Tax swap would remain on ballot -- for now

Hotly contested ballot initiatives dealing with private school vouchers and a "tax swap" will remain on the statewide ballot if the Florida Supreme Court does not resolve the cases in relatively short order, according to the Department of State.

If the high court upholds circuit court rulings tossing the proposed amendments from the November ballot, the voting would just not be reported as an election result, said spokeswoman Jennifer Krell Davis. "It's much easier to tell a voter the item is no longer on the ballot than it would be to reprint the ballots," she said. "It just makes more practical sense."

The Department of State has an internal deadline of Friday Sept. 5 to certify the ballot, but it is not rigid, Davis said. Oral arguments in both cases are set for Sept. 8.

Mindful of the time crunch, the Supreme Court this afternoon asked the parties to file a response by Monday regarding when the decision has to be rendered "to allow for timely ballot distribution in accordance with all applicable laws."

Comments

Five
Alive.

good news. It must be a good deal for the little guy since there are so many wealthy people, companies and politicians against it. CUT OFF THE MONEY SUPPLY! Your cost are up my costs are up how do we change the way we spend? We cut back just like the state and schools need to do.

3:23 (lying neo-con) What do you mean cut off the money? I thought this was supposed to be about raising more revenue for schools through shifting the burden to sales tax? You mean it's not going to work? You mean it was all about strangling government after all?

I told you so!

Problem Solved!

How's that $240 working out for y'all?

Hahahahahahahaaaa...

Ready for screw job number two?

Hahahahahahahahahaaaaa...

There's a reason we call you Floriduuuuh!

A $10 billion/year hole in the school budget is not something we should create just because we want to save a few bucks a month in taxes. This is the epitome of selfishness. No on 5.

[Buzzard]

LOTTA money on the line here. Money buys influence. Careful who you trust.

But re needing more money for education, I heard a news piece recently saying used to be we needed to build new schools every year because of rising student population.But this year, the trend has reversed - no need for new construction because there is no growth in the student population. Anyone else hear that?

Egimication!… we don’t need no stinkin egimication! We’ins gots dem millegal migrains to cuts duh grass and dem neegras to washum dem floes… shoot, all we’ins need is dem wimins to cooks duh food n hump us’ins… den all we’ins need is a bar n a samich!

Dats why we'ins is ranked 50rd... all Floriduuuuh needs is us tards to payum dem taxes!

3:36 - it was never meant as a way to get MORE money for the schools... you know that, so stop your spin...

Quite frankly, there is much waste at the administrative level in the school districts... the teacher's union would do themselves a favor by attacking the waste instead of this proposal...

Since the initiatve requires to hold education harmelss for one year, do that - but don't feel there is a need or directive to replace all the money that will remain in taxpayers' pockets.

This approach will take care of the waste on all other levels of government - kinda give us a base line to work from... and then take the same approach in years 2 plus for education - make them justify the plentitude of administrators and staff that never see the inside of a classroom.

3:36 - it was never meant as a way to get MORE money for the schools... you know that, so stop your spin...

Quite frankly, there is much waste at the administrative level in the school districts... the teacher's union would do themselves a favor by attacking the waste instead of this proposal...

Since the initiatve requires to hold education harmelss for one year, do that - but don't feel there is a need or directive to replace all the money that will remain in taxpayers' pockets.

This approach will take care of the waste on all other levels of government - kinda give us a base line to work from... and then take the same approach in years 2 plus for education - make them justify the plentitude of administrators and staff that never see the inside of a classroom.

This approach will complete the planned destruction of Florida's education system, and bankrupt the State by March 2009.

Read it, live it, write it down!

Sure seems like a lot of worthless union committeeman and retail federation lobbyists keep a close eye on the blogs.

Why don't you folks support the people deciding how they want their government to finance public services and to what extent they will provide them?

Elitist and special interst groups are ruining this country and it is time for them to be put back in their place along with the rest of us.

Starve the beast, cut taxes and eliminate programs that equate to social and corporate welfare.

Can you say H-A-R-I-D-O-P-O-L-O-S!!!!!!!!!!

Let the people decide!!Keep the unions out of our schools!!

Hey, wasn't the NFIB (Nat'l Federation of Independent Business) making noise that they were going to run a constitutional amendment capping local government spending? Where the hell are they?

