Bucs' pass-defense tactics no secret to Patriots receivers

Patriots WR Wes Welker knows what's coming when he and New England line up against the Bucs' secondary on Sunday.

The Bucs are going to challenge Welker and Randy Moss, as they do with every opponent, with aggressive, in-your-face pass coverage.

And the Patriots will do their best to exploit it, something they're very good at.

"A team that's physical like them, you have to be physical back," Welker said, referring to the bump-and-run coverage Tampa Bay plays. "You have to make sure you're out there doing the things necessary to get open, whatever that might take.  They are a very aggressive team (in the secondary) and like to get in your face and you have to be prepared for it."

A little stat comparison to consider: The Patriots have thrown 12 touchdown passes, tied for third-most in the NFL. On the other end of the spectrum, the Bucs have yielded 13 touchdown passes, the third-worst total in the NFL.

-- Stephen F. Holder, Times Staff Writer

Comments

[D Block]

Who doesn't know is more like the question.

[D Block]

Please no more Hovan!!!
No more Bates!!!!!!!!!!

[Daisy]

Moss and Welker are shaking in their boots from fear of the NFL's worst secondary!

[clark kent]

How can the secondary be so lousy with a secondary position coach as the head coach. Does that seem a little odd to anyone but me? I guess you could say that Raheem doesn't know anything about Bates' more aggressive, man style of play, so maybe he stays out of it. To me that seems like a conflict of football defensive strategy or scheme. Who would design a team like that? A moron maybe. I really hope I'm wrong.

[BigBucDaddy]

Glazers, how can you let my beloved Buccaneers fall on such embarrassing and hard times? Shame on you! SELL THE TEAM NOW!

[clark kent]

One thing I noticed is that Dominick and Morris don't sign any older/veteran players. I admire trying to develop young players because that is how you prepare for the future. But to base so much on their age and longitivity could be this GM's downfall. Gruden/Allen's veteran and aging roster wasn't very effective either but there has to be a happy medium somewhere. I would love to trade and cut every player over 30 for additional draft picks but that would mean this staff would have to nail every pick. That's fantasy land for even the best team's staff let alone the Bucs' coaches. I think a little bit of Gruden/Allen's win right now philosophy might help this team. Some more aging veteran's would certainly help the pitiful coaches.

[Valrico Rick]

There isn't a defense scheme that will ever work against the pass, no matter what it is, with out a pass rush! Throw in the inability to stop the run, and you end up with your defensive backs looking like they can't play! As for the Glazers selling the Bucs, whoever buys them will have them in that brand new stadium in L.A., so if you want to lose the Glazers, you're going to lose the Bucs too! Have you ever noticed NFL speak? GMs, coaches, and players from every team almost always say things, "like stop the run", and "balanced attack". Another one of those is "whatever it takes to win". Sure a victory would calm some of you down, but a top 2 or 3 draft pick could yield the Bucs a player change the future. "I'm sick of the loses too, but this about starting over, known in the NFL as rebuilding, and it sometimes means sacrificing the present for the future!

[clark kent]

Fan's and former players(Simeon Rice) can talk as much crap about Jon Gruden as they want to. He had 3 losing seasons out of 11 as a head coach. He won 5 division championships, one conference championship, and one superbowl in his head-coaching career. The Glazer's fired him and hired Raheem Morris as the coach and the team can't even compete because they're building for the future. The future's looking pretty bright indeed.

[jjbjeff]

I think the Glazers really had to relieve Gruden and Allen in order to rebuild this team. I don't disagree with that decision one bit.

We were never going to be a consistant team with the revolving door of veterans that Gruden and Allen were bringing in, which is obvious by Grudens record here.(sub 500 after McKay left)

Their big mistake was hiring Raheem as head coach. 2007 was his first year in the NFL as a DB coach, he was just an assistant DB coach prior to that, and spent one year as DC at K-State.

If you are a gambler, he is an interesting choice. But, there's not a GM in the league that would have put their neck on the line and made this move.

The best thing Raheem can do for the franchise is go 0-16. We will get the #1 pick in the draft and he will be gone, fired. And hopefully Dominik and the Glazers learned a good lesson.

LOOK AT THE RESUME NEXT TIME!!!!!

