Long way down

Snow is blanketing the Denver area again - stunner - as the Lightning prepares to disembark for the third and final game of a so-far frustrating road trip. The team outplayed Minnesota for large swathes of a 4-2 loss on Friday but appeared to sleepwalk through almost 50 minutes of a 4-3 defeat by the Avalanche last night. A power play goal by rookie Steven Stamkos - who has arguably been the Lightning's best player recently - highlighted a spirited last five minutes, but it was not enough to placate interim coach Rick Tocchet, who asserted - stone-faced - that the NHL is a results-oriented business and he needed to get some soon. He alluded to changes - whatever changes he can make within the roster structure - and that it is likely to get "miserable" around a team that has lost four straight.

Happy Thanksgiving. Pass the misery.

Comments

[Patrick]

Heh,

I used to think the Chief wasn't the best announcer either. But then I just accepted him and now he cracks me up half the time. I remember him getting frustrated when only one assist was awarded on a lightning goal at the forum, saying "they hand out assists like they're gold coins." Hearing him go off on the refs usually is pretty funny too, even when it's a good call. Forget objectivity, but I do enjoy listening to him now. He's definitely a part of the team as far as I am concerned.

[hockeytalkie]

bill

actually i've heard Chief make those kinds of observations too. in fact he's quite astute (as you'd hope) on the science of goaltending technique. he also recognizes those very slight redirects of shots better/quicker than most color guys based on how the G reacts. and, yes he's quite approachable in person. but beyond that i find him a worthless tool of the organization.

in his defense though, "not being a tool" is what got Larry Hirsh fired. he was unwilling to drink Phils kool aid and that was that. as i recall the comment that did him in was something about "sitting in a car with 4 flat tires and replacing only the battery" :-) maybe the chief doesnt want to be looking for work at this time so he just keeps selling the kool aide

[Mike13]

The only thing I dislike about Bobby Taylor (aside from the fact that he was a Flyer) is when he complains about the refs.

[hyjyljyj]

OK so the team is out of it right now but that's no reason to cannibalize the Chief. There's nobody who is universally liked, but speaking solely for my wife and me (apparently), he's a great personality, a very nice guy in person, almost as knowledgeable about hockey as random schlubs posting to a local newspaper's web log, and we get a lot out of his input and experience. Not to take anything away from how fun it is to pretend we know everything already, but when Chief says something like "OK stop it right here. See how the goalie is square to the shooter but not to the PUCK? That slight difference in angle puts him at a disadvantage, esp. since Pouffiasse is a right-handed shot. But again, this goal is a direct result of controlling that neutral zone, as we see here..." we get a lot of insight out of that kind of stuff. The game goes by too quickly to notice all those little things--at least for us casual fans

[leo]

MikeP,
You wanted to give US the 2nd rounder???
Good golly. Now I understand how the Boyle/Carle trade happened.
MikeP,
You're my friend, ok? So I don't have any trouble in this case saying that YOU'RE CRAZY! Don't do that deal! Buddy! Snap out of it!
Plecanec = Fast. Smart. Good eye. Good shot. Hustle. Not so big. And right now: deer in the headlights. Easily replaced with Ben Maxwell (or Kyle Chipchura, the mucker, the captain).
Higgins. Speed. Extreme hustle. Some hands. Some grit. A recuperator extraordinaire. Unsmart. LORD of the empty-net-miss and the post-hit. Lord, I say. Easily replaced with D'Agostini, Pacioretty or heck, Desharnais even. (I kid you not.)
Dandy = Reliable defensively as num5. Reliable offensively on 3rd or 4thline. Decent shot. Extreme speed. Unbig. Unintimidating. Need I list who We can easily replace him with? (No, not McDonaugh...not yet)
In exchange for which we clear cap space AND acquire the quintessential Centre of Our dreams. That it?
MikeP. My friend.
If you got clout, I say give Kouliwood a call, but Mikey, c'mon.
McGuire on the radio today was still going on about the Boyle/Carle thing. Apparently, Dan had a good night recently. He won't let it go.
So if you trade Us Vinny for those three, now?
That'll truly kill yehs.
P.

