Hall of Fame potential?

ESPN.com published a list of 50 active players who will become Hall of Famers. Bucs linebacker Derrick Brooks is No.18, followed by former Bucs teammates Warren Sapp at No.19 and John Lynch at No.22. Another former Buc, recently released Simeon Rice, is among those on the bubble, just outside the Top 50. No mention of Ronde Barber.

Whatcha think?

Comments

[Daniel]

Brooks, Lynch and Sapp are all future Hall of Famers. Rices ranking indicates voters lack of respect of his overall game ie; his inability to stop the run consistantly, his talking off plays regularly, his Me first attitude( highest paid D player in NFL for four years, highest paid Buc for six yrs yet would never restructure for the sake of the team despite being asked every year) His wacky Planet Sim interviews and his overall lack of respect to Gruden and Kiffen. Can't see Rice making it on the first or second ballot unless he passes Strayhan on the alltime sack list and stops the run with a vengence the rest of his career. Barber was a late bloomer who didn't start to burst on the national scene until 2001, the year of his first Pro Bowl. We all knew how great he was before then but nobody else did. His abilty to blitz the QB helps his cause and three more years of above average stats will help his cause further. I hope he makes it as Rhonde has been one of my favorite Bucs for a while.

[Darren]

I can not believe ESPN would overlook Mike Alstott! This man has done great things on and off the field, plus he could be one hit away from... something so painful that I won't type it... yet he continues to play for the love of the game. Isn't the Hall all about players who give it their all for the game? The fans, NFL, and football gods will be sure not to follow ESPN's folly in overlooking Mike's skill and dedication to the game.

[Ron]

We all love Mike Alstott, but he has not had a hall of fame type career. This is partially due to being under-utilized for the lsat 8-9 years. I am also not sold on Sapp as a hall of famer, either.

[Pete]

Ronde needs to be on that list somewhere. The only player with 20/20. What got me is that D-Brooks was lower than Ray Lewis on that pole. Brooks has had twice the career of Lewis, but the murderer gets more play because, well, he's a murderer. In the meantime, Leinart? Reggie Bush? We might as well put Cadillac on that list (he's accomplished more than both of those guys -- plus, his shoes are already in Canton). Why are those guys on there, but Fred Taylor of the Jags isn't? I think Alstott might not have the numbers for the Hall, but should get some sort of mention.

[Frank]

Alstot may be a fan favorite but have a look at his stats http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1169
He has never cracked a thousand yards, he did come close in 99. He has been a below average blocker most of his career and he's listed as a fullback. His yardage total for rushing as it stands now is 5088, hardly hall worthy. He has been underused the last four years, but even at the pace he was on, his numbers still would have fell short. I think Alstot is a great Buc too, but hes not Hall of Fame material. Pete, I agree with all your comments except for Alstot deserving mention. I doubt he'll make the ballot.

[Michael]

I think Ronde Barber MUST make the Hall of Fame. He is the only cornerback with at least 20 sacks and at least 20 interceptions. I think only 4 or 5 players overall have done this, and Barber is the only cornerback. To me that just screams Hall of Fame. Brooks, Sapp, and Lynch, are very deserving of it, and maybe even Alstott (although I doubt it, even though I would love to see it)

[Joe Simmons (Slow Joe)]

Even as a Buc fan, I can see most of the comments are from a "Buc-centric" view. Come on, guys. The Hall of Fame is for the ALL TIME GREATS. They call it the "Hall of Fame", not the "Hall of the Very Good".

Brooks stands an excellent chance, as he's virtually redefined the weakside linebacker position. He doesn't have numbers that scream at you, since the typical fan wants sacks from an OLB, but luckily the voters (who are not idiot fans, like the ones that vote for the Pro Bowl) will know just how good he was.

Sapp has an outside chance. He certainly could be a game-changing, dominant defensive tackle, but there are a few whole seasons missing on his resume. I grant you, there were some years he was unblockable. But there were also seasons where he was overweight and underachieved. That will hurt him.

Lynch? I love him, but safeties rarely get in unless they were dynamic in every aspect of the game. Lynch was a great hitter, but was only average in coverage. He has next to no chance.

