Can Tampa Bay survive without an enforcer?

A lot has been made about how the Lightning will handle its enforcer duties after Andre Roy left as a free agent. Do they really need one? Can "team toughness" overcome the lack of one. We got two views in today's paper. Coach Barry Melrose said we shouldn't count out tough guy David Koci making the team out of camp. "One thing I've made very clear to my stars is they will always be protected, and that's going to happen here," he said. "As long as I'm coach here, you will never see one of our stars taken advantage of."

But hockey ops chief Brian Lawton said the concept of team toughness also is valid, and he spoke of guys such as Ryan Malone, Nick Tarnasky, Evgeny Artyukhin, Chris Gratton and even Vinny Lecavalier as more than willing and able to take care of themselves. Besides, he added, the Lightning is an "enormous team." He actually is right about that. Tampa Bay's projected top 13 forwards average 6 feet 2, 210 pounds. That's the biggest group of forwards in the league. Believe me, I went through every team and checked. And as Lawton said, "Team toughness is the greatest responsibility and bonding a team can do," he said. "We have a group of guys that I can already tell already will use this to bring themselves together. ... Tell me who Detroit's heavyweight is. Tell me who their middleweight is. They do it with more puck possession and skill. We'd like to follow that model. But we'd also like to back that up with size, and we feel we have that."

Okay, before all you Wings fans start bringing up Aaron Downey, remember he played just 4 minutes a game and was not much of a factor in the playoffs. The point Lawton was trying to make is there really isn't room on the Lightning's roster for a four-minute player, and fighting is not that much of a factor in the playoffs anyway.

What's the right answer? Can Koci play a regular shift, even though, as he said, his skating needs to improve?

Also thought Melrose's Q&A was interesting, especially the part about carving out a section in front of the net where much more physical play is allowed. "The hacking and whacking and cross-checking, so the guy has to have some grit to get in there, where you can't go in there with no pads the way you basically can do it now. That should be an area of highly fought over ice," he said.

And I loved this quote: "I never want to get to a point in my life when cowards can play hockey."

If you haven't read the Q&A, I suggest it. It is well worth your time, and then tell me what you think of Melrose's idea to make it tougher to stand in front of the net. I think the whole enforcer issue for Tampa Bay and Melrose's comments are great for debate. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Comments

[bigbrother]

The nude antics of contestants on Australia's Big Brother have prompted politicians to demand a review of how much nudity can be shown on TV.
http://www.bigbrotheraustralia.net

[ajax]

PD, If they traded Vinny and I felt it would help the franchise, I would let Vinny go and pull for the new players.
Your belief is they could win with what they had (history proved that a miserable failure) My belief is the star system was a horrible wrong turn, as I for one believe hockey, more than any sport on the planet, needs a very deep team to win it all. Drastic difference of opinion between You and I. At least my theory has a chance. Your theory when laced up had the worse team in all of hockey and was getting worse (and I am 110% sure Vinny would of left if "status quo" was kept)
We won the Cup with everyone playing even minutes. Vinny and Brad and Marty were 18-20 minutes a night. Danny Boyle was a last option on Penalty Kills. The stars on the team got older and better but were bumped up to 27 minutes a night. From a distance someone might say, that is great, you have your best players on the ice for most of the time. No other coach in the history of hockey had this theory(or better to say was stuck with this option) It Just Didn't Work. That is not hate, bias, kool aid etc etc. It is an undeniable (to most) fact. Three years ago they made choices, at the time I thought they were horrible choices. I can say with 110% honesty the morning they gave RIchards 39 million I knew it was the beginning of the end. The trickle down effect would kill the balance of the team. I think 92% of the blog, and 100% of the hockey media in other cities knew within days that Tampa Bay had committed way to much money to their 3 forwards. The only way it could ever work is top end salary cap and deep cheap farm system. Reality not bias or hate dictates that we do not have that. Hence something, something technically business sound, had to be done. It was. You hate it. I am not sure I love it, but I am 110% sure it had to be done. I love the Bolts more than any sport franchise on the planet. Gators distant 2nd, Bucs off the chart 3rd. No player is above the organization. I loved Boyle, I hated his contract. Good decision for "us" to trade him/contract. No hate anywhere in my decision making. Ditto Brad.

[Don in St. Pete]

Pd, Sorry but Ajax is right. The new owners were smart enough to recognize this, and they executed their plan. I like what we have now better than at any time since 04'. Those delusional enough to deny this are veiwing the progress through blinders or blinded by loyalty to former players, coaches and management. We were dead last and you expected the new owners to stand pat and play for 29th place as a sign of improvement? We're supposed to just keep losing so we can get the #1 pick every year? Personally, I'd prefer to be rooting for the Bolts in the playoffs not at the draft table in Montreal next June.

[PD]

Totally wrong Ajax, non sensical actually.

See Torts comments on all.

Oh I forgot you have a pathological hate on for him too.

