Florida Senate vs. TBRC

Sen. Mike Haridopolos bemoaned the McKay tax swap on the Senate floor and complained that the Taxation and Budget Reform Commission has ignored his two previous letters accusing them of putting on the ballot the "largest tax increase in history" without more consideration. He's sending a third letter today.

"It's such an important issue, especially when a non-elected body can place before the voters the largest tax increase in our state's history," said Haridopolos, who runs the Senate's Finance and Tax Committee.

Comments

So the truth about the Republicans is coming out now that they find some of their special interest groups somehow threatened by the proposed tax swap plan.

As a lifelong Republican voter here in Florida I can honestly say that if they do not support this plan with all the effort the State Party can muster I will drop my registration and not vote for their candidates this fall.

This tax swap will provide help for all property owners, especially important for non-SOH property owners, and thus provides individuals more say so in how they are taxed because we have the option of not consuming, and being taxed for doing so, if our budget does not allow. Too bad government cannot restrain spending like average citizens have to.

So the truth about the taxwatch fanatics is coming out now that they've consulted with their Big Business buddies and been assured that the sales tax will have little effect on the goods and services THEY sell.

On the other hand, the reduction in property taxes will help in their tireless efforts to strangle local government regulations, and the centralization of revenue at the state level will make on-stop lobbying (and worse) much easier for their pals.

Thanks 1:38 - you've made this complex issue a lot clearer for everyone.

Cry me a river 'Senator' Haridopolos. The largest tax increase in history would be what some of us pay in property taxes. If you losers in Tallahassee had done your jobs and come up with honest to goodness tax REFORM, things might be different. One day all of you will realize that without the average taxpaying citizen, you will have NOTHING. Your corporate buddies won't be able to provide for you like we have.

[terminator]

wonder how Hari's PHD and book is coming along?

can anyone believe anything this guy says?

how bout his double dipping side jobs with UF and BCC?

the guy's a putz. anyone who would support him has to have crap where his brains should be or is crooked as a dog's hind leg!

[UF Grad Student]

Although I have not had the honor of taking his class yet, hiring Haridopolus was a huge coup for UF.

The old saying is that those who can do, those who can't teach. Well UF has someonce who can and does teaching too!

Other institutions are just jealous!

It is a tax increase plain and simple. Increasing the sales tax while favoring only property owners is very regressive on the lower class. As a renter I will feel the brunt of this tax increase.

With revenue falling because of a decrease in tourism, this is only going to worsen our future economic conditions.

The Tax Swap would also be one of the largest tax decrease. I have no problem with swapping out some from property taxes since it is so high compared with the rest of the nation.

Yes to Tax Swap
Yes to Taxpayer's Protection Amendment

[john donson]

Welcome to Soviet Russia! Where the politbureau decides what is best for us comrades. Kind of reminds me of the federal energy bill, China's entry into the WHO, BearSterns buyout, NAFTA, you get the idea. When do the people get to decide something?

[My Name is Earl]

Why did they choose education to protect? Why not the elderly or healthcare?

The big question is why aren't they protecting all government services.

[Blue hair and a blue dog]

Looks like Senior Citizens are being left out again.

Seniors better be happy that its education that they want to hold harmless.

You all have had decades to save money and plan.

And funding education in this state trains the doctors and nurses who will be caring for you.

[Pat]

This is clearly a bait and switch. Lowering taxes on one end while raising them substantially with a massive sales tax. We will have the highest sales tax in the country.

At some time we will have to incrase taxes again to fill the giant sucking sound coming out of Tallahassee.

This is a massive tax increase.

It seems to me like we're missing the point here. If taxes are so high, then why are we having trouble meeting the budget? Why are we trying to LOWER taxes?

It seems like not so long ago, whether the times were boom or bust, local governments simply raised or lowered their millage rates to adjust for their needs. If the people thought they were being excessive in their spending, they simply elected different people.

Now all of the sudden this system isn't good enough? Why do we need all these tax swaps and constituitional amendments when we could easily make our wishes known at a local level?

John Donson is right - having these state politicians decide on taxation for us is like Communisim. We can do just fine on our own.

Ok 4:04, I mean Mikey Haridopolus

When the net difference of the decrease exceeds the increase - it is a decrease

If you have $100 in taxes and take away $25, but add back $20 for a new total of $95 - is that an increase or decrease?

Hari - I will also suggest that you are opposed to the larget tax decrease in history if you oppose this.

ARTICLE XI

AMENDMENTS

SECTION 6. Taxation and budget reform commission.--

(a) Beginning in 2007 and each twentieth year thereafter, there shall be established a taxation and budget reform commission composed of the following members:

3) four non-voting ex officio members, all of whom shall be members of the legislature at the time of appointment.

