Wall Street Journal on Rays' financial situation

The Tampa Bay Rays have slain the big-market bullies from New York, Chicago and Boston, but the team will soon face a much greater foe.

"The economy could kill us," says Stuart Sternberg, the team's principal owner and a former partner at Goldman Sachs.

For years, Mr. Sternberg's franchise was the doormat of baseball, a money-losing team that few thought would ever prove successful. But tonight, the Rays will begin the World Series at home in St. Petersburg, playing the Philadelphia Phillies.

Playing with Major League Baseball's second lowest payroll, the Rays owe much of their success to the long-term contracts given to their core of talented young players. The deals will allow the team to keep its top players for several more years, leading many to predict that the Rays could become a dominant force in the game.

But Mr. Sternberg has a problem: The Rays, he says, can barely afford their $44-million payroll with their current attendance, and that payroll is going up. Once the glamor of October baseball fades, the Rays will need to build a stable fan base in a region that has never truly embraced them -- and it must do so during an economic crisis that is worse in Florida than nearly anywhere else.

Read the rest here.

*

Comments

[Thomas]

Quotes like this underscore the logic gap:

"To me, it's the right thing to do," Mr. Bond says. "People have to see it's about the team being able to sign these players to long-term contracts."

So people should see that public funding is required so Evan Longoria can make $17.5M over the next six years.

What people see is that MLB has to get it's house in order. If teams cannot afford player salaries without needing public funding, put in a salary cap and live within your means. I think young Mr. Longoria could live on $8.5M over the next half dozen years - don't you?

[Bland]

This recession is just beginning.....Given the reduction in value of properties and savings it is difficult at best to entertain the concept of building a new stadium......Regardless of the terrific job the team has done on the field, we just may not be able as a community to afford the Rays.....If Bud Selig is going to make that a future deal killer than that is just how it will go down.....To bad.......Go Rays, Beat the Phillies...

[Matthew]

Why should we hard strapped taxpayers pay to build a stadium that will benefit a for profit group of New York investors. We, and our city, has far better things to do with our money. I love the Rays but they need to stand on their own feet - just like our parents told us to do.

[Matthew]

Why should we hard strapped taxpayers pay to build a stadium that will benefit a for profit group of New York investors. We, and our city, has far better things to do with our money. I love the Rays but they need to stand on their own feet - just like our parents told us to do.

[Matthew]

Why should we hard strapped taxpayers pay to build a stadium that will benefit a for profit group of New York investors. We, and our city, has far better things to do with our money. I love the Rays but they need to stand on their own feet - just like our parents told us to do.

[John]

Sounds like more idle suggestions (read: threats) that a new taxpayer subsidized stadium pitch (ULTIMATUM) is not far off (18 months or less). I am suprised they didn't include a link to the ABC website in the story.

Baker's mommy said no Rayhawk for my little Ricky (haha) but Clearwater's Mayor and a County Commissioner each got one? Really?

This is not the problem of citizens of St. Petersburg or Pinellas or the Bay Area in general. This is MLB's problem. If it takes another player's strike or owner lockout, they need to get their finances in line with the rest of us, and not expect taxpayers to subsidize their profit margins by building them their palaces to conduct business in.

St. Pete needs a referendum on any subsidy to directly benefit a private enterprise regardless of "claimed", "projected", or "studied" benefits returned to the community.

[Cathy Wilson]

If Mr. Sternberg really wants a definitive answer from his fan base, he ought to be encouraging Mayor Baker and City Council to let us vote on his "needs". Why is it that POWW is the only organization trying to allow the tax-payers/voters here in St. Petersburg a say in this? It's OUR money and WE should decide if we want it used to build the Rays a new home. They need to quit trying to find a back-door way to cram this down our throats and LET US VOTE!!!!

[Scaramouche]

Yeah, whatever happened to the loud claque of freeloaders demanding "Let us vote!" when they thought they might be able to Bushwa the rest of us into buying them a fabric-covered, misty-cooled, leather-upholstered waterfront place for them to go and "be seen," while us poor people, whose taxes would be footing the bill, subsidizing their playtime, "stayed home and watched TV"?

