Rubio on the tax swap: 'I'm happy'

[Rubio on the House floor Friday. Times photo | Scott Keeler]

A few days ago, House Speaker Marco Rubio added criticism of the plan to trade school property taxes for higher sales tax and other revenue sources. His remarks seem to spell trouble for the proposal. But the “tax swap” passed the Taxation and Budget and Reform Commission on Thursday and is now headed for the November ballot.

"I'm happy the people of Florida are going to get a chance on changing the way we fund public schools,” Rubio said in an interview Thursday afternoon. "Most people agree that property taxes is a horrible way to fund education. The bigger argument is how do you replace the revenue. I continue to believe consumption taxes are superior.”

What gives? He's for the plan, then against it, and now for it again. (see the jump for the answer and more)

Rubio, who was the first to attempt a swap, said he was concerned because there was not a cap to prevent local governments from trying to raise additional revenue through fees and other means. (The TABOR-style measure died amid furious debate in several TBRC meetings.)

Then, Rubio said, he reminded himself of the statutory cap on property tax revenue the Legislature imposed last year. "I still prefer a constitutional revenue cap because it doesn’t just cover property taxes. It's all revenues and it’s in the constitution,” he said. “But I take some comfort from the knowledge that there is a statutory cap in place.”

In the interview, Rubio discounted fears about a services tax being used to offset the loss of school property taxes.

“It is an option, but it is no more an option than it is right now,” he said. “The Legislature can in any given year can come in an institute a services tax. We don’t, however, because we know it won’t work.”

He also disagreed with the “regressive” argument that that increasing the sales tax by a penny or more hurts lower income people.

"At least the sales tax, in a state like Florida that exempts food medicine and many other essentials, you have choices. The property tax, you have to pay it whether you have the money or you don’t have the money."

And Rubio gave some insight into his own dealings with the powerful Taxation and Budget Reform Commission, which wrapped up work today. Rubio appointed seven of the 25 members, so his thoughts carried weight throughout the process.

Rubio explained that some members were concerned that the revenue cap and a voucher proposal were killed off by others purposefully trying to clear the ballot for the tax swap.

John McKay, author of the swap, visited with with Rubio and expressed worry that his baby could be in danger.

“After TABOR went down and after vouchers were defeated, he had heard there were appointees of mine that were concerned (about the swap),” Rubio said. “I told him that they were. I told him that I was. It all most appeared at one point to be a concerted effort to keep everything off the ballot but the swap.”

If Rubio was trying to tell him something, McKay got the message. When vouchers came back up, the former Senate President reversed his vote and went for the proposal to reverse a Supreme Court decision striking down former Gov. Jeb Bush’s Opportunity Scholarships.

“You can’t take politics out of politics,” Rubio said.

“At the end of the day, I don’t care whether it’s a condominium board, whether it is an appointed board to run an expressway authority or whether it’s a taxation and budget reform commission, any time in a democratic society that you put people in a room and give them power to decide major issues, politics will find its way into that room.

“It’s just inevitable. And I don’t think there’s anything necessarily wrong with that as long as the ultimate goal is good public policy. The ultimate reassurance should be that no matter what they put on the ballot, it has to be passed by voters, by 60 percent, in a general election. It will now have to withstand the test of a campaign."

Comments

He was for Amendment 1 before he was against it, so what's new here?

[Florida]

I'll be happy when you're gone from the legislature, Marco.

[GOD]

I can't stop laughing at him. But the last time that happened, the guy started WWII.

[Property Taxes, Insurance, and Education Reform]

Thank you Marco for getting us under control. Great job. No, really, excellent effort.

at least they outlawed truck nutzzzz

Doesn't the tax swap need a 66.7% vote? Can the blogger confirm this one way or the other? A new tax is envisioned by the amendment, which I believe requires the 66.7% threshold to be met.

Of course Rubio is happy!

$700 million to CSX
$265 million to his friend
$110 million for the St. Joe Paper Co. airport
$10,000 a month consultants

While he is cutting Government Waste by: cutting foster care workers, reducing staffing in nursing homes, reducing reimbursement rates for nursing homes, cuttng services to the severely mentally and physcially handicapped, cutting hospice, cutting medical coverage for chronically ill children, and cutting medical coverage to the medically needy.

Yep, that's our Rubio - he can be so proud that he's cut eductation while increasing money for prisons.

Even the Grinch had a bigger heart.

[Don Mott]

"At least the sales tax, in a state like Florida that exempts food medicine and many other essentials, you have choices." Yeah like the choice to not replace my broken down lawnmower or worn out jeans and shirts. What a joke.