Hari - didn't you complain about having reduced revenue at one point and didn't you ask the TBRC to do your (well nothing is for sure, especially with your attitude) job IF you become Senate president?

EXACTLY 4:07 PM

3:13 PM - If you spent $10,000 a year on taxable goods, it will cost you an additional $100. Property taxes no doubt impact the rent your landlord charges you; therefore, you will benefit by not seeing an increase in your rent. Tourism will not be impacted by a penny increase in sales tax. If a tourist travels to Florida and spends $2000 it will cost them an additional $20. Is that really going to keep them from coming here? I say yes to tourists helping fund our budget.

Hey Sen Mike you don't have to increase taxes you just have to CUT SPENDING!!!! Sen Mike sounds like the local governments did last year. What is it that all these politicians don't get? We want you to CUT SPENDING!!!

[steve]

Haridoupolos, Kottcamp and Cannon have lead us into this mess. By the way 37 other states have higher property taxes then we do. We have sunk to the bottom of list, under Guam, for what we spend on education. They, the Norquist Republicans, want to kill public education and any kind of local government. They do not need to burn our books to keep us ignorant, there will not be any money to buy them. What has happened to the Party of Lincoln, Eisenhower and Goldwater? These Florida Republicans are worse than the carpetbaggers and scalawags that haunted our state following the Civil War.

Hari is just upset that his time (well maybe not) as Sen President might be hard if revenue declines...

4:28

37 other states have higher property taxes than Florida? Are you referring to long-time homeowners or ALL property owners in Florida? Don't just look at your tax bill when you make a statement like that.

3:13 Why don't you purchase some property and get vested in the ommunity instead of whining about paying your fair share as an interloper?

4:57 is just wrong. If we do the switch that is being recommended, we will have the highest sales tax in the nation. Currently, there are only 10 states with higher sales tax rates than the state of Florida.

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/sales.html

[terminator]

Hari's just mad cuz he won't have money to piss down the drain on corporate welfare like his predecessors have done over the past ten years.
He'll (if he actually gets to Senate Prez) be forced to make some hard decisions that will include: spending less money, prioritizing the budget, being forced to identify and cut tax exemption turkeys like corporate skyboxes, etc.

UF Grad student:
I think you've been smoking too much of that Gainesville green. What has Hari accomplished in life shy of being a pandering legislator who doesn't even understand half the issues that come before him and having served as an adjunct professor at Brevard Community College.
I guess in your eyes, he's the model of success!

Uf should be embarassed he's on their payroll. What a freaking joke!!!

[Tom]

According to the Florida Department of Revenue Sales and Use tax collections decreased $2.4 billion between the calendar years 2006 and 2007. Year to date 2008 Sales and Use tax collections are worse than 2007! This is no time to be swapping a stable stream of income, school property tax, for an increase in sales tax. The TBRC is wrong on this issue. I congratulate Senator Mike Haridopolos for asking the tough questions, no one else in Tally is willing to do so.

This is the perfect time to lessen the burden of property owners with a swap.

Put it on the ballot and let the voters decide.

5:22pm, those figures are not really accurate.

They don't include huge local sales tax added by many jurisdiction like New York, Las Vegas, L.A., ect..

Wow, write stern letter Number Three, that'll show 'em!

Will you write it in crayon, Mikey?

If Haridopolos took testosterone would that make his voice deeper?

I can never tell if it's him or Fasano talking.

What a cry baby... he is only three years out of being one of the most powerful elected officials in Florida and he is acting like a cry baby...

Tom-

STILL an idiot.

gosh tom, guess you don't have a clue that the changing demographics, combined with the constantly increasing costs of property taxes and insurance are making home ownership out of reach for an increasing segment of the population.

Throw in save our homes, and voila! unstable base!

Since the foreign tourists that come here benefit from our pitifully weak dollar (and the fact that they are accustomed to a much, much higher tax rate on goods they purchase) they won't even blink on a one cent increase.

8:12 is right.

Dosters going to run the campaign for this. it has to win.

Tom,

I thought your staff director talked to you about blogging TBRC issues. Isn't that a conflict of interest?

Yea cause Doster knows how to pull off a win!

It's all in the bag. Doster has Governor Gallagher tanned, tested and ready.

Which of the 3 government employers will offer their letterhead for Mikey's letter?

Doster be sure to use lots of pics of Mikey in The Campaign.

He can be Anti Tax Man in tights and a cape.

And get the camera angle that shows off the dippity-do curl.

Methinks Haridopolos is suffering from a bad case of tax reform envy. I hear there's a new prescription out for that.

I see the taxwatch one man "groundswell of public support" is here again, spouting his Norquist talking points and pretending to represent popular opinion.

Problem Solved!

I am tired of these politicians complaining about proposals that others make instead of putting forth one that beats it.

