Environmental agency grills Rays on stadium plan

Biologists, environmental engineers and water quality experts drilled into the Tampa Bay Rays' $450-million stadium plan this morning, raising a litany of questions about the effects of a downtown stadium on the St. Petersburg ecosystem.

It was the first time the environmental aspects of the Rays' ballpark proposal have been aired publicly.

The meeting of the Agency on Bay Management, an advisory arm of the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council, covered all parts of the Rays' plan: the water quality of Tampa Bay, the impact on birds and manatees, the health of area seagrasses, the team’s plan to handle stormwater runoff, the Rays' aggressive timetable.

"What else am I missing?" quipped George Henderson, an ecologist with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation's Research Institute, after rattling off almost 20 potential issues.

There were a lot more questions than answers, though.

The Rays' consultants, Tony Janicki of Janicki Environmental and John Ranon of HDR, said they are still in the early stages of analyzing how the stadium would affect the environment and potential ways to mitigate them.

They hope to report back to the advisory group in May or June.

"We're just starting this," Janicki said. "We don’t have a story yet."

Team officials say they must fill in part of the bay near Demens Landing to accommodate a 34,000-seat major league facility. Officials originally said they would need to fill in 0.6 acres of the bay, but consultants said Wednesday it might be less.

The Rays also must also find a way to deal with stormwater runoff.

"I know there are a lot of opinions," Janicki said. "Let's wait" to see the data.

-- Aaron Sharockman, Times staff writer

Comments

[Paul]

I know how we can improve this plan. Have the Rays get all their plans and go for 1 mile walk off our 1/2 mile Pier.

[con]

Sounds like environmaental impact is a minor concern for the Rays. Otherwise, they would have more data than they presently have.

"We don't have a story yet..."

But we'll make one up soon.

[Jimbo]

Wow, all this bitterness, but no facts to back any of it up. Way to protest, people!

[Justin Elza]

Here's a fact Jimbo, the amount of fill required is equivalent to a stack of 1 foot concrete blocks 25 miles high (that's higher than airplanes fly people). Don't believe me? Do the math, the average depth there is about 10 feet.

And what's worse, there is a natural spring there that manatees and sea grass beds depend on. If you don't care about the environment, then you probably say, "So what!" But if you realize that destroying natural habitat is something we just can't afford to do any more, then you probably won't be too thrilled with the Rays selfish plan.

[Justin Elza]

Oh, and please respond to that by attacking me personally!

[Glen]

If they still don't have answers to the most important questions, why is the Mayor rushing this to referendum in November? At this rate, we won't have enough time to review the findings of the many studies to come before making an INFORMED DECISION then. Anyone pushing the November timetable is trying to pull one over on us. There simply isn't enough time between now and November to assess the many, major impacts of a project of this size and cost. This is too big to screw up. What's the rush?

[Justin Elza]

This is just another example of how the natural environment in Florida is a big joke to big business.

Check out this link, from the Marlins official site:

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/fla/fan_forum/manatees.jsp

A perfect example of how they view the manatee, which by the way is a perfect embodiment of Florida's natural environment - still hanging on, but struggling.

[JB]

When it came out today that the parking just isnt there I knew that these new owners are full of it. They are New Yorkers who bought a team to make money..PERIOD They want us to pay for it. Lets see if they can put a couple of winning seasons together first before we invest in them.

[MyTown]

The Rays have insisted the city pay for a referendum on the November ballot. They have used the city's own bond counsel to advise the Rays attorneys. Yet, the Rays have clearly not bothered to do their own preliminary fact finding.

The city staff will have to spend giant numbers of tax payer supported staff hours to research parking, traffic capacity, environmental impact, construction estimates, zoning and other changes which must be guided throughout the process all the way up to Tallahassee--- to say nothing of the $200 per hour expense of the city's legal staff to review all of these issues and any contractual work
(which will be significant).

All this is being paid by tax payers right now - today - this very minute...not in the future.

[Glen]

That marlin Manatee promotion is trash. It's a mockery of the natural beauty here and it sickens me to see how little some care about what we should treasure most.

[Justin Elza]

Glen, I agree completely. And the Rays are just our Marlins essentially. Their plan to fill in natural manatee habitat is consistent with the Marlins mockery of the manatees via the all male cheerleading squad.

