Plan To Pass Senate

The Senate passed 4D overwhelmingly, 39-0. This is the implementing bill that describes in detail the specifics on the joint resolution.

Their tax plan pits two very important issues to Democrats against each other: school funding versus jump-starting the economy.

Most of the relief comes from portability of the tax plan, which impacts schools. The impact is a $1.85 billion hit to schools, compared to $1.4 billion over the same period under the plan the Senate passed nearly two weeks ago. But portability remains an important piece of tax relief to Democrats, because they continue to get complaints from constituents who feel trapped in their homes.

Then some like Sen. Jeremy Ring and a number of Republicans don't like the 10 percent cap on the increase of value of non-homesteaded properties, because they think it doesn't go far enough. They want a lower cap. There's also no relief for low income seniors, which had been very important issue to the Republicans in Miami-Dade. Also, the plan doesn't meet Sen. J.D. Alexander's concerns that something be done to help small counties who are going to struggle under doubling the homestead.

Sen. Dan Webster explained to Senate Democrats this morning that he thinks the hit to schools will be less than what's projected, assuming that most people buy up. With portability, even though residents would carry the same amount of savings against property taxes with them, they'd be paying more property taxes overall -- including more to school districts -- because they're buying a bigger home. Democrats and teachers unions asked if the Senate could project that sort of buyer behavior to better predict the impact to schools.

Comments

Why are all Senatorts...regardless of party, so worried about how lowering taxes will hurt Government?

Whose side are they on for Christ's sake?

Because for some reason they are beholden to local governments....mainly because they depend on them for re-election purposes in their district. Scared they will support someone against them in primaries.

How is providing portability impacting revenue? Maybe we have the reason behind the budget shortfalls in the first place with that statement. Why would our budget folks assume there would be an increase in tax revenue from people moving? If all levels of government are working under this assumption, we are in deep trouble.

How would passing anything jump start the economy when it would not show us as a savings for consumers until a year from now?

[Will]

10:18

THE portability will immediately allow people to start moving, start building, etc. Then the housing market recovers.

Just what Florida needs. Lets cut schools by $1.85 billion. Maybe now we can finally drop below Mississippi so we can have the worst schools in the nation.

[terminator]

the Senate plan while not what "the people" would describe as dropping property taxes "like a rock" has improved on several fronts and most likely will get a muted approval from the House.
Marco pushed hard and forced them to incorporate aspects of the House plan into their final bill, so a little tinkering here and there and the deal should be done by this afternoon.
Schools will have to suck it up (no one can be held totally harmless), we'll take the half loaf over no loaf and the war continues during regular session.
To fellow bloggers: the problem took years to come to a head and will take more time to ultimately settle out.
Bottom line is: it will kick start the economy and get things moving again.
Look for a 7% cap on non-homestead property rather than the 5% the House is projecting and the 10% in the Senate package.

[Jonny Anonny]

45,000 children in Florida waiting on subsidized child care...
Families choosing between going to work and child care...
96% of all Pinellas County families with children under the age of 18 have one or more family members working. Yeah. *This* is really going to help the economy.

27,000 children living below the poverty line in Pinellas...
3.1% dropout rate...
8% of children ages 0-4 have no health insurance...
And we're going to "drop taxes like a rock" in the tenth lowest tax burden in the nation.

10:31am is right: you know what's going to drop like a rock? Our standing in the nation. We're going to have the sickest, stupidest kids in America.

[Will]

terminator,

I wouldnt expect anything lower than the 7% cap, with schools exempt.

I guess the senate will not even consider the 40% exemption plan, would you agree with that assessment?

Portability may have to exempt schools to avoid a hard fight from the democrats and teachers union.

Low income senior exemption may come back to raise the number on the tax cut.

10:18,

Property Taxes are assessed as of Jan 1 of the taxing year, meaning your taxes that you will be paying in Novemerber are based on the value of your home on Jan 1 2007. If this plan goes into affect Jan 1 2008, which I imagine will happen if passed later that month, then everybody who moved this year (2007) and next year (2008) will be able to transfer their homestead. For instance, I moved last February (2007). My homestead was still effective on the house I moved from because I was there as of Jan 1. My homestead on that property will be removed next year (2008). If this passes effect Jan 1 2008, I can then have it transfered to my new home thus keeping my capped value. If people know they can do this, they will no longer be "trapped" in their homes. They will not have to wait until 2009 to move either, it will be immediate, as the taxe assessed is specified for a exact date, Jan 1 of the calendar year.