Any of you ANTI-FISCAL-RESPONSIBILITY, WE-LIVE-IN-TAMPA-ANYWAY-HAH-HAH, SCREW-YER-OLD-COTTONTOP-BLUEHAIR-NEIGHBORS-FOR-YOUR-OCCASIONAL-PLEASANT-NIGHT-AT-THE-PUBLICLY-FUNDED-BALLPARKers still got the other Blue "Let Us Vote!" Signs in yer garages, just waiting to put them out on the lawn when the carpetbaggers come 'round for their socialize-risk-privatize-gain handout?

Those are what you might call "rhetorical questions," of course.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

On HBO'S REAL SPORTS Bryant Gumbel closed the other night by pointing out that with Wall Street and Main Street down the crapper economically, how much longer before ALL of big time sports have to readjust their thinking?

The late great radio host Chris Thomas frequently pointed out that we have probably passed the "golden" age of sports...if gold means ever increasing, obscene amounts going to the owners and players. As Thomas so correctly points out in the first post, all of these folks..players...owners...employees would be incredibly wealthy by ANYBODY'S standards making just half of what they currently take in!!!!

But what amazes me about these WSJ, Baseball Weekly, ESPN stories is that they accept the MLB's BS at face value.
This team could build a stadium made of gold, in the middle of Tampa Bay with free helicopter access for EVERY fan and still not generate anywhere near the income of the so called "Major Market" teams. Stop the crap already.
The Yankees cable TV deal is worth more than ALL the potential revenue the Rays could generate from a new stadium with all parking rights...mandatory food minimums...it's just NEVER going to be equal.

But what bothers me most about these articles is could somebody explain how getting 60 million up front from MLB and then earning whatever from the stadium doesn't translate into a profit. Are we talking strictly attendance here? The Trop already has excellent suites with all of the accoutrements so it's not the old we need suites argument. Are they planning to charge that much more for seats in the new stadium...ahhhh there's the rub eh...seat licenses..etc...

Listen..free land...no property taxes represent a HUGE subsidy. That's fine the Rays are worth it...but then to ask for a half billion in tax money as well...MLB owners make the Wall Street executives look fair and honest and reasonable in comparison.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

On HBO'S REAL SPORTS Bryant Gumbel closed the other night by pointing out that with Wall Street and Main Street down the crapper economically, how much longer before ALL of big time sports have to readjust their thinking?

The late great radio host Chris Thomas frequently pointed out that we have probably passed the "golden" age of sports...if gold means ever increasing, obscene amounts going to the owners and players. As Thomas so correctly points out in the first post, all of these folks..players...owners...employees would be incredibly wealthy by ANYBODY'S standards making just half of what they currently take in!!!!

But what amazes me about these WSJ, Baseball Weekly, ESPN stories is that they accept the MLB's BS at face value.
This team could build a stadium made of gold, in the middle of Tampa Bay with free helicopter access for EVERY fan and still not generate anywhere near the income of the so called "Major Market" teams. Stop the crap already.
The Yankees cable TV deal is worth more than ALL the potential revenue the Rays could generate from a new stadium with all parking rights...mandatory food minimums...it's just NEVER going to be equal.

But what bothers me most about these articles is could somebody explain how getting 60 million up front from MLB and then earning whatever from the stadium doesn't translate into a profit. Are we talking strictly attendance here? The Trop already has excellent suites with all of the accoutrements so it's not the old we need suites argument. Are they planning to charge that much more for seats in the new stadium...ahhhh there's the rub eh...seat licenses..etc...

Listen..free land...no property taxes represent a HUGE subsidy. That's fine the Rays are worth it...but then to ask for a half billion in tax money as well...MLB owners make the Wall Street executives look fair and honest and reasonable in comparison.

[Tim]

It's simple. Fans need to show up and support the Rays. I want to see these players and this team stay in St Pete for many years to come. The excitement we've been experiencing here is amazing! Rays fever has spread through the community and there's nothing like it. Let's not take this for granted. St Pete has such as rich baseball history, let's get out and show support the Rays by attending games. This city would turn into a barren wasteland if the Rays left. Some fools in poww may want that but I sure don't. I want St Pete to grow and prosper. The revenue comes back to the city so everyone will benefit.

[ray]

Lets do some Math. $17 ticket average x 22,370 average x 81 home games = 30.8 million plus 30 mil. revenue share plus another 30 mil. from MLB = 90 mil. minus 41 Mil. = 49 Million !!!

Plus local TV, consession, ADs, endorsements, parking, licensing, etc.. Quit crying about money you are making pently

[Mike Jones]

HAHA! Planting the seeds to let you all know they will getting the h*ll out of dodge ASAP.

