Times poll: Dems want primary results to count

Howard Dean and Barack Obama may insist Florida’s Democratic presidential primary was meaningless, but a new poll shows Florida Democrats aren’t buying it, and one in four may not back their party's nominee in November if Florida winds up with no voice in the nomination.

Not only do Florida Democrats say that the Democratic presidential contenders’ boycott of their primary had little effect, but an overwhelming plurality want the officially meaningless results to count, a new St. Petersburg Times/Bay News 9 poll finds.

A record 1.75-million Florida Democrats voted in the Jan. 29 primary, which Hillary Rodham Clinton won by 17 percentage points, but as punishment for holding the primary earlier than allowed by the national party, no delegates were at stake. Now, as a nomination stalemate looms, the candidates and state and national party leaders are struggling to figure out how and if America’s biggest swing state can have a voice in the Democratic nomination.

"If there’s one thing that this survey says is you have to acknowledge the Jan. 29 primary on some level," said pollster Tom Eldon. "You really can’t say the Florida primary was a non-event to voters. It was a non-event to Howard Dean according to the rules of the DNC.”

Twice as many Clinton supporters -- 56 percent -- want the Florida primary to count as do Obama supporters -- 27 percent. Still, even among Obama supporters, the idea of counting that primary is slightly more popular than holding a new election or dividing Florida’s delegates evenly between the two candidates.

“We’ve been not counted so often and especially in this state that has felt for so many years that our vote doesn’t count, to not count our votes again would be so detrimental -- especially for our youth," said Tallahassee resident Molly Gosline, 45, executive director of a nonprofit group and a Clinton supporter.

But Carly Loiseau, a 29-year-old nurse and Obama supporter in Wesley Chapel, didn’t bother voting in January because she knew Florida had no delegates and said it would be unfair to count the election now.
"I blame the state of Florida, the Democratic party. They knew the rules and they could have followed the rules like the rest of the country, but they chose not to," said Loiseau, a nurse.
Other key findings in the poll:

• Obama has gained strength in Florida, and today lags Clinton among Florida Democrats 46 percent to 37 percent, with Clinton leading by 33 percentage points among white Democrats and 20 points among Hispanics. Obama leads among African-Americans, 74 percent to 12 percent.

• Florida Democrats point the finger of blame for the primary debacle in several directions: 28 percent blame Republican leaders in the Legislature, 25 percent blame Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean, and 20 percent blame the Florida Democratic party.

• More than three out of four Florida Democrats say it’s “very important” that Florida’s delegates count toward the nomination, and one in four said they would be less likely to support the ultimate Democratic nominee if Florida’s delegates don’t count.

• The state party’s decision to scrap a do-over primary by mail looks wise with fewer than 1 in 10 Democrats saying they considered that the best way to resolve the issue and only one in four saying they would trust a mail-in election to show the will of the people.

The telephone survey of 600 registered Democrats and frequent Florida voters was conducted March 15-17 for the St. Petersburg Times, Bay News 9 and the Miami Herald. The poll was done by Schroth, Eldon & Associates, whose clients primarily are Democrats. The margin of error was plus or minus 4 percentage points.

The poll suggests most Florida Democrats viewed the Jan. 29 primary as a legitimate election.
For instance, only 15 percent of those surveyed said their main interest in voting was the Amendment 1 tax reform initiative, while 43 percent said the Democratic primary was the big draw and 40 percent said both were equally important to them. Likewise, 56 percent of those surveyed said the lack of Florida campaigning by the major candidates had "no effect at all" and 16 percent said it had a "major effect" on their choices.

---Adam Smith

Comments

There is no way the Rep. Castor, Rep. Wexler and other Obama supporters will let the people of Florida help decide the Democratic nominee.

The Obama campaign just shut down the Michigan re-vote when it became clear that Sen. Obama was going to lose there as well.