[Donald Lance]

I think you all are missing the bigger story that lies within here. In the event that the Supreme Court doesn't decide this and it remains on the ballot and passes, the Court can, at a later date, deem it unconstitutional and ban it from ever being enacted. So you can vote for it or against it, but with the Supreme Court not addressing this before the vote the outcome will be determined by the court over some technicality. When has this scenario ever happened in FL? The answer is to get this rectified before the elections take place, otherwise it's all just a sham.

Donald,

The Supreme Court will rule prior to the election, the point is they won't rule before the ballots are printed. Therefore, the amendment will be on the ballot, but votes will not be counted. It's a mute point anyway, there is no way the court will put this on the ballot.

[John Jay]

I hope Amendment 5 passes, but not for the reasons stated above.

Although Florida is an undertaxed tax State by all objective measures, our tax system is a mess, basically because we rely too much upon real estate taxes. As a result, we have the extremely high real estate taxes and a bunch of goofy and unfair stop-gap measures likes save-our-homes cap, which, let's face it, taxes people in identical situations differently.

Take me, for example. I personally pay 1/3 less taxes than my neighboors and we have identical houses on identical lots. But she moved in last year and I purchased 14 years ago. Is this a reason for her to pay my taxes? And yet, I could not afford my house except for this wacky practice.

Amendment 5 is our last chance to reform this mess. It will create a short-term crisis if the legislature fails to fund schools as required by the Amendment. But the voters will fry like a breaded fish any legislator or party that fails to fund schools.

I know Floridians hate the idea of an income tax. But one good thing about an income tax is that it taxes you when you have the ability to pay and stops taxing you when you don't. This is not true of real estate taxes which is why virtually all other states have some income tax and a lot lower real estate taxes. But you cannot get lower real estate taxes unless you come up with a replacement source.

[DS]

John Jay - Hallelujah! My sentiments EXACTLY!!!

Don't talk to me about taxes. The American people and the citizens of Florida are taxed too much. Why cant these spend happy legislators keep their hands out of my pockets. Everytime I make a little profit, and I mean a little profit, there they are taxing me to death. Then they have the FREAKIN bal-ls to give millions to CSX or other private companies who contribute huge amounts of money to their campaigns, or legislators get turkeys projects funded with our hard made dollars so they can make points to be elected again. MY tax bill came in today. The assessed value went down, but my taxable value went up. WHAT THE HECK IS THAT! Is this what Republicans call lower taxes? My darn insurance is so high I can hardly afford it. Drop like a rock my butt. I am just sick of this. I will not be a Republican anymore, I will not trust the Democrats to even get out of their own way. I will always vote for the 3rd party because they CANNOT do any worse then these buffoons have. STOP TAXING ME TO DEATH!!!!!!!!! Suddenly the Governor after signing the budget the legislature had the nerve to foist on us saying we have to tighten our belts because we don't have the the revenue so we must cut essential services, now says "if we got the dough its got to go" Give me a real real break.

I'm suprised frankly that the "We Should Vote On All Taxes" Republicans are throwing such a hissy fit over Amendment 5. What is even stranger is that it was Republican appointees that debated the ballot item during the Tax and Budget Commission, the same Commission that Sen. Haridopolos was an ex-officio of but never showed to meetings until the end. Guess he was busy writing that book that he is going to charge $100 per copy for the poor UF students that will have to hear his smathering crap.

Hey Sen. Haridopolos, your a good guy I'm sure, prove it by putting all the proceeds of your book towards Florida's Education Budget. Even if its a little bit, it all helps!

Jerks like Haridopolis keep getting elected because of people who have no clue they are being sold a bunch of
c r a p, who keep him in office. Where are the groups that can raise money to expose these half baked moron legislators. Have we sunk so low that not one decent person with a half wit would run for office? Or have we given it up to these truly disgusting, corrupt, vile, pond scum, self serving low lifes?

[ralph]

08:17 PM
It truly amazes and saddens me also that so many people pay so little attention. I blame it on voter apathy created by our present elected officials ability and willingness to divide and conquer using the unintended consequences of SOH's to pit voter against voter, thereby taking the focus off their lack of performance & leadership!

[Omega83]

Has anyone looked at how local government spending increases property values?

i.e. better roads, parks, schools, jobs, other infrastructure that generally raises demand for properties?

8:49 You are right on target. 8:54 Take a hike. Your story is getting very old.

6:43 - NFIB is a never-was group, and now they brought back Bill Hurley who ran them into the ground the first time, then went to the Retail Federation who was getting ready to can his butt. They have a sales force that sells memberships like the snake-oil salesmen of the past. They prey on tiny businesses that don't know any better. They won't produce squat.

