Al Lang Field no longer in the running; what it means

The Rays' Michael Kalt said today what most people in St. Petersburg thought: A new ballpark at Al Lang Field isn't happening.

Kalt was open and frank during a 20-minute discussion. He said the team thought they could make a downtown St. Petersburg stadium work if it was done right (i.e. not like the Trop). But now Kalt and the Rays brass are starting to think a new ballpark can't even do it alone.

He said that means rebuilding on the current Tropicana Field site might not be the great option many others do.

The team's focus most certainly will now turn to the Gateway area in St. Petersburg, which many county leaders prefer but many city leaders are hesitant to support.

-- Aaron Sharockman, Times Staff Writer

Comments

[Tom]

I understand why the waterfront was chosen, its just too bad no one thought of it 25 years ago....or even 3 years ago when we voted on what to do with Albert Whitted-that could have been ideal. Either way, we still have to have a roof. No one who wants open air has ever sat outside on an August night with T-storms blowing around or for a Sunday afternoon game at 96 degrees

[carson p]

hey maybe POWW was on to something.I guest the red signs spoke loudly.Build it at the trop.We own the land already.

[Jimbo]

What needs to happen is Al Lang should be rehabbed, turned 180°, and modernized with a retro feel - to scale, of course, lest the Bayfront Tower yell again - to attract a team back from Spring Training in Arizona. That would bring new life in the spring, a new minor league team in St. Pete, keep baseball on the water (as it has been for 90+ years), and prevent another staid park - or worse, a condo - from appearing there.

Then, build the new "hybrid" park at the Trop, kind of a cross between the SkyDome and the Arizona Cardinals stadium: retractable roof with outfield walls that can be opened or closed, depending on the weather.

[Dave]

Jimbo - as much as I enjoyed ST at Al Lang, we won't see it again. Teams today want several practice fields near the ST stadium. What elitist building "protecting" the waterfront (choose from Dali, Mahaffey, or Albert Whitted) will you replace?

Futhermore, Al Lang opened around mid-century. While there is indeed a 90-year tradition of ST in St. Pete, it took place at many locations.

[Jimbo]

You wouldn't need to replace any of them; the parking lot at Al Lang has plenty of room to have it make a spin around. It'll give any team that plays there a clear shot of downtown from the grandstands then, and with all the amenities downtown has to offer, it can draw a team back. The Cubs are wanting to move to Sarasota, along with the Orioles, and I don't know of any other place but Ed Smith that they both could play/practice - teams generally don't share practice facilities, too, just stadiums.

Baseball has been at the Al Lang site since the '20s, then known as "Waterfront Stadium". The name change and the current grandstands were built in the '40s, which is what you were probably thinking of. But you're right, ST games were played elsewhere, like Crescent Lake (now Casey Stengel Park) and Snell Isle where the Vinoy CC is.

[Dave]

Jombo - that type of optimistic, out-of-the box thinking has no place in this debate! Thanks for the history lesson.

[Steve]

Thanks to the old cranks in poww for destroying our city. If they want to live in a quiet place, why are they downtown blocking growth and prosperity for future generations.

The waterfront was idea. What a great way to promote national attention to St Pete and the Rays. It was a win-win situation for the city and team.

The next best place is next to the Trop. It will be another opportunity to develop around the stadium site and showcase St Pete. It would be boring to have a stadium in an empty cultureless are like Toytown.

I hope the Rays stay in downtown St Pete. The city needs the Rays and should do everything they can to work with them on a new stadium.

[get-smart]

Steve, you remind me of the 60 year old hippie. The debate has moved on. Grow up.

[Scaramouche]

The part I like about "the debate" is how "magical thinking" has played such a large part. "If we just build it with a half a billion or billion or so of public money, they (whoever "they" are, those misty watercolored tourists and Yuppies and the MLB Great White Sharks) will come." Welcome to the triumph of the few at the expense of the many.