[Will]

Johnny Anonny,

You are clearly a BIG govt liberal. Florida is NOT a BIG govt hand out state.

People who have kids should be responsible for paying their own child care.

You want a nanny state govt, move to California.

we could just be like 43 other states and levy an income tax?

that way, we could deduct it from our IRS bills, and Floridians might receive more of their share of federal dollars?

3.1% dropout rate? That seems really low to me. I know we would like 0% but 3.1% seems like that is much better than when I went to school.
8% without healthcare seems low as well. Again, I wish 100% of parents were responsible enough to insure their childs health, but I gaurantee you if these children were sick, medicaid would pick it up.

10:50,

You do know that the US Congress is trying to do away with the state tax write off right? Even if they don't, ask any state who pays a state income tax if they would rather pay state tax and get the write off or not pay. We don't need a state income tax anyway, just another tax increase.

[Jonny Anonny]

Sure, Will, "liberal," whatever you say.

What I believe is that there are thousands -- tens of thousands -- of working families who struggle to find and pay for quality child care every day. And when they can't, their work suffers and their children suffer. Not in that order.

Guys like you, Will, are always bloviating about how privatization and theoretical extra cash in your pocket will deliver you to some sort of dropped-rock promised land. So you'd think that someone making the case on behalf of working families -- the people who work for the companies of Florida -- would get a little support.

But this is where people like you show true colors: give me mine and back off.

Well. If being "liberal" is helping others through a structure that allows them to work and raise their children in an evironment conducive to making them happy, healthy, successful children, then I guess I'm a liberal.

10:53

if the amount one pays in state income tax + property tax + sales tax is overall less than what we're paying in Florida with only property + sales, I don't see what the problem yes.

Yes, it's nice not to pay it if your other taxes remain nominally lower. But, that's not the case in Florida.

Jonny, we appreciate your desire to help children and others. It is a noble intention. Some of us, however, do have a tiny problem when you want to do it with our money, not yours.

It is not the government's job to take care of the children. Where the heck has all the personal responsiblity gone? So, if I get out of high school, go to college, start a career, get married, have children, live a responsible life. Why should I have to pay for the girls/women who do nothing but live off the welfare rolls.
Oh, thats right, its the government's "job" to take care of the "children". Give me a break!

You shouldn't have had kids if you can't take care of them. Ever hear of birth control? I'm not paying for your kids.

[VPS]

Jonny,
I'm glad to hear that:
"96% of all Pinellas County families with children under the age of 18 have one or more family members working."
Isn't that what one does to support oneself and one's family?

[Jonny Anonny]

The arguments -- presented by 11:27 and 11:35 respectively -- get me every time. The unbearably whiney "it's my money, the government shouldn't take it and do stuff with it," and that old chestnut, "it's not the government's job to take care of the children/personal responsibility" bit. Both classics. Good ol' GOP talking point classics.

Except they're total bunk, of course. 11:27, you live in the same representative democracy as the rest of us. America just wasn’t founded on the principle of “it’s mine and I get to keep it all.” It was founded on the principle of equal opportunity for all. Not everyone is born to that; not everyone starts out equal. It is the job of government to serve as the great equalizer. It is the covenant of all Americans that we help those least among us. This is who we are, and it ought to be what we do.

But not for a lot of us Floridians, apparently. Your arguments are so cold, so callous, it's really hard for me to believe that you believe them. "So what if 45,000 kids waiting on subsidized child care" is *really* your argument? In the tenth lowest tax burden state in the nation?

I must say, that's takes cajones. Real cajones.
Even the dimmest simpleton can see how slashing critical services to those who need them the most – and most especially child care – is just bad business. Remember business? It’s that thing you Republicans claim to love so much.

So folks who lose their jobs not because they were bad at them, but because they couldn't afford healthcare and experienced some sort of medical emergency, or some sort of tragedy should just show some "personal responsibility."

11:35, you should have to pay for the girls/women who rely on government-subsidized assistance for food and medicine and child care for those children, because without it, those children are the ones who will grow up and end up in the juvenile justice system, and later, the adult criminal justice world. And if the subsidized child care price tag is knocking your conservative little socks off, wait until you're paying for their stay in prison. If they haven't robbed you of all your precious, precious money by then.