The People deserve to vote on A5.

8:54 That issue gets taken care of by the locals. It is called election time. The local communities have had more and more laid on their lap from the legislature, now they find with the tax issue, they will not be able to fund many things that people want funded at the local level. But they also know what the limit is. They vote locally and control that spending locally

Hey John Jay why don't you demonstrate some leadership and integrity by sending in the maximum income tax that you would accept anyone having to pay.

Thankfully a 60% threshold could never be met in order to implement an income tax. Do you have any idea what an economic imbalance that would cause in this state. Do you thing young workers would just "pay up" in order to make it cheaper for non-inomce tax paying seniors and do-nothings that seem to find their way here from everywhere? No, they would demand higher wages to offset the loss in income and the cost of everything would go up. Those who are not able to make ends meet now would be hurt the worst because most of them do not pay property tax or pay very little but they would not be able to escape the higher cost for goods and services.

to 3:36 Cut off the money supply means just that. What has our great school system produced with the unlimited tax increases they have had in the past. They have done such a "great" job educating the kids so far and what you what is to allow them to take more money and do what with it? Bus the kids more? Why not bus them to Georgia? The schools up there are doing a lot better than Florida. Besides amendment 5 doesn't cut off funding to the schools it restricts the amount of tax they can get from the property owners and the state will have to close business loop holes to make up the difference. Since you don't seem understand the amendment maybe the court is correct is saying the wording is miss leading or maybe you are one of the business persons who oppose it. The money will be there for the schools it will just come from some one else. Why should we have so many untaxed sources of revenue. Why shouldn't there be a tax on legal services, charter fishing, golf, cpa service, advertising, etc.

[Tom]

Let us see. You take $11 billion away from the schools by eliminating the property tax revenues. Next year Sales tax collections will be $18 billion. The TBRC tied the hands of the legislature and capped any increase in Sales tax @ 1% giving back $3 Billion in tax revenues! I suggest we table Amendment 5 for this year and subject all Brokerage and Commission Fees to Gross Receipts Tax effective October 1. While we are at it, I think we need to change the name of the McKay Scholarship Program to the Florida Taxpayer’s Scholarship Program.

[Tom]

John Jay can you name a state that DOES NOY HAVE property taxes to fund state operations? Can you name a state other than New York, California and Texas that has a $70 Billion Budget? There is absolutely no way Florida is going to an income tax. Are you really suggesting the State tax Social Security, Retirement Income, and Interest Income etc.? I agree with Donald Lance repeatedly, and I just want to add to his commentary.

[Grover Norquist]

I agree with Donald McLance too. I hate YOUR government. They keep telling me (my big business cronies, I mean) that I can't pollute and pave over the entire planet. They keep telling me that we can't conintue to mine, drill, and pillage forever. This is un-American!! Send in the tanks! Prop 13 for everyone!!!

How's that $240 working out for y'all?

Hahahahahahahaaaa...

Ready for screw job number two?

Hahahahahahahahahaaaaa...

There's a reason we call you Floriduuuuh!

[Joe Schmo]

Although the best solution is a percentage-based property tax on all properties across the board, at least A5 helps correct the inequalities caused by A1 (and also SOH). Some of the hardest working Florida citizens are completely disadvantaged under the current system: small business, landlords, and renters. A5 finally could give them some relief and I will vote YES if given the opportunity.

A5:

1. gives a break to small business which helps the Fla economy
2. helps boost the real estate market
3. transfers a portion of the tax burden to tourists/out of staters
4. enables curtailing/lowering of rents

In a nutshell, unless you live on the street, you will benefit from A5.

Remember, every dollar a tourist pays, you don't.

[Joe Schmo - spin master for Grover and the gang.]

A5:

1. gives a break to flippers, developers, and out of state carpetbaggers which will more than offset anything they might pay in sales tax.

2. helps boost the real estate market (you know, the ones that screwed up our economy.)

3. eliminates solid revenue for schools in favor of a "voodoo" tax on sales which will not materialize. (and they know it!)

4. enables curtailing/lowering of rents (aka increases "profit" for "property managers" - another name for investors who went overboard in the housing market.)