[ajax]

PD time after time your blogs talk about the star that got away. I don't think it is I who is prejudiced toward Brad, just the opposite. Your statement about "few of us get" is completely opposite. PD you are in the severe minority that thinks Brad and 7.8 mil can ever be discussed in the same sentence with "best value" Keep the diamonds you say. We did and in less than 3 years we went from the best team in the league to the worst. I doubt if that ever has happened in the NHL. And by far the biggest reason for that was the signing of three forwards for 45-50% of the payroll.
PD in your honest unbiased opinion, who is a better value?? Vinny and Marty? or Brad and Danny? 100% of this blog would say Vinny and Marty. By the way that is what NEW management decided to go with. And by the way, by keeping them you would also save 2.34 million on the cap. PD this should be an eye opening, argument closing stat, but your love for Brad blinds you. Like I have always said, different opinions make the world go round.
IF we would of stayed put this is the hard facts. 7 players
Vinny Brad Marty Prospal Boyle Kuba and Stamkos would eat up 36.8 million of cap space. To get to 47 million that would leave 10 million for 13 players. Someone help me here. I am biased?? I am dillusional?? Even with spending the entire cap of 56 mil you would have only 19 million for 13 players (and Homer would still be in net by the way) I have to take a chill pill. Even in the fantasy world of us spending 56 million we would have 5 stars on one end and 7 minimum wage bums on the other end. That is not opinion, that is the sad reality. How do I know this?? I witnessed it firsthand the last two years. Just my opinion but something had to be done and keeping the diamonds all together put us in the pokey.

[PD]

You dont have remotely the talent Montreal does. Don't project Don because you are really embarrasing yourself..ask Torts

[Don in St. Pete]

Ajax, You are right again! Leo and PD are delusional. When we won the AStaley Cup it was a team effort, not a dominant effort by a few stars. Remeber that word guys, TEAM, because that's what we have this year. We do have a few stars, but not as many as before, and yet we have much like what the sHABs have which is maybe why Leo is trying to discourage us but we have some parity between lines, and offensive threats throughout. Makes us much harder to defend IMO, but what do I know, I've only been playing and watching hockey for 45 years. I predict a breakout season for the Bolts once they get used to playing with one another and a SE title and presing for 1st in the east. 1 More move OK.

[PD]

Uh no Ajax you keep your entire core and let the others be the sideshow.
I know its difficult but your entire argument is based on a severe Brad prejudice , that's why it makes no logical sense.
Maybe emotionally for you though on some level that few of us get.

Heres another clue , no matter which way you go you can't buy a playoff team , so you keep the diamonds and develop the drafts.

[ajax]

I was talking to a buddy about this conversation and he had the perfect answer to make some happy.( I wish I would of thought of it, drats) We should of traded Vinny and Marty and kept Brad and Danny. Of course Brad and Danny have a 2.5 million higher cap hit than Vinny and Marty but those two are without a doubt a better bang for the buck than Vinny and Marty. Silly me not to see this undeniable truth. Thank-you Jesus for bringing us "Hollywood" and trying to make us a hockey team versus a sideshow.
Could this make it any clearer about the moves made.
Vinny Marty and Prospal have a cap hit of just 1 million more than Richie and Boyle. Talk about simple math. When you look at that, man, slap me silly, I sure think they should of kept Brad and Danny. WOW.

[PD]

Don and Ajax would go broke quickly in the car business.

Trading a Lexus for 2 fords and a chrysler fills up the driveway a bit more and allows the family to be in a couple of places at once, but next year guess where the value is and the year after and the year after.

Richards is one of the best young talents in the game ,a point machine. He got his contract for winning the Conn Smythe award as the best player in the playoffs , kinda what defines a gamebreaker.

You never give those guys up.You build around them with young talent.

Never did get Ajax's wierd hate for Brad.

[léo]

Again with the if, if, if, if.
Would I trade Crosby for Detroit City's whole 2nd line and 1st line D? Yes. But not for yours, Stammy excluded. Crosby was injured...
It's not 120 vs 250, Don. It's 120 vs 5 X 50. It may look the same but it isn't.
Of course, if you're rebuilding and have no money and no shot at going to the Dance, of course you take the 5 X 50 INSTEAD. But if it comes to choice when you're BUILDING, what then? Spanking new team. You got nobody yet. Just empty uniforms. You're given the choice between 5 50pters or a Star, what then?
Leo takes the Star. because he knows that he can build around the Star MUCH BETTER than 5 50pters.
Now Crosby was just an example of the quarter to dollar theme and too much of Star (+ Malkin, doesn't work) to adequately analogize on it so I will use your V4 theme. V4 was injured...
V4 for Toranna's 2nd line and 1st line D, wouldja?
V4 for OUR 2nd line and 1st line D, woudja?
If it's either 5 guys or fans in the stands, ok, you get the 5; I see the point but Stars are GAMEBREAKERS. Those 5 guys aren't.
If, if, if. Well, manage your ifs! Don't take Havlat is all! Get somebody solid and make sure he doesn't get hit by a meteorite! If, if, if...
Gimme Sid the Kid over ANY 5 50pters anytime cuz you could put a radioactive monkey beside him and the primate'll do better than ALL those 50pters, even fans in the stands if you don't have enough.
Last thing,
This argument is attached to the talent to talent ratio subject and not the TB manoevers for x-players subject.
P.