[Clifford]

The nurse that didn't vote, shame on her. Always vote, regardless of what you assume will be the outcome. Don't punish the voters that turned out to vote in this election, we could have stayed home and not voted but we let our voices be heard. Shame on all of you that didn't vote...lazy, lazy, lazy, excuses, excuses! Accept some responsibility and stopped blaming the system for your failure to vote!

[al]

clifford, who do youthink you are?? Our parent admonishing their child.?? Grow up and mind your own business.

[Rocky]

Rules should not be changed after the fact. The "leaders" knew the consequences for moving the primary - blame your democratic leaders in the state. MI and FL dem leaders should be fired.

Really Rocky?? You mean you would replace a DEM with a Republican, given they way they are responsible for trashing our state and selling our nation to the greedy corporations? All because of this delegate thing? You don't sound much like a Democrat at all, Rocky.

Problem Solved!

4:19 is right. I am an Obama supporter but I voted and it should count. There were other important amendments and local races on the ballot. The people that didnt vote are looking for an excuse. People should ALWAYS vote. Anyone that stays up on politics knew they (Media and politicos) were going to look toward Florida to see who the winner is!

[Mike]

I personally know a good amount of people that didn't vote because they were told it wouldn't hold any weight. That isn't to say shame on them or hold those who did in higher light, just stating a fact. They deemed it an "exercise in futility" and rightfully so.

[Zeni Browncroft]

I will be outraged if my vote doesn't count. I will join a class action law suit against the Florida legislature for allowing this to happen.

The Problem: DNC has terrible rules

The Mistake: Florida broke them, knowing the penalties.

The Solution: TOO DAMN BAD! Maybe you should have addressed the Problem before you made the Mistake!

But don't go and cry and want to change the rules after the game has been played.

"There's no crying in baseball!" ~Jimmy Dugan, Manager of the Rockford Peaches, 1942

[Kris]

I know many people that did not vote in the primary election. They where told by the Dem. party that their vote would not count and they didn't think amendment one affected them since they rented their home. Of course property taxes have an effect on renters as well but that is NOT how the campaign was approached and not what drew out voters.

So you you have a primary vote with landowners potentially holding more weight that the rest of the population. We were told our votes wouldn't count. Some of us, including myself, made the choice to vote anyways--I wanted my voice heard on at least a symbolic level.

I wonder how discouraging the vote of non-landowning citizens would go over in either the Clinton's or Obama's camp. That is basically what was done. How can we even contemplate using those votes? Neither camp wanted our votes before, they made their bed and should have to lie in it.

[rocky]

That is the problem with society. Everyone always wants exceptions to the rules, the rules don't apply to us, what rules??
And wake up - Republicans and Democrats are both for big business - who do you think pays their way. Neither party cares for the little guy. Vote for the best candidate, period.

[Hammer]

"The telephone survey of 600 registered Democrats and frequent Florida voters was conducted..."

FOLLOWED BY...

"But Carly Loiseau, a 29-year-old nurse and Obama supporter in Wesley Chapel, didn’t bother voting in January..."

That should tell you all you need to know as to the integrity of this poll… it’s as meaningless as the Primary itself and is as believable as the fools who caused this mess to begin with (Chuck and the waste of carbon called the Legislature).

It shouldn't count because Hillary, Obama, Edwards, Biden, Richardson, Kucinich and the DNC agreed it wouldn't count. Run a race honestly, where the decks aren't stacked for the person with the highest name ID, and then count the delegates. Doing otherwise is known as cheating AND disfranchisement.

[karma]

Actually,
It was a Republican controlled legislature and executive branch within the state of Florida that voted and changed the primary date, knowing that the DNC would strip the Florida Democratic Party of its delegates. If anyone is to blame, its the DNC and the state Repub's, not state Democrats.

Additionally, knowing that the state dem party would not have delegates being counted, many people who may have taken the time to vote, did not. The same people who, like it or not, are typically called "disenfranchised" by the process -- those who rely on public transportation to get to the polls, or who are unable to take time from work (and if they don't own their home, what's the point of voting on the r.e. tax issue?)