[Oscar]

Ah Coach Bill, I hate to admit but you may be right about the absence of whupa$$ in MSL’s clubhouse swagger.

OR, or, or….he is classy enough to yield to our poster boy, Vinny.
It used to be the Brad and Vinny Show, with Marty hustling all around and making up for the gaps in their Space Cadet shifts of nonproductive waft.
Too classy to horn in and steal thunder (no ten inpunded…) from the Golden Boys of the Franchise, he just kept working hard on a club notorious for being outworked.

But I only speculate with admitted prejudice, that if Marty were a “made man” and given the C by virtue of the fact that he’s the last one to show quit, he might incite. His shorthanded goal totals are Exhibit A.
That smacks of a ‘follow me’ leader.

You may be right though, he may lack that little something that leaders acquire.
Few leaders are born; most good ones are made after countless tasks of being a good follower.
That’s more like Marty, not Vinny.

Someone mentioned Recchi and I’m not at all comfortable there.
Halpern? Nah. Maybe after Vinny is gone and we start over from scratch....ouch!

I think Fedotenko has more in his jock than Vinny or Brad.

I’d prefer an old time Bolt with mettle.
An old time Bolt? How can we get Hamrlik away from Leo’s clutches? LOL.

Seriously, pick your hardest worker and he'll be danged if he'll let somebody slack off all the time. (Is V$ our hardest worker?)

The added responsibility might have been the needed invisible something to perk up Gratton. Ya know?

Regrets about the 18th. My Lady is reading the graduation names at the community college that night and I’ll have to dvr the game. Next year…

Go Bolts!

[PD]

Heh Ajax on Vinny vs Cap you have been consistent for a long time and I'm in agreement with you as was Bear.

I don't think for a second though that V4 is Burkies kind of guy and not at those dollars.

Leafs are waiting to grab Toronto boy Rick Nash in 2010 and he won't cost them near 10 as good as he is.

Montreal is your only hope and the sooner the better.

[PD]

Steve on Albatross Malone. They overpaid to get him by at least half mill a year but the real problem is the 6 year term. That will be a tough one to dump especially when the cap crashes.

StevR
http://www.toronto.ca/attractions/attraction_highlights.htm
Lots of Links

The Buffalo/Toronto Bills are Playing Miami the day after the Caps game right next door at the Rogers Centre on 4PM Sunday. Roof should be closed I would think but the crazy Bills fans think that favors the Fins.

Raptors play at home on the following Wed.

If he wants a bit of the ballet , then its For Your Eyes Only on Front street, wink wink.

[Patrick]

Coach Bill,

I think St Louis would be better with the C than Vinny. St Louis at least hustles and battles consistently. But who else then? Someone suggested Recchi which doesn't sound bad based on the way he's played. I would guess the ideal would be Halpern, based on how he played last year... cept, he's still weeks away apparently. Maybe that would be a good time to swap it, real quick, like Vinny was just keeping it warm while Halpern was injured, right?

[ajax]

I am only interested in helping our franchise today and tomorrow. That is why I would trade VL4 to Toronto or Montreal and reap the bonanza. We do not have megabuck owners so every penny has to be spent wisely. 10 million could plug alot of holes. Vinny goes 40/60/100, good for him. Good for Danny. Good for Brad. We are in no shape with young players. After losing gobs this year, somehow I don't see the owners going $$$$ crazy this off season. Soooooo how they going to fix the gaping holes at the blue line??? I once read about three years ago an article said that the salary cap would actually make the rich teams stronger. They didn't even know about the economic slo down at the time of print. How is Pitts possibly going to keep Malkin and Crosby?? Either they won't or they will will a slew of minimum wage players. Luckily for them they have a farm system. How is Washington going to compete?? They better all have owners willing to lose lots of dough to keep winning versus the big money teams. We have no miracles coming out of Norfolk folks, thank-you Jay Feaster. Paying VL4 10 million was absurd when the world actually had money. Sell him while he is hot before you have to beg someone to take him at a severe discount. Great headlines have been our calling card. Now make great business decisions.

[Mike13]

PD, we agree on the Chara thing.

