Orlando group rides targeted by police

Just like every other group ride in history, the ones in Winter Park are becoming a nuisance to local motorists. They complain about riders hogging the road and blowing through stop signs, just like every group ride does. So the police went out and followed these rides and their video ended up on the local news.

Two things worth pointing out about this story:

1. At one point there is footage of a line of cars being backed up behind the police vehicle. Now, even if it is an unmarked car, very few motorists are going to pass another vehicle AND the group ride, so I don't see this as an accurate demonstration of what motorists deal with.
2. Here I quote: "According to deputies, the cameras revealed large groups of bike riders -- mostly on weekends -- illegally disrupting traffic." I'm not saying weekend warriors are bad cyclists, but there are reasons many dedicated riders I know shy away from the popular weekend rides. The groups are too big and unruly.

So as the popularity of the sport increases and there are more and more riders on the road, the issue will only get worse. But bike lanes are not the answer, each bike stopping individually at a stop sign is not the answer and riding single file is not the answer. There are no easy answers.

[via Dave Moulton]

Comments

[Bill Cotney]

True that. There are no easy answers. BUT ... here's what the cops, the mad motorists, and all of them don't get.

A. Cyclists don't "disrupt traffic", cyclists ARE traffic. By law. Get over it.

B. As in the picture shown above, it makes no difference if there was 1 cyclist or 100. Legally, that lane is now unusable by anyone else.

The new 3 foot law requires that you pass a cyclist by giving at least 3 feet of clearance to the nearest part of the rider/bike. So even if I was riding by myself, as far to the right as is practical and safe, if you wanted to pass me legally you couldn't do it here. Your left wheels would cross the double yellow lines.

A group of riders should be treated just like any other slow-moving vehicle legally on the road...like a farm tractor, etc. You wait until you can pass safely and legally.

P.S. Hiya, Chip!

[Chip Haynes]

Hi, Bill! (How did you know I couldn't resist this one?)

This is a tough one, and those Orlando riders are not alone, as we all know. I no longer ride with any big crowd of cyclists, but I can understand the problem(s) from just about every point of view. With no easy, obvious solution, I will say this: Please, all of you, be careful when you ride. I do see a strong anti-bicycle undercurrent out there, just waiting for an excuse. Don't give them one!

I'm not saying weekend warriors are bad cyclists, but there are reasons many dedicated riders I know shy away from the popular weekend rides. The groups are too big and unruly.

Bingo. Large groups are unnecessary unless it is a planned event such as a MS150 or Hilly Hundred type ride with police supoort. Large peletons are a large problem in Pinellas county.
The group mentality is embarrassing.

[Chip Haynes]

I got to thinking about this one on my (solo) bike ride home from work last night. There are many ways that group riders justify their road manners, but maybe we should look at it like this: If a group of car drivers did the same thing on a regular basis (traveled well below the posted speed limit in a pack and blew through stop signs and red lights to stay together), how would that go over with the general public or the local police, do you suppose?

[Red light runna]

I think you should ask the Fat Guy on the Yellow Colnago what his opinion would be. Often we jump to conclusions about the group rides. Well, maybe he has a valid reason. We just can't assume things. Maybe something is going on that we just don't know about. Maybe he is trying to get away from somebody and that is why he is going through the lights. Maybe it is the dropped riders like YOU that complain about the group rides. Grow some and try to hang on the rides...though we all know you can't!

[Mel Lucas]

Unfortunately, regardless of your opinions, there ARE large groups riding in and around the St. Petersburg area every morning and evening. And this trend WILL NOT change. That is why there needs to be solutions and not just intangible postings from out of touch riders here on this blog. What I mean by out of touch is that a couple of you have said more than once that you don't do large group rides, etc. Well, I do and so do many, many other riders out there.

Robbing your local conveniece store is not necessary either, anonymous, but, regardless, it occurs hundreds of times a week in this county alone. So I don't really get your point when you say that large groups are unnecessary. Is that because YOU don't participate in large group rides? Thats a pretty narrow minded point of view, if that's what you're implying.

And when Chip mentions car drivers driving well below the posted speed limits blowing through stop lights/stop signs, Chip, this happens every single day on the roads all over this area! Except when a motorist does things like run stop signs/traffic lights they tend to either kill or seriously injure someone. I'm not saying that's what makes it OK for cyclists to disobey traffic laws, what I am saying is that none of the postings here so far are proactive. You're all just playing the blame game here and that's not getting anyone anywhere.

Large group rides are here to stay whether you want to come to terms with that or not. There are a zillion reasons why large groups can't and don't ride in bike lanes. There are a zillon reasons why they ride 2 or 3 abreast, the reasons don't always tie into a solution to a problem though.