Rice? Eh, special when he wanted to be. A good player that will be edged out come voting time. I don't see him getting in.

Alstott? Are you kidding? He's one of my favorite players, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, but are you out of your minds? Depending on how you look at him, he was either:

1. A mediocre blocking fullback, or
2. A running back with special short-yardage skills that never was the number one option at RB.

Um, hello? The Hall of Fame generally requires that you be at least a starter at the position that earned you a spot with the all-time greats.

I understand that maybe if he was better utilized, he might have had a shot, but that isn't the case. He has NO shot at the Hall.

Barber? Great player, but I'd be surprised if a cover-2 cornerback gets in. Too many other good corners with better man-to-man cover skills will be retiring soon.

Keep in mind, all these guys will be competing against a LOT of great players that have just retired or will be retiring soon. Players like Jerry Rice, Brett Favre, Marvin Harrison, Priest Holmes, Junior Seau, etc. And only five get in a year. Do you really think voters are going to keep someone like Favre or Seau out of the Hall so Ronde Barber or Mike Alstott can come in?

[Joe Simmons (Slow Joe)]

I should add, though, that I think it is time the Buccaneers organization begins to more overtly celebrate its "Krewe of Honor" by putting their names up in RJS somewhere. I definitely think Brooks, Sapp, Lynch, Barber, Rice, Alstott, Hardy Nickerson, and Paul Gruber definitely all belong there.

[aaron]

Frank you have to realize that all those numbers that Alstott put up were put up as a fullback. those numbers are fantastic numbers for a fullback. he SHOULD be in the hall for being one of the most productive if not the most productive FB ever. he may have been under utilized the past number of years but for a FB he has got the stats to be in the HOF.

[DR]

You can't judge a fullback by his numbers because thats not what his position is about. My point on Alstott is this- If Daryl "The Moose" Johnston isn't in the Hall of Fame, then Alstott better not make the Hall of Fame! Moose is probably the best blocking fullback ever in the NFL and his name should be up in the Ring of Honor.
Barber is lucky he is not on the list for Hall of Fame probables. That may have hurt Grudumbs ego and he would have released him.
For all of you Rice haters who agree he should of been released, why aren't you screaming about the big acquisition of Petigout? He practiced once and hasn't since because of a "sore" body??? Why does he get a pass and Rice doesn't? I feel sorry for Adams, his stats will be worse than Williams last year!

[Frank]

aaron, Please tell me what pure fullbacks are in the HOF. The Chargers Lorenzo Neal has been the best fullback in the NFL for years and I doubt he has a chance. Those other running backs in a fullbacks body ie; Jim Brown, Larry Zonka, John Riggins, all put up put up outstanding numbers, far better than Alstot. He also has 38 fumbles in about 150 games, did you forget those? I love to watch bodies bounce of Alstot when he makes thoses rumbling runs, but the HOF is for all time NFL greats, not all time Buc greats

[Daniel]

Slow Joe, your comments make more sense than any posted so far, even my original comments where a little Buc cenric as you called it. What may help Sapp is his larger than life personality, after all, Howie Long made it, do you think his stats or play were better than Sapps? Also, I got slammed on another thread for saying Lynch was a liability in coverage during his Bronco years. His overall play as a Buc, his leadership skills, and his recognition did make him a top safety. Voters do look at Super Bowl wins and Pro Bowls, although I think the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest, HOF voters consider it for some reason. Lynch has both.

[Daniel]

Furthermore, the fact that Lynch was listed at 22 on this list of 50 hardly means he has next to no chance, he is an extremrly popular player and that does go into the equation.(exhibit Howie Long) Also, Wehrli, the Cardinals safety just made it. He never won a Super Bowl and had only 5 Pro Bowls in a 15yr career. He was nowhere near as popular as Lynch in his day. There are more DBs(17) than there are linebacker(16) in the HOF and nine of those played safety. There are more saties(9) than tight ends(7)in the HOF. Lynch has more than a chance.

[Joe Simmons (Slow Joe)]

Daniel: good points about Lynch. As a big fan of #47, I hope you are right. However, my gut tells me he'll get votes but always be just nudged out by other (especially "skill position") players.