In a nutshell, unless you already live on the street, you WILL eventually give all your money to us, the neo-cons who already control most of the wealth in this country. We want everything you have. We never have enough. We never stop

Remember, every dollar you save on your property taxes must be replaced from somewhere else, unless you want to live in a Prop 13 ghetto state with no new infrastructure, inadequate services, and a future of no jobs and huge debt for your kids.

[Thorny]

9:12 "4. enables curtailing/lowering of rents"

Wow! Since you just bent the needle on the BS Meter I'm wondering if you know of any real-world cost savings realized by Florida taxpayers after legislative reform? I'm particularly interested in past performance on issues such as education, insurance, energy, and transportation but anything will do. I'm guessing this is an easy request and I anxiously await your reply.

err legislative = constitutional

[Joe Schmo]

9:37 -

spin master? You're spinning my post every which way.

(1) First, my post discusses small business, landlords, and renter. It is misleading to group "flippers/developers" in with other real estate investors. Many are long range investors that have nothing to do with the real estate blowup/downturn/inventory issues that exist today.

(2) are you saying that helping the real estate situation by lower taxes is a bad thing? You would prefer that property tax remain sky high? You woudl prefer the market decline? And how is this helpful?

(3) Where did all the double and triple tax revenues go from 2000-2006? Did your services increase 2-3 times over? When you feed government too much revenue, it goes to waste. When you take it away, it forces efficiency.

(4) See #1

Thorny, yes I am saying that removing 25%+ of rental properties tax burden would curtail/lower rents. Some landlords would pass some of it on, driving the others to comply through natural price competition.

[Joe Schmo - spin master for Grover and his gang.]

Joe Schmo is repeating the tired old TaxWatch mantra about drunken spending - for which he has not a shred of proof. All his arguments for strangling local government eventually devolve to that one unprovable piece of market-tested spin. Local government is YOUR government - it works for you, creating infrastructure and services whch you request. It also protects you from pollution and unregulated growth by the Joe Schmo greedy developers of this world. YOu know, the ones that created this recession with their poor business decisions and now want a big bailout.

Local govenment is not the problem, it is the solution. You control it, it works for you, don't believe the hype and don't let them take it away in exchange for state control. Don't allow the fanatics to use YOUR government as their scapegoat.

[Donald Lance]

Can anybody tell me how many people the state of Florida employs? I can find labor market stats, but no govt employment stats?

[Joe Schmo]

Holy cow. We control local government? Wow.

There are two types of people in this world. One says "tax me, tax me, tax me", so I can overpay the local government to pay four guys to fix my sidewalk. One to work and three to supervise, screw up it up, and dig it up and fix it again the next week.

Then there's the person that would rather work hard for his own money, keep it, and fix the sidewalk himself.

Where did all the triple tax revenue go again?

Joe Schmo - lies and exaggeration.

[Joe Schmo - spin master for Grover and his gang.]

Then there's the person that would rather work hard for his own money, keep it, and build his own roads, educate his own kids, chase down his own criminals, put out his own fires, treat his own sewage, purify his own drinking water, collect his own garbage...

OK, I guess he can only talk about doing those things. But I'm sure those governments are spending like drunken sailors blah blah blah triple tax revenue blah blah blah.

Lying fascist dipstick.

Please, what a bunch of nonsense some of you come up with.

Government tax revenue at every level exploded for a few years and most al of them became extremely wasteful not to mention overextended into activities government has no business.

Take essential services and vital infrastructure like police, fire, education, transportation, water/sewer etc. off the table. Then hold a line item vote on all other municipal and state programs. Require 50% approval for passage. How many would pass when facing the full electorate, 20% maybe?

Government paid for by the people and run on behalf of limited special interest groups has to come to an end.

Lets vote on it!

Joe Schmo you are overlooking important points. First of all the property tax revenues have doubled over the last 4-5 years and if your real estate tax bill didn't then the money had to come form some where. So where do you think it came from? It's not from flipper, wealthy residents, insurance companies, health care, big business, lawyers, cpas, golf fees, advertising companies, the newspapers, charter fishing or any other of the non taxed services and companies who, buy the way use the very same infrastructure, water sewer etc as you. It's from land lords, snow birds with winter homes, commercial and retail properties. I'm not going to go into what effect each of these have on the over all economy but if you have any education and can think clearly about economics you should be able to understand the negative impact related to these individual items. Amendment 5 is not just about a lower property tax it's about bringing in revenue form those who are paying nothing at all. No one likes to pay taxes but we all need to pay our fair share and that is the problem in Florida. What is fair about the tax system now? Nothing, how can we ask a few to pay for the many? The results are already coming in. Less jobs will mean less people buying homes, less moving into the state, less spending and on and on. All leading to less revenue for the state and unless the state if forced to cut back and find other tax revenue they will look at your tax bill. Have you seen how your property value has gone but the millage rate has gone up? It's smoke and mirrors when it comes to anyone who doesn't support 5. You will pay more just like anyone else. People need to think about what is the future 5 or 10 years from now. Do a little math. Say you are 55 and will retire in 10 years your tax is now 1800.00 but if you add the 3% each year by the time you retire your tax will be 2419.00 and by the time you are 75 it grows to 3250.00. Hope you don't plan to live on a fixed income. Think, read educate yourself.