I feel as if since the groups typically ride durin gnon-peak hours of the day and/or evening, that motorists should take tha tinto consideration when choosing a route in which to travel. For instance: why decide to take Beach Dr. early on a Saturday morning if you're in a hurry to get somewhere knowing that, not only is Beach Drive a narrow, two lane road, but also that there are going to be hundreds of bicyclists riding there every Saturday morning around 8:30 a.m.? We also use Pinellas Point Drive as a part of our route, this road is PLENTY wide enough for cars and cyclists to use safely at any time of the day. I have RARELY been on a ride where we the cyclists have taken up so much of the lane on Pinellas Point Drive that a motorist could not pass us safely, even when we are 2 and 3 abreast!

I believe that part of this whole ongoing arguement between cyclist and motorist is one that stems from a rage that comes from feeling entitled to gt somewhere quickly in this county! Since when are we guaranteed that all roads north, south, east and west are going to flow freely whenever we are out traveling around?

I recently traveled to the D.C area. Talk about congestion! We know aboslutely NOTHING about traffic until we've traveled up in that area of the country. And the funny thing was, the drivers there were some of the most COURTEOUS, RESPECTFUL drivers I've ever encountered while out riding my bike

[Chip Haynes]

So much for cyclists being a unified group- or am I not a cyclist because I don't ride with the pack? (So it would seem.) In truth I am, like so many of us, both cyclist and driver and I see both sides of this issue. The best I can offer is this compromise: I promise to not ride with any big group of cyclists if any big group of cyclists promises to not ride with me. I think, that way, we can all ride happy.

[Mel Lucas]

Not really what I meant, but I guess if you've alienated yourself from riding with groups, then you'd tecnically not be considered a part of a "unified group" in the active sense of the word. I ride alone and with a group, so I am able to give an opinion from both sides. Not that I "used" to ride with a group or I "used" to ride alone - I still actively do both. Ridingw ith a grop has changed over the past 10 years, believe me. One in part being that cycling itself has grown immensely over the past 10 years, hence group riding has changed. ther are many more cyclists choosing to ride with groups now than ever before, especially in this state and in this local area.

The St. Petersburg Bicycle Club's membership has almost doubled since 2005. This does not necessarily mean that cyclists are deciding to ride with big groups, but it does suggest that people are becoming more familiar with and more apt to join a cycling group than they were 3 years ago.

What my post was meant to touch on was that comparing and blaming one side or the other is not taking a proactive stance on the problem.

It is a give and take on both sides. It would be close to impossible for any one (or more) cyclists to attempt to control the actions of other cyclists within a group. It's been attempted before with disastrous results.

I have personally witnessed the cyclists within the groups that I ride with take effective measures to be more courteous to motorists, especially within the past year or two. One reason for this is pressure from other cyclists to be more courteous. It's working, but it'll take time.

As for motorists, I suggest that you spend 1 month in the D.C. area in traffic, everday and then come back here and sit in "traffic" here. I guarantee you'll be in touch with how great youahve it here once you've visited a place where you MUST allow at least an additional 30 minutes OR MORE everyday to get to and from work!

A group of cyclists is NOTHING compared to sitting on the Beltway during a regular day (and this occurs Sunday-Monday)trying to get 5 miles down the road!

[Bill Cotney]

There are indeed many reasons that a rider might choose to ride in a large pack, number one of which is to learn how to ride in a large pack! It can't be done any other way. You can't read about it or study it, you just have to do it.

Additionally, there is (usually) safety in numbers, so it's the one ride of the week where a cyclist can concentrate completely on riding, and not have to be constantly concerned about being hit or run off the road. That, incidently, is the source of the humor apparently felt by the guy at the back of the pack. For once he sees a hot-head motorist having to wait until it's actually SAFE to pass, instead of trying to squeeze by anyway forcing him off the road. And the madder the hot-head gets, the more like poetic justice it seems.

But, on to solutions. Education of motorists would be a fine place to start. Most of the anti-cycling sentiment that is being talked about here stems from the fact that most people still think we belong on the sidewalk, and/or other points of ignorance about cycling in general.

Writing laws that actually pertain to bicycles would be good, too. The motor vehicle code was written for ... guess who? ;-)

I'll have to look it up again, but if memory serves there is (was?) a country that allowed all cyclists to downgrade every traffic control signal one notch, meaning a stop light becomes a stop sign, a stop sign a yield sign, etc.

That makes a lot of sense because:
A. Cyclists are not a "threat" on the roads
B. We should be attempting to make ecologically friendly transportation MORE convenient than automobiles
C. There are many times when it is far SAFER for the cyclist to proceed thru a red light after stopping.

Those are SOME of the answers. But I'll tell you what. When the state of Florida decides to implement any single one of these, call me up and ask for Blue, cause that's what color I'll be from holding my breath! ;-)

Bill Cotney

[Todd]

Mel, I thought I told you to stay away from that devils lettuce!

[Bill Cotney]

Oh, and just one more quick comment to "red light runna". Chip Haynes has been an active member of the Pinellas county cycling community for almost 40 years now, and you would be hard pressed to find any single individual who has worked as hard and as long in cycling activism causes as he has.

