Did Clayton speak too soon?

Coach Jon Gruden was clearly miffed today when he I asked him about WR Joey Galloway's prospects for playing on Sunday and he responded with what amounted to a swipe at WR Michael Clayton.

Clayton on Wednesday said he expected to start in Galloway's place at Chicago. Turns out, that probably wasn't a wise move.

"A couple players have already spoken that (Galloway is) not going (to play), but I'll make that decision, okay?" Gruden said. "I'll decide who starts, too. As long as I have the title here as head coach, I'll do that."

Sounds to me like a not-so-veiled shot at Clayton. I would like to think that Gruden wouldn't change his mind and pull Clayton from the starting lineup to make some kind of point, but who knows?

Comments

[mike]

Don't worry. Cower is still available in 09

[Vince]

Poor schlomo:

I was not speaking of the Buc's success againt Raiders in SB, which is what Lynch's comment refers to. I was pointing out that Gruden (and Allen) got two teams to the SB. When Gruden/Allen left the Raiders, everything fell apart.

With the Bucs, they won a Super Bowl, won several division titles, all while dismantling an old team, reworking the cap, and builidng a strong nucleus for the future. They are not perfect, but they have done, by any objective measure (underscore objective)a good job. That is why the Glazers have kept them around. Luckily, the Glazers are not as short-sighted and impatient as you.

[J.]

How many years has clayton had to show his talent again? you people act like he's sat the bench since his rookie season, HE HASN'T! He has been given chance after chance...But he was injured..You're right he has been on IR for how many years now? He's been on the field, running crappy routes, not getting open, dropping balls and fumbling.

He is not the coach and shouldn't be running his mouth. Instead you people attack gruden...again. Maybe we should just let everyone on the team decide who starts. Quincy Black has announced he is starting for the injured Derrick Brooks this week. Coach says..go ahead you make the call sounds good. Bloggers cheer at first and after awhile they're not sure why..then they bash Gruden for whatever they can think of... 5 years ago he...enough alerady.

[Rich]

Vince did you say several divsiion titles?

[Jay]

As I recall, Allen didn't leave the Raiders until 2 seasons AFTER their SuperBowl loss.

I will give him credit for managing the cap so well, but to what purpose? So we have a lot of money to spend on players, and then we don't spend it. Are they just bankrolling for that future "franchise quarterback"? I doubt Tebow or Groethe are going to drop low enough for the Bucs to pick them up in the draft.

Vince, i dont think i have been impatient. I am just looking at stats if you want here they are
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/GrudJo0.htm

you tell me if they are up to par. also look up tony dungys stats

Hey jay, with all that money why aren't there any free agents lining up to sign with the Bucs? Good point on Allen also. As i recall Gruden couldn't live with mckay as well.

The Bucs under Dungy
6-10,10-6,8-8,11-5,10-6,9-7

The Bucs under Gruden
12-4 (super bowl),7-9,11-5,5-11,4-12, 9-7

[TJ]

As for Clayton, I think he still could be a good soild WR. IMO Guden tends to get fixed on players at times. Claytons rookie year he had one of the best, why because Galloway was hurt other wise he would of had a typical year. Clayton got all of Galloway's passes that year plain and simple. By the way if Galloway is hurt for any length in time, someone will step up and the WR cor will have an extra 1000 to 1100 yrds this year. Who will it be I have no idea, but it will happen.

EG on the other hand, I have liked since he was at UF and was very excited when we drafted him I think in the Thrid but could be wrong on that. He needed a couple of years to become poished. Let me say that I wanted him to be the starter for us and had a tunnel vision going and didn't see or want to see because he is on of my favorite players.

Guden on the other hand has had his ups and downs. I know I have had mixed feelings about him. IMO I think he has been under par in his time here. Yes he did win a superbowl where the offense played well against Oakland. This is the first time I have ever heard Guden talk about one of his players like that in the media. He could have been having a bad day. The media can do that to a coach.

[bobbyd]

Oh my God Jay, you didn't just mention Groethe and "franchise quarterback" in the same sentence, did you? Hell even Tebow might be a stretch. The only franchise Groethe might be part of is the Orlando Predators.

You're literally freaking me out with your utter lack of football knowledge. I might have just developed an aneurysm.

