Lawmakers continue evolution debate

This week's private screening of a controversial evolution documentary by pop culture icon Ben Stein was a subdued affair, with a handful of lawmakers, including Tampa Rep. Kevin Ambler, attending the downtown event and no protesters showing up.

But a short walk away in the Capitol, Brandon Sen. Ronda Storms and fellow Republican Rep. Alan Hays are proposing legislation that promises to keep alive the evolution vs. creationism debate that engulfed the State Board of Education in recent months. Read it here.

Comments

insert terminator's/rambo's/ernest's/ or whatever goofball 80's nickname's comment...now

STOP WASTING OUR TIME AND MONEY DIVERTING ATTENTION AWAY FROM YOUR FAILURES TO HONOR YOUR CAMPAIGN PROMISES!

FIX INSURANCE NOW!

[Flagophile]

Unbelievable!

i am sick and tired of people who are so ignorant that they dont understand that SCIENCE and THEOLOGY doNOT compete.

got that?

SCIENCE and THEOLOGY doNOT COMPETE!!

instead, these people babblle on and on and on and on about ridiculous things like "interspeciesevolution".

i guess thats easier for their limited "brains" than seeking out a good book or two wherein they will learn about the history of science and the history of holy scripture.

THEY DONT COMPETE!!

in the simplist terms for your "brain", one explains "how" the other tells stories about "why".

get a good bible and read the preface and introductions to each document.

you just might learn something about how the hebrew scriptures took form over a periond of about 1,500 years.

who were the "writers" of those various documents?

who were the "editors"?

what influenced those "writers"?

when were those documents "written"

how were those documents compiled into the "old testament"

what forms of literature are represented in those documents?

and on and on and on

yes, get a good bible, maybe the NRSV, and a good commentary and then

YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING, FOR GOD'S SAKE!!

most especially, science and theology doNOT compete.

both are "correct" as far as their respecitve roles allow!

can all of the frequent buzz "posters" pass the hat so we can get 10:38's caps lock key fixed?

[moderate]

There really is quite a bit of irony in the headline to this thread, due to some lawmakers failure to evolve into rational adults.

11:21 - dude tell me about it! friggin loser pounces onto this blog just to cut and paste the same message over and over - it's one thing to be a blog loser that comments on every topic like terminator/knight rider/whoever it is - but it's a whole other level of loserhood to comment on every topic with the same caps lock cut and paste message

... IT'S EVEN A BIGGER LOSER WHO ENGAGES IN A DEBATE OVER THE USE OF CAPS LOCK!

... putz

Hey Ronda and Alan,

We know this is just a trojan horse. Why don't you pass laws that state science class can only teach "bible science"...i.e. that dinosaurs didn't exist or that the earth is 8,000 years old. This is just sad and ignorant.

11:30 - HAH! nice try loser - i'm actually glad there's idiots like you blogging here - makes me feel better that you're here and not in the military overseas where you could do some real damage

11:37, trojan horses are the only trojans they support.

11:37 - HAH! nice try putz - i'm actually glad there are simps like you blogging here - makes me feel better that you're here and not in some public bathroom with a fist full of twenties.

"11:37, trojan horses are the only trojans they support."

BRILLIANT! … in a third grade kind of way.

11:56 - wow - gotta sponge off my comment do ya - but that's what you brainless limp-spined "progressives" do so i'm not too surprised

you not only cut and paste you're own caps-locked phrase onto every topic, but you copy and paste other people's comments too - you're not much for original thinking are you - oh right forgot - you "progressives" don't do much if any thinking at all

If teachers don't teach that science is always open to revision--that the inferences made from observations of natural phenomena are always conditional and open to modification, then the failure is in how we select and train the teachers.

Instead of mandating WHAT science is--a perfectly anti-scientific activity for a legislature, the legislature would do better to ensure that underpaid, under-appreciated teachers are better supported. That is a proper function for a legislature.

Orthodoxies are the very death of science. There should be no need, legislatively mandated or otherwise, to force science to comport with anybodies' "authoritative" religious texts.

Nothing could pass this nation into to second class status as quick as turning our back on open scientific inquiry in favor of accommodating religious faiths.

Anybody who sees science as a threat to their religion doesn't understand the former and has pretty fragile version of the latter.

I think that last paragraph pretty well sums up Rhonda Storms, except--of course, for large part of her make-up that is self-promoting self-interest.