[Pete]

Slow Joe, these aren't just all "Buc-Centric" views. You need to read up a little bit more on football. If you want to go in numbers, look up Brooks compared to Ray Lewis. They are twice as good. But, it's not just about that. Brooks changed the game at linebacker. He was the first small-ish outside backer of his kind (yeah, there was Sam Mills and a few others, but none of Brooks' caliber on the outside). Sapp was the most dominant d-tackle in the game for years. Period. The man was double/triple teamed every snap, still finished as defensive MVP, still finished with a ton of sacks, still finished with a ton of Pro Bowls. Lynch was set for the hall even before the Bucs released him, that's not even a question there. As for Ronde, again, the first 20/20 man in NFL history. If you knew something about the Bucs, you would know that he is not just a "cover-2 corner" Monte uses him in many different ways and allows this Bucs defense to be as dominant as it has been. As for the competition they go up against, no one said they'll go in when they first become eligible (look how long it took for LeRoy to get in). But they will get in. This isn't baseball, the Hall isn't just about numbers in this sport. It's about game-changers and the Bucs big three + Ronde have helped change the game at their positions.

[Frank]

Pete, you make some good points but so does slow Joe. I think both of you know alot about football and the Bucs particularly. I hope our local writers make as strong a case as you do when they are sitting at the HOF induction table discussing these four players as Leroys wait can probably be atributed to them. I have read some of your other comments about the local coverage and the massive negative slant, couldn't agree more. Simms threw some long passes yesturday, yet I hear no mention of it the Times. I don't know what GruAllen did to them but I want to hear about the rookies and new faces, it can't be all bad, can it?

[Joe Simmons (Slow Joe)]

Pete: "You need to read up a little bit more on football."

Oh, this is football? My bad! I thought we were talking about basketball here! In that case, the whole Bucs roster should go to the Hall!

Okay, in all seriousness, you do make some valid points and heck, I hope you are right.

But you're not.

Lynch was/is not "set for the Hall" at any point. Not that he isn't one of the best at his position, but because his position is not well-represented in Canton. The only safety that I saw play that is now in the Hall was Ronnie Lott. And Lott:

1. had WAY better coverage skills (he was a converted corner).
2. earned three more Super Bowl rings (which I don't think should even matter, but the truth is, it does).
3. I know this will sound like blasphemy, but it is true: Lott HIT harder than Lynch. My God, I've never seen anyone destroy a ball carrier the way Lott did. I'll never forget the way he practically ended Mark Bavaro's career on a Monday Night game against the Giants in 1990.

Anyway, if that is the minimum a safety has to do to get in, Lynch has no shot. But let's say it isn't...maybe the Hall will take someone with lesser credentials. That means Lynch is competing with the likes of Brian Dawkins, Rodney Harrison, Rod Woodson (maybe gets in as a corner), and Lawyer Milloy and if it takes a few years, then he'll also be competing with the likes of Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu.

Personally, I don't like ANY safety's chances unless:

1. He's a spectacular all-around player with no weakness in his game and played for a consistent contender, or
2. He's a spectacular player with maybe a weakness or two but has multiple rings on his fingers.

The biggest problem with the safety position is that it usually doesn't require a great athlete. That's why if a corner is too slow (or gets too old), he's moved to safety. The Hall doesn't usually like to induct players that aren't somehow special in some regard, which is why the position is, and always will be, under-represented.

Oh, and on Ronde Barber: I love the way he plays. He definitely is a great corner. But the 20/20 thing won't mean much to the voters. The fact is, he doesn't compare to the all-time greats in coverage skills, which is how corners are judged. He is almost like Alstott...a great player that plays a position that is undefined by the Hall of Fame.

Regardless, if a corner's coverage ability is not such that he can completely "shut down" a receiver, he's not getting into the Hall. It is not fair, because I don't think anybody can do what Barber does the way he does it, but I don't have a vote in Canton.

As for Sapp, I think he was something special, but I know for a fact that some voters said they would NEVER vote for him because he took whole seasons off, and no Hall of Famers have a reputation for that.