[Don in St. Pete]

Leo, I should have qualified my statements regarding the Crosby question. If I'm PITT, I don't trade Crosby regardless as he is the face of the franchise, much like Vinny is here. However, if your a hypothetical expansion franchise and have Crosby and need more then you definitely make that trade. You get 250 points production rather than 120. That's a no brainer but within the circumstances, it's all about what your needs are and what the return is. If you need that one primary playmaker and you have the spare parts to deal you trade for Crosby. If on the other hand ( like the bolts last season ) you have multiple gaping holes, you trade Crosby for the multiple bodies to plug the holes. Tell me......if the sHABs had multiple talented extra forwards and defense, don't they try to swing that deal for a V4? On the other hand if hypothetically the sHABs have a run of bad luck and Kmoisarek breaks a leg, Kostistyn gets a concussion and Hamrlik seperates a shoulder, do you try to trade Kovalev to plug the multiple whole, or do you just cash in the season and wait til next year?

[ajax]

By the way "core" gang. If you look at the raise to Vinny, the raise to Danny, the raiase to Prospal and the addition of Stamkos to the cap. Have any of you looked at that in your argument? If we did all of that, our team would of been identical to last year and we would of added like 10 million in cap. Ahhhh didn't think so. So the net/net is we would of actually had to bring in additional minimum wage players to meet the projected 47 million (by the way how exactly could we find cheaper forwards, we already had that market severely cornered) So reality is the keeping of the core would of meant the same last place team, only with a higher payroll, more minimum wage bums, and Stamkos. Just me but I would of never renewed if they stood pat with the same exact lineup. It would break my heart to see Marty and Vinny bent over at midice after another gruelling 28 minute night of losing to the Panthers.Just me but you must really really really love Richards and Boyle to want some more of that medicine. Yuk.

[ajax]

I will be pithy. Old management vs new management, this versus that. If anyone on this planet thinks Brad Richards at 7.8 million per year is a better bang for the buck than what Hollywood and company have been doing, well you and the other 2% of the hockey world know something that the other 98% are blind to. Nothing against Brad, but how can you talk value and talk about keeping the core.
Was he the best player in the NHL in 2007 and 2008, he was paid to be. Is he going to be the 3rd best player in 2009? He is paid to be. But we should converse about best bang for the puck and start out with we should of kept Richie, talk about stubborn.

[léo]

Again Ajax, you look on Brad with prejudice.
I'm talking about the player. Not the player in TB.
And for the love of Pete, I am NOT, by any means AGAINST the moves of the organization.
The ONLY thing that rankled me was the extra 1st round pick to Ott. Kuba/Picard shoulda been enough. never said anything else. Yes or no?
And the ONLY thing I got against the team NOW, is what all of yehs know, is that there's NOT ENOUGH. Non-withstanding the trades. Got nothing to do with the trades where I'm comin' from.
I just got back from Mars right now, ok Ajax? After ten years, ok? I look at TB, ok? Have no idea what's been happening the last 10 years, ok? I look. Not enough. And no D. That's what I see. Even if last year's team was comprised of the 2nd division Bratislava club, ok? Talkin' about what I see NOW.
Given that, I add that I've said a 100 times that you'll definitely be better, even if it's not enough.
Now the OTHER point, the "tangent" I referred to, is this Mezzy to Boyle and Brad to Malone ratios that have been intermingling with the first subject so that arguing a point of one of them means you're arguing a point of the other.
That's not the case.
All year, I was screaming to "dump" Brad, Ajax, remember? I even suggested a trade for Samsonov so that you could buy him out and spend the new 8mil on someone else, remember?!
I honestly think that with the division you're in, as is, TB stands a good chance to make the playoffs. As is! No D included. Get a num1 D?
And you'll take the S-E.
So what do you wanna talk about?
TB's new management roster shuffle?
Or comparing talent between players?
For me, those are 2 different subjects.
P.