The San Jose Rays sounds appealing and same with San Antonio.

[Sarah]

Thomas (first poster)- are you seriously complaining about the Rays paying Longoria $17.5 million over 6 years? That is pretty much highway robbery a player of his caliber in the MLB. Most like Longoria would be make that much in less than 2 years. You are a moron.

[Joe]

My advice to Sternberg....be a better businessman. Something smells fishy here. You have one of the lowest payrolls and your team is in the World Series, yet you claim to be barely keeping your head above water. What are we missing? I don't mind getting involved financially as long as the money is wisely spent. Your actions and your comments do not inspire confidence. I often wonder if the correct decisions are being made and if those decisions are in our best interest.

[Jeff]

Simple soulution!! Get out of St. Pete and into Tampa. You would have 30,000 each night if the stadium was in Tampa. Tampa is a much larger city than St. Pete. The first few games will be sold out next year due to the carryover and then it will be right back to normal as people from tampa will not make the trek over the bridge every night. Until the organization wakes up and makes this happen attendace will be low.

[Don]

Hey Stu, how about throwing a rally for Obama so you and your execs can once again publicly show your support for someone who wants to share the wealth amongst the people. You know, like taxing you more and giving it back to us so we can buy more season ticket plans.

[Gus]

The problem for Stu and the Wall Street onwership group is if they lost large portions of their assets in the crash. These guys were at the center of it, so its not like the Cubs being owned by Mr. Wrigley who was still selling chewing gum on the side. These guys probably need to make money from the team now, because they don't have any other job. But they are making so much money now it is beyond ridiculous -- for them to cry poor when no pitcher makes more than $3M and you are in the World Series. Good Lord that takes a lot of nerve. People will come to the Trop if you put a good team on the field for any meaningful period of time.

[spence-bob]

Surely, major league baseball owners must be among the worst business people on earth. Apparently, not a single one of them is able to run his (or her) business without massive handouts from the government.

Of course, I don't believe that for a moment. The simple fact that no MLB team ever opens its books for inspection tells me everything I need to know. Losing money? Prove it - that's the very least you'll have to do if you want my money.

[spence-bob]

Jeff wrote:

"Tampa is a much larger city than St. Pete."

2007 population estimates from the Census Bureau:

Tampa: 336,000
St. Petersburg: 246,000

Larger? Yes. "Much larger?" Errrm, don't think so. They are both medium-sized cities (at best), and the counties they are in are both comparable in population:

Hillsborough County: 1,175,000
Pinellas County: 917,000

Of course, Pinellas County's population is much more densely concentrated than Hillsborough's, which means there are more potential fans in a smaller area here than on the east side of the bay.

But hey - if you guys want to spend half a billion taxpayer dollars on a new waterfront stadium, knock yourselves out.

[Andrew]

Why are we having the deabte RIGHT NOW?

CHeer for the team, worry about this later.

Nice job Stuart bringing it up. Your PR Department must not have given you the team talking points.

[Leee]

Come on, he's just following the formula:

a. make team better, build fan base and get people excited.

b. say we're still losing money despite all the new fans

c. we need a new stadium which will fix all our ills.

d. narrowly pass vote for stadium

[David Mathews]

Remember what happened after the Marlins won the World Series?

1998 wasn't so kind to the team. So we better enjoy this success right now.

Don't worry, though ... baseball wins and losses are trivial compared to the troubles that Americans will face next year.

http://www.flickr.com/dmathew1

[kris]

Am I missing something the Rays have never been a money loosing team. For years prior to Sternberg they were among the most profitable franchises in baseball.

These Goldman Sachs fools are trying to hold the city hostage. You'd think given the current economic state we're in more people would be opposed to spending 1/2 billion dollars on something that equates to nothing more than aesthetics. Instead we have idiots like Chip Carter screaming from the roof tops about "the money is there, it's a win win for this city".

All a new stadium will do is make the team appear more valuable when Sternberg tries to sell them in 5 years.

These fools only care about turning a profit. If they really cared about this community they would belly up to the table and throw some of their own coin into the project.

Let me sum up my thoughts...

Go Rays!!!!
Stop new staduim!!!!

[Tuck]

Very interesting comments above, but I must correct a few.

A) The team was going to put up $150-million for the $450-million stadium. Tax revenue would have paid for the remaining $300-million...not 1/2 a billion that was described.

