Florida legislators are driven by a fear of taxes

It's the ultimate taboo in Tallahassee. The T-word. Taxes.

Gov. Charlie Crist and his fellow Republican lawmakers would rather discuss just about anything else. A mind-set grips the Capitol that cutting spending is the only way to manage an epic downturn in revenue, "no matter the consequences," as one veteran lobbyist put it this week.

Budgets headed to the House and Senate floor next week reflect a $5-billion drop in spending from this year to next. That means less money for school students, foster children, pregnant women, newborn infants, kids with AIDS, frail seniors and hospice patients.

But budget knife-wielding Republicans view themselves as the embodiment of fiscal responsibility. (story here)

Comments

Hey, look, our terrible policy of giving money away to the rich has run our state into the hole. Now you need to punish us. Please slash you own services and education, that will really be a punishment to us. And oh yeah, don't forget those "Drunken Sailor" regulatory agencies that have stopped our corporate buddies from polluting and paving over the state - they need some punishmentment too.

Only fools think raising taxes will help. Intelligent management would be to cut taxes, which would stimulate the Florida economy like nothing else ever could, and provide jobs for people. Over and over again the democrats propose to raise taxes which would make a bad problem much, much worse. They and their enablers at the St Pete Times are just as intelligence-challenged about taxes. It doesn't even make for a good sound-bite anymore. Raising taxes=worse economy

We need tax reform - eliminate fatcat sales tax exemptions. Increase the sales tax on cigarettes to $1.00 a pack. Reinstate the beverage surcharge.

We need legislative reform - reduce member salaries to 2/12ths of the average state employee's salary. Make them pay for their health and dental insurance. Reduce their retirement to 2/12ths of an average part-time state employee's. Make them ineligible to be hired for any university or agency position for which they do not qualify for by education and training, and, prohibit them from being hired at more than 10% above base for the position they are being hired to fill.

We need tax reform - eliminate fatcat sales tax exemptions. Increase the sales tax on cigarettes to $1.00 a pack. Reinstate the beverage surcharge.

We need legislative reform - reduce member salaries to 2/12ths of the average state employee's salary. Make them pay for their health and dental insurance. Reduce their retirement to 2/12ths of an average part-time state employee's. Make them ineligible to be hired for any university or agency position for which they do not qualify for by education and training, and, prohibit them from being hired at more than 10% above base for the position they are being hired to fill.

You cannot tax your way into prosperity. The Legislature is doing the right thing by holding the line on spending when the budget is tight.

12:37 and 8:13
you ignore history at you peril. Get someone to explain it to you.

12:37 and 8:13
you ignore history at your peril. Get someone to explain it to you.

12:37 and 8:13
you ignore history at your peril. Get someone to explain it to you.

VLT's will raise the money needed to plug the much needed holes without growing government to big.

If legislators and their staff stayed in Talahassee a few weekends and worked on Fridays and Mondays, think of all the travel money saved.
It's probably enough to help pay for some of these services they've cut.

Republicans refuse to raise taxes on their corporate buddies even if it will cost the average person a fortune, It may be dumb, but it is their swan song.

9:13
Actually, the more they're here, the poorer you will be.

[cynical idealist]

How about this....

a constitutional amendment that says Florida will tax and spend at the average rate of the other 49 states. Nah, we can't do that, it'd move us from the bottom of every list and prevent us from competing with Mississippi for last place.

Thanks, Republicans, you were the only ones complaining about the taxes before you took over. Now that you've given away tax cuts to your corporate master like a bunch of drunken sailors, you're catching hell from the people for not providing the services they want and need...

As the economy goes down, there are greater demands for gov. services, and crime goes up---that's basic, 101-level fact. They'd save money--and lives---by keeping and improving those services.
But that requires long-term thinking--silly me---beyond the next electionn.
Why not at least put a cig tax up for a vote? Voters in very conservative Repub. areas have OK'd a number of tax hikes in the last couple years for good reasons.
The legis. might find it's not as bad as they say.