The Rays boys can afford to build their OWN stadium, like good capitalists should have been doing all along and like they did in San Francisco and St. Louis. Assuming that half a billion or a billion in taxes to pay the interest (high, given our local credit worthiness) and principal on bonds, and millions for "our share" of "good faith" money, is a STARTING POINT for what "we" have to "put on the table" in front of the Lords of Baseball is just plain dumb, a real sucker move. Especially when it is so apparent that the Rays players can do just fine in the Trop. And when it's still the case that MLB franchise owners (see: New York, times 2)take stupid or venal City Fathers to the cleaners, getting them to encumber their communities just so the owners get a potential risk-free, no-cost bump in their bottom lines and in the "value" of the team. A bump in which the community has no share, other than the "infinite psychic value" of hosting an MLB franchise. "Hosting" is exactly right -- just like a tapeworm or other parasite that is "hosted" by the wasting body.

And spare me the "national pastime" stuff -- one of the Rays promoters, in an apparent moment of candor, said it best: "The rich people will go to the games (in the new stadium) to be seen. The poor can stay home and watch TV."

So. Maybe "we" have gotten past the "debate" over converting Al Lang to private profit and socialized risk and cost, though some downtown business people still think that's where their bread is buttered and hope to also get rich from the magic of "the stadium on the water." How did that translate to the apparent assumptions that one, a "new stadium" is needed ANYWHERE, and two, that "the community has a duty to do whatever it takes to 'make it happen'"?

Do any of our great elected leaders even have any awareness of the area's economy and the public budget shortfalls and reductions in human services, or are they dazzled once again by the pretty bangles and beads in that string of $24 worth of junk jewelry the Rays Boys are dangling in front of them? Or, like most drawn to politics, do they have visions of campaign contributions and higher office yet to come, and the "prestige" of having squired a "big project" past the angry or unconscious public?

About the only sensible if probably inadvertent comment by any of the mayoral candidates, all of whom are so busy triangulating and avoiding commitment and controversy as they run for the roses, was this by Wagman:

"I have learned that jumping to conclusions, especially on large scale issues and projects, usually ends up with a bad result." It still does not appear that the city or county governments have done any real due diligence, if the leaders hope to be anything other than roll-over "partners" with these carpetbaggers.

But hey, maybe the long silence on these issues means that the usual Florida deal, where the developers win big and the public and culture get screwed, has already been done?

[Ken]

Scaramouche: did you forget to take you medication again?

[Bobby Fenton]

I don't understand all the fuss about this story. Did anyone still think that the Al Lang site was still an option? I guess maybe it's "official" now, but I thought we had pretty much already moved on to other possibilities.

[Jimbo]

I'm not retyping my response to you, Scaramouche. Go check it out on the other blog post: http://blogs.tampabay.com/ballpark/2009/05/with-st-petes-waterfront-out-where-should-the-rays-look-next-for-a-stadium.html

[Scaramouche]

Oh Ken, I am pierced, simply PIERCED to the core, and chastened, by your clever repartee.

Fact remains, this whole deal is just another upward wealth transfer, built on the great "capitalist" model of socialized costs and privatized profits.

And Bobby, glad that you folks over in Tampa have "moved on to other possibilities." I don't know who your all-inclusive "we" is supposed to embrace, but there is still a semblance of democracy and fiscal responsibility in some quarters, and I doubt there's a majority of the Pinellas-St. Pete population about to saddle the community with a playground for the few in place of the place we are still paying for. Especially when the carpetbaggers are fully capable of building their own dam' stadium, out of cash or some derivative-based, "securitized" and "monetized" deal they could cook up with other business interests who think naming rights and skyboxes and special parking and secret handshakes are their due.

I know the kleptocracy and freeloading are presently a little subdued, but at some point there's going to be a vote by those who actually have a stake in the matter. Not Tampans like yourself, unless you have the mojo to get your fellow East Side Of The Bay residents to pony up and pay to move the venue over there.

Words that get tossed around here without definition: "it," as in "make 'it' work," and "success." Everybody loves "success," but all I can see it really means is "taxpayers' money and the chicks for free." And "it" is the free-floating miasma of wishful magical thinking that the Donald Trumps and Michael Kalts and Sternbergs of this world poof around, to cloud the councils of our representatives and ensnare the ever-hopeful "business community" in stripping more vitality out of the average community in favor of the privileged few. Maybe some of you freeloaders would like to offer your own clarifying definitions.