B) Buccaneer attendance was ATROCIOUS until the Bucs improved. We are all lucky that we didn't lose our NFL team. It's unrealistic to think that Tampa could have supported the Rays any better than St. Pete after 10 losing seasons.

Speaking of losing a team.... we need to do eventually get a new stadium done. The Rays' economic impact is substantial, (especially now that they are in the playoffs). Thousands of people have flow in the past few weeks...stayed in our hotels...ate in our restaurants...the Rays would take a lot of money away from the area if they moved.

[Peppy]

So, an owner makes purchase of a team he can barely afford. Then when it becomes to expensive, wants the community to bail him out (i.e. new stadium). Hmmm? Interesting...This story seems very familiar. If he is such a great businessman, and has made a living being careful with his ventures, then why would he make such a risky purchase???

[kris]

Tuck: $150-million the team is putting up is spread over 10 years. The city is still putting up all of the money.

[King Gator]

King Gator Says - "Who cares, we're in the World Series! We can talk about his in November/December. Almost forgot, the Phillies Suck worse than Brett Myers' in a post game interview! <--- Tard!" How do you spell that?

[Tampa Tingler]

If you don't want'm, we'll gladly take'm (and build them a stadium).

- Tampa

[Tuck]

Kris - the stadium wasn't going to be paid for up front by the city. It was going to take years to build and it was going to be paid for over a several year span. It's a mute matter now anyways.

If some other town...Las Vegas, OK City, wherever...builds them a stadium and they move...it won't just stink for baseball fans, the financial effects will be felt city-wide from the economic trickledown.

[Mike]

"This city would turn into a barren wasteland if the Rays left."

That statement is completely absurd. Were we living in the Sahara before The Trop was constructed once upon a time? NO.

Geez; exaggerate why don't you.

[Russ]

Kiss my a--, Tampa. The Lightning can't draw more than 13,000 the other night. And they just won a championship recently. Why don't you support your team???

[The Magnetism of Robin Zander]

Hey Don, do you GOP clowns try to find ANY opportunity to slam Obama? Stay on topic here and spare us the talking points from Mayor McCheese and Caribou Barbie.

[The Magnetism of Robin Zander]

Hey Russ, in case you hadn't noticed, the Cup was 2004 and the new ownership has so far shown us their stellar sports acumen by letting Danny Boyle go (bad move) and hiring Barry Melrose to coach (even worse move). OK Hockey has, shall we say, done little but spend recklessly. If anything, Tampa hockey fans are showing that we DO know a thing or two about our sport and that the changes to the Lightning will do little if anything to make the team competitive once again.

[Thomas]

Sarah @ 2.37pm writes: "Most like Longoria would be make that much in less than 2 years. You are a moron."

You are illiterate. Nice sentence structure. "...would be make that much..." Ironically enough, you then go on to call me a "moron".

You are exactly what MLB is hoping for when they float these absurd public pays the bill; team keeps the profit stadium ideas.

One free stadium is enough. If the Rays want a new place, they can pay their own tab.

[The Magnetism of Robin Zander]

Thomas: the Rays will not be paying their own tab for a new stadium. Either some Bay Area city or county will, or [insert relocation city name here] will. Extortion? Sure. Reality? That, too. You don't like it? Fine - but it's the way of the world.

[Thomas]

That's your version of reality.

All I see are empty threats? Where are they going to go? Name one legitimate option they have to relocate.

Please include the funding source for the new stadium in your reply.

Don't just say "Las Vegas Rays" and ignore the fact that the city has rejected the idea to spend public money on an NBA arena (even after they hosted the All Star Game and their Mayor was all gung ho to get an arena and team).

Don't just say "San Antonio Rays" and ignore the fact that the Spurs were just awarded $121M to upgrade the 5 year old arena - thus draining any funds that might be available for a stadium.

Come up with one legitimate option the team even has to relocate - the Marlins didnt threaten to leave for a decade and not go because they had options.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

I hope all of you people in favor of we taxpayers picking up the tab for the filthy rich New York Aholes are voting AGAINST JOHN MCCAIN. IF you want a prime example of socialism...MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL...taxpayers subsidizing incredibly wealthy billionaire owners and multimillionaire players.