No matter how tough the times are there's always plenty of money for the Speaker's pork: Magic City Children's Zone

Lay off those child protection workers, cut back on foster care, cut education, just make sure there is plenty left for the Speaker's pork project!!!!

Yes, this from the man who would be Governor!

How come those Republicans didn't care about taxes year after year when they were increasing the property tax BY BILLIONS, but as soon as the conversation shifts to a tax on cigarettes or forcing multi-state corporations to pay the same corporate income tax that Florida businesses pay, they freeze up.

Must be because their number one concern is protecting the biggest companies in the world, including the tobacco companies, rather than helping middle class families.

9:49, More Byrd-esque leadership.

[Omega83]

well at least this Legislature gets the concept that you can't keep spending without bringing in more revenue.

Too bad we can't turn the clock back 6 years on the President and Congress and teach them the same.

10:59, Don't give them too much credit. They are required by law to balance the budget. I am sure that if the constitution allowed it, they too would be borrow and spend Republicans.

[Tom]

What amazes me is the eight hundred pound gorilla in the room is SOH's which caused this downturn thru inequitable tax distribution. The elected officials did nothing but make it worse by Amendment #1! And now it's all but forgotten??????

Why must you cut back on services that will pull at the heart strings of our citizens? I'm sick of these threats to create opposition to much needed tax relief. Cut back on the waste and stop spending on things we can live without.

Tom. You're absolutely correct. Portability made our unfair tax system even more unfair and will contribute immensely to that shortfall. Our legislators are truly dispicable for even proposing this discriminatory amendment, which was misrepresented to our citizens by Gov Crist. This amendment did nothing to fix the problem of our slumping economy -- it only made it worse. Those burdened the most needed the help -- instead they helped those who least needed it.

[Sick of Hypocracy]

Wait until the mail drops with the House Repubs giving increases to docs making well over $100,000 a year when child abuse investigators and foster care is cut. Should be pretty dramatic.

The Legislature insn't "fearful" they're lazy, greedy, and stupid. As long as they pass legislation to benefit the pockets of their owners (CSX and insurance companies) and protect their future jobs with those companies they'll continue to REFUSE to institute TAX REFORM.

We need to remember this November and vote each and everyone of these bums out - no exceptions. They and everyone who runs and is subsequently elected need to know the depth of our anger!!!!!

Tight budget. I don't believe it. If true we wouln't be paying $300 million for a new airport in northwest Florida so that St Joe can develop more land in around the new airport. And, we wouldn't be giving CSX $650 million to double track their S line. Come on repubs buy the elderly a pair of glasses and send the kids to the denist once in awhile.

[terminator]

5:49
Several years ago I drove by the Magic City Children's Zone (safely to the west on I-95) and let me tell you "ain't no magic in that hood"!
But a $3.5 million drop in the bucket will bolster Marco's chances in the upcoming Miami-Dade mayoral election against Carlos Alvarez who is despised by blacks in Miami-Dade County.
The most recent poll showed Alvarez and Rubio in a dead heat.
Problem is, the $3.5 million will never make it to some of the good low income black folks in Liberty City, it will end up in the pockets of shysters like former Miami-Dade County Empowerment Zone and current FBOE chair "Uncle Tom" T. Willard Fair who p*ssed away millions in Miami-Dade County empowerment zone money without accomplishing a single thing.
His ethically challenged buddy, the former Congresswoman "Momma" Carrie Meek received a luxury SUV and free office space for her Opa Locka voucher clearinghouse from indicted Boston developer Dennis Stackhouse.
Are these the kind of people the Jebster and his sidekick Levesque wanted to give more taxpayer money to?
Don't think so....not on Termie's dime and watch!

[Karl]

If legislators and to some degree the public had considered what kind of state do we want in 2020 or 2030 at the
turn of century, then they could have set priorities and funded them. Instead, there was a huge surge of state tax revenue which they spent without any obvious result. Now, the economy goes into recession and we slash spending for the least able to
contribute to campaigns.