I have a question for the Times editor controlling blogs. Not that they would have the integrity to answer.
Why is it that only hateful, mean spirited democrats blog? Why is is that you claim that blogs cannot be offensive, but most of them are more than offensive and you don't remove them. It seems as though someone gets off on this hateful bantering. Somebody should be fired.

[Donald Lance]

What really is appalling is that Colorado was the only state to implement TABOR, until the citizens repealed it. 28 other states had a ballot initiative to enact TABOR, but they all failed to pass it. Why does Florida want this? TABOR and the classroom size amendment do NOT go hand-in-hand. When there is reduced funding for public education teachers will be handed the pink slip, further increasing the teacher-to-student ratio. With the onus placed on local govts road maintenance reduction will be one of the easiest ways to reduce spending, but they will pay more later as the roads deteriorate. Medicaid will be cut so more children will not receive proper vaccination and the elderly's presciption plan would be cut.
Here are the Benefits to TABOR. It benefits large landowners and that's it. Here's how reporter Ray Ring put it in the San Francisco Chronicle, “If you could fit 20 houses on your land, plus a junkyard and a gravel mine, and government regulations limit you to six houses, then the government would have to pay you whatever profit you would have made on the unbuilt houses, junkyard and mine. Of course, the government can't afford to pay you, so it would have to drop its regulations, allowing the maximum development, no matter what your neighbors think.” They give special rights to big landowners and developers, whose demands for compensation cannot be met by local governments, and who will use the new laws to remove all barriers to runaway sprawl. To prove this point, Look no further than Oregon. They passed a pay-or-waive law in 2004 called Prop 37, which has resulted in a gridlock of claims for compensation totaling more than $3 billion! Naturally, Oregon can't pay for all of them. And that is the whole point. The sad reality is that regulatory takings will remove all barriers to unmitigated growth and destroy the things Americans love best about their state environments—good fishing, safe and clean water, access to public lands, open space and more.
Please keep that in mind while you are counting the fistful of Dollars you may initially save under this idiotic law.

If people went out in droves to vote 'yes' on amendment 1 - for a measly $240 a month savings, you think they are going to say no to this? Get over it people and let Govt. find a way to live within it's means the way we have to. I'm tired of hearing about how the schools are going to suffer - the people/renter/homeowners are suffering and who cares?

[Donald Lance]

Em, 4:12, it's a YEAR not a month.

[Reality]

The current problems with Florida’s education system are due in great part to what I consider to be one of the most atrocious scams pulled on Florida in recent history… that being of course the Great Lotto scam. In my opinion of course, former governor Bob Martinez should be in jail for it… but I digress.

That said; this scam made it impossible for statewide education systems to balance and maintain a budget due to the inconsistency of the revenue stream.

An error we clearly have not learned from. Its effect on the public system has been wonderful for voucher pushers though.

Now, we wish to further this mess by making the revenue stream even more inconsistent, and basing our funding on a sales tax… as we enter into a recession.

It seems when we speak the word “Logic” to our Legislature, what they hear is “Lobbyist”. What we need is an FCAT system for these folks in Tallahassee called an FGAT.

F = Florida
G = Government
A = Accountability
T = Test

… or is that what we call an Election?

4:05- Please provide examples of the comments before you that you believe should be censored?

4:05 That's because the GOP leadership in Tallahassee and the White House provide such a target rich environment.

Rubio will change his mind 6 or 7 more times anyway so who cares.

When Rubio said "Most people agree that property taxes is a horrible way to fund education.", he really meant "Most people in my small circle of ideological sycophants agree that property taxes [are] a horrible way to fund education. Donna Arduin told me so".
This will never get even 60% from the voters.

8:59/gop "operative"

your own economists agree about the changing demographics, and (as Gov Jeb Bush said in 2002) property tax is not a reliable base in the future.

we know you want to keep getting paid to create chaos, but your desire to help your special interest clients is obvious.

Are you sure Rubio, really sure? Come on dig deep and make a committment that last more than one vote or press release.

In the end though it doesn't matter what you, Randy Miller of the Knick Nack Federation or Mickey Mouse think the people are going to ram that tax swap down your throat and for good reason too.

By the way the 1.35% Cap plan is a pathetic developer/speculator driven hack job. It won't move any further than your attention span allows you to stick with something. Talk about doomed.

Donald Lance,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe TABOR has yet to be approved for placement on the ballot for citizens to vote. This article is re. the tax swap, of which you have also opposed on other blogs. If you want to sway people to your side, please answer the following questions?