There are always politicians ready to pander to the wrong-minded in a democracy; and we are all wrong-minded in one way or another, at one time or another. But Rhonda Storms is a champion among the kind politician who prey on those with too much self-certainty to be healthy for democracy.

Simpy put, if you think God is whispering the answer to every social and political question in your ear, you are a nut!

Third grade is about the level we get with the state lege, Ronda, and the intelligent designers crowd

[Dee]

I recognize that some of you involved in this debate are very intelligent people even if I disagree with you to a certain extent.

Why don't you pressure schools to teach Comparative Religion classes so that details of different Religions, including creationism, can be taught and examined?

Once that occurs teaching evolution in science class would not be seen as merely promoting Darwinism which many view as the State Religion of Communists and Fascists.

As members of a free society we owe it to our children to educate them. Indoctrination and preventing full examination and debate of academic subjects is not a productive and enduring educational approach.

Both evolution and creationism need to be taught, the debate should be about in which class not which to exclude.

Wonderful: this is what the legislature is doing: 1) but crack legislation; 2) cracker horse legislation; 3) evolution.

All the while, the actuary for Citizen's Insurance just admitted to Rep. Don Brown that it is not actuarily sound.

12:50 and yet we still have Rubio and the 1.35%ers who want to further cut tax revenue and give a big tax break to their wealthy developer friends. How irresponsible can you get??

[Noneya]

Dee... When ANYONE can "Test and Prove" Creationism... as has been done with Evolution , making it an actual "Scientific Theory." Then I may allow my children to be taught it in Science class. But NO ONE has ever been able to EVEN TEST it! HELLO

"Don't Preach in our Schools and
we won't Think in you Churches."

[Flagophile]

This entire debate is preposterous. Most of the arguments have been discussed above.

I think a critical one has been overlooked: I attended Catholic school from kindergarten through 12th grade. In science courses such as physics, biology, and chemistry, I learned about evolution, biology, and the "Big Bang Theory," amongst other things.

I learned the story of Creation in religion class, exclusively. Not once was creation or intelligent design discussed in science class.

It shouldn't be any different in the public schools.

[Buzzard]

1:44 - I believe in evolution just like you, at least to some degree. But it's a theory. The new law wants to treat it as fact. And since it has been codified - as a dogma. Everything was fine until that started. Even Christian schools taught the THEORY of evolution as you'll see from postings here.

Just exactly how many public schools in Florida teach a class on theology - thus an appropriate forum for intelligent design?

Would it then be in history class? Humanities? (don't remember that being offered either)

just how does Sen. Storms propose to allow an appropriate forum? Do we need to hire more theology teachers? Construct more classroom space? take time away from FCAT core subjects? test theology on the FCAT? What?

if it walks liek a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a...pterodactyl that evolved into a duck

"1:44 - I believe in evolution just like you, at least to some degree. But it's a theory. "

STUPID!!

a THEORY is one step removed from a LAW, in science!

use a damned dictionary if you want to engage in intelligent discussion!!

"it ONLY a theory." is an ignorant thing to say.

PERIOD!!!!

In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. This usage of theory leads to the common incorrect statements. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them.

we are speaking of THEORY in terms of science, 5.00, not "i have a hunch", common usage.

a major problem arises when numbnutzz endeavor to frame the discussion in NON-scientific terms.

it is NOT einstein's "hunch" of relativity, it is einstein THEORY of relativity.

got that?

stupid!!

hey, dee............

lets debate:

1+1=2

or

1+1= [open to debate]

which is it, sweetie?

you cant have it both ways!!

math it math
science is science
i.d is non-science b.s.

[Zhombre]

Evolution is a fact of nature. As is its opposite, devolution, which is perfectly evident from the quality of comments displayed on a typical Buzz thread.

12:19
"Anybody who sees science as a threat to their religion doesn't understand the former and has pretty fragile version of the latter."

In all of the millions of words which have been spoken and written and debated with prejudice on both sides, your words have the clean, clear ring of truth. Well done.

[Dee]

Sad how some of you such anti-Christian crusaders.

But it is a good thing that more and more people are being exposed to the intolerance and hatred that those like some of you espouse.

Hey; there's my mom... the catfish!

... putz

[Chris W]

Dee, as long as people reading this are also exposed to IDer's whiny special pleading and knot-headed creationist "logic" it's a fair trade.