He does not deserve your insolent remarks.

Bill Cotney

[Nancy to the Rescue]

Red Light Runna:

I'm asking you one more time nicely to refrain from referring to my man as "fat"! He is NOT fat-he's big boned, darn it!

[Chip Haynes]

Wow, Bill, thank you! I rode with the SPBC over 30 years ago, and yeah, I do what I can from both within the government where I work and on my own to promote serious, practical bicycling as a replacement for the car. I've even got a book ("The Practical Cyclist") coming out next year. That said, maybe Red Light Runna is right. Maybe I DO need to shake loose and go ride with the fast crowd- hang with the pack and get their viewpoint for a change. I undertsand there's going to be an SPBC "Share the Road" ride at this year's bicycle Bash by the Bay in St. Pete in the fall. Maybe if I start training now, I won't get dropped...

[Red Light Runna]

OK, sorry Nancy! He is not fat! That was a slip. I meant bald. Feel free to come out on any of the group rides. Don't just wait until the Share the Road Ride. How about a Saturday ride? Sorry Bill, didn't mean to offend you. Sounds like a man crush to me...hmmmmm

[Stalker]

There is an EXCELLENT Saturday ride that goes out to Ft. DeSoto. They meet at the 4-way stop sign at USF's parking lot on 2nd Street and 6th Ave South and take off at 8:30 a.m. You'll see about 40 or 50 cyclists there waiting to take off. Those guys obey ALL road laws and NO rider gets dropped! Jim Zimmer is the ride leader and he makes sure no one gets left behind.

[Tatto Mike]

Why do drivers think they need to go around a group doing 30mph in a 30mph zone and pass us at 100mph? Maybe they are the problem, not us!

[Chip Haynes]

That's a very good question, Tatto Mike. I see drivers on a daily basis seriously underestimate the speed of cyclists- even my speed on a bike. A driver looks at a person on a bicycle, or a group of cyclists, and automatically thinks "Oh, they're going really slow, I'll just pop right around them, no problem." The average driver seems considerably below average when it comes to estimating the speed of other vehicles on the road. Especially cyclists. That might account for all of the accidents around here, huh?

[Mel "Can't Lay off the Devil's Lettuce" Lucas]

I have to agree to a certain extent with Tatoo Mike. Also, I'd like to know why a girl can't get some respect while out riding alone on the streets? I constantly get harrassed and molested while out riding alone. It makes a girl want to ride only in LARGE GROUPS!! That way no one messes with me. I NEVER get any grief while out riding with the group! I hope group rides are here to STAY!!

Does anyone know if it's legal to carry a hand gun in your jersey pocket?

[Chip Haynes]

Mel, if you have a carry permit, it just might be legal (DEFINITELY check with your lawyer/local law enforcement first)- but guns are HEAVY. Especially loaded ones. Try sticking a realistic-looking plastic toy gun in that back jersey pocket so the drivers coming up behind you can see the obvious gun-shaped bulge. That should help. An old friend of mine always wanted a jersey that said, "HONK 2 C UZI" on the back. Me? I want one that says, "ARMED CYCLIST". (Left arm, right arm- get it?)

Good luck.

[Ghost Rider]

Mel, if you have a concealed carry permit, it is perfectly within the law to have a handgun in your jersey pocket...as long as it REMAINS concealed. A visible and recognizable gun-shaped bulge does NOT qualify as concealed.

The other consideration is if you have a gun, you'll be very tempted to use it to retaliate against an idiot motorist...probably why I don't carry one ;)

[Chip Haynes]

And after my post above, I would be remiss in not pointing out that a plastic gun does little good if the other guy has a real one.

[the bossman]

Mel,so explain how it is safer starting out with the group because we all know that after five miles, you are dropped once again. So really it is the same end result. Honestly, have you seen how the group treats girls that "try" to ride with them. It ain't pretty. See you on tonights ride...sucka!!

[Chip Haynes]

My best Groucho impersonation: And if that isn't a ringing endorsement for group rides, I don't know what is.

No, wait- It isn't.

[Bill Cotney]

Hey Chip! Since this has deterioriated into a general mayhem, check out my latest post on my tandem blog: http://billnmaggi.tandemrides.com/

[Mel]

Bossman: That's tore up from the floor up, dude!

I don't see any of you crack monkeys stepping up to the plate to close the hole when some hump back gets shelled in the middle of the group!

Be thankful for me, especially this past Saturday when at least 20 of you freaks rode my wheel back up to the lead group on P.P Drive.

Where's my R-E-S-P-E-C-T??!!

[Bossman]

So you did get dropped and so then did you get back on at the stop sign or the 2 minute red light? You want RESPECT? You can't handle RESPECT!

[Mel]

You blow hole! I TOTALLY let you guys go this morning. I've got bigger fish to fry...

P.S - I know who you are.....

;0