Finally, the 'tax swap' headed for ballot

[TBRC member Les Miller of Tampa congratulates John McKay after passage of the plan. Times photo |Scott Keeler]

By a 18-7 vote, the TBRC just approved the "tax swap" to eliminate most school property taxes for a higher sales tax and other revenue sources.

The plan, which would cut property taxes by an estimated 25 percent, now goes before voters in November. It needs 60 percent approval and then the Legislature would have to come up with a way to replace $9-billion more in lost property tax revenue for schools -- a feat critics says is impossible without imposing a services tax.

The outcome seemed to hinge on some trading, chiefly swap proponent John McKay throwing his backing behind a voucher plan that will be voted on tomorrow.

"We need to let the people of Florida decide this issue for themselves," said Taxation and Budget Reform Commission member Carlos Lacasa. "They know what the stakes are. And they also know what the benefits are."

"It's so easy to do nothing and just go along and hope things are going to change and get better," added commissioner Jim Scott. "This is a very significant thing this commission can do."

But critics lashed out as the plan putting school funding and the economy in trouble, with a higher sales tax and possibly a services tax. "I am concerned we are about to do something and put it in our constitution that is going to wreck our economy," commissioner Randy Miller said. "This is just not a well founded proposal. I have said that time and time again. .. This is a bad, bad proposal."

Darryl Rouson said people who opposed the plan, or like Mike Hogan and Susan Story, changed their earlier vote "Reminds me of buyer's remorse and to some extent, sour grapes."

He added, "Some votes are significant, some stands are important, some things you have to do for principle and not for retaliation or vendetta because something you wanted did not" get on the ballot.

The plan also includes a 5 percent cap for nonhomestead property, lowering the 10 percent cap that was enacted in January under Amendment 1.

In an interview, McKay denied his 180-degree turn on vouchers was intended to shore up support for the swap. Rather, he said he had a recent talk with voucher guru John Kirtley.

"I think I had a misunderstand of what was before us. I know I had a misunderstand. So I'm more comfortable with it than I was ... Nobody has been a bigger proponent in this Legislature than me."

Comments

and there was much rejoicing!

nod to Month Python, Holy Grail

Randy Miller and many others had the opportunity to support true tax reform.

Instead they all supported Amendment 1.

You reap what you sow.

Guess Hari is going to have to do some real work - IF HE BECOMES SENATE PRESIDENT...

Here is some advice - if you don't want to increase taxes - why not try cutting spending?

[Truth]

As usual, the brilliance of Floriduuuuh politicians. Yes; base your education system on lotto scam and a sales tax during a recession.

Hey how about this; Let’s plant a bunch of trees and throw down a bunch of sod in the middle of a desert during a drought! Now that a-thinkin, aye boys! What a bunch of freaking morons!

This has got to be the most incompetent, immoral, useless, corrupt bunch of political hacks we have EVER seen here in Florida. For the first time in my life, I am absolutely ashamed of our State leadership (and I use that term very, very, very lightly).

Remember boys and gals, you’ve got to have goals… and ours is 50th in the Nation in Education… and we’ll make damn sure we reach it too.

[Ashley]

There has to be a radical change in the whole system either way! The way property values have decreased means much less revenue collected in the years to come. This downturn will be felt in the next few years.

[J]

Please dont misunderstand me, we need tax relief and government needs to diet but this aint the way to do it.

This is a very bad idea that will hamstring Florida for the next 50 years if it passes. The masses will only see the 25% drop in property taxes, thus it will pass with 65-70% approval. Their do not see the looming cavernous holes that this will create in the budget nor do they care to see.

This year was bad, 2011 was be 25% worse.

"Please dont misunderstand me, we need tax relief and government needs to diet but this aint the way to do it."

I could not agree with you more, J.

Well put.

[Donald Lance]

2:49. Top-dead-center on that. I've been trying to inform people that they will save today with the new swap, but they will pay more over time with the swap. But people are only concerned about today. They don't want to pay their bill today and would rather take a "Late Fee" down the road. It's that same reasoning as to why the U.S. is the largest debtor nation. People will vote for it because it reduces their tax burden today, but they fail to see that it is the govt that should cut spending. This is just the govt's way of picking their own fights. You'll hear "Whoa is us" coming from Tally. But when you base your revenue on the unknown, youre really digging a hole. Throw any hypothetical into this tax swap scenario. I'll give you one: A 9/11 event all over again. Do you think Pierre is going to be able to fly from France to pay sales tax for our state budget? What if transpo becomes so expensive that Pierre would rather go to Spain for vacation vs. Mickey Town? You see, nobody knows what the future holds, but we are going to adjust the way we collect revenue from a solid foundation to a pie in the sky? You are right to make that point.