[Bottom line - you get what you pay for.]

2:33 Is right seniors - do the "responsible" thing and stick it to your grandkids. You won't be alive when their dismal education fails to land them a job and they have to pay off all the debt we you took on by underfunding government to save yourself a few tax dollars. Let them live poor and on credit - it's the new American way!

[Joe Schmo]

Spin master,

Your response was very predictable...from both the content and name calling. No need, dude!

Lying? Honestly I wish I were - if I was lying, then local government would be the well-tuned machine of efficiency that you obviously think it is and my tax bills would be half of what they are.

When your a little older and wiser, you'll realize that what you get out of life comes from your own hard work and accountability...not government.

One more time - where did all the triple tax revenue go again?

[Joe Schmo]

2:33 - you're basically saying the same things I've been saying - I agree. Yes, my tax bills have tripled over the past years - yes, yes, agreed. Yes, it's absolutely unfair - I agree. Where did the triple tax revenue go? Poof? What have I gotten from it? Squat. A5 starts to even the playing field and give those groups you mentioned some relief. Going back to my orignal post - those groups - small business, etc - are some of the hardest workign Floridians and they are ones with the worst tax burden.

Soooo, trim notices have come out, aye!

How's that $240 working out for y'all?

Hahahahahahahaaaa...

Ready for screw job number two?

Hahahahahahahahahaaaaa...

There's a reason we call you Floriduuuuh!

[Thorny]

Joe Schmo I appreciate your response but you didnt answer the question. Has anything that ever came out of Tally ever, ever saved you money? I cant recall any of my bills going down. You seem convinced they will this time. What historical evidence do you base your assumptions? I would say youre speculating? Wanna buy a bridge?

Tom don't hate

Why is the Retail group, advertising group, newspapers and teachers union so afraid to let the people vote? Why did they spend so much money to influance a judge to vote it confusing? Sounds like the voters are smarter than the judge! Let the people vote!

9:05 how is it getting old?

true or false. property adjacent to or near good public infrastructure is in higher demand, and is thus more valuable.

It's basic economics.

Shouldn't the will of the People matter? Let the People vote on A5.

[Joe Schmo]

Thorny, the difference this time is the fundamental transfer from property tax to sales tax. Florida residents win. Example: Your have a $5K tax bill. A 25% reduction saves you $1250 a year. At a 1% sales tax hike, you have to spend $125,000 per year on taxable goods for the plan NOT benefit you. OK, say 2% - that's $62,500 per year. I understand the additonal of other taxable services - but that's just not going to tip the scales on that calculation....

Now, if you are a small business owner or a landlord, i.e. the groups that have gotten totally screwed over the last years, you benefit even more because your personal home and sales tax spending are the swap - your business property is straight benefit. Therefore you have even greater ability to do things such as: lower prices, lower rents, pay your staff more, etc, etc...boosting the local economy.

Point #2, which actually overrides everything else IMO, is that transferring property tax to sales tax is one of the only ways to transfer taxes OUT OF STATE. Tourists pay a portion of sales tax, and therefore every dollar a tourist pays, YOU DON'T.

...I am also not mentioning the benefit to first time home buyers, who are in a terrible spot in the current system.

Thanks for the kind rebuttal.

[Thorny]

Joe, Im reading that response as a big ole NO. Aren't you tired of being sold on a lie? What makes you think you can speak for thousands of Floridians? How do you know they wont take the extra money and stick it in their pocket like the insurance companies, the power companies, and every other hustler that got a break from Tally?

Amendment 5 for those of you who can't understand the wording means less money for the schools from property tax. That doesn't mean less money for the schools, just where the money will come from. So if you want a little break on your tax bill just vote yes.