[OAR]

McKay left the Bucs in the great salary cap shape too, LOL! (See Simeon, Brad, Booger, and several other contract extensions)
You sound like you have a little spin-DR in you. According to you, Gruden didn't bring in any of those free agent veteran players(27 new ones) that superbowl year to make offense accountable and McKay gets all the credit? But when Allen gets here its all Grudens choices and his faults? Dominik was Bucs pro-scout with McKay and Allen, yet gets no blame for help bringing in the veteran free agents that didnt work out. Too funny!

[Vincent]

This whole "Raheem Morris" debate is tired. You either like him, and believe he has some possibilities and can be the answer or you don't. Any argument backed with facts and stats fall on deaf ears, who only choose to see what they want to see, ignoring history of the NFL as the guide (not the rule, but the guide). The problem is the bias against Morris has little if any to do with Morris' record, but just an objection to his being hired in the first place. The arguments made are supposedly on his performance, but there is no real reasoning and substance in the objections. There are no informed statements. It's all just moaning and bickering mostly. They are completely one sided arguments that are more emotional than scientific. They focus on elements that may in fact be "true" but don't account for the complete scenario, and don't take into account all aspects of the current state of the football team. I'm just glad the Glazers seem to have some sense. I'm glad they aren't like Dan Snyder, or Jerry Jones. I'm glad the Glazers aren't meddling in the affairs of the team. I'm glad they seem to feel the way I do about the team, which is a "wait and see" attitude.

[Andy]

With the talent that is in the NFL. You could let Madden 10 pick your plays for you and win atleast one game a year.

oh and some screen passes wouldn't hurt.

[OAR]

Vincent,
Unfortunately, that "wait and see attitude" is what is going to happen.
BTW "The problem is the bias against Morris has little if any to do with Morris' record," one problem with Raheem's record is that he didn't have one. Now he does and it is a painfully 0-6!

[OAR]

Outside the Box: "The Red Zone" co-host Derrick Brooks.

Brooks, who played with Adams for two years, explained why the Bucs gave up on Adams.

“I think there is a lot left in Gaines Adams,” Brooks said. “The first thing you get is an athletic defensive end that can compliment Mark Anderson and Alex Brown and Adewale Ogunleye. I think he will help the Bears.

“Also, Gaines gets to go back to a defense than he was drafted to play in. He will be with Rod Marinelli and he runs a defense in which Adams had some success in rushing the passer as a rookie.

“Gaines, for whatever reason, can’t play in the defense the Bucs are running now. He didn’t deliver this year and, again, for whatever reason, [the Bucs] didn’t see him being successful in the system they now run.”

[Midwest]

I completely agree with the last thing clark kent said ... amen to that!

[clark kent]

Vincent if you think debating whether Morris is a good head coach or not is tired issue when the team is 0-6, I question whether or not you really are a Buccaneers fan. Of coarse our arguments are more emotional than scientific because die-hard fans get emotional about a team. That is brilliant. Take your "wait and see attitude" elsewhere. What scientific or well-informed statements do you have about the team? None. So let us idiots do all the bickering please.

[Robert]

Clark Kent, why is it so hard to realize that if a team cant pass rush it's secondary will get exposed? You can line up the best corners and safeties in the league, but if the QB has 5 and 6 secs to throw the ball the WR's and TE's will win. If we could generate a pass rush our secondary would be great. Barber is a HOF and talib is one of the best, young DB's in the league right now. The only weak link we have is with the Allen/ Sabby rotation. So, this has nothing to do with the Secondary and everything to do with not genearting pressure.

Every1 is talking about Bates's system. We r not running his system. We r running mostly our Tampa 2. the reason it hasnt worked well is bcuz that D relies on getting pressure from the front 4. We will not b able to really judge how well bates's system is going to wrok until next year. This year in the draft the Bucs will draft the BIG DL that Bates needs to run his D. But to say Bates's D is horrible is wrong bcuz we r running a 2 deep and zone coverage right now. Our DL is horrible and the real problem on D. Look what Car did last week running the ball. Not only does our DL not get to the QB, but now they cannot close holes to stop the run. This has nothing to do with Morris's Secondary, but with the horrible DL.

val, u my friend, already said what I just did and Im glad that some ppl actually realize what the problem is

[Robert]

Mack has been getting exposed when we r in the nickel too, but our other corners have played well.

[clark kent]

Sounds like you need to be on a science blog, there Vinnie, then you could back your statement's with cold hard facts, equations, and charts. But instead you bicker with us about the Bucs. It makes so much sense to say our discussion is meaningless when your taking the time to join in it.