[Bob]

Might as well get something in return for increased sales tax, because it is going to go up sooner or later anyway. Something right or wrong, enough or not enough is better than nothing. They should raise sales tax across the board and eliminate real estate taxes all together. The current real estate tax system is a joke and will only continue to stop baby boomers from moving here. Next-door Neighbors cant not have tax bills that are thousands of dollars apart for identical properties.

[uncle skeeter]

hi there.....again. here we go again but now this is in the right direction. i was just sitting here wondering if uncle charlie will go ahead and push for this one like he did with amendment1 ? let's make wagers that he will NOT fight for this one till the end because it will help too many floridians have a better life in florida.....as they should. all these people moving out of florida are the very ones that voted for charlie and A1 thinking that he was going to keep his promise and make a big change,which it didn't.

[Don Mott]

This group meets once every twenty years and the bankrupting of Floridas education is the best they can do? One word, DISGUSTING!

Our children will hate us if we pass this, and rightly so.

[Rich]

What?? Base their revenue on an unknown?? You mean like every citizen in this state does?

So the recession should only hurt the people and hold the tax collectors harmless?

Guess what if the people are hurting, they are spending less. If that's the case then maybe the governemnt needs to feel the pinch too.

And how is this a cut now but an increase in the future? This cuts property taxes by 25% a year, every year.

The median home price in Florida is $200k. Subtract $25k for homestead. Property tax on that is approx. $4,200 per year(2.4 mil). You would save $1,050 a year if this passes. You would have to spend $105,000 a year just to pay the same amount in taxes.

Any homeowner or renter in this state would be crazy to vote no on this. Let them raise service taxes to make up the difference. The retail lobby has had so much control over this governemnt for too long. Time for the people to take it back.

Bill Miller can go back to his lobby job with the Retail Federation.

[BateauBuilder]

Since our economy is based on comsuming and consumers - why not have a tax system based on the same. Those that consume more, pay more.

BB

[Rich]

Man I hope the sheeple don't fall for all the negative advertsing the Retail lobby will do against this. Funny how everyone is against big business but will actually support their cause when fear is spun in the retail industries favor.

Simple math.

I bet Disney alone will spend $1M to make people believe that homeowners need to pay all the tax, that the schools will suffer if we don't and that the retailers and service industry would all go bankrupt if they actually had to pay 1% more on sales.

Hey, this might not be the end-all-be-all, but if it highlights the need for a cap of some sort, be it through citizen initiative or the legislature actually wakes up on the issue, then so be it...

If it gets as bad as all the nay sayers are predicting, the only people to blame will be those in power who choose not to address the issue.

[Carol]

If I could, I'd shake your hand, Rich. You have it exactly right. Folks are all up in arms at the thought of a sales tax increase, but are failing to realize how much stuff they'd have to buy to end up paying more in increased sales tax than they will save on property tax. Do the math, people. Beyond that, I'm tired of the opponents threatening that the real estate tax cut will hurt our children's education - enough with the scare tactics. We all know throwing more money at a problem doesn't fix it. Bottom line - hold all of Florida's government, school's included, accountable for their spending of our money.

Send the public servants back to their desks and have them create their budgets from zero base.

[wrongtalker]

As this proposed amendment fails to address only one issue, it will be ruled as unconstitutional by Florida Supreme Court.

[k faye]

For most of us, paying sales tax on groceries or drugs would be tolerable, but for those on SSI or other disability entitlements, it will cost them too much. Most are barely making it on what they get, add another 6%-10% on expenses and they are floundering. This is a painful regressive tax on the poor.

BANG-O-RANG, 3:55!

k faye

groceries and drugs remain exempt from the sales tax. As they are now. Care to try again with the facts?

[Rich]

k

Drugs and food are exempt from sales taxes but I bet the houses those poor people live in aren't. They would be better off paying less in property taxes just like the rest of us.

I'm sure the whole regressive tax myth of the retail industry will rear it's ugly head again.

Poor people pay a greater share of their income on housing therefore more of their income goes to pay property taxes(renters pay too because landlords just pass it on). Neccessities aren't taxed (food and medicine).

Please don't believe the retail industries spin. It's time homeowners and renters get some relief and retailers pay 1% more.

one can only hope that 355 and 357 do not have law degrees- yet apparently the inclination to opine on an unknown subject still exists. Single subject does not apply to tbrc proposals

[Tom]

Senator Haridopolos, similar to the approach taken in 1994 when John McKay was in the Senate and the Legislature subjected Dry Cleaners to Gross Receipts Tax, why not create a statute to subject Brokerage fees, Realtor Commissions and Stock Broker commissions to the Gross Receipts Tax? It is my understanding the TBRC hid in its' recommendation that these fees would be exempt from Service(s) tax, but it is also my understanding that there is no mention that this stream of income will be exempt from Gross Receipts Tax! Go for it Senator. Make my day!