Hey Steve R, Toronto's not too far away from Niagra if SombreroGuy whats to make the drive. They should but I somehow doubt that they serve Molson at the HHOF. Also, they have a Medieval Times not too far from the CN Tower (too far to walk though) if he's looking for an entertaining meal. I believe that there is still a Hard Rock Cafe at the dome.

[Oscar]

One thing of which I can be certain, this club no longer has the look of a Melrose coached mob. We must and will improve and I for one will work on my instant gratification thing.
Hang in there and go for what you know there, Coach Tocchet!

The owners have got to more resemble Marshall Matt Dillon and Ben Cartwright than Festus Haggan and Hoss Cartwright, ya know?
(But put Hoss on skates….oh wait! We have R2KN!)

Hockeytalkie’s post made my day, wink, wink. Note the absence of an intellectual dip, whilst reading. Beautiful, Man.

Yes, it is obvious we need (the loser---HA! What morons post here!) Jeff Halpern to return ASAP. But not before he’s ready and able to absorb the punishment from which he seldom shies away.
Another tough, dedicated guy to have around, like Halpie, is John Madden. Hard to imagine us getting outworked with those two firing up the line mates on and off the ice.

I like the pipe dream (now, put down that pipe…) of Bouwmeester in our sweater. At risk of sounding like a broken rec…..er, scratched CD, bring in both he and Denis Potvin and we get tougher to play against.

Still can’t befrickinlieve the Stinkers got Tarnasky, the only Bolt that scared them.

You know, if Vinny Starbucks can’t hack it as a leader and only a glamour scorer, would he still want to stay here? The TEAM needs leadership. If he’s man enough to stand down as a feckless Captain (twice) and let someone like Halpern or St. Louis lead the charge and wear the C, then he should be happy staying and scoring and WINNING.

My two cents, worth diddley on today’s economy or any other, I admit. :o)

Go Bolts!

[hockeytalkie]

malone and m.a. fleury were the bright spots on those dismal Pens teams pre-Crosby. so i kind of expected no less from him here. he knows all about working his way up from the cellar.

[Steve R]

PD, a buddy is going up to Toronto to catch the Leafs vs Caps. On his list to do aside from the game is to go to the HOF and the CN tower. Any other sights you'd recommend?

[Steve]

PD, why do you think Malone's contract is so bad, the hit is $4.5 per year, so I wouldn't really call it albatross contract for a 29 year old power forward who will score 20+ goals a year, and plays physical. And yes, he is even on pace for 20+ goals this year as well, without Crosby/Malkin around.

[PD]

Sens biggest mistake was not resigning Chara

[Steve]

Your right BoltFlasher, very similar to the Ducks. As far as the Sens management not being dysfunctional, that statement is laughable. They have had the worst locker room in the league for years and hasn't their GM also been their head coach multiple times? He (Murray) is also the one that has masterminded the salary cap trouble they are in. I would agree they do have a good owner, but that will only get you so far.

[Steve]

Ottawa certainly has a lot of things in common with us or issues we used to have, from having a lot of their money tied up in three players to not being able to find a goalie. Their defense has also taken a real hit over the past couple of years. It reminds me of us a couple of years ago hoping the big 3 could provide at least one more playoff run even with a bad defense and poor goaltending. I'm guessing they are going to have to at least move Spezza and possibly others either this year or during the summer.

[Boltflasher]

I disagree on their management...they bungled themselves into the same situation as the Dolts...

[PD]

Flasher apt on ice comparison with Sens

Off Ice no comparison. Melnyk has billions and their managment isnt dysfunctional.

[PD]

Hij 28 other teams are not coveting Lecaliers contract..read the front page economic news.

[PD]

Steve its never going to happen but what you suggest is way too much back.

Number 1 Tampa should be happy to get rid of his contract first and fore most. The cap is crashing down in two years and Bolts are saddled with two albatross contracts his and Malones.

The Canadiens would obviously need to ship out a center, that would be Plekancic

They are going all out for a cup because most of their team is UFA or RFA next year so Komo a key piece would be a non starter

[Boltflasher]

Interesting article on Ottawa from Daniel Tolensky, "Is Ottawa the new Tampa?"....I'm sure that they'll enjoy that comparison up there in Sens land...