$100,000 to build a new prison cell. $200,000 over 25 years to pay the interest on the construction debt. And more than $20,000 a year -- minimum -- to house an inmate.

Yours, in sincerest compassion,
Jonny

[Jonny Anonny]

11:47 am -- You may *think* you're not paying for someone elses kids, but you will. One way or the other, you will. You can either pay a little bit now to the government, support reasonable programs (like, again, subsidized child care so that those 98% of families with kids under 18 can *continue* to work), or you can pay later. You can pay a whole lot more later.

So the one group of homeowners who are getting screwed by the current system (first time homeowners) are getting absoultely nothing out of this, right?

[Omega83]

Jonny - while I admire your argument that the cost to care for kids now is less than the cost of their delinquent behanvior in the future...

I am still forced to agree wholeheartedly with 11:47, who said:
"You shouldn't have had kids if you can't take care of them. Ever hear of birth control?"

for that is the ultimate in personal responsibility decision-making.

[Jonny Anonny]

Thanks, Omega83. Look, I'm all for birth control, too. I'm also pro-choice. But that's really a red herring.

The point is, there are still hundreds of kids in Pinellas, tens of thousands in Florida and half a million nationwide who need subsidized child care.

No such thing as a time machine, Omega83. Can't go back and give these mothers birth control pills.

[Debbie]

Sorry - people need to take responsibility for their own - actions and offspring. As for fairness Jonny, since it's the government's job to be the 'great equalizer' as you so eloquently put it, then you should realize how UNEQUAL property taxes are in this state. A great equalizer would be equal and fair treatment for ALL.

[Jonny Anonny]

You're right, Debbie -- people do need to take responsibility for their own. And when they no longer can, the government ought to be able to provide services that allow them to get back on their feet. You may not want to be involved in the ugly side of society, but you will either on your own terms or not. The beauty of democracy is, you get to choose which way.

Please note that I never, ever said property taxes were fair in this state. They are grossly unfair. Save Our Homes is a joke. And, as you'll note, the Senate just passed a stinker which does nothing for new home owners, does nothing to address highest and best use.

My thought is that the tax system ought to utilize a broader base. Why not *lower* property taxes and implement an income tax.

Debbie, we're the tenth lowest tax burden in the nation. Means we don't pay a he11 of a lot of taxes. It's just all lumped into property taxes, so it feels wrong. If the governor and legislature weren't pandering for votes, they'd let the state tax and budget reform commission do their job.

It's not the government's job to take care of the children anymore than it is the government's job to take care of the developers and realtors. Yet, that's what this session is all about. Then there is the old "If you can't afford to take care of your kids, stop having them." Well, if nothing else, this current issue shows that development doesn't pay for itself. It is not a smart way to anchor the economy. So how 'bout this: If you can't afford anymore development, stop doing it.

So while I appreciate your desire to help developers and realtors, I do have a tiny problem when you want to do it with our money, not yours.

[Will]

Johnny,

An income tax will never happen in FL. Once again, if you want it, you can move to any of the 43 states with one.

And the state does not mostly rely on property taxes. That is about 20% of total taxes, sales tax is about 35%, gas taxes are about 10%, and the other 35% is from various tourist taxes, doc stamp fees, impact fees, professional license fees, etc.

Its actually quite diverse. In a recession, their tax base usually falls a whopping 2% or so, very tiny.

oh yea, i came from MI, where the property tax rates are higher than in FL, same sales tax, higher tag fees, same gas tax. States that implement an income tax just use the extra money to grow govt, not cut other taxes.

[Old Gal]

While I can understand how everyone can be tied to their viewpoints, all are disregarding the value of a lesson in history. We are currently on the brink of a recession. To get any tax break at this point will be good and help. To expect government help is redundant because that help comes at our own expense...free money is truly not free. Being a baby of a depression family, I have heard worse woes than merely poverty...we are fortunate note to have true starvation in this country which we had less than 100 years ago here. Look to the past with an eye to the future and do not always blame one party or another ... it is not one group's fault but a privileged one or two at the very tippy top that hold the cards.

[Jonny Anonny]

Will -- thank you. I wasn't aware of the percentage breakdown of the tax base.
Whether or not an income tax will ever "happen" is hardly relevant to the point that this state needs one. Will, we can agree that the property tax system here is broken (surely we can agree on that). But just lowering taxes in the model of a broken system hardly fixes the problem, and in fact only creates new ones. This is my only point -- that lowering taxes means fewer services. It's people in need that rely on those services. Fewer services, more people in need.