These decisions are made by people from outside of the state who come down here for one purpose, to make as much money as possible then leave. Taxpayers and natural habitat be damned.

[Joe]

Lets see this stadium was proposed less than 6 months ago. Give them time to actually do real environmental impact studies. There is nothing wrong with dialogue, however, reserving judgment until all data is in is probably the right response. Knee-jerk reactions are just that knee-jerk. The efficiencies gained by having an out-door stadium(less fossil fuels burned for power) must be considered. Attacking one another solves no problems, and ignores that this is how a proposal process works.

[Justin Elza]

Joe, I agree somewhat, which is why rushing this to the ballot by November makes no sense.

[Tuck]

The stadium plans are still in the beginning stages. How could anyone expect the Rays to have all of the environmental answers this soon?

The important aspect of today's meeting is that the Rays are listening to environmental concerns. They will research the various topics and provide feedback in a reasonable timeframe.

I don't think that it is fair to criticize the Rays' plans until more details are worked out and unveiled.

[Justin Elza]

However, not wanting to see natural habitat destroyed is not a knee jerk reaction. Being dissatisfied with the secrecy that has gone on is not a knee jerk reaction. Not wanting to see 10,000-20,000 cars flooding our downtown looking for somewhere to park 80 days a year is not a kneejerk reaction. Wanting, at the very least, for the RFP process to be done over so that other developers besides Hines can have a serious chance to bid on this is not a kneejerk reaction.

Besides this stadium was not proposed less than six months ago, it has been in the works for at least a year and maybe almost two. Why did the public only have a chance to be involved in the dialogue starting in November (when the plan was leaked to the press). Why wasn’t this made public before the last elections?

Just doesn't smell right. It's like someone cooks you a nice dinner and you sit down to eat and the first thing you take a bite of is rancid, then another you take a bite of is too. How many rancid bites do you have to take before you excuse yourself from the table, as delicious as the meal may look?

[Justin Elza]

Tuck, don't you think an environmental impact study should have been done BEFORE making this proposal? It's the same mentality as the Rays assuming parking lot owners would let them use their space without even asking them first.

[Tuck]

Justin - you don't think that the Rays have previously done an environmental impact study?

There is a vast difference between privately doing a study and being ready to give public answers for review and critique.

The Rays' consultants said that they will be ready to provide information in 2 or 3 months.

Let's wait and see what kind of solutions and ideas the Rays have before jumping to conclusions.

[Steve Lange]

I was at the hearing today. The Rays stated that the proposed stadium would have a 75% reduction in "carbon footprint" over Tropicana Field. Translation: No air conditioning or protection from the elements. The Rays had zero facts to share with the Agency on Bay Management (ABM), a committee of the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council. Only a simple, uninformitive power point presentation was provided. ABM is charged with protecting aquatic preserves, which is what Tampa Bay (and marinas) is/are. HDR has been working on this study for months and months. The Rays set the November deadline not the public. HDR will not be done until summer (their words) and City Council must decide whether or not to proceed with this project during the first week in June. As such, the public will not have this information for the April and May public hearings. And this environmental study is only one study among many needed to analyse this overall stadium proposal! The citizens ARE being left out of the process, intentionally, so they can not see the facts upon which to accept or reject this stadium scheme. We all went to the ABM meeting today for the sole purpose of learning what HDR had determined. We learned that the Rays are determined not to tell us until it is too late.

[Justin Elza]

Tuck, I absolutely do not believe they did any sort of study before conceiving of this plan 1-2 years ago. If they had, they would be ready with the results now, not in 2-3 months (which is how long it will take them to whip up some self-serving study that, like the traffic report, will be based on assumptions and half truths).

And why should I or anyone believe what the Rays or the city are saying? Because they "have always kept their word up until now?" I remember Stu saying he'd never ask for a new stadium, is that consistent with what's going on now?

Corporations and politicians are constantly trying to deceive the public for their own gain, anyone who gives them the benefit of the doubt is either naive or...well, lets just say not well-informed.

Also, please factor in the businesses that will replace the Trop when determining environmental impact vis-a-vis air conditioning. Will all the businesses in the pretty picture the Rays have of that redeveloped land not use A/C?