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Daniel-Tolensky/Is-Ottawa-the-new-Tampa/51/18140

[Steve]

hyjyljyj, I will assume you are not referring to my post as I said in my post I was not saying we should trade Vinny, I was just commenting on the ridiculous trade already posted by others above, but thanks for imparting your wisdom into this conversation.

[Boltflasher]

Good post hockeytalkie!

[hyjyljyj]

This team is doing poorly.

So, to fix it, we should get RID of our highest skilled player--the player coveted by 29 other teams who has been our leading scorer in past seasons and is again the team's points leader right now.

Only here can you find such cutting edge insight and hockey wisdom

[Steve]

Regarding the earlier TB/MTL trade of
Higgy, Plecky, Dandy and a 2nd round draft pick for Vinny, I'm sure Montreal fans and non-Lightning fans would love that trade, a superstar for 2 second line players, a throw in, and a 2nd round pick, I think the Bruins might have even done better than that when they traded Thornton?

Now if you really want Vinny, and I'm not suggesting we should trade him, we will take Higgins, Komisarek, McDonagh and a 1st rounder.

[hockeytalkie]

vott, ajax, et al

one of you talked about about having players who WANTED to be here and not just skating to p/up a check. does anyone in this blog believe that DB22 WANTED TO LEAVE OR WANTED TO STAY? i think he was quite clear on his stance.

having said that, i'm sure he's happier to be playing on a contender now and i do agree that w/all the dead weight on the roster that his presence would probably only translate to maybe a couple more wins so far. but it seems to me that a guy who WANTS to play here and has 20/40 potential on the blue line is a good place to start building from. get the mad D skills from the other 3 of your top 4.

for example, when dudley brought in andrechuk he wasnt thinking 20 goals (that was the bonus) he was thinking face-off, pp goals and locker room. a guy who WANTS to play here is good for the locker room, esp one with pride.

to those who suggested that he'd be leading our team in scoring...
idiots! when is a D-man (other than Bobby Orr) ever your leading scorer? -no disrespect to stevens and leetch intended- when 22 had all of his most productive years, where was he in scoring? ...no higher than 4th and that was only once. ajax and the others are right. as much O as he might provide to any team his numbers will always be relative to his forwards and particularly to to his fwds' pp numbers.

as sorry as i was to see BR19 go (it was time to end the fab4), i never felt for a minute that we didn't get great value out of the trade. the same cannot be said for the SJS trade or the OTT deal -kuba for meszaros straight up would have been good. as for torts, i looked at it this way, had the original sale gone through in nov/dec last year, torts would ABSOLUTELY have been fired at the end of season. so i'm fine with that one too. unfortunately, we'll never know if a pp of DB, VL4, MStL, Malone and Recci would have clicked. i'm not (by a long shot) suggesting that we'd be in first, but if something like that were to bring us UP TO AVERAGE, then we'd all be talking about "what's the next piece of the puzzle to ad" instead of "where do we start"

as far as what we have out there at the moment, i said 2 weeks ago that we'd be watching training camp redeux until just before x-mas and i stand by that. sure this season is over, but that doesn't mean we can't ruin a few other teams' easter plans as well. who knows Halpurn's return, whenever that is, might be the first piece. a good agitator never hurt a bad to mediocre team.

i guess that's the neg and pos rolled together into a slightly less-turd-stained TBL jersey. sadly this market has been filled w/frontrunner fans from the beginning with idiotic suggestions, so i mostly ignore them. they're the same "tom mccewn lemmings" that suggested the rays get a line up of tino martinez, radke, mcgriff, schefield and every other local b-ball product as a way to boost attendance. tbl will always be my team, but fri and sat night were just hard to watch. and to those who suggest i/we only be positive, as a season ticker holder for ALL 16 seasons i've earned the right to be negative when the owners put out an inferior product or the players give a lack-luster effort.

[PD]

Ajax I actually enjoyed your spiel today, and honestly felt your angst.

Vinny is not going anywhere with that contract, you can sleep well. Just joshin with the shab.

I couldn't be happier Burke is aboard, as you know, I have thought it a fait acomplit for a year but a huge bonus with the timing.