[OAR]

Robert,
Pat Kiran, among others believes that we are running a version of Bates system with the wrong players. Even Brooks says they are running a different scheme(see above from The Red Zone). We have done better when they are running a hybrid of the tpa-2.
BTW of course defensive schemes work better with pressure!

[Daisy]

This rebuilding thing sucks! With Dummynick and Rah Rah doing the drafting, look what it got us last year! Can you visualise them picking again this year? Dumminick signed a LB that can't play, a QB that can't throw, gave $25 mil to a receiver that can't catch and had only 2 TD's in 4 years! With this type of management and sorry coaches, will they ever win?

[Robert]

For as bad as our DL has been this year our Pass Defense is 11th in the NFL. I would say that is pretty good considering we cannot get to a QB

[Robert]

Daisy, plz stop posting.. u have no clue. Dom has a 7th rd rookie that was just named Special teams player of the week. U HAVE NO CLUE. Clayton is gettin his market value. There were 2 other teams that were going to offer him what he is getting paid. Dominik has been with this organization for 14 years and has found numerous players for us. He was responsible for Peanut last year. So Daisy, plz stop posting. U really dont know football and it shows. Not every 1 on here is always right, but u constantly come up with the most ridiculos comments.

[Robert]

By the way Clayton's contract is only guranteed for 2 seasons and then he can be cut. So there is a chance he doesnt see alot of his contract.

[Robert]

OAR, my main point is that Bates doesnt have the personnel to run his D and we cannot say his D is horrible until he does. We have run alot of different looks, but Bates scheme hasnt and cant be implemented yet. This guy has had multiple top 10 D's for a reason. HE KNOWS DEFENSE. I think the D will get alot beeter after this years draft. We r going to have to draft some DL that fit his scheme and after that happens we will c if his scheme is going to work here. Oar, so many ppl r trying to jump on this guy, but we that know a little bout football realize he doesnt have the guys he needs for his D.

If u go back and watch the tape u will see that we usually have 2 deep safeties and r olnly bringing pressure with our front 4. talib is pretty much lined up in man and the other corners r getting the help over the top. Bates is just trying o run the best D he can with the personnel he has

[clark kent]

Robert, dude, I realize one part of the defense rely's on the other. Hence the word team. You say everything on the defensive side of the ball rely's on getting to the quarterback, but that's pretty naive. We got humiliated by the running game last week. I would say some of that falls on the secondary. Bates' system, whatever that may be, is not working, at the moment. I really hope some big lineman will pull it all together. You have to work with what you got, and Bates' has yet to pull it together with this unit. I don't think he will have too many more to try with.

[OAR]

Robert, not sure if the other teams were going to offer what Clayton got from the Bucs. He didnt even go to work thier workouts(well maybe one but I dont think he even did). What mulitiple D's has Bates had in the top 10? Only one that I know of Dolphins(with Taylor, Thomas and a couple of really good corners cant remeber their names now).

[OAR]

Any who..... you know what they say about losing.......IT SUCKS!!!

[Robert]

OAR, the Vikes and Seattle were both willing to pay Clayton what he go here. Mia's D under him was a top 10 D more than once. Clark, what Car did to us on the ground starts up front too. Everything u do in football starts in the trenches. When the OL man handles your DL and opens up big holes u r goijng to run for alot of yards. Im not saying our secondary hasnt made mistakes, but the numbers dont lie. Our Pass D is 11th in the NFL behind a DL that is horrible. I would say that is pretty good considering.

[Robert]

OAR, it all comes back to what u said. LOSING SUCKS! For that reason we the fans r going to complain bcuz it hurts to watch a team get man handled every week!

[Robert]

OAR, how bout that plane they took to England.. That thing was huge. I have never been overseas and been on a plane like that before. Heard they r pretty sweet.

[clark kent]

People are jumping on Bates' already because the Buc's defense is garbage right now and they will keep jumping on him until it gets better. That's his job to produce a good product on the field. If he looked like he was improving the D at all I would get off his case. I really hope he knows how to straighten it out.

[TriplePlay]

Vincent - "They are completely one sided arguments that are more emotional than scientific." - I obtained some DNA from Raheem from a wad of skoal he shot on the turf at RayJay. Turns out he has absolutely zero lineage to any coaches.