Are you a government employee?
Do you believe Florida citizens need property tax relief?
Do you own a home in Florida?
Do you have an accumulated SOH exemption?
If yes, what value of your home is exempted due to SOH?
Lastly, are you willing to pay more personally in taxes to maintain these much needed services?

[John Donson]

4:47. Forgive me for being proactive because I don't like the govt selling their bill of goods on the ballot box. Do you think people will remember all the little intricacies of this bill come Nov? It's better to brand it now.
i don't see how your questions are relevant to the state's future. You are trying to justify your own savings today at the cost of the state's future. But people like to be appeased so allow me to flatter you - slightly.
Govt Employee? No! Business owner! But when I quit working for the day I'm also a citizen of this state who cares about the future. The response to changes you make today will not be felt until tomorrow. With TABOR, you just handcuffed the local govt. to control the growth of tomorrow.
Tax Relief? I believe markets should take care of that and I don't like automatic increases in my property tax when the value falls.
Owner? Yes
SOH Exemption? Yes
Value? Irrelevent to the conversation.
Pay more? Willing to if justified.
Maybe you want strip malls on your corner or buildings so tall you can't see the beach. Maybe you want pot-hole infested roads that'll tear your car apart. Maybe you want schools that are nothing more than glorified daycare centers. Maybe you want to do away with zoning ordinances since govt wont have the ability to enforce them. If that is your idea of Shangri-La, you can have it! Oh, and don't forget about the smokestack belching in your backyard. I'll gladly pay more to prevent all of that from happening. Now go do your research on what happened in Colorado with TABOR.

Donald,

I have not made my decision regarding TABOR. I was questioning your reference to that issue on this blog as this article was in regards to the tax swap.

While I do believe the government encourages developments and should impose much heavier impact fees. I believe there are too many homes now as we have a glut of empty homes that still have not sold. I am a longtime homeowner who moved in 2006 due to a life changing event and have zero SOH benefit accumulated. I am very overburdened with taxes and desparately need relief.

How do you feel the market will correct that. By declining values? It has some already, but will never decline to the values of most longtime homeowners who enjoy taxes half of what I pay.

I asked the questions of you that I did, because I'm trying to understand what exactly you do stand for and what you believe the solution to the problem is.

Bottomline, I need relief and believe that I am no doubt paying considerably more tax than you. I wish there was a way to even out the system between longtime homeowners and new and recent buyers, but not even this plan will do that.

You seem to be such an expert and have so much to say, so please share with us your solution to homeowners like myself who need relief.

John Donson or Donald Lance....
Are you one in the same??

You don't like automatic increases in your property taxes when the value falls? If you were paying on the full assessed value like new and recent buyers, you wouldn't experience an automatic (3%) increase when values decline. You believe the market will correct itself? New and recent buyers who are assessed at full market values, will receive a decline in their taxes when values fall, while those assessed far below market values because of their SOH protection for several years will incur a slight increase (3%). Isn't this how the market will correct itself? Even considering this, it will take many years for the system to equal out the differences between longtime homeowners and new and recent buyers, and most likely never will especially with portability.

You state you are concerned about the future of Florida. Just because one wants/needs a tax break doesn't mean they aren't as well. Donald or John, whoever you are, I find so many of your statements conflicting. I agree with you on some items; such as the government being too lenient on future developments. However, reading between the lines, you just sound like another one of those who would rather they tax that man behind the tree than to tax you.

I'm just curious...did you vote yes or no on Amendment 1, or is that irrelevant as well?

I am happy too because it will be much easier to just tell voters to vote "no" on every amendment than it would have been to fight just one or two bad ideas purely on their lack of merrit.

There is still another week of Session, Marco. That should be enough time to endorse three or four new unrelated property tax giveaway schemes.

Glad Rubio is happy, I know I am!!! This tax swap has my YES vote.

This will be the largest tax increase in Florida history and will create chaos for all levels of governments --- OUR GOVERNMENTS.

12:15

What is a property tax give away scheme? Are you saying all home owners pay a fair amount of tax and don't need relief? Are you willing to pay more? I'm sure the government would be happy to receive your donation.

12:53

Does not the decrease in property tax exceed the increase? How will it cause chaos for our governments?