I'm not saying they are going to require as much air conditioning, but to say the lack of Trop air conditioning will totally offset the environmental impact of the Alien Sailboat is misguided.

[Cathy Wilson]

In my opinion, the issue here is MONEY. What the Rays expect us to pay to fund their dream, what that money could be used for if the Rays dream is denied, what money the Rays currently make from all sources, what money they will make if we do fund this project and what rights they'll be granted to allow them to make even more money are all questions that MUST be answered.
The environmental problems, the parking problems and the host of other issues surrounding this project only come into play IF the Rays get past the MONEY hurdle. Personally, I don't think they can and I also think they know it which is why we continue to be treated to all the razzle-dazzle with no (or at least very few) facts from people who want us to mortgage our future for them.
I very definitely resent the amount of public money in staff and legal time this boon-doggle has ALREADY consumed in the Ray's quest to use and get richer on even more of Other People's Money.

[Taylor]

Umm, no Justin... you remember Stu saying he would never DEMAND a new stadium. Big, big difference between asking and demanding.

Nice spewing of a half-truth by you!

[Taylor]

"what that money could be used for if the Rays dream is denied"

And what exactly would that be? The money that would be used CANNOT be used for anything else.

[Sid]

I like the new stadium.

[Aquaserpent]

Let’s start with the claim made a couple of days ago; the Rays stated that they had conducted a study of available parking spaces in the area, and found it to be sufficient to meet projected demand. When their numbers and locations were checked, first it came up shot on the actual numbers, second some of the spaces were up to ¾ of mile from the proposed stadium site, and thirdly a large percentage of the “available parking” is actually private parking. Today the Rays contend that the private parking should not be an issue because having the Rays downtown will generate $150,000.00 annually, a lie that has been debunked, NO SPORTS FRANCHISE HAS GENERATED ANY ADDITIONAL REVENUE FOR THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH IT IS LOCATED. Again today they say "We don’t have a story yet." When confronted with environmental obstacles that any civil engineer would have seen going into the design process, unless they never did an on-site preliminary walk through. If you are going to an environmental agency to explore the potential issues you are going to face, you would at a minimum bring conceptual design and possible solutions to the issues you know you are going to face.

Speaking about our environment and particularly the manatee, early last year the State of Florida was asking the Federal Government to remove the manatee from the endangered species list and move it to the protected species list. A couple of weeks ago I went to the Florida Wild Life Rescue, and listened to the manatee exhibit presentation, given by a volunteer at the park. He stated in his presentation that the manatee still faces extinction, when asked about the difference between his assessment of the manatees future and the effort to remove it from the endangered species list, his response was that it is the power companies and developers that are pushing for the manatees down grade, and that is the companies and not the scientists that have the legislatures ears.

[Justin Elza]

Oh, right, right. And he made that statement back in May. He then made sure to reiterate in November, after it was revealed that he had been secretly scheming with the Baker and Mussett, among others, to build a new stadium for at least a year (which includes the period during which he made that statement) that he would "seek a stadium but never demand it."

Funny thing is, also back in May, at a point when Rick Baker knew full well about this scheme, he was quoted as saying, "I think the Trop is a great facility right now. It's a great facility for baseball. But if Stu were to come up with a plan and it were going to be for a stadium in the city and it didn't cost any more city money, I would at least take a look at it."

Hmm... He WOULD take a look at it? He already had. His statement was a prevarication, as was Sternberg’s.

Again, something just don't smell right here folks.

Of course he would never DEMAND a new stadium, he didn’t need to, he already was in the process of getting one in a shady, big business meets corruptible politician kind of way.

[Taylor]

"NO SPORTS FRANCHISE HAS GENERATED ANY ADDITIONAL REVENUE FOR THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH IT IS LOCATED."

Hahahahaha!!! That's a good one!

[Kip]

I like the new stadium, it's shiny and pretty and big. I don't care about any of that technical stuff, I just want the big shiny thing!

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

How can anybody listen to anything Rick Mussett says? He sold us the Trop for 85 million. That's what he sold it for but we STILL OWE OVER 100 MILLION!!! The cost has risen to over 200 million with an eventual price tag of over 300 million. How is this man still employed?
He wasn't responsible for a simple 10-30% miscalculation, FOLKS WE ARE TALKING 85 MILLION TO OVER 300 MILLION. How does this man keep his job? Oh I get it, it's close enough for Government work. It's lucky for him he isn't employed in the private sector.
Is anybody going to really listen to this man?