Don't count the delegates. The primary was a sham. Again, Florida is just a tool for Carl Rove.

[rick]

I was an early Richardson and Obama supporter but the more I look at Obama the less I like .He’s just telling us what we want to hear ...100% politician; I have now changed my view on him, I cant have Richardson so I will go for Hillary as Obama’s camp will try like mad to block the Michigan and Florida votes if the Dems national committee will let them count as he lost them both. Obama is looking more like G.W Bush with his bulling and dreaming...Let them count the votes in both primary’s this time with a condition they change for next time around .Haven’t we had enough of our Florida votes not counting.

[Marcel]

Anyone who made a donation to the Democratic National Party MUST call and request they return your money immediately! If that happens I'll bet the DNC will see Florida in a different light. I called this morning and after an hour and a half (literally) they are sending my $100 dontaion back to me. They cannot legally keep the money if your request it be returned.

Karma,
What other conspiracey theories do you have? I guess that the fact that the Dems in the legilature voted for the bill means nothing to you. Obviously, everything is everyone else's fault.
I am tired of this. When I heard about the bill, I contacted as many legislators as I could to let them know I did not like a portion of it.
Quit whining, and start paying attention.

Sorry, But those who didn't vote should have. The DNC Sanction Rules state that the Credentials Committee could (after all the other states primaries, were held) vote to seat all of the delegates for FL & MI.

I knew that, the candidates knew that and the FDP knew that and made statements that all Democrats should go to the polls on Jan. 29th and that they would do all they could to resolve this issue at a later date.

Shame on those "very few" Dems that didn't vote and NOW want to disenfranchise the ones that did vote.

COUNT OUR 1.7 MILLION DEMOCRATIC VOTES FROM JAN. 29TH!

No matter how many points are scored, pre-season games don't count and neither should beauty-contest elections where voters are told going in that their votes won't count.

5:31

if that were the case, the New England Patriots would have actually enetered the Super Bowl at 19-1, losing to my Tampa Bay Buccaneers on August 8th.

[Frank]

They(The State Party)made our choice and broke the rules. Now Florida (Becuase of them)should not be counted!
It's time for us to find new State Leaders....

[Frank]

They(The State Party)made our choice and broke the rules. Now Florida (Becuase of them)should not be counted!
It's time for us to find new State Leaders....

[Justthinking]

The DNC DID NOT Punish New Hampshire for violating the rules and changing its election date so the DNC should NOT be punishing FL or MI! No selective enforcement! FL votes should be counted as done on election day! Obama is NOT truly for the people or change if he seeks to disenfranchise a whole state just because he thinks it will hurt his chances... He should be upholding the PRINCIPLE that ALL votes count!

[tiredofit]

I do not know about Florida voters, but if the Dems nominate Obama without allowing Michigan to re-vote I will definately NOT vote for Obama. I do not think making someone Commander-In-Chief to our troops that has stood by someone that said GD America is showing much respect for the sacrifices our troops have made.

[Melanie]

1.7 million people must count otherwise you will not have them vote and the Democrats who support Obama are a joke. Do you actually think this hater with no experience can win against McCAin.

The bosses are worried a woman knows what she is doing and they are more afraid of a smart women than an inexperienced racist antisemetic package politician.

Grow up

[Omega83]

Melanie,

If that "woman actually "knew what she was doing", she wouldn't have spouted this garbage today:

Clinton: Rate cuts not enough

Asked about reports that the Fed could cut rates today to as low as 2 percent, Clinton said rate cuts aren't enough and that the government needs to intervene more actively in the housing market, freezing interest rates on subprime mortgages, among other actions.

"I do not believe that cutting interest rates to 1 percent… is going to be enough," Clinton said. "If we don’t deal with the home foreclosure crisis, the economy will not recover — I don’t know how I can say that more plainly."