Oh, and Pete? About this comment:

Pete: "If you knew something about the Bucs"

Um, season ticket holder since '95 and fan since Doug Williams was our QB. I know a LITTLE about them, thanks.

[Pete]

First of all: being a season ticket holder means nothing about truly knowing about your football team. I've been a fan since birth myself. I don't live in Tampa anymore, so I can't go to the games. Instead, I do whatever I can to watch/listen my boys.

Second: Lott hit harder than Lynch? How would you know? You test them both out? Of the safeties you mentioned (like Dawk and Harrison), none of them are the safety that Lynch is (he's been great for a long time).

On Sapp: what some voters say now means nothing to what they would say later. Clearly, the fact that he and Lynch are so high up on the list means that they are thought in high enough regard to be voted in.

On Ronde: the argument is that he deserved MENTION, not an induction ceremony.

Look, you can make the case that Ronde, Lynch, Brooks, Sapp are pioneers in that they revolutionized defense in the league. How many teams copy the "Tampa 2" now? And why? Because those guys made the difference. It's those type of intangibles that put players in the Hall.

Either way, this list by ESPN was about as dumb as "Who's Now?" and that other stupid thing when they put up 2005 USC against all the greatest college football teams of all time (that would be the same USC team that lost to Vince Young and Texas in the 2006 Rose Bowl).

[Daniel]

Slow Joe, of course you know about football, Pete does too. I hate it when you disagree with someone about any aspect of the game, the first thing that is said is "You don't know about football" People stop with that nonsense. Until colleges offer degrees in the subject, we all get our knowledge the same place, playing the game in H.S or college or if we are lucky enough, the pros, and of course watching it on TV and in person. Any ex pros out there? Didn't think so. This is the list of HOF safties, compare them to Lynch if you like. Ken Houston, Paul Krause,Yale Nary,Ronnie Lott,Mel Renfro,Emien Tunnel, Roger Wehrli, Larry Wilson, Willie Wood. Most of these guys were not elected on the first ballot, but they got in. Part of the process is the local media who vote, making a case for induction. If recent media coverage is any indication, some Bucs might have to wait longer than necessary ala Leroy Selmon. Whats up with this negative coverage anyway?

[Frank]

Some good discusion going on here, I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about skill players and the HOF. Slow Joe you said earlier that skill players might edge out Lynch and others. There are almost twice as many offensive lineman 32 as receivers 18 in the hall. There are more defensive lineman 25 than there are QBs 23 in the hall too. Daniel mentioned that there are more safties 9 than tight ends 7. There are also only 25 modern era running backs as well. When you add up the skill players and the non skill players,add 17 dbs and 16 linebackers, the non skill players have quite a large margin over skilled ones. A statistic I would not have guessed as true until I looked. These numbers give the four Buc potential candidates a better shot than you might have imagined. Now if we can only get Pete to make their case before the vote......

[AL]

I belive it was nfl.com, someone said that there is not a whole lot of defensive players in the HOF. I totally agree with that person and given enough time I think we will see more and more d in there. Brooks deserves it and I am a Lynch fan so hopefully at least one of them gets in.

[Daniel]

Al, you can go to the HOF website and see for yourself, but there are close to sixty defenders in the HOF to 90 offensive players.The largest group of offensive players are O lineman at 32. If you count them as unskilled players, which they are, the number is 90 to 60 in favor of the unskilled players. I am just counting modern era players. There are alot less QBs, WRs,RBs and TEs in the HOF than most people think.

[Joe Simmons (Slow Joe)]

Pete: "First of all: being a season ticket holder means nothing about truly knowing about your football team."

You're logic is flawed. Technically, you are correct. A 12-year season ticket holder could, in theory, be a complete idiot and not know a thing about football. But you failed to support your assertion that I "need to read up a little bit more on football".

Just because you disagree with me does not mean my opinion is invalid or not well-researched. Additionally, you gave no indication as to why your opinion is somehow superior to mine other than "I do whatever I can to watch/listen my boys".

My point is, that you may disagree, but that does not mean I am wrong, or that I am not a well-educated football fan. So please leave the personal stuff out of it.