Like I've said a hundred times, Morris is simply a long shot gamble by the Glazers primarily to appease Goodell and the frikin Rooney Rule. If Raheem and Dominic fail no big deal. The Bucs will have great draft choices to provide for next years new coach who will either be Holmgren, Cowher or Shanahan. Just watch it play it out and in the meantime don't stop wearing the Bucs colors. The Glazers are playing NFL politics.

[Vincent]

OAR, while I rarely agree with your comments, I believe you are a huge BUCS fan, and you at least make sense with what you are arguing, and why you think the way you do. Tripleplay, I'm sure you are just making a light joke about "DNA", so I'm not going to comment further than to acknowledge that I read your post.

Posts like Roberts, where he talks about the team not really having the "horses" to run the defense are informed comments. In my opinion, we need more criticisms in that tone, rather than the typical "anything they do as a team is automatically bad" kind of responses that have been prevelent on these boards as of late.

Both of those kinds of comments whether you agree or disagree, are well formed and make sense. Disagreeing with Morris' hiring is a valid argument. Saying Morris is a failed coach is not. History of the NFL has overwhelming data to support that you can't judge a coach in the first year, for good or for bad. If you don't get that, then there's no point in trying to elucidate any further.

I'm suspicious of Bates' scheme as well, yet I know enough to understand that there isn't enough football played at this point to condemn him.

Believe me, if the BUCS were 6-0, I'd be making the exact same argument! That's why last season when the BUCS were 9-3, it was myself, Valrico, and DR who were predicting the downfall. We could see it coming because of the system (that had 6 years under Gruden) was breaking at the seams. We were sadly right. I actually thought (And still think) Gruden was a great coach with an outdated system. I digress.

Triple play makes a good point. If all fails, the Bucs will have some good opportunities down the road regardless of what happens this season.

[Kurt]

The forest through the trees is that Denver's defense sucked the past few years under Bates. It currently is ranked in the top 5 after very little personnel turnover and ours has taken its place. This isn't rocket surgery (that's a joke nimwits) and those are all the "stats" you need Robert the Dumb. Furthermore, Raheem was never qualified for this position and we are getting what we deserve! Clayton is definitely overpayed (look at the stats!) and just because some other teams were willing to pay for him doesn't mean he's worth it! Sometimes I wonder what midget minds some of these comments emanate from?

[DizzyDog]

We're 1 player away from being 1 player away....

[D Block]

This is what the Great Gruden did here in Tampa Bay.

2002
12-4 Wins the Super Bowl.

2003
7-9 No Playoffs

2004
5-11 No Playoffs

2005
11-5 Playoffs!! 0-1 Gone Fishing

2006
4-12 No Playoffs

2007
9-7 Playoffs!! 0-1 Gone Fishing

2008
9-7 No Playoffs!! Gruden Fired

57-55 Was Grudens record here in the regular season.

3-2 Was Grudens record in the playoffs all of those wins coming in 2002!

Last years team was 9-3 and only needed to win 1 out of there last 4 games in order to make the playoffs didn't happen. Two out of those 4 games where at home.

If you exclude the Super Bowl season Gruden is 45-51 Here in Tampa Bay.

Dear Fans!! The Secondary here in Tampa Bay is ranked 11th! Right Now if you don't believe me it's on NFL.COM

[D Block]

I don't agree with everything Raheem has done here so far by any means at all. But if some of you are going to make statements be accurate. He was a secondary coach and did well with it, the secondary is ranked 11th right now.

But the Great Gruden was suppose to be an Offensive genius please would anybody here tell me when did the Bucs finish in the top 10 in Offense while he was here? Don't worry i will wait for the answer.

The Defense was already in tact before Gruden got here because of Monte Kiffin and the talent already here. Gruden did push the team over the hump his 1st yr & won the SB. But his EGO allowed key players to walk in the offseason because he got tired of hearing about him winning with Dungys team and the Bucs haven't won a playoff game since. Gruden's Pride & Ego lead to his firing as much as the late losses yr in and yr out.

[D Block]

I will continue to say let Bates go!!! The smart thing to do would be to send an additional man at the QB heck some teams send as much as 8 total players. Those teams don't have good front 4 pass rush but they don't complain and hope that the starters will mysteriously get better over night. We don't have the front 4 of old and have missed Sapp & Simeon ever since they left. It's time to blitz a little more you can call the perfect pass coverage but if you give a QB time he will pick you apart plain and simple.