Hillary is scary, and I will do everything I can to make sure she never sniffs the White House.

[Robert]

First, the original idea was to strip Florida of only HALF it's delegation, and that is what the DNC should do. We broke the rules, so we must pay the consequences. That said, the record 1.7 million Florida Democrats who took the time to vote should have their voices heard. He is what I believe is the least expensive, quickest, fairest (best as can be expected under the circumstances), and least intrusive plan to make it happen.

1) As mentioned above, only seat HALF the delegation. Better half than none at all.

2) Use the results from the January 29 primary to determine how many delegates each congressional district is entitled to.

3) That means refiguring the formula to determine which candidate receives how many delegates in each CD. The biggest change: Edwards would likely lose the delegates he won due to the higher threshold required.

4) The FDP would have to schedule new congressional district caucuses to elect delegates based on the revised numbers.

Will everyone be happy? Probably not. But it's a heck of a lot better than sending no delegation at all. And besides, we need to concentrate more on coming together once the primaries and convention is over to support whichever candidate will represent our party in November. Either Obama or Clinton would be better in the White House than McCain.

[ANON]

It's a good thing that I am a 55-year-old American female w/NO heart problems!! That includes high-cholesterol. I am really angry over the blame being put on Howard Dean & the DNC. They followed the Democratic Primary Party Rules. Florida Democrats were scheduled to vote the 1st week of March 2008. Suddenly, it changed near the end of last year. Why? Simple. Charlie Crist/Republicans + their Democratic allies. Why not? Rule of Law?? What's THAT been in the last 8 years???????????!!!!!

[Stephen]

REALLY!?!?!?!?!?!
I use to live in Florida, and let me just say, HOW BOUT NO!
Florida knew the rules about when you could hold the primary, you knew the consequences, and YET still disobeyed them, so NO you don't get the delegates, and maybe this will send the Florida Dems a message about listining, and following the rules! DEAL WITH IT.
Sorry Voters, you party did this to you.

[Al]

Seattle held caucuses where the delegates were given. Obama won handily, but the following week we had a primary. Technically, it "didn't count" but almost 46% of the population voted (less than 2% caucused) and the outcome was pretty much 50-50 for the two candidates. So people vote to have their voices heard, whether or not it counts in delegates, it counts, hopefully, when superdelegates are deciding who will win in the general election--seeing where the support lies. I'm sure that folks in MI and FL also voted to be heard. If the delegates won't be seated, at least the numbers should MATTER!!

[christian]

Democrats weren't going to win Florida anyway. When you have Republican Lawmakers creating this current mess, what do you think they are going to do when it is time to vote?

[mike]

These votes count. One way or another this is going to have an impact on the national election. Florida is a swing state and alienating the voters here is not wise. Us independents will be watching. We outnumber Dems and Repubs combined!

[Jaime]

Votes should count. The party appears as if they work for Obama rather than care about the voters at all? They will surely lose a national election if this the game they are playing. Its time to really open eyes and stop playing favorites and truly assess negatives and positives. It may end up time to draft Al Gore.

[beth]

1. Dean is an idiot. Anyone else would have handled this better.
2. Why have Super delegates if all they are going to do is vote for what the people have already voted. If they are mindless, get rid of them.
3. Please post when Castor runs in the primary so we can vote her out.
4. If Obama beats Clinton, McCain will get our vote.

[gamesmanship]

it's a matter of money- it's extremely expensive to revote. Truth be told, Obama would only benefit from Revotes in Michigan and Florida- Hillary would lose some ground in the total popular vote even if she still carried those states.

Bottom line, Florida republicans stuck it to the Florida DNC by connecting the early vote to a bill mandating voter receipts (in order to prevent a fiasco as in 2000). Seems like it's working.

[Krissy]

How can you say that the Florida primary didn't mean anything to Obama?? He was going by party rules, something that ALL democrat nominees pledged to do.