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

How can anybody listen to anything Rick Mussett says? He sold us the Trop for 85 million. That's what he sold it for but we STILL OWE OVER 100 MILLION!!! The cost has risen to over 200 million with an eventual price tag of over 300 million. How is this man still employed?
He wasn't responsible for a simple 10-30% miscalculation, FOLKS WE ARE TALKING 85 MILLION TO OVER 300 MILLION. How does this man keep his job? Oh I get it, it's close enough for Government work. It's lucky for him he isn't employed in the private sector.
Is anybody going to really listen to this man?

[atrulyconcernedcitizen]

How can anybody listen to anything Rick Mussett says? He sold us the Trop for 85 million. That's what he sold it for but we STILL OWE OVER 100 MILLION!!! The cost has risen to over 200 million with an eventual price tag of over 300 million. How is this man still employed?
He wasn't responsible for a simple 10-30% miscalculation, FOLKS WE ARE TALKING 85 MILLION TO OVER 300 MILLION. How does this man keep his job? Oh I get it, it's close enough for Government work. It's lucky for him he isn't employed in the private sector.
Is anybody going to really listen to this man?

[Julie]

I'm going to miss Demen's landing. And if you people think there is any stopping this deal, you haven't been paying attention. BOHICA taxpayers!

[Justin Elza]

It will be stopped or changed to the extent that it is no longer "this deal."

Believe that.

[Tony]

It's obvious that most of you haven't even read the ballpark study that was conducted by the Rays, and I'm not talking about the parking study. From what I read this is far from a done deal, however it is so far the right direction that I would vote yes on it now if it was up for referendum based on these criteria. One, when did the Rays say the community would be hit with the cost of this stadium? There is NOTHING in the plans that state the community would be responsible for paying for the stadium. Two, the outline of stadium maximizes fan comfort throughout the stadium. Be it air conditioning, use the winds of the water, or just plain shade. Will it get hot? Yes, but no worse than the Marlins new stadium and THAT one IS TAX PAYER FUNDED. Three, environmental impact. The proposal shows me that the Rays ARE very active in preserving, or relocating, existing wild and marine life. I don't see anything in the plans that says the Rays want to "tear it up and destroy everything". I think the Rays are being very responsible in their vision for this new stadium. The plans note that they are working with many environmental specialists, the state of Florida and the Feds, and different designers to see what kind of impact each decision makes and what the alternatives are if the impact is too great. I'm sure there will be adjustments as there s very every stadium before ground is broken. Other articles I've read show the hospitals and USF on board regarding parking. What I see with regard to the naysayers are a group of people that don't like baseball to begin with, think the city is a flourishing palce that doesn't need to change, and lastly, they want to remain on a power trip to say they "fought the system and won". The new stadium is necessary. The Rays didn't ask for the Trop to be built. That was the city's doing years ago. One last thing, how come those same people who are complaining now haven't complained about Al Lang stadium? The new one is going to be built in the same place. Go Rays!!

[what in sam hill]

Please grow up people. The Trop cost $85 million in 1992 dollars. The price has not gone up. We're just paying it off over time. If you walk into a car dealership tomorrow and buy a car for $20,000 and finance it over 5 years, your monthly payments added up will total over $30,000 or more by the time it's paid off because of the interest you're paying. It's called the time-valule of money. We're paying off the Trop over 30 years. With interest, it'll total alot more than the $85 purchase price. That's not mismanagment by the city or anything else. It's the real world. Glad you idiots who can't understand simple concepts such as this aren't running the city.