As for the idiots who continue to ignore ALL THE DATA that shows SPORTS STADIUMS..not just baseball stadiums do not pay for themselves...go online and do some research please...stop with your anecdotal observations about thousands of people coming to the stadium....there are specific economic terms that describe this phenomenon and it's simply called transferrence...if the fans weren't spending the money for the games they'd be spending it at the movies or some other form of discretionary income fun....race tracks...paint ball..bowling..it goes on and on..restaurants. Yes we have had four games where Boston tourists may have made up some of the crowd and we have the potential for four more Philadelphia games. The tourists also come for the Beach and check out the numbers on the Dali museum which actually draws FAR MORE out of towners than baseball. Do you suggest we give the Dali a half a billion? As for the poster who claimed the Rays were ponying up 150 million get your head out of your rectum!!! That was in lieu of rent. The redevelopment could have proceeded without a new waterfront stadium and we could have all the taxes and benefits!!!

PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE SIMPLY SHOOTING YOUR MOUTHS OFF!!! IF you want this kind of SOCIALISM...FINE...THEN YOU CERTAINLY CANNOT SUPPORT MCCAIN PALIN BECAUSE THIS IS THE WORST KIND OF SOCIALISM...TAKE FROM THE TAXPAYER SO LONGORIA CAN MAKE MILLIONS AND STERNBERG BILLIONS. WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND??????

[John]

Consider the following with any new stadium:

- Creative financing is the wave of the future for stadiums. PSLs, Naming Rights, Sponsorship deals on everything from parking lots to napkin holders will be the order of the day. If you can screen print a logo on it, teams will be selling rights to it.

- Only a handful (and by that I mean less than 10) of cities have the deep pocket people to afford to build a stadium. MLB knows that this is the twilight of "civic extortion." Very FEW markets can afford the startup (or relocation) costs of a baseball team. The ONLY market in America that could possibly put forth the effort to lure away the Rays and Vegas, and they told baseball to stuff it! After Vegas, who else is there? San Antonio? Not a chance - San Antonio has fewer millionaires than Tampa Bay. San Jose? Sure, that's right...Frisco/Oakland will support a THIRD team. Charlotte? With the banking meltdown, THAT money has dried up.

- There ARE two cities to be wary of as far as relocation vultures are concerned. Nashville IS baseball hungry and does have some deep pocket country music moguls. And while its a stretch, be very careful of Indianapolis. They have swiped a team before (Colts) and probably won't be afraid to do it again!

That said, I think the Rays will stay in Tampa Bay for the foreseeable future, but probably not with the same ownership.

[Newzaroo]

We'll just call it... "Nickel for Pinellas!" Is 4 cents more enough?

I like the downtown waterfront stadium idea, but Carillon and Gateway are good too.

Tampa Bay has the luxury of fielding a great team, before it is asked to pitch-in for a new ballpark.

Besides, with Obama's tax hikes you won't even notice another 4% for local baseball.

Build it and they will come. But do we want them?

[Thomas]

Indy is not feasible.

Two things you can bet what's left of your retirement on that won't happen:

1. Indy is not going to come up with another public funding package for a baseball stadium after pumping over a billion into Conseco and Lucas. That well is bone dry.

2. Irsay and the Colts aren't going to tell the Rays to come play and split revenues at Lucas because they like baseball.

.................................
I stand corrected. I would have to concede that Nashville is the one potentially viable relocation option in the entire country.

[Newzaroo]

By the way, I don't live in Pinellas. So you pay the tab until I visit, O.K.?

[Tone]

The Yankees rake in more money than anyone and yet they still have the tax payers fitting the bill(Mets too) for their new stadiums. I love the Rays but these threats from owners and sports media make me sick, not even waiting until the series is over? Rich people suck!!! I work around all of them up here in NYC and can tell you 1st hand they are all self serving assh*les. This economic crisis is all their fault for being super greedy and yet they always spin it against the poor. I can watch cheap minor league games if it comes down to it and watch players that want to play for the pure love of the game. Part of the Rays charm is that they are not over paid spoiled dickheads like the Yanks. If they lose that charm they will lose allot of their just budding fanbase.

[Cathy Wilson]

Thomas..
You could also have pointed out that the Rays (or MLB) will have to buy out of their contract here before they can pick up and move anywhere. The amount is probably peanuts to the owners and MLB but is quite a hefty chunk of change to most folks.