Florida needs good schools, smart growth, a clean environment and an
efficient transportation system. But
it's greatest need is for elected officials who have the courage to tell
the truth. Everything we need costs
money.

EVERYONE MUST LIVE WITHIN THEIR MEANS INCLUDING GOVERNMENT!

Government have plenty of money. They just need to use it better. Cut the fat and waste. Get rid of pensions for 401k's. Lower wages & benefits.

Rep. Dan Gelber of Miami Beach is one of the fat cats supporting drunken spending.

Lower property taxes meaningfully now!!

Swap it for 1% MORE IN SALES TAX

[Gene Smith]

Let's just eliminate all taxes and do away with ALL government. then you idiot GOVERNMENT (i.e. legislative) staffers would have to get real jobs in the real economy.

Good luck - you are going to need it.

Does the party of less taxes really mean no taxes? if not,then how do they know when their goal is reached. Maybe bumpersticker politics are not the best way to govern.

Gene, come back in 2009 when we have :

Amendment 1
Taxpayer's Protection Amendment
Tax Swap

in place and then we can talk. The taxpayers have had enough with the outrageous wasteful spending.

In 2001, we had police, fire, ambulance, schools, ect.. with nearly 50% less in local government spending.

Don't tell me there is no place to cut.
People are not that dumb. Quit the whining and just do the will of the people. If they want less spending, just spend less.

hold the line - don't raise any more gd taxes - i am taxed to death and even pay taxes when i die!

no more - we should be talking about cutting tax rates to give people more money to put back into circulation through consumer spending so tax revenue can rise again - oh but idiot dimocrats are economically too stupid to understand that

[Elmore]

Taxes...taxes..taxes. Why on earth do you people think it is okay to take MY money by force and give it to causes and "feel good" projects that no thinking person on earth would fund themselves? I don't mind infrastructure but these social service money pits, subsidized buses, phoney "programs" that do nothing are ridiculous! How DARE you take my hard earned money from me and throw it at these useless causes that make you (politicians) feel good! I hate taxes and won't vote for any politician that even hints they are going to take another nickle! I earn it...let me keep it!

[James]

An easy one is raising the Cigarette Tax. What benefit does this product provide anyway? $1 Billion new dollars in revenue for the Health Care Budget and Oh Yeah. 79% of Florida's Citizens want it done.

6:00 pm - and gas prices were $1.75 a gallon. And what was your salary back then???

Offer some constructive ideas of shut the heck up!

I am with Elmore on this one.

Stop taxing me in order to provide services for a bunch of interlopers and program addicts.

We need an amendment cutting the number of legislators in half. Does anyone know how much this would save?

if you are going to increase tax on cigs, why not booze and porn movie rentals too!
Sin tax is sin tax is general revenue.
Who is that General Revenue? He has never come to my office.
L.B.

5:57 - great idea!!!! Reinstate the beverage surcharge AND tax all X rated movies $2.00.

Great!!!!!!

[Donald lance]

About 100 yrs ago, govt. spending in the nation was 12% of GDP. Today, it's more like 43%. If healthcare was nationalized, govt spending would be approx. 58% of GDP. The average American now works 5+ mos. to pay off their yearly bill to the govt. When the govt takes more of your money it stifles private growth, so instead of being more independent you become more dependent on govt. That, in,turn, leads to more govt spending and taxes, which only makes the entire issue spin out of your control.
Tax reform is a slippery slope for us. If tax reform doesn't lower existing taxes and instead proposes swapping them, you can be assured the tax will be taxen off the wealthy and placed squarely on the middle class. Make certain you read what the govt is proposing for tax reform because it could end up costing you more money. Remember, if it doesn't lower existing taxes then it's a tax swap and not a tax reduction. If your choices are limited, then so are the chances of free enterprise. 43% of the national GDP is socialist. Citizens are at a point in history where you either work for the govt, or spend 1/2 your life paying for govt. That is a dangerous trend and you all need to be aware of it!