[Donald Lance]

9:15. "The avoidance of taxes is the only intellectual pursuit that carries any reward."
- John Maynard Keynes, economist

Most people get their tax bill, open it, complain and pay it. What would you do if the power company overbilled you? Same thing with your tax assessment! Many properties are over-assessed and over paying in property taxes. Yours might be as well. When properties are not reappraised on a regular basis, values get distorted resulting in homeowners of similar properties paying significantly different property taxes.
Your local government uses a mass appraisal process to value a large range of properties. They obtain valuation quickly and usually inefficiently. While cost effective to the tax collection authority, it is not fair to a large portion of homeowners. Often previous house tax assessment information is erroneous rolled over into the next year.
The National Taxpayers Union documents that as many as 60% of all properties in America are over assessed yet less than 1% appeal their taxes. The process to contest these contrived market values is relatively simple.
I'm trying not to write a book here. If you don't take it upon yourself to investigate your own house's value, why would you trust that the govt is being equitable to you? Never trust the govt when they come knocking on your door for money!
Imagine if every single homeowner in the state flooded the assessor's office. What would the results be then?
You know your neighborhood better than the assessor does, so do some research on how to fight them. I did!

Donald Lance,

You continuously avoid the questions and/or points that are madde and try to redirect my problem to an overassessment rather than an unfair tax system. Trust me, I have appealed my assessment and spoken with the property appraiser office many times. I fully undersstand the system. 2007 taxes were based on 2006 values and 2008 will be based on 2007 -- thus the reason for a decline this year.

The system is unfair. You are one of the lucky to have been in your home and have an accumulated SOH benefit. Good for you.

So answer my questions and don't respond with an assessment apeal. That is not the problem. I pay more for the same value home as my neighbors and need/want relief. What solution do you propose. I have yet to see you come up with a better plan!

Remember in November: $700 million for CSX; $265 million for friend of Rubio's; $10,000 a month for Rubio's consultants; $110 million for St. Joe Paper Company airport.

Don't forget to do all the above they had to "reduce": fostercare workers; nursing home inspectors; staffing in nursing homes; Childrens Medical Services ability to provide medical care for chronically ill children; KidCare (so they could provide services for autistic childre they had to cut health care for non-autistic children; k-12 education; universities; services for the severely mentally and physically handicapped; the elderly; and numerous other vulnerable people of the state.

What they DIDN'T REDUCE were the following: their FREE HEALTH INSURANCE (family plan); their FREE DENTAL INSURANCE (family plan); their salaries (they earn more in 60 days than the average full-time state employee); their staff; their budgets; their travel allowances (their per diem is about 2X more than reg. state employees and they receive "special" money every day they are in Tallahassee); or their flight homes every weekend.

And, after they are "termed out" if they are elected to another position they'll be hired by a state university or agency as "Senior Management" whether they qualify or not at a min. salary of $100,000 a year (even if the "base" for the job is just $35,000).

Yep, of course Rubio, Pruitt, Posey, Webster, Sanson, Carlton, Hasner and all their buddies look "happy."

Repiglicans - turning the "middle class" into the "working poor" while they continue to feed from the trough!!

Oink, oink, oink!!!

Wow, Speaker Marco Rubio sure has a lot of power. I'm happy this Property Tax reduction (swap) is on the November ballot.

Now it's the people's turn to make sure it passes.

California residents love Prop 13.

Floridian will love lowering their outrageous property taxes by around 25%.

Great news for the residents of Florida.

"everyone must live within their means including government"

[He's a Lady]

what's the surprise....changing your mind is a woman's perogative!

[Tom]

Don Lance, propose to the gentleman to move on, get over it, he knew all along that he is purchasing a home that will have higher property taxes in comparison to the neighborhood! Just think about what his neighbors think about him and drop the discussion, he is too nosey anyway by asking you what you do for a living etc. I am in the same boat that he is in and many of my neighbors are as well, but they are not crying about it. It is what it is.
IF this proposal passes the new replacement taxes and fees are going to be passed down to the consumer of goods and services and the poorer people will be hurt the most.
To those who don't get it, this means in proportion to what a lower income person makes, the increase in his basic needs costs due to the sellers increases in sales taxes, services taxes and fees being passed through to the consumer(s), will proportionately be higher than a person of a higher income.
I can't but help to add that a snowbird will only pay when he is here and he will pick and choose IF he purchases any high priced taxable asset (car, boat) in Florida, and the TBRC's friends, the multiple real property owner will laugh their way to the bank.
BTW, How did McKay get his name on a scholarship using our taxpayer money? (McKay Scholarship). I think its time to change the name to something else that is more fitting for the times and because it is fully funded with taxpayer money.

Donald Lance. Blow off the tax-bot; he/she is always posing as a "concerned homeowner" but is just an ideologue who wants to see our governments' ability to regulate growth destroyed.