As dreadful as the thought of the Rays leaving may seem, there are some compensations if it does happen. We'd get the Trop back to redevelop as we choose AND have some money from the buyout to jump-start the process.

I'm not advocating that the Rays leave (in fact I'm thrilled that they're doing so well) and I hope the owners choose to stay. BUT we need to take a chill pill with the panic over them possibly leaving town. Worse things could happen...

[John]

If they're in such bad shape financially, where is the logic of putting up $150 million in advance rent for a risky new outdoor ballpark that may turn off as many "fans" as it attracts?

I hear it's POURING outside the Trop. Glad they let umbrellas inside as there would be a rain delay if the fans were sitting in a giant sailboat...

[john]

We can vote to make a stadium happen. Jobs will open up during and after the build. These jobs will bring more money into the county. I understand the "short-term" percieved loss. But, we must look towards the "long-term" gain. Remember a winning team will attract more fans, not just Rays fans, to games. The stadium doesnt have to be built by 2010 or 2011. We could conceivable have an agreement for a finished stadium by 2012 with agreed upon dates of a economic and financial re-assessment before a build begins. I believe we are living in fear or our current economic situation. We cannot live in fear but must accept what we have and build upon it for positive change. Without change comes we will be in the same cycle, change can be good and it can be bad. Understanding the crisis that our economy, and Florida, is currently in, do we want to regret not taking a chance?

[jimmyray]

When taxpayers money is used to support business they shoud open the books for our inspection.

[tom]

If the average guy pulled half the scams these well-to-do MLB owners and friends pull everybody would be in jail! Yep, 'justice'in America for all! Think wall street buyout just a different tack!

[Thomas]

Cathy Wilson,

I agree completely. I would not like to see the Rays leave. (Futher, I think they have almost no options to relocate). But if the cost of having them stay is public funding extortion, then they should go.

Obviously the Trop is not a problem. They can sell it out and field a winning team there. If MLB's business plan doesnt allow for small market teams to retain top talent, that's MLB's problem - not the taxpayers.

[A baseball fan who loves the City, too.]

Dear Matthew,

Interesting article on the Rays. I lived in St. Pete from the age of 1 until I went off to New York for college. I was there for opening day in 1998, I flew home last weekend for games 6 and 7 of the ALCS, and I went to a ton of games in between. The stadium proposal has been at the center of a heated debate in the Tampa Bay area. The Rays were asking for $300 million from the city for the new stadium, banking on the city's ability to develop the dome district. The dome itself was supposed to bring development of the area, when it was finished in 1990. 18 years later, what's there? Big promises and big ideas from people asking for taxpayer money. The city of New York, Wall St. guys trading mortgage backed securities and the federal government can leverage themselves into oblivion for ridiculously expensive deals and projects, but not every community can afford to mimic that utter lack of fiscal responsibility. The New York City, New York State, and federal budget deficits are all as absurd as they are troubling. St. Pete should not be taking its cues from how things are run in New York. I thought it intriguing that you characterized the Trop as a "dreary, domed stadium." (There was definitely nothing dreary about the Trop on Sunday night!) Your word choice reveals your support for a new stadium in St. Pete. But at least know a little something about a community before you offer your opinion on its affairs. Over the 18 years I lived in St. Pete, it rained heavily nearly every evening from the end of May through the end of August. There is nothing "occasional" about the thunderstorms, the 85% humidity, the clouds of mosquitoes, and the hurricanes in Florida during the summertime. With that said, I love Florida. Everyone that lives in Florida loves Florida, but only because of our ability to escape certain aspects of Florida to relax in climate-controlled bliss. And this is coming from a young adult. The retirement community in the bay area would be even more turned off by the idea of sitting in a stadium where at 8:00pm on a game night it is still 80 degrees, the man-sized mosquito in the seat next to you is a season ticket holder, and the humidity is through the roof or through the canvas, if you will. I am torn, because I love St. Pete and I love the Rays. All I am certain of is that $300 million (assuming the project stays within its budget and there are no supplemental requests) is a lot of taxpayer money, a lot of money that could be spent in many valuable ways around the community. There must be a better way to finance a new stadium. And it cannot happen under economic conditions as uncertain as these. Thanks for writing the article and thanks for reading my response.

Regards,
Drew Ford
St. Petersburg High School '04
Columbia University '08

[Bobby Fenton]

This isn't what the whole argument is about, but since people seem intent on missing important facts, can everyone finally grasp the idea that any new stadium no matter where or when it were to be built would not be susceptible to rain delays?