[J]

Please dont misunderstand me, we need tax relief and government needs to diet but this aint the way to do it.

This is a very bad idea that will hamstring Florida for the next 50 years if it passes. The masses will only see the 25% drop in property taxes, thus it will pass with 65-70% approval. They do not see the looming cavernous holes that this will create in the budget nor do they care to see.

This year was bad, 2011 was be 25% worse.

Are we going to replace for schools dollar for dollar the lost revenue? If so, I would lean to supporting the amendment even though sales taxes are much less stable than property taxes. However, the RLE is worth about $9.5 billion for the schools next year and a penny of sales tax is currently worth about $4 billion. If you are asking me to cut over $5.5 billion (or any amount at all) from our schools, I WILL VOTE NO ON THIS AMENDMENT. Becauase I do not believe that there is any intention of actually raising what is given away, I am quite sure that my vote will fall that way.

McKay should be ashamed of himself but not just for today.

Landlords don't just pass it on. A rental unit will only attract a tenant if it is affordable. The property hikes of the incompetent county officials would mean rents jumping $35/month on small units in run down areas, and on average $124 for the better units in the Feathersound area.

Why do you think there is a glut of income property on the market? They cannot even pay for themselves, let alone generate investment income.

People buying property are doing so for their future, as we've all seen how poor stockmarket and company pensions actually perform.

4:11, you're forgetting government "affordable housing" subsidies… at taxpayer expense. It’s a double-edged sword.

[Rich]

4:10

Let's see what they come up with to plug the gap before deciding. Closing some of the service tax loopholes would cover the difference.

Governemnt needs to learn how to budget just like it's citizens. How can they possibly be having budget problems after such a huge real estate boom? Shouldn't they save some when times are good just like most of us should?

Sales taxes are a direct reflection of how the citizens are living. When things are good, receipts are higher. When people spend less, receipts go down and the government has to tighten their belts just like every other business or citizen.

End Corporate Welfare (CXS), cut wasteful spending, eliminate pork projects, no more “special” jobs for family members, stop earmarks, cap taxes and spending, eradicate lobbyists, and vote every incumbent out of office at our first available opportunity.

Problem Solved!

[Rich]

4:11,

New landlords are having a difficult time passing them on now because their properties aren't homesteaded. Many of the speculators who thought real estate investing was the place to be in 2005 have realized that they should have looked at the math. Rents wouldn't even cover a mortgage let alone taxes and insurance. Bad investment on their part but they should have looked at the math.

If there was truly any concern from Randy Miller regarding what is going to be put in the state constitution, maybe that concern should have been expressed and considered years ago when people were stupid enough to put SOH and other taxation items IN THE CONSTITUTION TO BEGIN WITH!!!! Idiots. If people are smart, they will pass this and ignore the lobbyists and pundits who are screaming that the end is near. I have to live within my means during bad times and good. They can do it too. No sympathy here.

John McKay should go back to the Senate. He is missed.

The real beauty of all this clusterf_ck is… every one of these monkey-sticks will campaign on “Hey; you asked for and we delivered”… and they’ll win!

There a reason they call us Floriduuuuuuh!

… pathetic ignoramuses

[solaris]

Drugs and food are exempt from sales taxes but I bet the houses those poor people live in aren't. They would be better off paying less in property taxes just like the rest of us.

I'm sure the whole regressive tax myth of the retail industry will rear it's ugly head again.

Poor people pay a greater share of their income on housing therefore more of their income goes to pay property taxes(renters pay too because landlords just pass it on). Neccessities aren't taxed (food and medicine).

Please don't believe the retail industries spin. It's time homeowners and renters get some relief and retailers pay 1% more.

Posted by: Rich | April 24, 2008 at 04:06 PM

Not for long, "Rich," as soon as this passes you better believe they'll be adding sales tax to EVERYTHING under the sun. And I'd much rather pay property taxes and be able to deduct that from my federal tax instead of sales tax which may or may not remain deductible. How about making some businesses pay some taxes for a change? We allow all these folks in with empty promises then they pick up and leave after not paying taxes for YEARS! See Nielsen, et al.

Right on Rich you hit that one out of the park.

We are going to see the lobbyist on board here in a major way about this issue because they have nowhere else to go since doors all around Tally just slamed shut on them.

Those needing to get elected or reelected are not going to campaign against this tax reform.

The tax the other guy behind the tree and redistribute it to me crowd like the Chamber of Commmerce, Teachers Union and Randy Miller's grand group of nik-nakers just became posion tasters for King Crist.

Considering that the prospect of saving an average of $240 and putting the brakes on local government spending garnered over 65% of the vote a few months ago it is as good as done that the swap plan will gain a higher level of support because it will save folks even more and put the brakes on state government spending!!! I even know democrats who want to cut their property tax bill and get the rich special interest lawyers, luxury box patrons and charter fisherman to help pay the way.