[ajax]

1st and foremost the money spent poorly always falls under the Richards contract. Do we have to go down that road again?? When the cap was 40 million we had 3 of the top 12 paid players in the league and Richards had the biggest cap hit in the entire NHL. He had the biggest cap hit when the payroll went to 45 million. He had the biggest cap hit when the payroll went to 51 million and now when the cap is at 56 million and 3 full years later he still has the 3rd highest cap hit in the entire league. And you accuse Koules of still spending foolishly? When you talk about Feaster and what he would do with money you shoot all your toes off. He had his blank check and he went with 3 forwards and 6 AHL players. When all is said and done the team won't be spending gobs over last year. In fact just adding Stamkos's cap will be the only real net difference. Stamkos and no other changes would make this a "much" better team??? Please. You all ignore the fact that we had the three top forwards in minutes for a long period of time last year. It didn't work and yet you keep saying we should of kept the core. If we end up at 47-49 million we still are 7-9 million lower than the big market teams, and if 33 million is tied up with 6 guys it doesn't take a genius to figure out we still have to have about 5 minimum wage guys bringing up the 3rd and 4th line and horrible #5-6 Dmen. It doesn't work.
The model Chicago and NYR use??? Who would want that model?? they have made the playoffs twice in ten years spending big on forwards. And you keep saying Detroit and Anaheim. They both have 20 million spent on Dmen. Even with Boyle and his 6.7 mil we didn't have even 12 mil spent. It was all 3 forwards.
You win the argument "if" we spend 56 million and "if" we have young talent that is signed for 850k for 3 years and can actually contribute. You put Darche Mcdonald etc with Crosby and Malkin (especially with Torts) and I guarentee those guys have to play 26 minutes a night and I guarentee they stink. With all of your scenarios you somehow forget we are in Tampa not mMontreal or Toronto or Philly or NEW York.
Would I want Crosby Ward Darche etc or the 6 forwards we got?? I'll take the 6 we got. We had two of the top 10 scorers in the entire NHL two years ago. The leading goal scorer in the entire NHL, and our "team" was realistically about the 19th best team in the league. Watch Pittsburgh, just watch them and see what giving Malkin and Crosby 19 million does to that small market team. I have read article after article saying their GM is really in a bind this year, and Malkin's number doesn't hit till next year. They've already been hit with the same choices we had and they have taken a step backwards from last year. Do you see their potential starting 6 Dmen?? ANd they will have like 12 UFA's this year and Malkin hitting the cap sheet at like 7.5 per year. They better save lots of money or once again the star system versus the team system will be severely tested in little ole Pittsburgh.
Detroit can afford Zetterberg and Datsyuk and Lindstrom because they make 5x the money we make and they will spend the cap limit every year. Not to mention their farm system has guys playing 18 minutes a night on the 2nd line for 850k. 8 million more to spend breaks down to replacing those 5 bums making 550k with 5 guys all making 2.2 million each. That my friends is a huge advantage and a huge upgrade to your team. And you say if if if if if.
I made a list of Richie plus four forwards or a list of the 5 guys we got. You changed the argument to say we should of kept Richie and signed Malone and Vrbata to play with him.
My daughter wants an Escalade and wouldn't that be nice but it isn't reality. Either is the conversation of keeping all the stars and having a 56 million dollar payroll. IF if if if if. Reality with either Koules or Feaster is best bang for the buck. Your theory of Richie and Company is not really a question is it?/ That is a proven failure.
At least the new formula has a chance to succeed. If we finish dead last again I suppose we are both wrong. But the fact remains that your formula has already been tried and was stinky, very stinky.

[PD]

There is nothing to say to that brother.
Pretty craaazy.

[léo]

Just referred to that link with rbc. Everything is "interesting" if they say what you wanna hear. rbc calls Tolensky's article "factual". Doesn't make it so.
If Tolensky had said that he DIDN'T think Mezzy's 24mil contract was a good one (like half of OTHER articles do), y'all would said he doesn't know hockey.
And if you actually think Shero would "jump on that deal in a heartbeat", Don? I...I...I don't even know what to say to that, Don.
I wonder what the thought on that might be on a Pitt blog.
P.

[Don in St. Pete]

Leo, It happens often enough to cost a lot of teams respectability if not a chance at a cup. However with us last year we played .500 hockey without Dan Boyle, much worse without him. I think you're wrong and that Ray Shero would jump on that deal in a heartbeat. I certainly would. Here's a interesting link, an in-depth analysis of the Meszaros deal by Tolensky on hockeybuzz.com

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=16650&blogger_id=51

[léo]

If, if, if, if, if.
How many times do guys get injured on your team, ferpetessakes? Heck's going on down there?
What if he DOESN'T get injured, Ajax? What if everything goes RIGHT, as is NORMALLY the case? What then?
I'd rather have Crosby than your WHOLE 2nd line and your 1st line of D, even though, 5 against 1, your 5 guys would beat Crosby in a pickup game. On that, you're absolutely right.
Hey, Crosby could get injured too. And then it would be over because the apes I got with him would do ZERO, totally agree.
But if he DOESN'T get injured, my apes finish the season with 52 points each and a +17 rating.
Would you trade your whole 2nd line and 1st line of D for Crosby, Ajax? Yes, you would. Would Pitt? No, they wouldn't, even though they would get FIVE quarters for their dollar, a profit!
I know Brad isn't Crosby; I am using a radical example to better frame my point.
Which is, you ALWAYS take the 80-pt scorer instead of 2 40-pt scorers.
I can't help but notice that this tangent of our discussions has completely deviated off-subject, which now eludes me.
P.