Every time I see another dolt point to the fact that it rained the other night (or like 3 total times all year long) during a game, I roll my eyes.

Argue about financing all you want... perfectly legitimate. But you guys that keep bringing up rain sound like idiots. Get an idea.

[Dr MLB]

Bobby,Bobby,Bobby, Are you trying to be MLB's answer to O'Reilly or Rush? Calling people dolts and idiots because you don't agree with them? What a statement you are making. In fact rain could make a major difference in the World Series. Since games would be pushed back not only would the day off for the players be lost but television broadcasts could be affected as well. If there were two rain delays as could have happened if last night was rained out we TV viewers possibly could not see the last game or two, not to mention the problems it would cause the ticket holders. Before one tags others as dolts and idiots maybe he should look in the mirror. Unless of course he wants to be the propagator of lunacy as witnessed by Rush and O'Reilly.

[Bobby Fenton]

Dr. MLB, you are another dolt. It is not a matter of opinion, or I wouldn't have made the point to begin with. I'm not a weatherman. I said what I said because...and I'll say it again...ANY PLANS FOR A NEW STADIUM WOULD INVOLVE A STADIUM THAT WOULD NOT BE SUSCEPTIBLE TO RAINOUTS.

In other words, it would be something like that sail thing in the first plan, or possible even an out and out retractable roof.

So no, games would not be delayed, they would not be pushed back, and no ticketholders would be affected. Not at whatever new place the Rays were to hypothetically build.

What about this can you not understand, smart guy? And you wonder why I call people like you dolts.

[Scaramouche]

Hey, Newzaroo -- did I hear you say" Besides, with Obama's tax hikes you won't even notice another 4% for local baseball."?

Hey, my man, you got any idea how the bailouts of the Bear Stearns/AIG/Fannie/Freddie/etc. are going to be funded? Nice smartass comments about "Obama's tax hikes," but if you hadn't slept through whatever civics classes you had, Congress makes the laws (at least untill Dickless Cheney and Cornpone Bush the Imperial President came along.) And that includes establishing the budget and levying taxes. Check out Article I, Sections 7 and 8. If you consider yourself a "conservative," have you paid any attention at all to a strange change in the nation's bottom line, as "conservative" un-tax and still spend even more" policies have run Libido Clinton's surplus into a trillion-dollar deficit. AND made the present angst in St. Pete over love of a winning team versus a billion public bucks for a stadium possible, since it was a smart sellout by Sternberg and his buddies from Bear Stearns BEFORE the s+++ hit the fan that let them carpetbag their way down to our lovely city by the Bay.

The "conservatives," who dominated both houses of Congress and the White House for all these years, are the ones who have spent and borrowed so hugely that our great grandchildren will still be paying off the currently $11.7 TRILLION national debt and the still to be determined costs of "bailing out" those now sunken ships that were supposed to float us all on a tide of trickle-down mojo.

All the rest of us have already been tightening our belts, to the point that we look like the old sideshow freaks like "Wasp Man." I for one can't get too worked up if Longoria and all the other boys of summer and their antitrust-exempt MLB owners have to revise their expectations downward a notch or two.

[Scaramouche]

Here we go again... "dolts" and "idiots" and Where's Rickky? Oh, Bobby, what kind of design for anew stadium do you have in mind? Maybe the rolling roof like Seattle, the billion-dollar rolling roof? That does nothing about the temperature issue? Or a fabric cover of some kind? Do we just trust that "the experts" will figure it all out when the time comes, presumably after "we" put up the land and money and long-term commitment to provide insurance and infrastructure and parking ramps and police and fire and all that?

And are you so well set in life that adding the costs that us mopes will bear for giving these scammers from Bear Stearns a nice dose of that one-way-upward socialism we are already suffering from (see "sub-prime"), is no big deal? Well, good for you. I gotta say, that would seem to make you as much of a freeloader as the smartbutt from Tampa who sneers at St. Pete's "cottontops" but expects them to buy him a "nice place to spend a summer evening" with their Social Security checks. That place that we are told is only for "rich people to be seen," while the rest of us sit home and watch it on TV?

I hope to God we, the rest of us, get a chance to vote on the proposed scam, if the owner group fails to do what their opposite numbers in San Francisco did for AT&T Stadium. That is, buy their own dam' stadium. It's not like they don't have two nickels to rub together, after all.