Defenses are suppose to attack not be passive.

[Kurt]

So, let me get this straight D-Block, you think that your "Pride and Ego" statement is factual? That's about as opinionated and unsubstantiated as anything I've ever heard. The "fact" is that the Bucs spent less than any other team 6 of the 7 years he was our coach and he still was able to pull off a winning record. Now that's great coaching. You see now what bad coaching gets with the same talent. I mean really, if we got rid of all the "old" dead weight, then we should be fresher and better right? Just trying to be "logical" that's all.

[D Block]

Ok Kurt lets be straight about it Gruden let the players walk right out the door like they could've been easily replaced. He knew that the team didn't have any early draft picks so why let the players you just won with go?

It wasn't a secret that Gruden wanted to put his own stamp on the team when he brought in players like Tim Brown, Charlie Garner & Ian Gold was a good pick up from a formal rival but wasn't offered any money to stay. In Grudens defense he & Allen where handed a heavy cap in the beginning.

[D Block]

Another thing Kurt out of everything i posted all you got out of it was Grudens EGO & Pride?

[D Block]

Ok i see a few of you defend Bates, in the beginning i preferred Joe Barry because he was here and was a DC and Rex Ryan took the HC job in NY. But once Bates was here i looked at the good part he did well with the Dolphinsl. But some here say that they aren't running Bates system well he damn sure isn't running Montes. The 2 gap scheme is all Bates and that is the start of the problem the secondary looks good but the 1 gap scheme would improve the Defense in a major way.

The Bucs have incorporated part of Bates System. The press coverage the cover 3 the 2 gap responsibility of the defensive lineman. It's HARD for a lineman to rush up field when he is responsible for 2 Gaps! It's completely a waste if you are not blitzing at all it just doesn't work and the proof is in the record and stats.

[D Block]

3-4 Defensive Lineman are responsible for 2 Gaps and this team doesn't have those types of players on the defensive line. We dag on sure don't have 3-4 LB's to top it off. So why are the Bucs continuing to dig a deeper hole for themselves by continuing to run the 2 Gap Scheme on the line when they have quick 1 Gap players. But the reason i'm all over Hovan is he didn't look good in any Defense the last 2-3 yrs in my opinion.

[Kurt]

D-Block, I do admit that you at least offer real, on-field football analysis compared to some of these other hacks on the site, but your analysis of what has transpired concerning coaching and management appears naive at best and ignorant at worst. Gruden did a good job as coach for the cheapest ownership (I can't underscore that enough?) How can you say a winning record, SB championship, multiple division titles and a competitive team week in and week out is a bad job, regardless of the cheapest ownership in football? It's ludicrous really and very short-sighted. But as I said earlier; we're getting what we deserve now and I hope we all savor the flavor so that it doesn't happen again.

[Brandon]

Those of you bashing the Bucs' secondary (Daisy and others) know absolutely nothing about football. On 90% of the big pass plays we've given up this season, the blame could be put squarely on the slow-moving shoulders of the team's pass rush.

This Bucs secondary is the lone strength of the defense. Aqib Talib right now is nearly an upper echelon CB, he has had great coverage for most of the season. Tanard Jackson is a play-maker at FS, Ronde Barber has played far better than expected against other teams' #2 receivers and Sabby has played much better since week 1. Piscitelli has actually been very good in coverage since week 1, with most of his errors in taking poor angles and missing tackles in the running game. Granted, Elbert Mack leaves much to be desired as the 3rd CB, but our 4 starters are as good or better than any other team's in the league.

It's our pass rush that is the guilty party here, not the DBs. No group of DBs in the history of the league could cover guys, especially in man2man for as long as our DL allows opposing QBs to stay in the pocket unmolested. Sure, Jimmy Wilkerson has had 5 sacks and I appreciate all of them, but none of those sacks came off initial moves, they all took 4 seconds or longer to register and those are considered coverage sacks courtesy of our DBs.

The other guilty part here is Jim Bates. Only a moron would think that running a man heavy scheme would work with NOBODY to rush the passer. There is nothing wrong with "bend but don't break" if the alternative is to give up TDs on the opposing offense's 2nd or 3rd plays on a drive like we did way too often against the Eagles.