[Vince]

You guys crack me up with the stats. What is it about football that makes people love stats? Stats are useless because they depend on the context. For example, the Bucs had good in-season statistics under Dungy, but poor playoff statistics. So what? If you say Dungy's winning percentage was better with the Bucs, I would say -- so, what is your point. He could not win a Super Bowl. (I am actually a big Dungy fan by the way).

My point: stats mean very little. Comparing Dungy's career stats to Gruden's is not actually a fair match, correct? Dungy went from Bucs to a young (underscore young) Indy team that was loaded with talent. Gruden took an old (underscore old) team that was cash strapped. If Dungy stays around, let's see what Dungy's stats are the next five years as the Colts lose players to age and free agency and struggle with cap. That would be a fair comparison. Dungy and Gruden are both very good coaches. The comparison is difficult because the situations are different.

Hey, here's a great stat for you: if the Bucs run 25 times or more a game they usually win. Does this mean the Bucs should just run the ball 25 times? Get my point?

[bobbyd]

Vince,
cash strapped and draft-pick strapped. Don't forget that we lost 4 top picks to get Gruden. Most people don't understand the impact that loss had on an aging team.

[Jay]

Dude, bobbyd, that was a joke about Groethe and Tebow. You can un-pucker your starfish.

[Jesse]

"Al Gore," no one with a brain will ever take your posts seriously. I think some people get what's going on & are true fans, some don't really get it but are still fans, & then are those who aren't fans unless their team is winning. Before Dungy, it was hard to grasp what was going on, but even with Tony, winning wasn't enough for the fans. Remember when they hired Marvin Lewis? How many really believe he'd still be the coach? The owners cared enough to pay a heavy price for Gruden, & my guess is that many of the ones who bash Gruden today are the ones who didn't support that decision from the start. I thought it was one of the gutsiest things this franchise has ever done, so I supported the move. Going into the NFC Championship game @ Philly, I still had doubts, but as soon as Barber took that INT to the house, I wondered why I didn't fully believe & haven't stopped believing since, in Gruden & the entire organization. I don't need to remind everybody that Gruden was the Coach that great, surreal day, one of the best of my life, of Super Bowl XXXVII. I attribute the Bucs success to Monte Kiffin as much as the owners, Gruden & Derrick Brooks & all the players. I love & support this team, & I always will. And I believe this year's team is as good as any in its history. I've been a Bucs fan since 1979.

[Vince]

Good point Bobby.

[DR]

Vince, you're the idiot. You think the Bucs got Plummer for nothing? The Bucs bought Plummer out as well as give up a draft pick. Thats why the Bucs had to get their money back, which was only half of what they bought Plummer for. They wasted money. Go look it up and see that you are wrong. As far as the salary cap, they saved money but they paid Plummer 3.5M to retire as a Buc. Idiots.
The Bucs won weak division titles. How are they weak you ask? They are weak when you lose at home in the playoffs. Dungy had bad personnel which he was in the process of fixing. He did bring in brad and keyshawn johnson. You guys act like Gruden could have taken Dungy's Shaun King team to the super bowl. He couldn't and how do I know...Look at the last 6 years, Gruden has done nothing, nada, zilch with his offense.
Thank God almighty for Monte Kiffen because without him, the Bucs would have no super bowl and the Bucs would be back to the 80's and 90's losing ways. The Bucs defense has been the backbone of this club and Gruden is easily expendable. He was a waste of 4 draft picks and a waste of money. He can still live on through Kiffen's super bowl trophy, but true football fans know and see slop when its put on every Sunday. The offense is a disgrace with no bright future in sight. A change of leadership will change the future for the better.

[DR]

bobbyd, don't hate on college players. Everybody was saying Leaf would do well, Alex Smith, David Carr, Akili Smith, Heath Shuler, pretty much every Gator QB, the list is never ending of good college QBs that sucked.

[Vince]

DR, you are hillarious. You think the Bucs paid Plummer? What would they pay him for? You realize that he did not play, right?

Man that is funny. The Bucs did not "get their money back." The Bucs recovered part of Plummer's signing bonus in exchange for, ultimately, a 7th or 6th round pick to the Broncos.

DR, you are a fraud . . .

[Vince]

DR, love how you contradict yourself. In an earlier discussion you disagreed with my assertion that Gruden brought key players to the SB team. Now you say "You guys act like Gruden could have taken Dungy's Shaun King team to the super bowl. He couldn't . . ."

