Baseball chat at noon Friday

There's been a whole lot of baseball business news in the past few days. Rays president Matt Silverman publicly questioned the viability of the Tampa Bay baseball market. And now a group studying locations for a potential new stadium, are eyeing three different sites in Hillsborough County. Let's get into it starting at noon Friday. - Aaron Sharockman, Times Staff Writer

Comments

[Scaramouche]

One has to wonder, given the overall stats on attendance at MLB games, whether, under the grasping "business model" of present-day MLB, Inc., "big league" baseball is "viable" without huge infusions of tax money in ANY of the various markets. Is there a "law of business" that says part of the "good will" sold with an MLB franchise is the "right" to extort or scam a new stadium from the taxpayers of the area? Come on, people!

It's one thing to slip a few million in secret tax subsidies to Jabil Circuits and similar businesses, which employ and spend pretty big-league right here in this area. It's another thing altogether to peddle the notion that our leaders, without a referendum on the subject, can slip half a billion or a billion of our present and future wealth into the pockets of the "loyal owners" who live in New York and keep sniping at our area and whining about not making enough money, in the face of pretty good evidence that they are doing very well indeed.

But hey, that's politics, St. Pete style, right?

And as I've said before, I do like baseball. I just happen to be one of the relative "poor," given the cost of a "pleasant evening at the park," that the owners say can "stay home and watch TV," while at that shiny new stadium, "the rich will go to the new stadium to be seen."

And I would not like to be further impoverished by having even more of my little all taken by the power of government and given to a private, for-profit business whose owners just don't care to do what capitalists are supposed to do: Risk their OWN money, of which they have plenty, on the bet they made buying the Tampa Bay Devil Rays in the first place. The Giants' and Cards' owners figured out how to do it almost entirely on their own. Why do we have to prove we are as "big" as New York and Milwaukee (where they hardly fill the new stadiums either) and such by being as much a bunch of ralphed-over, unwilling suckers as those cities' residents are?

[Reality calling]

Wealthy or not, MLB owners don't provide us with baseball out of the goodness of their hearts. If you want a team in your neighborhood, you're going to pay for one, whether by buying tickets, paying taxes or all of the above. Don't want to pay? There are plenty of other cities that will, and gladly.

You get the city you pay for -- pay for nothing, and you'll live in a city that offers nothing.

[Mark]

Matt wake up!!! Attendence in MLB is down but the Rays attendance is up what more could you want?? The Rays attendance has improved over the last few years but you don't give the fans credit for that.

[Scaramouche]

Hey, Reality -- do you pay taxes in St. Pete or Pinellas? Do you have any idea what's in the City budget? Have you walked around this city, or taken advantage of any of the stuff we HAVE paid for? Or are you one of these New People from, maybe, New Tampa, who wants the million of us over here to buy him a nice place to spend an evening outdoors, a max of 81 times a year? Who call the residents here "cotton tops" and call down on the Green Benches that don't exist any more?

You got it right that MLB owners do not provide their entertainment product out of the goodness of their hearts. Neither does Brighthouse or Time Warner or CBS or Sony. But as a general rule, they don't use the political back door to get the rest of us to pay taxes to buy the infrastructure and talent they sell to us.

Do you live in Pinellas? Have you sent in your earmarked check for your share of the public cost of another taxpayer-bought, franchise-owned stadium to either the City Treasurer or the Rays offices? Something between $5 and $10 thou for each person in your household would about do it.

And I don't see cities lining up to lay out a billion to move the Rays franchise, though I don't doubt that our "loyal team" or at least the owners have been scouting out possible new locations.

People do "vote" with their dollars, which are increasingly scarce, and though the Rays franchise draws more this year than last, absolutely and by comparison with the rest of the antitrust-exempt Big League. Looks like the voting highlights an "industry" that is headed in the direction of GM -- It ain't all that good for the United States, and it's gonna have to recognize some economic realities including the issue of pay for labor and management, the kind of product, and the inability of "product demand" to support those billion-dollar new taxpayer-funded stadiums and the ridiculous prices of admission and in-park food and entertainment the franchise owners think they can grab.

I know you have a different notion, but to a whole lot of people, Major League Baseball, Inc. does not seem to be a community asset on par with decent schools and a functioning police force and fire department and roads and sewers and even parks.

[ARO]

I am so sick of this whining. Attendance at Rays games is up close to 25% while attendance accross the rest of the board in BB is declining! We are supporting the team. Most of us have no problem with the stadium. Just because some people are too spoiled to drive across a bridge (in the opposite direction to rush hour traffic!) doesn't mean the Rays and the Trop don't have a fan base! Either renovate the Trop or tear it down and rebuild it right where it is, but shut up with the threats to move the team to Tampa. No one is stupid enough to believe that if you DO move you'll only move across the bay. We know if you move you'll move out of the state. So shut up you lazy, spoiled brats in Hillsborough!