We are going to be paying a boatload of money for years to pay off the bailout that's ongoing on as we speak. From what I heard on C-Span of late, it looks like the Greenspan market-forces faith is driving the "smart young men" who are running the show. You have no idea of what kind of bill we are going to get from this. And you think "publicly funded MLB profits" is an idea whose time is now?

[get-smart]

Scaramouche my learned friend. The Clinton surplus is a myth. It was known then as a myth as well as today. The surplus numbers magically appeared as did Hillary's law firm billing papers in her boudoir. "Boom dere it is!" It is called 'cooking the books.' http://www.letxa.com/articles/16

I am not going to try to rebut every half idea that you presented, but I do agree with some. No bail out for Wall Street and no tax money for MLB. Bush is no conservative. I do not believe the Fed Govt should be involved in local matters such as the school system.

The middle class starts at $200,000 per year. Increasing taxes will drive big business out of the country and small business' to become even smaller. The socialist goal is to drag everyone into a welfare dependency on the govt. It is the negroization of the country.

If BO wins, the govt will be in grid lock and the Rep will be back in charge of congress in 2011. The Dem's will not be able to muster their lazy constituents a second time. A BO win is the second term of Carter.

Cheers

[Scaramouche]

Cheers, indeed.

The truth is what we choose to believe. We believe whe know who we are by reference to who and what we hate.

Go for it, Bro. "Negroization." Well.

And just curious, did you post this on the wrong thread?

And is your middle-class definition ABOVE $200K or BELOW? Doesn't the former make for a pretty small middle class?

I'm glad we agree on at least a couple of points. Do you like guns as much as I do?

[Really?]

Cooking the books like the darlings of the Republicans, those crazy kids at Enron? Or Leahman Bros? Or Goldman Sachs?

Whatcha wanna bet your boy Stu is a Republican? But isn't odd he's OK with Socialism for corporations, so long as he gets his investment-doubling-in-value taxpayer funded ballpark?

Hypocrites.

[get-smart]

The middle class is not counted by how many members. It is what they can afford and the political power they have.

The political party of the rich and many hack politicians is the party that is in power. Case in point: we had a local southside dirtbag politician/lawyer change party to be elected. And I believe his election was rigged some how.

Have a good week you middle class workers.

[Bobby Fenton]

I'll say it one last time. I wasn't addressing financing. I was addressing the people who continue to harp on the weather factor. At any new place, the weather would simply not be an issue. Period. Anyone who raises that as one of their concerns at this point has been paying absolutely no attention. I said that anyone who doesn't understand that is a dolt, and I say it again.

I did not call anyone who objects to how it may be financed any names. That was never my point. I'm all for letting people vote too, but get the information right.

[Trop Fan]

Nah, the weather isn't an issue in baseball. Just look at last night, for example, when the commentators were even lamenting the game wasn't inside our comfortable Trop as the game was being suspended.

Moron

[Bobby Fenton]

Hey Trop Fan, you're the moron. Maybe you didn't read any of the above posts. Weather wouldn't be an issue at the new stadium because it would either have that sail deal or even be a flat-out retractable roof. THAT's why.

Let's count now, I think I've had to clarify this at least four times. It's no wonder all of you people are always howling about one thing or another. Most of you have no idea what you're talking about.

And if your name is "Trop Fan", I think I know all I need to know about you.

[Trop Fan]

Bobby,

How do YOU know it'll have a "sail" or a retractable roof? Are you a member of the ABC coalition joke and know something the rest of the population of Tampa Bay doesn't know about the future stadium design????

The giant sailboat idea is dead. I repeat, the sailboat is dead. Do you hear me Bobby, it's not going to have a sail and it's not going to be on St. Pete's downtown waterfront. A sail covering is the most ridiculous idea to date anyways. Sails don't protect from humidity, insects, heat, lightning, sideways driven rain and wind. Nor would it protect neighboring condos from noise. Got it?

And no, they're not moving to Tampa either. I suggest you do the same as Stu...enjoy the World Series and forget about a new stadium for at least another 7-10 years.

Unless, of course, you can build it with your own money.

Oh, and I just filled out both POWW petitions for the charter amendments regarding a referendum for city expenitures for pro sports and waterfront protection. I even printed out 100 of each and am handing them out to everyone in my ST. PETERSBURG neighborhood.