[PD]

Here is where Ajax and Don are totally disengenuous in their ego driven aruments Leo.
If Feaster had the same payroll that krazy koules has now then then wouldnt have to trade stars for hamburger.

They could have Brad, Vinny, Marty Boyle and Stmkos for 30 mill give or take. Thats the model the Wings use, the Hawks, The rangers, Pitt etc

They have spent the money very poorly and if ticket sales are bad now, wait till Nov.

Those two will die before admitting they are wrong.

[Casper]

Dollar vs. four quarters theory gets hamstrung when the dollar goes down with an injury. You're out a big honkin' buck.

When one of the quarters goes down, you've still got 75 cents. Clubs have nickel and dimed their way in through the back door of the playoffs with less.

Paying the Big Dollar forced us to play pennies who, literally played like they were watching for, and tripping over pennies in the ice.

I'm witholding judgement until after the usual Lightning November Swoon. But this year will be, as they say on Monty Python, "completely different".
It will be fast, and better be some hittin' goin' on...

Go Bolts!

[ajax]

Here is the rub.
The new guys aren't Brad and Danny.
But the new guys aren't Janik Ward Darche Mcdonald Roy and Karllson either.
This ain't baseball where you have the same starting 8 all year.
This isn't BBall where 5 guys play 90% of the minutes.
The net is:
Do you want Richie and 4 minor leaguers or,
Do you want 5 proven NHL players.
Seems to be an easy answer to me, but I guess not.
Pick a list:
Richards Mcdonald Roy Darche Karlsson or:
Vrbata Halpern Malone Arty Jokinen. Throw in Roberts and Recchi (they are better at age 50 than Mcdonald and Roy)
how do you spell no-brainer??
There are probably some people in the NHL who would rather have Malone straight up over Richie.
And by the way do you know the RIchie list probably cost just the same?? no-brainer.

[léo]

Who GAVE those contracts to Brad and Boyle, Don? You did. And WHEN was the Boyle one given? Like, 2 weeks ago? (I exaggerate)
If you thought 6.6 was too much, why'd you JUST give it to him? To trade him?
Well you shoulda got a guy who was worth 6.6 in EXCHANGE, no matter if he made a buck and a quarter for every shift.
Not disputing the CONTRACTS. I called Brad's contract the "ball'n'chain all year long. DUMPING him was brilliant. The dead-line deal for Brad to Dal was a master-stroke; said that all along.
Brad Richards in TB at 7.8 for Smith in TB for (I don't know)? Glorious! Nevermind the vigorish.
Not disputin' the contracts or trades; I'm talkin' about the exchange of Talent.
Just because you have more depth at the forward position does not give you a "potent offense", Don.
Ain't tryin' to rag ya; I'm just...worried about ya, mate.
There's NO WAY any of your new folk can do what Brad or Boyle could do, much less as well.
Surely you understand that? For the record, Don, I believe you that more is coming. It's gonna get done cuz it's GOTTA get done, right?
So let's see who else is comin'!
P.

[Don in St. Pete]

Ajax, I agree with you 100%. Richy was an unneeded luxury because at $7.8 mil per we couldn't afford to pay any wingers that could score to play alongside him. He'll me missed on the PP but now we have Mez and Carle. Boyle was a luxury because at $6.55 mil per we couldn't afford to pay a top two to play beside him. Defensively he was only better than Kuba among our d last year. So essentially we had 1 line, a PP QB and no top 2 defensemen. While they haven't done as well on the D as I had hoped, they plugged the glaring holes and added some potent Offense. 1 more deal for a shutdown type defenseman.

[léo]

I understood completely, Ajax. I told you to diregard the year in IB and you didn't. What, is Boyle injured now? Is Boyle gonna only play 6 games this year too? Was that the deal? SJ knew that? C'mon.
As fer Brad, I TOTALLY accept the POSSIBILITY that he's finished. I know that's harsh but I'll say it, to be fair.
But I don't think so.
Give you a comparison: Samsonov.
Sammy dissappeared. Lost it. And can't accuse Us this time cuz it was worse in Chi.
Then he rebounded with the Caners.
Here's my question: Would you take him? Aaaah, you see? You see what Leo's sayin'?
NOW would you take Brad?
A radical example, I know. Point is, last year was horrorshow in TB, Ajax.
What am I, blind? You think I didn't understand what was going on last year with V4 playing 47min a game, every game?
It's BECAUSE you didn't have 20 players THEN that you didn't make it, I know that.
But guess what? You could wrap my uncle Bert in a Bolt-uni and call HIM a player but that don't make it necessarily so, mate. You don't have 20 NOW, even if you got fifty guys drawing paychecks from Kouliwood.
So "Mezzy and Carle are lite years better than Boyle and Janik"? I don't know, Ajax. I don't know if I agree with that, mate. That might be the one that's too much.
Again, it's just mho. Even if I'm dead right or dead wrong about this, if YOU'RE happy with it? If you guys think your D has improved, état pour état, from 6months ago to now?
Then it's all good for Leo and let us say no more.
So let's go.
P.