All I'm saying, Will, is when you have to fire your employees from your company because they can no longer afford child care and must stay home with their children, just connect these dots. That's all.

To Old Gal's point: hunger persists in the United States. According to the USDA’s Economic Research Service study, 35.1 million people – including 12.4 million children – live in households that experience hunger or the risk of hunger. This represents more than one in ten households in the United States.

In 2006, the U.S. Conference of Mayors reported that requests for emergency food assistance increased an average of 7 percent in the United States. Furthermore, they also found that 48 percent of those requesting emergency food assistance in the United States were members of families with children.

Also in 2006, the nation’s largest network of food banks, America’s Second Harvest, reported between 24 and 27 million people turning to the agencies they serve.

I might point out that all of this has happened on the watch of our current president -- the guy who gave overwhelming tax breaks to the wealthy.

Governor Crist wants to bolster this -- for what reason, no one has actually asked yet -- by "dropping taxes like a rock." Seems unwise. Speaker Rubio had Grover "drown-government-in-the-bathtub" Norquist down here first of the year to tell the House how it's done.

Frankly, I'd just like someone to use their brain for a change as opposed to the wants of their campaign coffers.

Old Gal, I'm just not sure how tax breaks are going to help us either in an impending recession, *or in the recession we're already in.* Propping up the wealthy and middle class on the backs of the poor is no way to run a country.

[Jacque Campbell]

No equal taxes yet. Nothing again for next year and what a mess we will have. Thanks to this year's legislators and the broken promises from our governor. Election promises never to be seen.

it will take dilligent voters to get rid of all these legislators. Florida needs better that what we have. We need politicians that are not afraid to correct the wrongs in property taxes and property insurance.

You use power of the election process to show them who is the real boss.

I'm sick and tired of hearing that the schools are going to suffer - where the hell does all the Florida Lottery money go? SOH portability does nothing for somone who moved 2003- 2006 and seniors have paid long enough. People NEED and deserve tax relief in an unbiased way - businesses, seniors, first time buyers. Raise sales tax 1% and divert ALL Lottery money to schools (which is what we were let to believe would happen when we voted for it). Just another way we were hoodwinked by Govt. Services are not going to suffer.

[Debbie]

Jonny dear, I'm quite familiar with how the tax system works and also how it is when those in society also need a little help. I'm also well aware that there are millions (oh, and millions) out there who are getting their free rides because of all of the handouts they are receiving. The group I was referring to regarding paying their fair share might relate more to those who have their quaint little protection just because they have owned their own for some time. They are utilizing the same general operating services provided by these taxes as everyone else is. This isn't about 'social services' for the under privileged. Since you are so well versed and clearly the expert on all matters tax related, why aren't you in Tallahassee with the rest of them?

[Jonny Anonny]

Who are these "millions and millions" getting a "free ride." Really, I'd like to know. I always hear about the multitudes who are kicked back and draining out the government coffers... but I never see them.

Let's see if we can identify those greedy little rascals together, Debbie.

Is it the 700,000 children who live in poverty in Florida?
Is it the nearly 150,000 children in Florida who suffer from abuse and neglect?
Are those doggone freeloaders the more than 670,000 children in Florida with no health insurance?
Is it the 32,000 kids suffering in a busted foster care system?

How about the more than 1,300,000 children in the school lunch program.

You're right, Debbie. We should put a stop to the parasitic behavior of these wicked freeloaders and give you the money you so richly deserve! And why not! Because as 3:20 says, government services won't suffer.

Debbie, this is *all about* social services for those who need them most. This is *all about* propping up the upper middle class and the wealthiest among us on the backs ofthe poor and needy.

And it's about doing all of that through a system which we all agree is broken perhaps beyond repair, and ought to be fixed, and not cynically manipulated.

No need to get personal, Debbie. I'm not in Tallahassee because I love what I do right here.

[Jonny Anonny]

Not incidentally -- I agree with 3:20 that the lottery deal seems flawed at best.

[Debbie]

Yes, we can tell how much you love to lecture. And clearly believe you are the expert. Who said this had anything at all to do with children? Until you know me or anything else about me besides a few lines on a blog RELATING TO PROPERTY TAXES, don't pretend to tell me what I believe or think. Take your soap box somewhere else.

[Jonny Anonny]

Debbie, children were brought up at 10:31 this morning, and not by me.