The guy just excudes the confidence of a winner.
Sundin isn't part of what's happening here. He screwed the Leafs last year by not accepting a trade but certainly that was his right.

My guess ? Burke clears out quite a few by year end and may be quite happy, short term, with a top 5 pick.

He has a good chunk of a young extremely fast, competing team in place.

If you have a minute, this is a prety good interview with Burke just after he took over.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/?bcpid=1766638651&bclid=1753282865&bctid=3516710001

[mike p]

Leo, I checked it out and it does even out. And actually I meant we give you a 2nd round pick, but w/e.

[ajax]

VL4 ain't givin it up or gettin it takin away from him. R u guys smokin weed or what. Any of the scenarios above are a mistake, compounding the original mistake. Some of you are smart cookies, and yet you see VL4 walking into the office and throwing the C on the desk?? Or ask VL4 in 4 a nice glass of wine and they ask for it back?? Stop the silliness boys. PD you hate VL4, so you are tossed on any VL4 discussions going forward. Biased is a terrible thing to live with. By the way, PD, you have got to be at least a tad humbled knowing Sundin has basically told Burke he has no interest in finishing his career in Toronto. Ouch. If VL4 tires of the merry go round here in Tampa anytime soon, Mats Sundin will instantly become a smaller fish in his own little pond. VL4 would bring in the haul of a lifetime. Toronto would take him in a split second seeing they are actually hooked up to the Canadian mint it seems. Vinny with some D that can actually play the position would be back on pace for another 100 point season overnight. With the world the way it is, no moolah, and a small market etc etc, I would so welcome a trade. I know, everyone says we would lose the face of the franchise and everyone would fall on their swords, but reality says these owners aren't of Walton lineage and I am 110% sure we could get a proven Mezzy type D, another Malone type F, and probably at least two number ones. Get rid of the old guys, play for next year and watch the whole attitude of the club get energized a bit. I will say this until I die. When your forwards have to be 7 feet in front of the goalie to help a feeble D6, it is impossible to get any offense going. If we get frustrated with the team barely able to get the puck out of our zone every single night, don't think Captain America isn't tired of it. Just how tired will he get?? They spent their wad on Forwards, how we gonna get the real help we need?? Look at Ottawa: despite the silliness of what PD says. They have three all-star forwards and they are worse 5/5 then we are if you can believe that. I read where Ottawa has dressed 10 different Dmen this year. They are having a tough time breaking out of their zone, sound familiar. You would think with all world Kuba and Picard they would win the cup hands down. Har Har. Ottawa has 31 even strength goals in 22 games, that is almost impossible to comprehend with the studs up front they have. But no D means no transition, means long year. By the way, I think we have dressed 12 Dmen so far. Rats we lost Hutchinson yesterday. I thought he was the holy grail!!! The minus 5 in two games might of been a hint.

[leo]

Mike and PD,
Deal!
Higgy, Plecky, Dandy and a 2nd round draft pick. I even think the caps even out!
Patrick, you be quiet.
P.

[PD]

BB V$ would love to get out of Dodge.

[PD]

Brendan I stand to be corrected but I believe the guy is paid by the team much as Damian is through the Times.

Don't be looking for objectivity beacause your getting marketing spin.

[Badbud]

If they take the C from Vinny (Again) it will mean the end is near for Vinny in Tampa, and with the "Cowboys" as owners,that might NOT be a Bad thing FOR VINNY.

[brendan]

Guys, I know that this is a bit off topic, but I feel that Bobby the Chief Taylor iS the worst color commentator in hockey. It is just brutal listening to this guy. Sometimes I wonder what game he is watching. Anybody else have any thoughts or opinions on this guy?

[PD]

Playing with good players would have a big part but top teams know how to bring in good players which is what makes them good teams.

[Patrick]

I agree with most the posts here that Vinny is not the leader of the team. Maybe he's trying to force the coach to remove it from him. That's his only flaw, and no reason to trade him. Just give the C to someone else, like Marty, or Recchi as was suggested. Vinny will probably suggest it to the coach himself pretty soon if they don't do it on their own.

Leo,
I wouldn't trade you Vinny, period. You don't trade franchise players.