[Buzzard]

I don't mind state/county/local government workers making a decent living and getting a pension. What bothers me is when they get it and the taxpaying public doesn't. Good paying jobs are scarce on the outside and pensions non-existent. Jealous? You bet. Taxpayers are the employers. Something's screwy when the employee gets a better deal than the employer. I once spoke with someone from a communist country who complained that only communist party members - especially officials - lived high on the hog while everyone else had to scrounge. Sounds familiar.

Just fix the roads, pay the police, firemen, and hospitals - and leave me alone

[Charlie "I'm gonna tax carbon" Crist]

hey totalitarian charlie, read this:

Vanities of the Warmists
By Jon Caruthers
The conceit that scientists and bureaucrats can use the power the state to manage nature has lead to disaster in the past, and will again if the global warmists keep getting their way.

When Yellowstone National Park was first created, park officials believed they had to “save” the native fauna as well as protect the visitors by killing off the native wolf population. This they did in grand form. Additionally, they noticed the yearly occurrences of wildfires which, according to the then “modern” and “progressive” thought of the day, should be stamped out at all cost.

The net result of these notions was that 110 years or so later half the park burned down. It turns out that without the wolves the ruminants ran wild and ate up the deciduous trees, leaving only the pine trees to go forth and multiply. Anyone who’s started a campfire knows what happens when you compound this with 110 years of pine needles and flotsam and jetsam -- you end up with the perfect firestorm. This is nothing natural. This situation was created by us -- by human intervention into a formerly pristine ecosystem that was supposedly “managed” by the federal government – and the result was that half the park burned down.

Once again, on the issue of “global warming” we’re faced with government control -- in this case not of the national park system, but of the entire globe. The “progressives” and their “grand thoughts” of the age seek to “manage” the globe in the same “modern” way our ancestors “managed” Yellowstone. Like our ancestors of yore, today’s environmentalists believe the government can control the environment better than Mother Nature can. Are we to suppose that the people who give us the DMV and the IRS are going to “manage” the globe in the same efficient and benevolent manner? In the grand scheme of things are we supposed to believe that we humans are actually better than Mother Nature at “managing” the global environment? For some reason, the enviro-nazis of the age seem to believe that Mother Nature is some kind of octogenarian Alzheimer’s patient and they’re the designated colostomy bag.

Take the great debate over the “Atlantic Conveyor Belt” e.g. the Gulf Stream. Recent studies have shown that glacial melting from Greenland has created a massive pool of freshwater over the Gulf Stream that has disturbed the salinity of the Atlantic Ocean and is shutting down the Gulf Stream. Oh no, this must be a horrible event with calamitous consequences, right? According to the Ecopalyptics, if the Gulf Stream is shut down, Europe won’t receive its relatively warm currents that mean the difference between Shropshire and Winnepeg -- which are roughly on the same latitude. As a result, Europe would be thrown into a new Ice Age, right? Actually no. It’s all about negative feedback. The earth is a stable system, if it weren’t life would have disappeared billions of years ago. It’s the negative feedback that makes life possible in the first place -- if things get out of whack, there’s a system for getting them back to normality. If the Gulf Stream fades, Arctic winds will sink south and cover Greenland, thereby cooling the island and stopping the glacial melt -- thus stopping the runaway insanity of the eco-warriors’ worst nightmares.

The part these people miss – in both their mathematical projections and in their current hysterical projections -- is that Mother Nature is far craftier than we give her credit for. She’s not some old tottering Betty but rather a spry 40-something working mother with trillions of mouths to feed, and the last thing she needs is a bunch of second borne dysfunctional “Rebel Children” raising hell and getting in her way. To paraphrase the great George Carlin: Think of the insults she (Mother Earth) has had to deal with over the billions of years of her existence – comets, asteroids, worldwide fires, worldwide floods, worldwide glaciations, magnetic reversal of the poles -- and we’re to think that some SUVs and some plastic bags are going to make a difference? Mother Nature has had to deal with far worse than us.