People are voting with their dollars right now, look at the attendance numbers here and across the country. In flush times the culture feels like it can absorb a certain amount of theft and fraud and these kinds of wealth transfers. Not presently, looking up the loaded barrels of a $9 trillion national, state and local debt. We the people do not "owe" allegiance to the anti-trust exempt scammers of Bud Selig's franchisee corps. Or any more publicly funded "new stadiums," which neither improve the baseball performance nor add anything of substance to their communities. We don't need a Yankee or Shea Stadium do-over here, not on the public's nickel and backs.

[Clear Direction]

Correct me if I am wrong, wasn't the St. Petersburg Chamber of Commerce just about to announce that their Baseball Blue Ribbon Task Force had concluded that the Rays proposed Waterfront Stadium was a great idea, and the Rays pull the project just minutes before the Task Force was going to go public with it's findings at Val-Pak in June of last year?

Do you think we will now hear that the Chamber of Commerce had also "probably miscalculated"?

[get-smart]

Clear Direction -

The Chamber of Commerce with their six month probe was inconclusive what sharpest minds wanting to know. They stalled and stalled and hummad and hummad, their final result was: 'It could be if it should but it can't so it won't.'

I hope that clarifies things.

Cheers -

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Could the baseball fan(atics)at least come up with some facts and not their emotional opinions regarding this issue?

Could someone explain why the Ray's NEW YORK ownership put our community through the most divisive campaign in recent memory? Why they forced our city government and private citizens to spend tens if not more than a hundred thousand dollars for NO good reason? Within in month of pulling their proposal, officials with the Rays and MLB began speculating on whether the TAMPA (not St. Pete, Clearwater or the city of Tampa) AREA
could support a major league franchise.
And now we read.."But now Kalt and the Rays brass are starting to think a new ballpark can't even do it alone."
NOW the Rays come to this realization?
Are we to believe they did NO DUE DILIGENCE BEFORE putting our community through this EXPENSIVE and divisive debate? I don't have the figures but I am certainly aware that POWW and the opposing group Friends of the Waterfront Stadium raised tens of thousands of dollars. Both sides had volunteers who spent thousands of man hours on this debate. Perhaps Aaron could get off his butt and use the Freedom of Information laws to find out HOW MUCH the city spent on this ill fated ill conceived idea. Was it over a hundred thousand dollars in staff time...remember the three large hearings at city hall...the bogus "brain storming session" at the Trop replete with cookies and virtually every city staffer of rank..including the recently laid off city arts director. PLEASE AARON tell us how much this idea cost the public.

The fact that the Rays tried to ram this down our throats without the required due diligence is now FACTUALLY OBVIOUS by the Rays own statements. Do even the most emotional of you baseball fan(atics) like Steve really believe they didn't do this for the proverbial pump and dump. Get their new iconic stadium and flip their investment for a quick half billion in profit. Did you folks like Steve just fall off the turnip truck or what?

As for the putdowns of St. Pete by Steve and the other losers...perhaps you don't enjoy the Saturday morning market...maybe you do not appreciate the open air restaurants that now populate Beach Drive, or the many events that populate our current beautiful waterfront park system, or the annual auto race which brings us international exposure. Listen whine all you wish about how you MUST have your baseball, but don't confuse your opinions with facts about how much baseball would impact our community economically. And please spare me the BS about what great stewards of baseball the current ownership group have been...they had one year of success...I'm happy for that success..but could we keep some perspective please...they have consistently maintained one of the lowest payrolls in MLB...they have finished above .500 ONCE!!!! They are under .500 as I write this...I wish I had spent my life working for folks like Steve and the other baseball fan(atics) who would have been happy to cheer me on even though I performed BELOW AVERAGE my entire career with the exception of ONE YEAR!!!

[kim]

When they play as badly as they did against Cleveland, why should we build them anything?