[ajax]

Leo you miss so much of the point. Brad Richards could only play 27 minutes a night.(and be ineffective because of it) Danny Boyle could only play 31 minutes a night and barely be able to stand at the end of the night. The rest of the game was filled was Darche and Janik and McDonald and Lundin. Malone isn't Richards, but Vrbata sure the heck ain't any of the Fab 5 that we dumped.
Mezzy and Carle are lite years better than Boyle and Janik. Your opinion firmly belies the eternal truth of hockey. You need 20 players to win.
We would never ever ever get better if we had kept all the "names" and filled the bottom half of the roster with 7 guys making 550k that not one other team in the entire league would want. I don't think that is opinion, I think two straight years, sorry 3, of diminishing returns validates that.
For me I want to believe we will at least be competitive this year. Last year I truly felt if everyone spilled their guts for 60 minutes we would win 4-3 in OT. Then the next night we would lose 6-2. We have got alot of proven NHL bodies. How could anyone consider that a wash over the garbage we had last year. Matthew Darche was loved by our coaching staff. A 30 year old career minor leaguer with 10 career goals. That was how truly bad our roster was. He is earmarked for Buffalo's AHL team. Somehow I think I am fighting the minority here so I will take a deep breath. This team is not Cup ready but they have made dramatic improvements. If they can play .500 until they get to really know each other, they will be strong in the second half. You can't get 8-10 new guys and not have some growing pains. Anywho I had a wish list last year, and almost everything on it has been hit. I loved Danny Boyle, but we didn't need 1 Danny Boyle's we needed about 3 Paul Rangers. We didn't need 1 Brad Richards we needed 3 Forwards. We needed a professional goalie, I think we got one. AHHHHHHHH When you get rid of 5 forwards that are career drifters somehow somewhere you have done something right!!!

[léo]

New rule: Not allowed to appropriate oneself with Leo's signature turns of speech. I know they're brilliant, but they're mine. Mine, mine, mine, no touch!
Now then,
You both bring up excellent points.
In the final analysis, Ajax, I would indeed exchange all your old players (removing Stammy; PD is right) for all your new ones, IF ONLY, (and here, YOU were right, Ajax) for the goalie improvement. Y'all know how I felt about that.
And PD is absolutely right to temper your verve, for though you have probably, even quite possibly, gotten better, you have to remember that you finished last.
So let's say you have a 25pt improvement at the end of 2009, Ajax. Does that put you in the playoffs? See the point?
Hey, I love koolaid. I want TB to do good. Who else in the S-E could Leo POSSIBLY cheer for?
And I know I earlier said Vrbata-who?, as well, but I meant it as: Where does he come from? Can he handle the pressure? Don't give me the Col angle, they switched him after a year and a half as a kid. This is Vrbata's 5th team in 8 years. He can score but who the heck is he and what did the 4 teams previous have against him?
So yes, though you are improved, the question is: as an example: disregarding TB history, objectively speaking, if you were ANOTHER team with no preconceived prejudice towards anybody, just pure hockey-sense,
Brad? Or Malone/Vrbata?
Boyle? Or Mezzy/Carle?
Quantity does not equal quality.
So c'moooon, Smitty-baby! You're up!
P.

[PD]

Most contending teams go with 5 guys at around 30.
Since Kool Kooles is spending max cap anyway, I guess I prefer to point out that he has spent it badly.
As our shab friend rightly points out its a losing strategy to turn a dollar into 4 quarters.
But quaff it down buddy, we will all find out soon enough.
If it works I'll be at the cooler too.

If it doesn't the franchise is screwed.

[ajax]

Never a personal attack. Never. That is another person on this blog you must be thinking about. My point for two years has been the balance of our team. That is when you know you really have a "team" In a perfect world we would have Brad and Danny "and" all of the new help. Of course the owners would probably lose 25 million and of course in a salary cap world it just can't be done. The star system was a 110% failure. I think of a guy like Mike Fisher for Ottawa, a career 50 point guy who is invaluable to that team. Those are the guys we lacked because of the top heavy contracts. The year we won the cup Capt. Dave and Tim Taylor didn't put up any numbers at all but were huge parts of the team. They were our best penalty killers and Brad and Vinny and Marty actually got to play 19 minutes of offense. I think present management has done what they had to do. They had to get more bodies in the house. They got rid of about 5 guys who were over matched in the NHL. I really think we have taken huge strides. Anyway, just me. I would never disrespect anyone by turning personel. Never. I hope that is respected by all on the blog. Someday I would like to share a Kool Aid with everyone. Black Cherry for me!!