DR -- that is the point. Gruden brought in new players. Dungy never focused on offense and Dungy chose his coordinators (To Dungy's credit -- and demise in Tampa -- he was loyal to a fault to his assistants).

Thank you for admitting that Gruden did not win with Dungy's team. I guess we have settled that point once and for all.

You are a fraud.

[Schlomo]

i agree with you vince Dungy's post season reconrd is weak, but he was a consistent winner. Gruden record is inconsistent every year. Dungy was loyal, and i agree with you that was an impedement, but Grudens flavor of them month attitude and uncanny ability to drive away good players, keep good players from coming here leaves this team wanting. Gruden took over the helm in 2002 right, i don't think that super bow team was old, they were in thier prime. My point in using stats is to compare the two, Dungy Got fired for less.

[bobbyd]

Schlomo, you have to expect that the Glazers are going to give Gruden a slightly longer leash for winning the superbowl.

[bobbyd]

DR, thank you for making my point. Your examples are the exact argument I've repeatedly made on how every NFL team hits and misses in the draft. All of the pundits agreed those players were top picks, yet they didn't pan out. Everyone was wrong. It won't be the last time either.

[Southern Pirate]

Jay you are really an idiot or you are just trying to stir the pot.

Remember Week 17 of the 2004 season? No, you don't.

Week 17: at Arizona Cardinals (lost 7-12)
Chris Simms returned from injury to start his second game. A 75-yard touchdown pass to Michael Clayton gave the Buccaneers a 7-6 lead. Four turnovers, however, kept the game out of reach, and Tampa Bay lost to the four field goals by Arizona.

Tampa Bay started the season with 4 straight losses, ended the season with 4 straight losses, and finished a hapless 5-11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers_season

Not to mention the fact that I met up with Bruce, Jon and Paul Hackett in April 2005 just before the draft when the came out to see Aaron Rodgers work out. At the time, Bruce arranged to have Jerry Rice there and the only person allowed to cover it was a SF Bay Area sports writer named Jerry McDonald which piss off the Tampa press. Don't F---- with me son, I have too many sources, you simply won't beat me with facts.

Now here for you entertainment, first round of the 2005 draft.

1. San Francisco 49ers - Alex Smith*, QB Utah

2. Miami Dolphins - Ronnie Brown, RB Auburn

3. Cleveland Browns - Braylon Edwards, WR Michigan

4. Chicago Bears - Cedric Benson, RB Texas

5. Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Carnell Williams, RB Auburn

6. Tennessee Titans - Adam Jones*, CB West Virginia

7. Minnesota Vikings (from Oakland) - Troy Williamson*, WR South Carolina

8. Arizona Cardinals - Antrel Rolle, CB Miami (Fla)

9. Washington Redskins - Carlos Rogers, CB Auburn

10. Detroit Lions - Mike Williams*, WR USC

11. Dallas Cowboys - Demarcus Ware*, DE/OLB Troy State

12. San Diego Chargers (from NY Giants) - Shawne Merriman*, DE/OLB Maryland

13. New Orleans Saints (from Houston)- Jamaal Brown, OT Oklahoma

14. Carolina Panthers - Thomas Davis*, S/OLB Georgia

15. Kansas City Chiefs - Derrick Johnson, LB Texas

16. Houston Texans (from New Orleans) - Travis Johnson, DT Florida State

17. Cincinnati Bengals - David Pollack, DE Georgia

18. Minnesota - Erasmus James, DE Wisconsin

19. St. Louis Rams - Alex Barron, OT Florida State

20. Dallas Cowboys (from Buffalo) - Marcus Spears, DE LSU

21. Jacksonville Jaguars - Matt Jones, QB Arkansas

22. Baltimore Ravens - Mark Clayton, WR Oklahoma

23. Oakland Raiders (from Seattle) - Fabian Washington*, CB Nebraska

24. Green Bay Packers - Aaron Rogers, QB California

25. Washington Redskins (from Denver) - Jason Campbell, QB Auburn

26. Seattle Seahawks (from Oakland through NY Jets) - Chris Spencer, C Ole Miss

27. Atlanta Falcons - Roddy White, WR UAB

28. San Diego Chargers - Luis Castillo, DT Northwestern

29. Indianapolis Colts - Marlin Jackson, CB Michigan

30. Pittsburgh Steelers - Heath Miller*, TE Virginia

31. Philadelphia Eagles - Mike Patterson, DT USC

32. New England Patriots - Logan Mankins, OG Fresno State

Need I say more?