With common sense and the past experience of other failed "tax reform" ghetto states, we don't really need to argue the whole issue over again in FL, but if you persist, this person will, when pressed, just resort to name-calling.

And you are absolutely correct in lumping the "tax swap" in with all the other plans the GOP is fielding, because if they can't get TABOR, they will settle for piling on a multitude of plans which in the end have the same disasterous effect. As their traitorous guru Grover Norquist (best buddy of Jack Abramoff) has said, they want to "strangle government in a bathtub" and they don't mean for the benefit of you and me.

Vote NO on ALL GOP sponsored "tax reform" disasters.

ps - EVERY homesteaded homeowner in FL benefits from SOH and everyone gets treated the same.

You critics of any plan presented to try to give relief to those overburdened in property taxes have yet to propose a solution. Simply -- it is what it is, live with it and vote NO on everything. You justify that everyone is treated fairly, which even experts, the Tampa Tribune, and even our legislatures disagree. Apparently you don't have children that you hope will purchase a home and live near you some day. Where were you in 1992 when SOH was put on the ballot? Why didn't you warn everyone of the disastrous consequences it would have for our state. SOH is why our system is unfair today, yet its repeal would never be approved by its citizens. Especially citizens like you who have built up that subsidy and don't want anything to change. Portability has added to the problems that SOH has created. If SOH treated all the same, then a middle aged couple (with SOH exemptions) who moves into a $200,000 condo, would pay the same tax as their child buying a $200,000 condo. In actuality, the differences are and will be astounding.

Repeatedly I have asked "What is a better solution?" Honestly, I'm not convinced the swap IS. Repeatedly, you just bash me and try to depict me as someone other than I truly am (an overburdened homeowner). Repeatedly, you offer no other solutions.

SOH is a great tax scheme as it does not allow developers, speculators and newbies from high wage locations to bid property values up to the point that long standing residents would not be able to afford the taxes on Florida wages and the retirement incomes that results in.

Most people have never thought of the fact that even when they have completed purchasing their property from the bank they still have to rent the property rights from the government. That is something I find extremely disagreeable because it empowers elected officials and bureaucrats too much. Therefore, even while I benefit from SOH I would support eliminating all property tax in favor of a higher sales tax and or user fees.

As far as snowbirds getting the best of the deal and hurting he economy as a result there are ways to balance that such as having a one time non-homesteading tax when a property exchanges hands if is not going to be homesteaded from the onset.

At any rate the screaming match needs to end and those who sign up to play don't need to whine about the rules because they don't like the score at half-time!

8:55 am

Finally someone with an idea. In my opinion, it is an excellent idea and one that I believe the house recommended last year. As heard from the mouth of Senator Victor Crist; however, he claims it will never happen because the government believes they have more control over colleccting property taxes than sales taxes because if you don't pay they can take your property.

As to your comment re. screaming --- I can't hear anything, but I do see healthy debating which hopefully enables others to see both sides. As to equating peoples lives with a football game, I believe they are entirely different. I do agree; however, that SOH is a great tax scheme for the "long standing" homeowner. That's the problem. It discriminates against our children and even long standing homeowners who moved before portability was enacted.

Often in sports, rules are changed to make the game fairer. Nothing would change if people didn't speak up. Demand (whining) for property tax reform is why these proposals are being created and presented to the people to decide. Those who did sign up to play this game, have far more at stake than a 3 hour football game, making that score during and at the end far more critical. If some pay 2 to 3 times more in tax than others, then they may save 2 to 3 times more with this plan. That could help to even out the score. If something isn't done, than many will choose to quit the game and leave Florida as many have already done. Demands and/or whining will not stop until something is done!

8:00 8:55 10:42 12:45 Tax-bot. Does Grover pay you double for Sunday posts? Or is he making you do penance for the passage of Amendment 1?

This will be the largest tax increase in Florida history and will create chaos for all levels of governments --- OUR GOVERNMENTS.

This will be the largest tax increase in Florida history and will create chaos for all levels of governments --- OUR GOVERNMENTS.

Very few Floridians are anarchists.

This will also be the largest property tax decrease in Florida history.
Considering, we have one of the highest property taxes in the nation,
I REALLY LIKE THE PLAN.

GLAD THAT SPEAKER RUBIO & GOV CRIST IS ON BOARD TOO.

This will be the largest tax increase in Florida history and will create chaos for all levels of governments --- OUR GOVERNMENTS.

Very few Floridians are anarchists.