[PD]

Your right Ajax I'm an idiot for trying.

[ajax]

Like I said, Richards is better than all 6 of the other forwards we brought in. That is your straw??
And you brush over Smith vs. Homer? Fine with me but Smith showed more in 20 games than Homer and Denis did in two years. At least he can stand up.
We got proven D that played on very good teams but somehow they are overpaid washed up 23 year olds. I find it amazing that Mezzy and Carle are mentioned in the same breath with Picard. Amazed. Proven players with solid resumes versus "Potential"
Does everyone know that this amazing prospect Picard is actually "older" then the washed up Mezzy who played 21 minutes a night in the Stanley Cup finals just two years ago at the ripe old age of 21?? And oh yeah Carle is 9 months older than the hot prospect "Picard" who I will remind everyone til the day I die, was in the AHL last year. I guess Philly and Tampa are both dummies for letting this "lightning in a bottle player go" Talk about crazy explanations??
And you stick to the Richards is better than all. You mean all by himself he is better than all of those other guys combined??? Really??? No one else we lost will probably even play 100 minutes in the NHL this year, so your argument is that Richards is better than all other 6 guys we picked up?? Seriously??
Malone and Vrbata both had 27 goals last year. Richards has never had 27 goals even when playing with fellow Olympians.
You say, Our forwards are worse as a group this year versus last year because we lost Richards, yet picked up two 27 goal scorers last year, a 16 goal scorer, another 20 goal scorer, and we also have Stamkos. But we are playing revolving chairs because we lost Brad Richards??? Arty versus Mcdonald or Roy or Ward?? The guy who is 12th this year probably would of been playing on the second line last year with Brad?? Your opinion of the superstarness of one Brad Richards is not shared by many in the hockey community. Sorry, checkmate.
My only thought on this conversation is " to the bitter end" GBY.

[PD]

Strawman again Ajax. Either way Stamkos is here so drop him from your comparison. But nice try

Darche, Karlsson, McDonald, Roy and Ward, pathetic agreed but all Feaster could aford with a much smaller budget.

Boyle was hurt, sht happens but he is one of the best defencemen in the game. Heads and tails over anything currently here. Gone leaving AHL defence with no top 2 quality guys and no depth.

Brad Richards gone, heads and tails better than any/all of our pickups,a premier NHL star and key to PP.
Recchi and Roberts 40+yr plus guys , please Ajax
Halpern..3rd liner, who after 2 major knee surgeries may never be back but not a factor either way.
Vrbata..who?
Malone servicable forward but with offensive contract and didn't come with Malkin..too bad
Arty ?? again please.

Goal,very old declining pro and totally unproven backup who went 3-11 with us to finish up.

Something else you gloss over, last years team had budget that was a fraction of what Koules has blown.

So You really think that makes it Ajax?

Do stay tuned.

[ajax]

Here is what we lost from last years team:
Forwards: Richards, Darche, Karlsson, McDonald, Roy and Ward (essentially we lost Richards, my opinion only) The other 5 have always been a sad reminder of how far we sank. None of them belonged with us or anyother NHL club and that has now been rectified rather nicely, T-you.
Defense: Boyle (remember he missed 2/3 of the season though) Lukowich Kuba Janik and Picard
Goalie: Homer (was that a giggle)
Here is what we now have as replacements:
Forwards: Stamkos, Malone, Helpern, Vrbata, Roberts, Recchi, and Arty.
Defense: Mezzy, Carle, and Hutchinson
Goalie: Smith
The forward improvement is like from an F to at least a B.
The Defense is probably not an improvement, but I have to say this very clerly and slowly "we didn't have Boyle for over 50 games so, yes it would be better "with Boyle here this year", BUT without a doubt it will also be better than the 6 that suited up for 55 games last year.
And needless to say I think they are going to get some more D and the forwards won't get knocked down that much as we have at least 2-3 proven NHL players to offer as bait in a trade. (not trade bait like in the past, see Darche Ward Mcdonald ETC (gag/puke).
Goalie: For me I can't even discuss this, it is such an improvment. Homer was a 30 year old rookie (career minor leaguer in my opinion)
We were the worse team in the league last year playing our best players til they bled thru the nose. Without playing those guys every other shift we might of won only 20 games (see last 20 games when they mailed it in and we lost 3 out of every 4 by a landslide) We had 8 forwards and 4 Dmen. We will have 12 forwards this year and yes the D is still a work in progress. The backstop is lite years better.
But to some, we have just played musical chairs. You can only state that, in my silly opinion, if you thnk Brad Richards is better than Stamkos Vrbata Malone etc etc all by himself. And I will remind you all, Brad got a hall pass from everyone because he couldn't do "it" all by himself. Not one of the other forwards we lost can even be apart of this conversation, can they???
Be as negative as you want. The guys we lost will never be seen again in the NHL. The guys that don't make the roster this year will be picked up by other clubs, a sure sign that our depth has improved dramatically.
Time will tell, this koolaid drinker looks at the resumes of what was here, versus what is here now and sees real NHL hockey players versus 30 year old rookie European drifters. Sometimes I feel I am reading that certain people would rather have Richards, Kuba and Boyle, versus Mezzy Carle Smith Helpern Joki Vrbata Stamkos Roberts Arty etc etc. because that is the real net/net of the roster changes. I like the Black Cherry Kool Aid the best.
Go Bolts Go!!!!