[get-smart]

atruly - you forgot to mention the abandonment of our 90 year spring training history to advance their greedy scheme. The one year they played great was the last year of Al Lang spring training. Rumor has it, there may be an Al Lang curse!

[Scaramouche]

Kim, please don't even start down the path of implying that "we" would "owe" the players (actually, the carpetbagging franchise owners, who don't even LIVE in this community) a "new stadium" if only they would produce pennants, or just above-.500 records. In moments of candor, players have said the Trop is a great place to play, especially in our climate, as they proved last year.

The Yankees are THE epitome of MLB franchises, history, long-running Steinbrenner-Selig scams and all -- and the strapped taxpayers and citizens of the City of Noo Yawk can neither afford to go to the Great Game of Baseball, nor pay off the Screw-Job Stadiums that going around the democratic process has saddled them with.

This is not a negotiation, "if you play real good, we'll give your owners their new stadium and a half a billion or billion in instant free equity." It's an issue of civic governance, which has been missing in action in this town for decades. "If we build it, we will thrive" is pretty much proven BS -- cities thrive on ORGANIC growth, like what concernedcitizen highlights, not choke-the-public "big projects" that may show "fad appeal," but when the bubble pops are left as empty toothless storefronts.

There's no magic black box with a giant funnel marked "Dump Public Money In Here" and a big handle marked "Churn Development For Growth" that our Chambers of Commerce and city leaders can wildly crank in the hope that something of healthy, sustainable value will trickle out the little spigot at the other end. And the whole stadium scam is that truth, writ very large.

[don]

Trulyconcerned hit the proverbial nail on the head!

[Rudy]

I have come to the conclusion that the Rays knew EXACTLY what they were doing when they proposed a stadium that was fraught with controversy. They were using the news as free advertising. They got more free coverage supporting the team from the blogs, newspapers and television reporting on the proposed waterfront stadium, and general talk around town (it does not matter what you say about me, just spell my name correctly) than anything they could have paid for.

The team did not have to do any due diligence. All they needed to do was get the Rays into the public's eye, something they had not been capable of with their win/loss record prior to last year.

Good work, guys. And you wonder why some people don't want to spend another cent of public funds on professional sports? Maybe if you hadn't been so greedy, people wouldn't care about a few more dollars down the line.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Great thoughts Rudy and I'm sure the pub was icing on their cake. But I believe Sternberg is a very shrewd man and I mean that as a compliment. He is what he is..an investor...not a baseball fan...that is neither good nor bad; it is simple fact. He did his due diligence and came up with a genius plan. If he got his half billion dollar "iconic" stadium he was well aware the franchise would fail in a miserable location..but he could sell the fantasy to the next investor itching to get into baseball. More importantly..if he failed..as he probably knew he would..he now has his excuse to use Bobby Fenton and the other baseball fan(atic)s to point out that he did his best and who can blame him for moving the team.

I have no beef with Sternberg who did what investors do...try and make as much money as possible...however our elected officials should apologize to the entire community for their TERRIBLE performance in this fiasco. But then there is another election coming up this fall...please remember which of those candidates took which positions!

[Ken]

atrulyconcernedcitizen -

How can you say Sternberg is not a baseball fan? He is a baseball fanatic. There are thousands of investments better than buying the most pathetic baseball franchise in MLB (as the drays certainly were). Also, who the heck would tie up their own money in a deal they knew would make the franchise fail? You clearly have no understanding of business, economics, or baseball.

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

Ken,

I'm afraid you are the one who knows nothing about business. The Rays increased their cash flow by over 22% the very first year Sternberg had the team..and that in yet another year where the team failed to break .500. In other words the product sucked and he still increased revenue by an amount most businessmen only dream of...that of course does not even take into consideration the equity gain he has scored. The team has virtually doubled in value in just four years of ownership. And so Ken I ask YOU what about these numbers do you not understand. If you read Thomas, Scarmouche or the others who have done the research you would realize that had Sternberg pulled off his coup with the iconic waterfront stadium historical data shows he would have made between a quarter and a half billion dollars in equity increase alone. If he is such a baseball fan(atic) why cant' he attend more than a few games a year. Malcolm Glazer doesn't attend Buc games either but then he has never passed himself off as a football fan..simply a shrewd businessman who managed to score the most famous sports franchise in the World in Manchester United.