Florida is on the come back!!!

[solaris]

Governemnt needs to learn how to budget just like it's citizens. How can they possibly be having budget problems after such a huge real estate boom? Shouldn't they save some when times are good just like most of us should?

Sales taxes are a direct reflection of how the citizens are living. When things are good, receipts are higher. When people spend less, receipts go down and the government has to tighten their belts just like every other business or citizen.

Posted by: Rich | April 24, 2008 at 04:20 PM

LOL!!!!!! With an average amount of 8 thousand dollars of credit card debt for EVERY household in the United States I daresay that the citizens have NOT learned how to budget.

Sorry, I'm with Rich. He's right on the money on this one. As for services and other items, tax them. If the accountants and lawyers want to leave the state because they have to file for sales taxes, bye bye. What about the internet tax? Perfect opportunity and the lobbyists and special interests killed it. Oh, and hey, those corporate taxes? Hello???? The dwindling middle class can't keep shouldering the burden of everything by increasing property taxes. Additionally, even once your mortgage is paid off, you never truly own your property because of property taxes. Tell me, how fair is that? Eliminate property taxes and I'll gladly pay a sales tax. At least what I buy IS MINE and can't be ripped away from me by the government!!!

Donald Lance,

Do you honestly believe that tourists will stop coming because of a penny increase in sales tax? If they really want to see Mickey, I doubt it will stop them. I couldn't agree more that the government needs to cut spending. It seems this may force them to do this. Amendment 1 was a terrible idea -- it failed to give relief to those needing it most and allowed longtime homeowners to continue to shelter disporpotionate amounts of the value of their homes even when they moved, and continued to shift the burden to new and recent buyers and non-homestead owners.

Bottomline, new and recent buyers are in desperate need of property tax relief. If not this plan, then what would be a better plan?

Rich,

While I will support this plan, it is not the retailers who will pay one penny more -- it's the consumers. The retailers only collect the tax and then pay it to the state.

In regards to taxing services, I believe many businesses would fold if we did. Why? If you taxed accounting services, for example, one could retain the services of a non-Florida accounting firm and avoid paying the tax.

But I thought everyone wanted TAX RELEIF!

What a bunch of minions. I mean, seriously, you guys crack me up! Hey; here’s a thought… why don’t we put a tax on funeral caskets to pay for Medicare!

… here lemmings, lemmings, lemmings… here lemmings, lemmings, lemmings…

yes 4:11, he should be ashamed of creating vouchers for 20,000 disabled children to give them a chance in life.

And all that caring about property tax relief and the future of our state? the guy's got a lot of nerve.

it's an outrage!

[Donald Lance]

What I am saying is that in the event of an unforseen circumstance (say another 9/11 episode) how are tourists going to get here to spend money? How much revenue do you think the state collected during the days following 9/11? Granted, that's an extreme, but the reality is you put the budget in the hands of events that are totally out of control of the taxpayer. What is going to happen when the budget is $9 bill short in 2012? Better yet, what will the govt do? I'd rather pay the piper now vs. paying him more later. Look at the extremes both ways. It's about risk and risk aversion. TABOR said it's in the hands of the people now, and I know the govt is going to be laughing the loudest last with this.

[Donald Lance]

By the way, all those in favor of the tax swap should do research on what happened in other states that implemented this. Let me be crystal clear - govt will NEVER give up revenue. You WILL pay one way or another.

[Tom]

This is one form of tax relief that is going to bite most of us in a big way! The state and local governments already started increasing fees and soon the state and local governments will have to increase sales and use taxes. Only the snowbirds and multiple property owners are going to laugh their way to the bank, the regular family man and small business owners are going to be hurt.

[Ron]

Perhaps our officials will see that when the people vote to lower taxes, it DOES NOT mean that we want our government to find other ways to steal our money. It means that we want our officials to find ways to get by with less money. it means that we should not pay outrageous salaries to our officials. It means that all areas of our government needs to cut back.
For years our officials have been throwing money at our educational system, with no improvements. Perhaps now they will start to realize that money doesn't buy an educational system that works. The system itself is broke, and no amount of money will repair that. There has been way too much waste in our government, and education is just part of it. I will definitely vote for ANY reduction in our taxes because for a long long time, our government has been taking much more than they needed.

[Houston]

Higher sale tax to hit the poor

[Tom]

Don Lance there are a couple contributors out there that think they are not going to be subjected to the increases in taxes and fees! I think they are living in lolla land. Government has to have money to function and will increase taxes and fees until it has enough money to continue to do business. The increase in fees has already started in the Court system (license tags, drivers license renewals, Internet record Search all went up) and unfortunately these fees are not Federal Income tax deductible.