The goal for the rest of this season and offseason should be to find and develop a pass rusher, ideally one that can be stout against the run as well. In the draft we need to target a DT that can disrupt offense against both the run and the pass. Honestly, I don't care how infatuated with Freeman Morris was, the obvious glaring need of this team going into the 09 season was pass rush, instead we got a prospect at a position that will take 3-4 seasons just to see if he works out for us. Not smart!

[Brandon]

I agree with DBlock about blitzing more and considering Kurt has always been an idiot I have no problem supporting his comments with facts.

Here's the thing, the Bucs have been mostly running 4 pass rushers at opposing QB's while playing man-to-man, or at least cover 3 (which is essentially the same for the CBs), 75% of the time. An offense can only run 5 receivers into a route, we match up all 5 of those receivers with a player in man-to-man (when we are running it), that's two extra defenders that aren't rushing the passer and from the frequency of long passes being thrown, they aren't defending the deep pass either. There is no excuse not to blitz more... I mean, seriously, what is the worst that could happen? We give up a long TD bomb on the second play of the game? (ooops, been there, done that!).

Block supported Joe Barry as DC, I was against that move for a variety of reasons, his lack of success in Detroit, the bashing he would take for coming from Detroit with no success, but that was it. He ran the preferred scheme, one that would allow this team to be more competitive on a play-by-play basis.... but my first preference was Ron Meeks, Tony Dungy's right-hand defensive man and his DC in Indy since 2002 (two #1 overall rankings in that time despite most of the Colts $ being spent on the offense). Meeks was available when Bates was hired (who had pretty much been fired 3X in the past 4 seasons). My second choice was Rod Marinelli, who might not have WANTED to be a DC, but still, he would have been way better than what we have now. Either way, Meeks or Marinelli were far higher on my list than Bates and his two-gap man-heavy system. The T-2 has not only proven itself as a ruthlessly effective defensive system, but also a far cheaper alternative than a man-heavy system that requires lots of $ to be spent on top-flight CBs.

Bates should be fired and left in England following the game. He should be replaced at that point by Barry to see if he can get his system re-installed during the bye week and to see if we can see better results for the remainder of the season (he CAN'T be any worse). If Barry works out, we retain him as DC for next season, if not, we go hard after a DC that can really implement a smart scheme to its fullest (Marinelli).

[BucFandango]

Collectively the worst coaching staff ever. Jim Bates' system sucks. Jim Bates Sucks. Olie's system sucks. Olie Sucks. Zone Blocking is great if they actually know how to do it. Take a good O line and now it sucks. Dominick made a good pick with Stroughter. Miller is good but I don't see greatness there. Dominick could have traded all his picks except the 7'th rounder and we'd be in the same shape. Dominick did have a hand in many of the past failures, so did Hickey. Promote them both and give them a cigar to sit on. Raheem, well Raheem is just Raheem. He isn't well spoken, He is highly motivated. He doesn't know clock mgmnt very well. He has the hip bump down to a science. He doesn't know a good play from a bad one. He does smile a lot. Raheem has hired every coach that is smarter than him, but they're all stupid, so what does that tell you? You would think with the Glazer's love of Soccer they would at least have a decent kicker on the team. Ticket sales were bad this year, OMG wait until next season. The Bucs don't blitz. The Bucs don't throw screen passes. The Bucs are the most predictable team in Football. Buc coaches stand on the sidelines, watch their team get hammered, and make no adjustments. At least call a time out to stop the bleeding. No, they might need all 3 timeouts when their down by 20 points with 1 minute left. Everybody, I mean everybody, except Raheem knew that Leftwich sucked and was a wasted signing. I just can't believe the Glazers will tolerate this downward spiral for 3 years under the pretense of "Rebuilding". C'mon man, is this as good as it gets?

[Kurt]

Ah Brandon, just when I thought you were offering some insight you go and show your ignorance. What exactly was I an idiot about? That Griese won the job like I said he would? So, in your world, being right makes you stupid. OK, I got. Well then I'm the biggest dumb@ss on the blog because everything that I predicted has come to pass; and in a real hurry I might add! You are so stupid to talk about who you would've hired and fired because the argument should be why did we fire our coach? Because of you morons!!!

[Kurt]

The only people on here (that I can think of) that make any sense most of the time are Aaron, Oar and BucFandango. The rest of you should go back to delivering pizzas.