[Southern Pirate]

DR, he was not paid to retire. If he was, it would go against the cap. You seriously that Bruce sent a draft pick to the Broncos so he could pay him $3.5M? You must be the author of the Obama Tax Code.

And by the way, if you pay a player to retire, it goes against the Cap. 31 GMNs around the League where waiting to pounce on the Packers had that deal gone through with Farve.

[Jay]

Yes, you do, because I have no idea what point you're arguing. RB was not a position of concern for that team, but QB was with the way that Johnson had aged rapidly and regressed in skill. Why did we spend our first rounder in 2004 on Michael Clayton - who was a possession receiver? Because Gruden and Keyshawn Johnson couldn't get along.

I don't understand the point of your little story with Jerry Rice. What does that have to do with Gruden not getting along with his players or managing them correctly?

[Southern Pirate]

You don't understand the point? You recently said I was wrong, Clayton was taken over Aaron. Try staying on track, we weren't discussing if we needed a running back, we were discussing your constant errors when it comes to facts.

[Southern Pirate]

And the point to the story about Jerry Rice was I know more than you, even stupid dumb facts that would pass even the best informed fans by. Bet the sports writers remember that story, cause since that time, there has been a bad relationship between both sides and it shows in all the factless chases that arise and go nowhere in the media.

[HailGruden]

who knows?! lol. i think we know gruden, making points and defying logic. i cant help but think it doesnt make players respect gruden more, but causes more dissention.

[jobucs]

Vince is my hero. Thank you for stating what I wanted to say but couldn't put into words especially to DR. Go back to Dallas and stay. What is your problem?

gruden is a jerk.

[Michael Clayton]

You guys are all a bunch of idiots!!! Yes i will start sunday against the bears,and yes i have my swagger back,and will reach over 1000 yds receiving this season.. Grow up and find other things to talk about,other then me and my coach,and team!!!!!!
Big 80 over & out.

[Kurt]

I've been b!tchslapping DR for 2 years now because he can't think clearly and makes dumb statements with no validity. You should just ignore his hilariously ignorant and uninsightful tendencies. He will be wrong again this year about Gruden just like he was last year. Again and again; doesn't this get old for you DR?

[schlomo]

bobbyb, your right they wil give him a long leash, but how long? I guess we will hall have to wait and see how the season plays out. If it's another loosing do we give him a pass and make the leash longer? at what point do the glaziers say enough?

[Southern Pirate]

DAMN schlomo, how drunk were you when you typed that?

[John P]

Southern Pirate, Thanks for posting the 2005 first round draft above. After reading through it I'm amazed at the sheer volume of busts picked in the top 20. Incredible!

[bobbyd]

I would expect this season to be Gruden's last as Bucs coach unless he has a winning record. He may even need to win a playoff game to hang on.

[DR]

You guys are morons that understand nothing. The Bucs didn't pay Jake Plummer, they paid the Denver Broncos $7M. This was done to compensate for the bonus they already paid Plummer. In other words, the Bucs paid Plummer by second hand. The Bucs tried, I repeat TRIED to get the $7M back but could only get $3.5M after the ruling. Who did they rule against? Jake Plummer.
Paying a player to retire doesn't count against the cap unless its after a certain deadline. Plummer never counted against the cap because he never reported. Favre never counted against the Packers cap in 2008 because he retired in March.
The funny thing is Gruden and Allen actually thought they could persuade plummer to play. Plummer would be their best QB if he did play. Too bad Gruden is the coach.
For whatever reason you all don't understand, Dungy brought in Brad and Keyshawn, the two main ingredients in the passing game. Gruden brought in a second and third WR and changed RBs. I couldn't care less who coached the Bucs in '02, Kiffen's defense was amazing. Even a horrible play caller like Gruden could ride the coat tails of Kiffen. There is no debating the FACT that the Bucs won the Super Bowl with Defense. The Ravens won with defense and their fans didn't enshrine Billick as the greatest coach ever. You guys are clueless. You think the Glazers gave away way too much for just one year? The only thing different in '03 was the defense didn't play as well, and what was the result with Gruden's "guys"? A losing season. So much for that great theory.
Kurt, for the last two years, you have made me laugh. I hope to god that you are as far away from the football field as possible at all times. You know nothing about the game. You obviously have never played at any level and you should be embarrassed by your replkies to most blogs because they have no relevance to football. You apparently B-slap people, but only with unwarranted insults, and never with any football knowledge. I hope your favorite golf player/ race driver is doing well this year.