[Boltflasher]

Funny, how things are relative on a given team...Boyle's 21 points would make him the leading scorer on either TB or Mtl but only 5th on SJ. Does that 21 points mean he's better than any Montreal player or...that he's playing well on a good team with good players playing better as a team than other teams?

[PD]

That works too Mp

[mike p]

Leo, Plekanec, Higgins, and Dandenault for Vinny and a 2nd round pick...yes or no?

[PD]

Replace Lang with say MacDonaugh (sp) and I'd grab it.

[leo]

Ok.
Give ya Lang, Plecanec, Josh Gorges and a 1st round draft pick for Vinny.
This is good stuff but we have to put Lang in the deal for positional cap-space at centre.
Yes or no?
P.

[PD]

A million theories but the players should look around the room and figure it out.
No way they should be at the bottom, but same could have been said last year and 30th spot.

A team with MSL and V$ just isn't the worst team in any league.

They aren't a playoff team either but should at least be in the hunt.

Its pathetic and I point at Vinny as a leader and dysfuctional meddling mgmt.

[PD]

Flash, Luke was signed by Ottawa as a coach as soon as he cleared waivers.
He will be a good one

[Ben bolt fan]

If #26 for Boumeaster would be fine by me.
Personally throw in Ranger for taking an interferance whith the team down 4-3. He has been this teams worst blue liner all year long. Eminger has been a better player in less time. He does very well on PP and at least will hit someone without taking penalty.
Has been fun watching Downie play in two games. I think this team still needs a fighter and trading away OBrian was a BIG mistake. Downie gave a great effort but was clearly overmatched.
I cannot find any stats on the new guy. Another qaulity move by the cowboys!!!
This team out of 23 games has only scored three goals or more 11 times. The main reason is they suck on the PP. This were the game has gone to with the destruction of 5-5 skating. If you cannot do well in special teams you will be at the bottom just like Dallas stars.

[Da Boltz]

We traded the Dallas Stars for a nobody and we are still in the same boat. Why not trade Vrbata for a strong vet D-man or even some1 who can actually clear faceoffs in our zone. Kolzig had no D at all that is why we went down 3-0 in the 1st. The Lightning are in a bad area right now and I think they might get stupid and trade Marty. We need D right now not another forward!!!!!

[Boltflasher]

Regarding effort, Mike Smith summed it up after yesterday's game: "We were flat to start and it's embarrassing," Smith said. "I don't think there's been more than one game this season in which we've shown up for all 60 minutes and that's mental and that's the frustrating part about it. You look around the room and we are a good team, but you are only as good as you are on the ice so until we start proving it on the ice, we won't be a good team."
(as per http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/nov/30/300044/sp-late-bolts-effort-comes-up-short/sports-lightning/)

[Danger]

Hey, some really good posts on here about the true root of this teams inability to win games right now, and that's the charecter of the players. Rather then dig themselves out of the rut that thier in they seem content to just wallow in the basement of the league. You can tell by thier body langue and intensity out there. When they get behind rather then muster up that little bit of extra effort and intensity needed, they look like they seem to just sit back and wait for the loss. And that hurts the fans. Seeing your team go out and give it all but come up short doesn't feel half as bad as watching your team play uninspired, hockey with no heart. Like VOTT said the cup team wasn't the best team ever assembled but they banded together and made it happen, and it's a shame because even though this years team is no cup contender, they ARE better than they're record suggests.

[Nan]

It sure would be nice if someday, like next game would be good, we fans could watch 60 minutes of effort by this team and not just 15 or 20 minutes. I could handle a loss better if they played a solid 60 minutes of hockey for a change. What is happenning is not acceptable.

While Vinny does have some responsibility as team captain to turn this team around and the effort should begin with him, I think that he has been playing better lately and is trying. Hey Danger, let's just hope that Vinny isn't tired of pulling this team because he will be doing the same this year. Then again, as a top point scorer in the league, that is expected, even with a bum shoulder!

Agree with you Joe, it starts with the defense. If they play better, then the offense generally comes. Also they need to work on not taking so many stupid penalties. You can't score if you are in the box! This group has a lot to work on! It isn't just lack of effort.