Let’s look at those mathematical models that all seem to claim that by mid-century we’re going to be living through climactic hell for a minute. As we know, the climate is a chaotic system -- meaning that even minor variations in the starting conditions can drastically affect the outcome of the model. This is known as the “Butterfly Effect” with the observation that according to the models, a minor and completely unpredictable perturbation like a butterfly flapping its wings in Rio de Janeiro can bring sunshine instead of rain as an outcome on a given day in London. As a result, these models tend to break down over time, wildly diverging in their final result because of this effect. This is the reason why meteorologists can’t reliably forecast the weather beyond seven days. The farther out you want to forecast -- reliably -- the more certain you need to be about the initial conditions, and the more certain you need to be about the variables of your equation.

As for those initial conditions, if we’re talking about global warming from greenhouse gasses, we need to know something about those gasses -- how much of each type are produced, and how much of each type are consumed, in a given year. The production of man-made greenhouse gasses is easily, though tediously, quantified. The amount produced naturally is another story. In January, for instance, the Kilauea volcano started producing greenhouse gasses at an alarming rate, and for no apparent reason. One can estimate the amount of such gasses produced, but again, these “assumptions” are what invalidates the mathematical models, as you need absolute accuracy to forecast reliably.

Despite what the “experts” may say, consumption, as described above, is completely unknown. Look into the field of metagenomics. Scientists discovered that if they sampled sand from one area of a beach near Torrey Pines, they discovered literally hundreds of thousands of new species of organisms. Even more surprising, if they moved the probe one meter right or left they discovered hundreds of thousands more species as unrelated to the original crop as we are to the original crop. In short, we have no idea -- not even remotely -- of the number of species on the planet, and how many of those are consuming greenhouse gasses, and how many are producing the stuff. Since we have no idea of how much of a given gas is being consumed or produced, the estimates going into those models are only that -- estimates -- and eat away at the efficacy of the model (as again, it’s all about accuracy).

Now for the second part -- the variables. The big fallacy of these climate models is twofold: Le Chatelier’s Principle and evolution. The first can be summed up by the Predator-Prey equation: whether it’s lions on the Serengeti or bacteria in a Petri dish, the idea is that the more prey you pump into a system -- either in the above examples, wildebeest or yeast extract and milk proteins -- the more predators you’ll produce. In terms of the globe, the entire plant kingdom, as well as a good portion of the uni-cellular world, consumes greenhouse gasses to some degree (and again, we have no idea to what degree).

What is known, however, is that if you put more greenhouse gasses into the system -- the globe -- the more these organisms will consume until equilibrium is reached. The rate of which is a complete unknown. We don’t have any idea of the number of species on the planet, so how can we know anything of their metabolisms and the resulting impact on the environment?

Further, the reproduction of a single-celled diatom or algae is significantly shorter than ours (20 minutes in the best of circumstances). This means they experience evolution on a vastly accelerated scale, and that if the world has an increased level of greenhouse gasses, the organisms that consume the majority of them will react the fastest to the increase, modifying their genomes to become more efficient in their consumption. Again, there’s no way to even begin to account for this variable, so the modelers conveniently ignore its contribution.

The result is that we’re trying to base policy on flawed models that are no better than ancient shamans reading tea leaves. The enviro-nazis are no better than the medicine man of lineage ancient during a lunar eclipse who could claim that the great night spirit was eating the moon goddess, and if only the tribal elders would hand over the virgins he’d perform his incantations and make him spit her out again.

9:06 - you might have a point - except that FL state employees are at the bottom of the pay scale when compared to other states - we are not living high on the hog unless ham goes on sale at publix

[Buzzard]

9:33- so you're saying all those extra millions collected in recent years have been enriching only county and municipal workers? I had no idea.

10:29 - no what i am saying is your argument has no basis in fact

Support the Taxpayer's Protection Amendment being considered for the Nov ballot.

[Donald lance]

Hey 5:34! Remeber, if it doesn't lower existing taxes, then it's a covert attempt to raise taxes elsewhere. Be careful what you wish for!

Donald, the whole goal is to:

LOWER PROPERTY TAXES

[Donald Lance]

4:48, that's my point exactly! It has to lower existing (including Property)taxes!