And Ken it's not about the franchise..it's about Sternberg's investment...check out what Levi Jacobs scored when he hornswoggled Baltimore into building him a new stadium...or how about our illustrious past President George Bush who scored bigtime when he and his compatriots got a new stadium in Texas. He referred to it as the BEST INVESTMENT he had ever made. I guess so...when as Scarmouche points out you can get the taxpayer to underwrite ALL THE RISK and you get to SKIM ALL THE PROFIT. Given that you've done NO RESEARCH on the issue Ken here is a summary of an excellent piece of research on the subject. The conclusion is that the fans or taxpayers should own the franchises like they do in Green Bay. The current system is simply a massive ripoff of taxpayers backed by BS studies from Chambers of Commerce and refuted repeatedly by INDEPENDENT academic economic studies. Read this and then tell me what YOU don't understand.

http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/9474/No_85_Sports_Stadium_Madness_Why_It_Started_How_to_Stop_It_summmary.html
The point is not that Sternberg wanted the franchise to fail..it's simply that he didn't really care..if he got his new iconic waterfront stadium in a horrible location he would have simply flipped the franchise for a quick quarter to a a half billion dollars profit...Ken those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it!!!
Ken it is YOU who clearly have no understanding of business, baseball, or shrewd New York businessmen. If you believe Sternberg bought this franchise because of his love of baseball then I have some stock to sell you in the Gandy bridge. And Ken I promise to sell it to you at a bargain price. Back up your BS with some numbers please!!!!

[Scaramouche]

Hey, Ken, as to Sternberg as a baseball fanatic as opposed to a profit-making fanatic, do you know the man personally? Have you seen him march through a succession of days over the years from when he was still pumping gas into the Great Bubble Economy up there in the Financial District, his natural habitat, on down to the negotiations to purchase the, what did you call it, "drays" franchise, (which as we all know is a profit-making business, which only in a small way involves any "sport"), and the discussions among the varoius members of the ownership group about what to do with the payout from very timely selling their financial business to Bear Stearns? Have you heard him weeping in the night over the fate of "his team," or more importanly "this community?" Do I hear the sound of cowbells?

My bet is that you have no more than the rest of us -- the external evidence reported in the various media, talk among our fellow-citizens, and of course observation of the behaviors of our native species, "Citileaderi impervious" and "Boosteria toxicalis." I'm sure you will correct my misapprehension, if that is what it is.

And other than the cost of a Michael Kalt, a few PowerPponts, some "feasibility studies" which now must look even to Rick like bad science, and the hours of Mr. Strongarm, what money of their own (other than the initial purchase portion they did not "securitize" and "monetize" and the "150 million" in prepaid rent NOT "capital"), what money of their own were they tying up in a "deal they knew would make the franchise fail?"

I guess Fridays are a little opaque -- are you talking about trying to shoehorn the Great Sail into downtown waterfront Al Lang St. Pete? or the things they have been so busily doing to try to extract a half a billion or a billion in taxpayer money to put up the new stadium that according to the Bud Selig Script is the "flip" icon in the upward-financial-mobility scam that is Major League Baseball? The way things used to work, even "pathetic" teams, once they had a "new stadium" added to their assets, suddenly became much more valuable and marketable, and not because of any magical improvement in the "sport" being done down on the dirt diamond.

If these guys were smart enough to get out of the financial/derivatives business model and into what used, pre-2008, to look like a nice safe way to make a buck, good-oh on them. But we the taxpayers will be attempting to fill the sinkhole resulting from the collapse of the Funny Money bubble with Real Wealth for maybe until my grandchildren are regretting that there's no more "Social Security," and the "financialists" are buying replacement organs to further prolong their "worthy" lives, from their balconies overlooking their private preserves in their walled enclaves.