[Rick]

Aaron, as always, a sincere thanks to you and the Times for providing outstanding coverage on all these issues related to the future of the Rays in the region. I know you are a journalist (and a pretty good one, as far as I can tell you), but if you had to guess, where do you think this will all end up?

Part of me suspects the downtown St Pete location will come back as the ultimate compromise - realizing that location would require a new mayor with political courage and vision. But another part of me suspects that Feather Sound is the likely answer - though all that does is move the stadium closer to population center of the region and it does little to create that exciting urban environment we see at modern ball parks in other cities.

Also, since I won't be able to watch the chat live, I am wondering what you think of the public's acceptance of the work of Lyash, once he leaves the area and commutes back and forth.

Thanks again Aaron.

[9equals8.com]

The benefit of having a MLB team in town is substantial even though it is very difficult to measure (hence you will find studies that say it's $300 million+ and others that say it's $0). In addition to the travelers it helps bring to our area, the tax revenue, etc., there is the intangible benefit of being a Major League city (as well as an NFL and NHL city). Yes, we may need to provide tax breaks and other incentives to keep the team here, but that's the cost of admission. What is the value of being on national TV on a regular basis and showing the rest of the country what a nice area this is to livein , work in and visit? This is but one example of many intangible benefits that often go unnoticed. I'm hopeful that the community will see the benefits of having a team hear and will do what it takes to keep this team.

[Norm Roche]

Good Day Folks,

I think this could be a great opportunity to address several outstanding issues and absolutely skyrocket St. Pete and Pinellas’ economy. Here me out, or read me out as it were. It’s a concept I’ve been working on for a while now. I dropped a little bit of it – it its developmental stage – on Pinellas County’s Director of Economic Development a while back.

We could turn Pinellas into a cruise line port, resulting in a real and sustainable economic boost to the entire county.

Convert the Pier into a cruise ship receiving dock capable of receiving at least two ships. With the right plan and investors, this could revitalize Bay Walk, increase tourism to the beaches, bring jobs for thousands, and hence justify a functional mass-transit system as well.

As for the Trop: I took in a game with two leading foundation and bituminous engineers for the express purpose of investigating my concept – one of which was actually involved with the subsurface foundation study of the Trop when it was built. We don’t need to build a new Trop or install a retractable roof, etc… We simply need to “Rays” the roof (pi). With the proper construction of hydraulic-lift shaft mechanisms, we could literally raise the roof at any time we choose. We figured about 10-to-15 feet would do it. Given the shape of the hard-structure roof line, the breeze would flow through the Trop, the evening air, the sun sets, etc… and create the outdoor environment while maintaining the weather-protected option.

Imagine the 7th inning stretch; the Rays are winning or on a comeback move; the sound system begins to pump out a loud and bass amplified Black Sabbath lead-in… and the roof begins to “Ray’s”. The fans would go wild! People would fill the Trop just for the experience. It would be an ESPN highlight every night, and an MLB event shown around the world.

Then, we build a multi-level parking garage to the west of the Trop – across 16th I believe, and build a walkway over 16th that goes right by (and to) the open Trop and leads down into the existing parking lot – that has been redeveloped into an open-air town center/straw market/multi-use complex.

Trolley’s and busses running throughout St. Pete and Pinellas respectively; cruise ship passengers taking in a Ray’s game as part of a tour package; commerce, jobs, economic growth, worldwide publicity…

Call me crazy, but I’m telling ya… it’s all doable!

My best to you and yours,

[PE]

Gotta say, there are more good comments here than normal. Scaramouche, points well taken. Reality - St. Pete has a vibrant downtown and waterfront, along with great museums, decent shopping, good nightlife and improving dining. Those will exist whether the Rays do or not.

ARO - good point about the Rays moving - WAY TOO RISKY for the Rays to just cross the Bay and hope for a magic attendance boost. (See Lightning attendance falling like rock).

Unfortunately, I work (in Tampa) with a lot of uneducated, who think they will be mugged going to a game, that crackheads are everywhere around the Trop, that traffic is a nightmare....I could go on. They think that by complaining (and not going to Rays games) that they are going to get a stadium built around the corner from them. How wrong they are. If the Rays move they are leaving the Bay Area.

[Reality calling]

Hey Scaramouche: FWIW, I live about 20 min. from Tropicana Field. And yeah, I'm aware of what my taxes pay for.

I'm also aware that I lost a public library branch my kids used to love so the politicans could beat their chests about saving me $200 a year on my property taxes. I've seen cutbacks at public pools and parks, and I hear law enforcement and fire rescue talk about how they're going to cut back because ignorant jerks keep screaming for tax cuts.

Would I rather have those amenities than the $200 a year? You bet. Would I be willing to pay my share to have the Rays play close enough that I could run down to a game after dinner at home? You bet.

BTW, if you think someone's going to come to your door asking for your check for $10,000 for a Rays stadium downtown ... well, do you still have the cancelled check you wrote to build the Trop, when there was no team or moneybag owners in town to help foot the bill? I'd love to see it.