The sales tax for property tax proposal is the best one going at the moment. If Senator Haridopolos cannot come up with a better plan then he needs to pipe down and back this one. Otherwise he is going to more worried about being Senate Minority leader than President because a lot of Republicans are getting sick of the anything and everything for Big Business approach the Party is taking.

Haridopolos Gobbles Tax Dollars

The Tampa Tribune

Published: April 11, 2008

No one was tougher on local officials than state Sen. Mike Haridopolos as lawmakers pushed to cut property taxes.

"Homeowners cannot afford the outrageous spending habits of local government," the Melbourne Republican wrote during the debate. "Local governments need to follow the example of families and businesses by prioritizing and spending efficiently."

The 38-year-old's lecture rings hollow given his own propensity to feed at the public trough.

Haridopolos recently landed a $75,000-a-year job as a University of Florida guest lecturer. He will be paid $5,000 more than his predecessor, though he has no doctorate. Two other lecturers with Ph.Ds in the same department make less than $50,000.

They, of course, are not scheduled to become Senate president in 2010. Haridopolos is.

And this generous job offer came as the Legislature is slashing education funding, across the board.

This is not an isolated case. After Haridopolos was elected to the Senate in 2003, Brevard Community College, where he taught history, offered a sweet deal. The Orlando Sentinel reports the school paid him $38,000 a year to write a book, so he wouldn't have to teach.

Scholars say the arrangement is extraordinary.

Haridopolos' six-chapter, 175-page book is complete but has yet to be published - understandable, given its banal political advice, such as "a cell phone will be essential."

Taxpayers have paid Haridopolos more than $150,000 for what seems no more than an effort to keep an influential politician on the payroll.

When it comes to government spending tax dollars efficiently, Haridopolos has no standing to lecture anyone.

Haridopolos the Hypocrite

Hari, support the 1.35% cap and I will give you a pass on this one..

[debbie]

I have a suggestion for everyone in the Senate and House (including governor freakshow) and any other business folks etc. that want to keep slamming everything that the TBRC - if you can't come up with any other idea that is FAIR AND EQUITABLE, shut the $*@% up and let the people of this state decide.

For those of you whining and crying about possibly having the 'highest tax rate', don't forget to add your local rate and whether or not food etc is included. And oh yeah, what about an income tax?

Taxes are a necessary evil, unfortunately, the key is spreading them in a fair and equitable basis which we currently DO NOT do. And allowing lobbyists etc. to interfere with this process and screaming chicken little the sky is falling rhetoric helps no one. Take a look at YOUR property tax bill and knock off what would be pulled out if it is exchanged for the 1 cent. If you are able to spend $75,000 to $100,000 on discretionary items, then you can DANG sure afford your taxes. Because that's how freakin' much you would have to pay.

Get over it people. We need tax reform in this state. Until people wake up and realize that and the courts decide that this pathetic welfare program we call SOH is unconstitutional, we need to do what we can.

There is no reason why tourists and others shouldn't contribute. A one cent increase isn't going to send them running. Wow. At least it's more reliable than the lottery....

And if the legislature would wake up and take care of the exclusions, exemptions, internet sales and corporate taxes, they might find that all the doom and gloom and threats that they have received were just that. But I guess we'll never know since none of them have any spines.

Oh the list goes on and on, but they aren't listening anyway...

Take a look at YOUR property tax bill and knock off what would be pulled out if it is exchanged for the 1 cent. If you are able to spend $75,000 to $100,000 on discretionary items, then you can DANG sure afford your taxes. Because that's how freakin' much you would have to pay.

Meaning - that's how much you would have to spend to match that savings from your property taxes... I got a little ahead of myself...

[John Donson]

9:41 I agree to a point. The problem is when you are trying to fund the budget off a sales tax, it tends to lead to volitility ahead. Let me explain: Everything I've been reading talks about the tourists paying more for the general revenue. Let's say the Dollar increases in value vs. other currencies. It WILL cut down on foreigners vacationing here, thus reducing revenue. As the Dollar increases in value, tourism will fall. As it decreases, tourism will rise. If you don't believe me, go visit the Mouse in O-Town when our Dollar is high and again when the Dollar is low. Then tell me if you think this is the right way to go. Remember the Penny For Pinellas? "Tourists will be the ones who pay for this". How about bed taxes? "Tourists will be the ones to pay that". We have been using tourists as the tax donkey for so long now, yet we continuously need more revenue. The answer isn't in raising the sales tax. The answer is in reducing govt!

John, you are leaving one very important factor out of your tourism equation. Many vistors to Florida come here, not for Orlando's attractions, but to enjoy the famed natural beauty of our forests, lakes, rivers, and oceans.

However, as we continue to divert tax revenue away from regualtory agencies and instead spend it on subsidies for big business and development, eventually what natural beauty we have left will have been sacrificed to the forces of unrestrained growth.