Tony,
1.) It is pretty clear that you would vote for a new stadium no matter what criteria was presented.
2.) If it so comfortable without air conditioning and there are architectural designs that make air unnecessary - then why are millions of Floridians not using the same dynamics in their homes? Oh, and by the way, early discussions of the Trop also talked about it being a retractable roof, but when the dye was cast we got what we got...and FYI - I love baseball and have been to many other major league parks.
3.) The articles you read did NOT say the hospitals and USF were ON BOARD - they said IF they could work it out they would consider it. Big difference.
4.)Did you even bother to read the article you are posting to. It says there were many, many question asked by the agency, but the Rays had no answers. That's what you perceive as good environmental stewardship?
5.) No the Rays didn't build the Trop - but they did sign a legally binding contract which would suggest they knew where baseball is played in St. Petersburg. I assume they physically toured the facility before committing to it.
6.) There is a difference between a new stadium being "necessary" and just "wanting" a new stadium. That mentality is how so many people got into the sub prime mortgage mess that the nation is facing today.
7.) Yes, the proposed new stadium would be on the site where spring training baseball is currently played - but the physical impact is far greater - do you realize the mast is more then 30 STORIES TALL? Do you realize the Rays now want even more land - including part of the Mahaffey property?

This just gets worse every day.

Tuck 6:46 wrote

"...you don't think that the Rays have previously done an environmental impact study?
There is a vast difference between privately doing a study and being ready to give public answers for review and critique."

There is only 1 reason for the Rays to withhold an environmental impact study from the public - it must be a disaster for their project.

Yes, there is a vast difference in privately doing an environmental impact study and being ready to give public answers for review and critique. As the man said, "We don't have a story..."

Notice how people who "support" this stadium plan tend to resort to name calling and insulting remarks? Read back through the posts to this and related articles, you'll see what I mean.

People opposing this scheme tend to focus on their displeasure with the Rays or the city or just the plan itself. Then they are generally insulted personally by stadium supporters.

For those of you who are paid bloggers working for the Rays (not that you all are, but I know some of you are), don't they teach you etiquette?

What you say about someone often says more about you than it does about them. You realize you’re only making it less likely people will ever see things “your” way, don’t you?

Okay, go ahead and insult me now. Let me guess, I’m an idiot and a tool and a moron and a hypocrite and a fear monger and… well, I don’t want to steal all your material.

[Edward]

Anytime somebody tries to force something, anything, down your throat, be smart enough to pull away and check what it is. And then don't let them do it until you are *absolutely* sure it's OK. And be damn sure you are given enough information to make an informed decision.

This whole mess does not pass the sniff test...

[Julie Clone]

BOHICA, baby!

[Glen]

Just like the parking study, this environmental report was bought and paid for by the Rays. I wonder when the last report was issued by either company that contradicted their clients' goals? Never maybe?

[Jules]

I'll bend over Julie, but not to take it.

[Frank]

Why do the Rays get to conduct the environmental report? That's like asking a criminal suspect to prosecute himself. What are the chances of actually getting a conviction? Um, what's less than zero?

This just in: Rays announce their recent study shows new stadium would be harmful to the environment.

Not.

[Rebman]

If anyone is interested read about the ballpark on MajorLeaguedowntown.com. It has alot of information that is not as complicated to read as all these studies. That being said it also has links to these studies. This website also thinks it will be a boom to the city financially. It also has a picture of if the roof is closed what it will look like. It's transluscent!! Very cool

[Frank]

Rebman, do you work for the Rays?

Of course their pictures look cool! Of course they say it will be a "boon" to the city.

It's called putting a thick layer of gold paint on a turd.

But it's still a turd. One they'll make a lot of money off of, and we'll be stuck paying for for years and years.

[Frank]

No New Waterfront Stadium!

[Hal]

This stadium will be a wonderful addtion to St. Pete. I can't wait to see it built. The few bitter ones who oppose this need to stop reaching at far-fetched lies to use as scare tactics. This is a great ownership of a very young, hot Rays team. I support them completely!

[Jon]

The Rays want to built where a VACANT stadium already exists. What is the big deal? Al Lang stadium will just continue to be vacant and sprout weeds. Al Lang was one of the ideal spring training locations in FL. What could be better than building a new, beautiful stadium to continue the rich tradition of baseball on those hallowed grounds. Let's really enhance our waterfront and make St. Pete a summertime destination and showcase to the world how beautiful our city is. I really want St. Pete to grow and prosper and this is a brilliant way to achieve that. Property values will increase as a result of the generated commerce. It will be great seeing local businesses flourish. I will ride my bike to games. Many downtown residents will do the same or walk. There will also be shuttle opportunites so the parking is a non-issue. WE CAN SEE IT!