[PD]

Amen brother but still need those bums in the seats.

[Bolflasher]

PD, with revenue sharing and thanks to the bucks being brought in by the Canadian clubs, making the playoffs is not as necessary now to be in the black..so, we and several other clubs have the Leafs to thank for that...

[PD]

Steve R on assumption that Montreal, Caps and Rangers win their divisions that leaves 5 spots in the east.
I give the rest in no order to:
Philly
Ottawa
Buffalo
NJ
Pitt
Boston/Carolina knock on the door

We battle with Panthers for 3rd in SE

[PD]

Agreed Steve but lotsa teams have a shot at that.

[Steve R]

PD, I don't know about that. 93-94 points should get you into the seventh or eighth spot. I'm guessing that the winner of the SE will be cracking 100 points this year.

[PD]

Well Mike then you can see why all are so touchy about the perceived "improvement" of the club.

If they tank, then in this economy the seats will quicky be empty. At max cap they are already losing gobs of money on full house paid projections.

At least two playoff rounds would be needed to get close to black ink.
The only way to get to the playoffs in east will be to beat Wash for the SLeast. Rotsa ruck.

Fans here have been suckered enough since the cup years and hockey isn't any cooler than the Rays right now.

Anyone seen the seasons ticket numbers?

[Mike]

No joke PD! Tried to find a flight to section 301 but Airtran is booked and Spirit Airlines doesn't fly there :). I hope the Bolts do well, but man, gotta get a second mortgage on the house to go to a game.

[Beau]

Guess the new owners have to find a way to compensate for all the spending they are doing.

[PD]

Not to worry Mike , it won't be long to the 2 for 1's and 3 for 1's in the ticket booth.
Unfortunately watered down beer will still be 10 bucks

[PD]

Leo, loads of insecurity here, if you don't drink the koolaid then you be a hater buddy.

Don you are taking a few isolated comments from a blog and extrapolating that as mixed opinions. You never did source it but when last checked the response was totally akin to the HN article Leo referenced.

Lets move on.

[Mike]

I wouldn't worry too much about an "enforcer," with the over inflated ticket prices, getting fans to attend the games should be a bigger worry. Holy crap! 49 bucks for $8 seats? Crazy man, just crazy!

[léo]

Ouch, Don.
Don't tell Gareth or Curtis that. "Sinking ship"? I don't know if I'd go THAT far about Ottawa but uhhh...cool!
PD,
TB finished last. I am CONVINCED they will not finish last this year. Ergo: they will be better.
Twiney,
I hope I'M not the other "hater" in your scenario. I don't hate anybody...except the Flyers.
But hey, that's normal.
P.

[Don in St. Pete]

PD, You're misquoting me or twisting what I said. What I said was that there were a lot of people posting that the Sens will not make the playoffs after trading Mez. The Ottawa Sun, the Hockey News, TSN and others all show mixed feelings about the trade. One blogger in paricular pointed out that Mez didn't want to come back to the Sens and was to quote " fleeing the sinking ship ".

[PD]

Gee Twhiner..Vezina Goalie in the wings
Who knew?
We have lost Richards and Boyle.Have no proven goalie and likely the leagues worst defence.

Ok, I'll bite..SE champs (sic)

[Steve R]

Twinebulge

"even with a playoff proven, All-Star, Vezina-level goaltender in the wings"

Olie's all-star Vezina-level goaltending days are a distant memory. Hopefully for you guys he gets a lot of rest between starts & isn't called on to take a primary role.

[Twinebulge]

PD wrote: "The current team is a shell of what could have been. Its different but far from better" [sic]

"Far from better"? So in other words, even after all the acquisitions, even with additional talent like Ryan Malone and Steven Stamkos, even with a playoff proven, All-Star, Vezina-level goaltender in the wings, this team will finish 30th out of 30 again.

Well, that makes one person in the entire hockey world who thinks the Bolts will finish in last place. (For the record, there is probably no way they'd have ever done that again even with the old coach, GM, all the old players and no Stamkos.) We all respect varying opinions, but it's hard to see how this last-place assessment doesn't basically disqualify this guy from ever being taken seriously in any future discussions. Is he really that nearsighted, or just a rabid Lightning hater like what's-his-name?