWW, for whatever reason, was not satisfied with presenting organized opposition to the paired redevelopment proposals. No.

They were committed to trying to cheat the public. All those who might look to POWW as an honest broker of truth would discover exagerations, distortions, distractions, straw man arguments, and a whole host of other deceptions.

Not content to merely point out that a relative handful of academics take the unproven position that public subsidies of sports stadia produce negative economic benefits, the POWWians tried to tell everyone that there was near UNIVERSAL agreement amongst economists against public subsidies.

The list of POWW's deceptions, distractions and distortions numbers in the hundreds. Whether it was setting up straw man arguments (see the doctored photo of the image of the proposed waterfront stadium with giant "Long John Silvers" ads), patently false claims about how many manatees and "vital" sea grasses would be murdered, or repeatedly calling the Rays ownership "carpetbaggers" and "criminals," it really disturbed me that people would seek to participate in such an important public debate and try to achieve their objectives through dishonorable means.

I thought to myself, "Rick K, it's unfortunate that many people will do as you did - they'll come to this blog seeking to find more information about the Rays proposal. If no one stands up to these cyber bullies and counters their organized campaign of deceptive propaganda, the people will be deprived of their right to make truly informed decisions."

Then I thought, as long as I have the time and the energy, I will do what I can to make sure that their deceptions are countered.

So Harold, I am not sure how much you have read and seen from the POWWians. The truth is, while I was very excited by the Trop Field redeveloment concepts and I thought the stadium would also be good for the city, the spark that ignited my passion was the concerted effort by a small band of thugs to cheat the public by hijacking a fair and honest debate.

I will soon find myself without time to post on these blogs. My hope is that some will come here with ignorance, and read back through the many weeks' worth of threads. Instead of encountering unchallenged negative propaganda, some of my posts will encourage some people not to take the many false assertions of the POWWians (and their ilk) at face value.

And that's about all I have to say about that.

Taxpayer 'incentives' to clean up contamination caused by PRIVATE companies so that other Private companies benefit.
Yes great reporting Times!

Advertising revenue!
Muck...

[Pella]

You can be sure that after all of these years, like Raytheon, the pollution below and around the Trop has traveled down stream, has sunk down into the lower strata and has vented upwards into the atmosphere. That you can be sure of. The contamination situation is worse today in many ways.

So, to say that the Trop contamination is less today or not a significant problem is like saying that a batch of "caged" rattlesnakes are not as much of a threat once let loose to roam. Of coarse they are!

[Harold to Rick K]

Rick K
okay I can accept that explanation of your passion and postings. I still think that the motives you assign to some of the individuals may be just a bit off kilter and may be asigning to much depth. I have met many people who were/are associated with POWW and they just wanted fiscal responsibilty. Some of them were teetering on going off the deep end but there will always be that when people become enfranchised with a particular cause.
Your not teetering are you?
Keep Posting keep your passion. I admire people with passion. Just stay away from the deep end of the pool so that you postings are not perceived as diatribe.
Good luck