1:44 you don't know what the heck you are talking about...The Theory of Evolution has not, and can not be, tested and proven...it is a theory. There is no scientific explanation for how life began...or how the universe began...all scientific THEORY makes certain assumptions and in no way explains our origin...even the Big Bang Theory assumes matter existed before the alleged "bang" of matter colliding and supposedly creating the universe....

Looks like the faith-based initiative has given enough money to the sheeple so they now have the power to make the sun go around the earth once again.

[zenator]

In terms of the theory of intelligent design, there is a really funny spoof in the form of the the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster found ar venganza.org.

[Issywise]

12:48

You suggest teaching creationism in a comparative religions class because, "Both evolution and creationism need to be taught."

Since you concede that creationism isn't science and shouldn't be taught in science classrooms, why does it still "need to be taught?"

Is it because it is your religion? Is that what public schools are about?

You mention that "[M}any view [Darwinism] as the State Religion of Communists and Fascists." Is that a reason to teach their religion in public schools as a balancing cure?

Those who view Darwinism as as a religion don't understand it. Those who think Darwinism has something to do with communism and fascism are nut cases!

Actually, most of the people opposed to Darwinism been whipped up into a fury by ignorant preachers who are offended that science contradicts the Biblical account of creation.

If Genesis is correct then not only biology is a state religion, but particle physics is also a state religion as is archeology and physical anthropology--scientific disciplines all with findings that contradict the Genesis version of creation.

Once we start adding classes or mandating subject matter content to accommodate the "Many who view...." where does it end?

Moreover, what about the 1st Amendment. Who decides whose religious views are entitled to class time?

[zenator]

Issywise:

The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster provides a single, satisfying answer to the many questions that you pose: all results from the hidden operation of His Noodly Appendage.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ..."

Hmmm ... sounds like Intelligent Design to me. It is not science, but it is a valid philosophical argument, and one I might add is foundational to the establishment of the country, regardless of what anti-religious bigots like Chris W. might say.

10:44

that was written in 1776. Darwin wasn't even born until 1809 you a_ss

Then the statement is no longer operative?

[Issywise]

10:44

Does the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence mention of a creator prove every scientific notion you might fix on? Is it a specific endorsement of Genesis or any other religious text?

The founding documents include the 1st Amendment which prevents you from using the government to impose your religious views on me disguised as science.

The founders were men of both reason and faith. They knew that mixing religion and and politics is like mixing salt and water--you always end up losing the former and ruining the latter.

Your preachers would do better to stick to shepherding souls rather than acting as Mullah's overseeing the government and schools. They are turning their backs on their real job to descend into being mere ward bosses.

Nope, your attempt to make religion as science a national value ain't getting out of the gate. Examine the issue yourself---don't just "believe." Democracy demands more of us--we have believe with our eyes open.

[10:44]

Issywise, you read things into what I say that I did not say. I was merely trying to point out the foundational document of the nation posits a Creator from whom human rights originate. That is not science. That is not religion in any formal sense. I said as much. I do not seek to impose any religious views on you or anyone else, am not a regular churchgoer, don't believe in Creation Science and accept evolution as self evident. The only point I wish to make is that Intelligent Design as an idea has some merit and history and should not be denigrated as mere superstition. You need not be so defensive, Issy. It reflects badly on you.

Research the history of public schools in this country. Why they came to be will no doubt make Issy go into a tizzy.

[Dee]

Good stuff Issy. You really went out of your way to demonstrate how unreasonable you are.

Unfortunately, the end result of those who think like you will be children who are not educated in a manner that prepares them for the world in which they will have to live and compete. Have you not heard of the global economy we are a part of? What about our increasing cultural diversity in this country as well as technology shrinking the size of the globe.

I advocate comparative religion classes, not indoctrination sessions. To teach such a course one has to examine Creationism.

The point is not whether I concede Creationism should or should not be taught in science class. The point to be made is properly educating the children and cutting to the chase about those like you who merely want to indoctrinate.

The fact that I see examining Creationism in a Comparative Religion class and Evolution in a Biology class should be read as addressing the issue in a way that respects others and the academic setting. You on the other hand want to censure and that is not only un-American but is dangerous.

Soon you and other Darwinists will want to hold a book burning. Sad.

[Clyde]

Ignorance. bigotry and intellectual arrogance are alive and well in Florida.