This is a result of the failure of Florida democratic leadership, not Obama. No matter how badly Hillary's camp would like to suggest that it is, it simply is not factual.

[roncraw]

I'm 74 and voted all my life and every vote to my knowledge counted. If my vote isn't counted this time,it will be the last time I vote.I own my home and did not cast a vote for or against the amendment. And most Fla. voters know Obama ran tv ads prior to the primary.

[Krissy]

WHY ARE PEOPLE BLAMING OBAMA???

He didn't make the rules. He was one of many that took the same pledge: Hillary, Obama, Edwards, Biden, Richardson, and Kucinich.

Are you that persuaded by unfactual information that you actually think this should be blamed on Obama?

[roncraw]

I'm 74 and voted all my life and every vote to my knowledge counted. If my vote isn't counted this time,it will be the last time I vote.I own my home and did not cast a vote for or against the amendment. And most Fla. voters know Obama ran tv ads prior to the primary.

[Feesh]

Think about it people...Guam and Puerto Rico get a vote, but you don't!

This Dem race is more entertaining than a circus..wait..it is one!

[Steve Mangion]

But the democrats are not going to carry Florida, especially with a Republican Governor.
Save the money for the general election and other states that the D's can carry.
PI Steve

[larry]

The Florida Democratic establishment has no one to blame but themselves. You all enabled the GOP legislature to bend you over and now you want the rest of us to say..ahhhh thats ok we will let you pass because you are so very very special..all because you cannot run an election in 2000 and now this. Florida you all want to bolt for McCain...good luck.

[cooday]

Democrats love Florida! We need you!
U2 - Stand By Me ft. Bruce Springsteen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTiFKnLifCU
Vote Obama!

[happytoes]

The democrats knew GOING IN - their vote would NOT count. Why is it up to the Florida taxpayer to foot the bill AGAIN. Doesn't count means DOES NOT COUNT

[Yotinzepol]

The DNC should rule on the side of the people. It shouldn't even take into account the 2 campaigns. Obama or Hillary is not any bigger than the 1.7 million people who voted. The hell with either of them if counting the votes is to his/her disfavor. There's a loser in any contest, right?
And you don't want those who participate in our democracy and exercise their right to vote be the loser. The DNC should be big enough to admit and correct its mistake.
A rule to disenfranchise a block of voters is inherently bad. And bad rules are meant to be broken and that's how you know it's bad because enforcing it is really, really, really BAD.

[Sarasotan]

In the final analysis, what is important is the will of the voters who turned out in record numbers, not who is to blame for this idiocy nor what the candidates agreed to before the Jan 29 election?

10:19

unfortunately the rule was the rule after the fact - and changing it now is just as unfair.

[Mary]

please join our forum and discussions we would love your input from FL.

we have a petition too
at
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/hillaryforpresident/

[JM]

Why is it that the Dems in Florida can never get an election right.They knew what the rules were but yet they insisted on breaking them.Now they have to live with it PERIOD!!!End of story.It seems like every election the Dems have a problem if things don't go their way.From hanging chads to it was the machines fault and no paper trail so we need new machines.All this at taxpayer expense.When does it stop.They can blame the Rep. or whoever nut the bottom line is they screwed up.I am sick of hearing it and the courts should throw out these lawsuits.

[Bill Nichols]

"But the democrats are not going to carry Florida, especially with a Republican Governor.
"Save the money for the general election and other states that the D's can carry."

Don't necessarily bet on it; while "90% of all politics is local," believe someone who's been an observer of FL politics since the 50's. November is by no means a lock for the GOP. While the DNC pulled a *real* el dumbo by punishing their own party for the actions of the GOP-controlled legislature & state house, there is a lot, & I do mean a LOT of very bad anti-GOP blood in FL. Absent another set of Machivellian antics by the GOP machine, look for a *very* engaged Democratic electorate in the Sunshine State tis fall.