Naturally, word will get out to those same tourists that Florida is no longer the beautiful vacation destination it once was, and the revenue from the sales tax will drop accordingly.

I propose that as in investment in our states future, we stop cutting taxes for business, and instead recognize (and fund accordingly) those agencies in our state and local govenment that work to preserve our wild areas from development.

[debbie]

John - I definitely do agree with you. Problem is, no one will reduce it! I think if we could all find a way to really do that, it would happen so fast their heads would spin!!!

I just do think that relieving the property tax burden would benefit so many more that I'd gladly take the 1 cent in its place. Then maybe we would all find that way to start eliminating positions from govt etc.

Debbie, etc. You represent everything that the people hate about politics and the influence game played by you and your tax fanatic big business supporters. If you made voters aware of what you REALLY want, and who you represent, instead of pretending to be poor overburdened taxpayers, they would ignore every word you said. Crawl back under your rock and let the people do what's right without your PR drivel.

[John Donson]

Debs. Another problem with a reduction in Prop taxes and sales tax swap is a reduction in local funding. You know as well as I that once you send money to the govt. you'll never get it back! What happens is a BHO scenario called wealth distribution. The poorest counties in the state would benefit the most, while the biggest counties would be shortchanged. The only way a sales tax swap would work is if it was done at the local level, thus keeping the revenue in county. Then the county would have to build bigger buildings and hire people to staff them at 66 degrees F during the summer to handle the taxes, pay them 6% increases yearly while getting free medical care - thus creating more burden on the taxpayer. Where does this end? Higher property taxes to offset the revenue shortfall from the sales taxes. Florida cannot afford to live off hoped for sales taxes for the next 20 years until TABOR decides that it was a bad idea & now they need to raise property taxes. By the way, property taxes are the most fair tax there is because it is assessed at the local level. It's a direct tax so the county gets it all. Sales taxes are indirect and can be allocated any way Tally decides.

We should get rid of local government all together... no need for them...

[For the swap and cap!!!]

Well John Donson, since you believe you have it all figured out, maybe you and the smart aleck at 10:50 am should go to Tally and represent the people and get things straightened out. Talk talk talk does nothing to fix the problems in this state. Debbie is right when she states that property taxes are NOT equitable. You can list your problems with sales taxes all you want but the biggest problem with property taxes is you are being taxed forever on something you own and even once your loan is paid off, the government can step in and take your property from you because of property taxes. THAT is the biggest scam of all. Get rid of your tunnel vision and accept Debbie's and other people's points of view.

[John Donson]

Well Miss 11:25, all I can say to you is think long-term. Not the here & now. Yes, you would benefit today by cutting prop tax, but what waits around the corner? Sometimes, the best intentions have unintended consequences. Ghandi gave us Pakistan! Property taxes are a function of the property value. As values fall, the taxes are supposed to as well. So miss tuffit, your problem is that your taxes continue to increase while your value decreases. I don't have to play Lawton Chiles & walk to Tally when the problem lies right here with the assessor. Forgive me for looking forward on an issue instead of the right now mentality that only gets you in trouble tomorrow. All you want to do is Rob Peter to pay you! How is that equitable? But you probably bought your house 3-5 years ago when the housing boom was going on, now you have to deal with unintended consequences in the form of higher prop taxes. I do to, but relying on some beret-wearing Frenchman to pay our taxes is pie in the sky thinking.

Just in, John Donson supports the repeal of SOH!

John Donson supports high property taxes! Alert the masses! Watch out bloggers, the man is on a mission. The anonymous 'for the swap and cap' poster at 11:25 poked a nerve! Let's sit back and watch the fun!

[Donald Lance]

11:25. You're Marc Larson aren't you? You said the same thing on the radio the other morning! I'm a huge fan of yours but you're wrong. Fees are the same thing as taxes. Inflation is a tax! Do away with inflation and fees then we can do something about ongoing taxation of property after it's bought.

do away with inflation?!

Government is not the sole contributor nor controller of inflation.

Yes, tax policy affects inflation, but so do a wide variety of other market factors, overhead costs, and supply/demand chains.

OK 11:16, let's do away with local government

But I will point you to the Republican Party of Florida's Guiding Principles:

GOP Principles

I Believe… The proper function of government is to do for the people those things that have to be done but cannot be done, or cannot be done as well, by individuals, and that the "most effective government is government closest to the people."

John Donson is wrong! The tax swap only affects the school portion of property tax. How would that benefit small counties?
Education should be funded at the state level. There is a system already in place to redistribute the swap tax by how many pupils are in each county.

It is obvious, Mr Donson does not know how government works.

The tax swap is a good idea because property tax is outrageous in Florida.

Good news, the Senate wins!