[Vince]

DR:

Plummer renegotiated his contract with Broncos in 2005. Bucs traded a 7th round to Broncos for Plummer. When he retired, the Bucs filed a grievance (along with Broncos) and recover $3.5 miliion from the signing bonus that the Broncos paid to Plummer (not the Bucs). As usual, you are just wrong. Here is an exceprt from ESPN:

"Tampa Bay officials, who placed Plummer on the league's "reserve/did not report" list when he failed to show for the start of camp, had hinted at such a maneuver. In a contractual technicality, when the Bucs acquired Plummer from Denver in March for a seventh-round draft pick, which could have escalated to a fourth-rounder if he did not retire, they also gained the right to try to recoup part of his signing bonus money.

"It is believed that the teams are seeking $7 million to $7.5 million, essentially for breach of contract, because Plummer failed to fulfill his existing five-year deal."

Here is the link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2965907

[Vince]

DR

Another fact you have wrong -- no ruling in grievance. Parties mediated the settlement.

[Vince]

DR:

You are so ridiculous that there is no need to respond anymore. Bucs had a great defense (as always) during the SB year but Gruden won what Dungy could not -- a big road playoff game, Gruden installed an offense that actually put points on the board (do you remember the Rams game where the offense could do nothing even though defense shut down the Rams)

Last point -- you should never accuse anyone of ignorance when you cannot even get basic facts correct.

[Kurt]

DR, shall I refresh your b!tchslapped memory? Last year, you thought we would go 4-12 and you stated that E Graham was a "crappy" running back. I however told you we would go 8-8 or better and when Graham was forced inot action told you how well he was going to do because hi is a MANCHILD! You think that Gruden is a terrible coach even though he has led his franchises to 6 division championships, 3 conference championship games and 1 SB victory in 10 years as a coach. Despite such AMAZING and undisputibly the best stats of any coach ever (stats that MATTER,) you can only come up with offensive rankings and overall records which mean nothing (go ask the Pittsburgh Steelers.) I've corrected DR on numerous other flagrant fouls throughout his blog life, but dumb people never understand how dumb they really are...that's what makes them dumb! Bucs will win this division this year because we are the deepest team (look at the Saints right now after we beat the crap out of them; they can barely field a team!) Cowboys lose in the first game of the playoffs again while the Bucs get to the Conference Championsip again!

[Southern Pirate]

DR, one more thing. Jake Plummer's retirement paper work has yet to be processed. The Bucs hold his rights and as an inactive but not retired play would count against the cap. No please, surprise me by shutting up.

[DR]

And the year before the Bucs went 4-12 and you guys thought they would do good. haha, you're too funny. You make reference to going to the championship again as if Gruden has been there multiple times...he's been there once you idiot. Tell Gruden to win a home game in the playoffs. Grudens stats as Bucs coach is average at best. If you think about the game that got them to the super bowl, Kiffen's defense held the Eagles to 10 points, something his defense couldn't do in the past.
When will you ever learn Kurt, stats that matter, does a division championship really mean something when you lose at home in the first round of the playoffs to a lower seed? No, it means nothing. It means you won the worst division in the NFL because somebody had to win the division.

[DR]

Plummer's contract does not have any effect on the salary cap, he doesn't count. As far as the trade, the NFL network had different terms for that trade.

[DR]

Kurt, I'll give you the EG argument but everything else is pure crap. What are you going to do when Caddy takes EG's spot and the Bucs finish with a losing record? You're gonna beat the crap out of the Saints? What evidence supports that? How can a garbage offense beat the crap out of any team? You must be banking on Kiffen's defense scoring 3 TDs.

[Vince]

DR -- your only response on the Plummer issue should be to admit you were wrong. Buc did not pay Denver $7 Million, did not recover only half their money etc . . .