Of the two of us, one of us has used readily accessible facts and figures, easily available statistics to make their argument. I'm not the expert -- I just believe that government works and that there are a lot of people who are hurting.

What do you believe?

Also, I'll keep posting right here, thank you very much. Why does it always get so personal when your side loses?

[Old Gal]

Jonny, Hunger is different than starvation.And a tax break can make a lot of difference to anyone. A family farm makes less than poverty wages in this day and age and that is assuming that the land is paid for and the farmer can make their own repairs. A small tax break, if it only amounts to $300 a year is A LOT when compared to a gross income of $9000 per year. You will find that this same family will not qualify for any of the social services you bemoan for various reasons and they are proud of that. They are proud because many are from peoples that came and help founded this country from various backgrounds and not all from Euro-Caucasian either!
As to economic effects, often the smallest help can be effective which is what you are trying to convince all of us of with social services. Think of a tax break as a social service to those that fund the social services. The middle class is a shrinking entity in the United States due to the taxing of it. You are not quite completely knowledgeable when you say that it is always the rich that benefit from a break. This one will benefit the middle class and the lower-middle and the land owning poor. It will benefit those that have worked hard to make their sweat count. I know, I was once there and made my sweat and effort count to get an education, earn an income, and purchase a small home. I have never once accepted social assistance. I have offered help to those who needed it without requiring a receipt to deduct it. I have offered help without needing to be known. If you feel that there are problems with hunger, when was the last time you gave to your local foodbank or donated your time at a soup kitchen. I know I can answer those questions concretely. If you can not, perhaps you should not be lecturing but rather practicing giving back lovingly to your community to learn through giving of yourself and sharing what you have and it will be a rewarding experience for you socially as well as educationally.

[Jonny Anonny]

Old Gal, I have to tell you that you and I agree on far more than you'd think.
Once again -- I've never said that the property tax system in Florida isn't broken. It is. There's no question there. Most everything that has been propsed would be modest (at best) for lower and middle income people (like me), and a boon to those with expensive properties around the state.
This is a problem that can be fixed, but not by offering modest tax breaks to most Floridians. The tax system itself needs to be restructured, and there is a commission at work right now looking at this.

The middle class is a shrinking entity because they are subsidizing the wealthy.

I'm not saying that Americans can't make it on their own. I'm saying Americans have always made it on their own, and they've always done it, hand in hand, with their government. If you're only making 9,000 dollars per year, you are well below the federal poverty line. And my guess is, you'd be participating in some sort of government service -- TANF, Head Start, WIC, school lunch programs -- whether you recognized it for that or not.

Although I agree that "hunger is different than starvation," I really must protest on this point. There is not one single, solitary thing that is okay about someone being hungry in America. They call it "food security" at the USDA now, and it means "access by all people at all times to enough food for an active, healthy life—is one requirement for a healthy, well-nourished population."

I give back to society and my community every single day. I think we can agree on this, too -- it's a wonderfully rewarding experience.

[Old Gal]

Nope, the family never participated in Women, Infants, Children (WIC)-Not necessary on a farm, no head start, and no subsidized school lunch program because at that point my father did not believe in government subsidies. The movie Cinderella Man reminded me of him to a "t". I have followed that mindset that I was brought up to as well and it has served me well. Not to say that social services do not serve a purpose as long as they serve as a temporary help and not a long-term solution. But any help, whether it is small or not, is a welcome one. We must choose to fight the battles we can, and win the ones we can. Think of it as the Revolutionary War where we fought guerilla warware style. I am certain our side would have liked to have jumped in and fought a HUGE battle and won BUT we fought small, constant battles and they were much more successful. With the inevitability of big government, where our individual legislators' hands are tied by their bosses (Majority Whips & Minority Whips)...they have to try to do the best they can. They all went up there wanting to make a difference. None of them wanted to go up to do nothing! They all went up with dreams and woke up to the nightmare of "if you do not do what your party tells you, we will do this or do that..." and found out that their dreams for their people back home could be shattered in an instant if they did not know how to play by new rules. 'We the people' need to empower them by learning how to cry louder and better to the ones in charge...to learn who are the ones to threaten with their jobs...it is not the soldiers but rather the generals that need changed! When 'we the people' do not knee jerk and stop reacting from one term to another and get some consistency we all may benefit a bit more.
(By the way, I am glad you donate time and efforts...it makes your corner of the world better which is all we truly can control in the end.)