It's ironic that I actually hope Pete is correct in his opinions. I'd love to see all the aforementioned Bucs go, especially the "Big Three" (Brooks, Sapp, and Lynch). But I honestly don't see it. Brooks will be a first or second-ballot inductee, Sapp and Lynch have an outside shot, and the rest have next to no chance at all.

Oh, and as to my opinion about Lott hitting harder than Lynch, well, it is only an opinion, but I saw Lott's entire career as well as Lynch's entire Buc career, so I think it is a well-founded opinion. It's not an insult, by any means. It's like saying a Ferrari is faster than a Porsche. Heck John would probably agree. Lott's highlight reel hits were devastating.

Daniel: "Until colleges offer degrees in the subject, we all get our knowledge the same place, playing the game in H.S or college or if we are lucky enough, the pros, and of course watching it on TV and in person. Any ex pros out there?"

LOL! Heck, I'd go back to school for that! :-)

Frank: "Some good discusion going on here, I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about skill players and the HOF. Slow Joe you said earlier that skill players might edge out Lynch and others. There are almost twice as many offensive lineman 32 as receivers 18 in the hall. There are more defensive lineman 25 than there are QBs 23 in the hall too. Daniel mentioned that there are more safties 9 than tight ends 7."

Great research, Frank. I guess I shouldn't have used the term "skill player". The point I was trying to make is a safety's athleticism. Safety is often the position for players who aren't fast enough for cornerback or are former QBs that can't throw in the NFL. Lynch himself is a former college QB that converted to safety. In other words, you'll rarely see the best athlete on the field being used as a safety. If John Lynch had 4.2 speed, they'd have moved him to corner.

I can't think of another position like that. If you are a Hall of Fame RB, WR, OL, DL, LB, TE, or CB, the chances are you have physical gifts that made you special and only special at that position. QB is an exception, of course, but any lack of athletic ability can be compensated for with, well, unique QB skill.

If you read Dr. Z on SI.com, he goes into pretty good detail the bias against safeties...much better than I probably did. At 1:48 AM. :-)

[Joe Simmons (Slow Joe)]

I win.

:-)

[Larry]

I have to take issue with the source. Espn is not the source of sporting news it once was. They like to create controversy ,thus creating news. ESPN lately is as hard hitting as "People" magazine.So I hold their choices for future Hall Members with little regard. Sure they have a few obvious standouts on the list. After all, they celebrated an American stuffing 66 hot Dogs or however many as a Sport, then turn around and criticize Tony Stewart for saying he is going to have a few beers to celebrate a victory ,as a poor role model. No, ESPN rates up there wit Celebrity TV or E!News reorting n the Red Carpet.

[Pete]

Just wondering if anyone caught what Sabby had to say about Lynch in the Times today:

"I just think it's not fair to compare anyone to him," Piscitelli said of Lynch, a fan favorite for his first 11 seasons in the NFL with the Bucs. "He's probably one of the best safeties to ever play the game. He is going to be a Hall of Famer. You can't compare anybody to him. It's just like setting them up for failure."

[Joe Simmons (Slow Joe)]

Larry: "Espn is not the source of sporting news it once was. They like to create controversy ,thus creating news. ESPN lately is as hard hitting as "People" magazine."

Very good point. ESPN is nearly unwatchable for me now. As far as the website, damn near all the content you have to pay for anymore. If you haven't already, visit profootballtalk.com. THAT is the best site for football news on the 'net.

Pete: "Just wondering if anyone caught what Sabby had to say about Lynch in the Times today:

"I just think it's not fair to compare anyone to him," Piscitelli said of Lynch, a fan favorite for his first 11 seasons in the NFL with the Bucs. "He's probably one of the best safeties to ever play the game. He is going to be a Hall of Famer. You can't compare anybody to him. It's just like setting them up for failure.""

I love that Sabby is respectful of what a great player Lynch was. However, I hardly think a rookie's opinion, especially one whose best interest is to give a canned response about replacing Lynch, will hold much weight with the Hall of Fame selection committee.

[Aarun]

I don't think there are 50 future HOFers playing right now, but Alstott will be there with Brooks one day.

[Bob]

aaron, Alstot will be there all right, in the audience cheering like the rest of us!!!